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#765289 - 10/29/09 11:01 PM
Do Click Tracks Stink???
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david Leinweber
Casual Observer
Registered: 08/18/09
Posts: 40
Loc: georgia
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I've done some nice stuff using clicks (and our engineer virtually insists on it). However, I also think they tend to limit inuitive tempo changes that a great live-band might have, and they also tend to flatten the playing.
A lot of older recordings have a great feel and sometimes I think they wouldn't have sounded the same with a click-trac.
Also, I keep hearing that click tracks are virtually required by ProTools!!! Is that true?
Comments are so welcome!!!
David
Edited by david Leinweber (10/29/09 11:02 PM)
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#765293 - 10/29/09 11:47 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: david Leinweber]
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Mark Kaufman
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 09/25/07
Posts: 5927
Loc: Minneapolis
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I think "it depends".
We spent decades trying to find perfect timing, and now that we have it, we consider it robotic. So now there is drum software with a "Humanize" function that screws up the timing just a tad.
But I think a click track is usually the way to go. You can achieve feel and swing by the dynamics of your playing. Sometimes it's best to record a live band without a click, or a guitar/vocal performance.
But the click isn't being recorded...the playing is. You can still mess with the beat by strumming just a bit ahead of it or behind it to give it a sense of rush or lag. I'd say 90% of the time, the click doesn't stink at all. It's your friend.
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#765467 - 10/30/09 12:17 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: Mark Kaufman]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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I am with Mark....Freeform performances by a band or individual when recorded live are great and no click track is needed or should be used as it loses the live feel especially with ad libs thrown in etc. That said when a work is being layered piece meal and built up using Midi or VST loops etc then a click track is essential. The different parts have to mesh and fit perfectly to the beat therefore the tempo must be constant and spot on. Sadly I have not met any drummers or other musicians who can play freeform and match a strict tempo spot on without the need for a click track. In fact a lot of them play to a click track when laying down a part and use it as a tool to keep perfect time albeit only in their head. That does not mean that they have to play like a robot.
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#765477 - 10/30/09 12:50 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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John Lawrence Schick
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 12/14/08
Posts: 4178
Loc: PA
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As Jim said; an essential when layering.
In Logic Pro, when using a click track, I don't think of it as beats in a measure. It's just a continuing beat at “X” number of bpm. Often I hang an extra beat or two/three in measures. I'll go by feel. Also, I've trained myself to ignore the click during ritards, accelerandos, or free cadenza-type episodes. Too lazy to turn the click off.
Anyway, thank goodness for the click track. It would add hours to the recording session without it.
John 
_________________________
Stop analyzing; just compose the damn thing!
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#765479 - 10/30/09 12:54 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: John Lawrence Schick]
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John Lawrence Schick
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 12/14/08
Posts: 4178
Loc: PA
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"Sadly I have not met any drummers or other musicians who can play freeform and match a strict tempo spot on without the need for a click track" - Jim
It's been years since I've used "live" drummers in the studio. In those bygone days there were a limited number of drummers that could play/record to a click. I guess it's different today.
John
_________________________
Stop analyzing; just compose the damn thing!
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#765492 - 10/30/09 01:56 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: John Lawrence Schick]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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John....not much has changed.... LOL.... lots of guys cannot play to a click it messes with their mind....those that do have to be admired. It is a bit like patting your head and rubbing your chest at the same time......few can pull it off. I suppose learning how to cope with clicks is all just part of the learning curve and down to experience.
I know a few drummers most are pretty good by anybody's standards but keeping metronome time needed to layer is all but impossible.....love em or hate em clicks are necessary.
Personally singing with or without a click does not bother me either way I still sing out of time regardless.
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#765494 - 10/30/09 02:08 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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John Lawrence Schick
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 12/14/08
Posts: 4178
Loc: PA
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It would probably make it easier to lay a simple quantized snare and kick down for the drummer with the click. The drummer may be a little disappointed though when it's removed. 
John
_________________________
Stop analyzing; just compose the damn thing!
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#765506 - 10/30/09 03:21 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: John Lawrence Schick]
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Joe Wrabek
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 6178
Loc: Garibaldi, OR USA
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I have used click tracks on occasion. One of the (few) things I use Audacity for is generating click tracks.
When I was recording stuff with the Internet band The Collaborators, we used click tracks all the time, to keep people in time. The click tracks were always deleted in the final mix, of course.
I am particularly bad myself at staying in time. i tend to speed up (guess I've played with too many drummers), and a click track tends to get in the way of my doing that. Since I'm after a live feel for nearly everything I record, I don't mess with click tracks. EXCEPT--if I'm sending a piece to someone else, who's going to record something extra to it (or vice versa--if I'm adding something to what someone else did), I will have a short click thing right at the beginning. (And then eliminate it in the rest of the song.)
The clicks help whoever's doing the mixing line things up; if you've got the clicks on every track, it is possible for a tone-deaf person like me to line things up *visually*, without caring what they sound like, and know for sure everything's in the right place.
So they have their uses.
Joe
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#765513 - 10/30/09 03:39 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: Joe Wrabek]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Joe what a great explanation.......I could have spoken all day about click tracks and never nailed it like you did....
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#765531 - 10/30/09 04:25 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: John Lawrence Schick]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Or you mean the whole song faster with the second half after the guitar solo at breakneck speed...LOL
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#765535 - 10/30/09 04:35 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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the songcabinet
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3390
Loc: Denmark
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I sometimes use a click track when recording guitar/vocal, but it tend to annoy me unless it's a hard song and it's really helping.
Mostly I use drum tracks as a time keeper, though. Way more fun!
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#766748 - 11/03/09 07:55 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: John Lawrence Schick]
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Mike Dunbar
JPF Mentor
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 8203
Loc: Nashville Tennessee
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Click tracks are a tool. Use them if and when you need them. I've heard them ruin a track and I've heard them save a track.
If I'm going to use a click, I like to let the drummer hear it, but not the rest of the band. Then we all play to the drummer. That gives us a better "band" feel.
Some folks play well to a click. I'm not too bad at it, it was forced on me in college. Back then we had wind up clicks called "metronomes." On my first recording session as a hired musician, they recorded a metronome and used that "track" for the click...hence, the "click track." We were using four tracks back then. With one for the click, that shows how important the producer thought the click was.
Some folks play well to a drummer. The cymbals, especially the hat, give a "cue" as to when the downbeat will hit. A good drummer may speed up and slow down a little, but it will be gradual, not so abruptly within a measure that it throws the musicians off like a mechanical bull.
But some folks can't play to either a click or a drummer. That's when the recording loses it's groove. When everyone plays to the click, it grooves. When everyone plays to the drummer, it grooves. When everyone plays to their own drummer, it gropes.
The advantage of using time, either in seconds or in measures, as a visual template for a musical wave file, is being able to manipulate the audio or midi. I've had clients who changed their mind as to whether the guitar lead should be in the second or third verse. If we didn't have a click track, the guitar part might not have just "dragged and dropped" from one verse to another. Then the client would have had to pay the guitar player to come back and cut again.
If you have trouble with a click track, double it up. Instead of putting the click on the quarter note, put it on the eighth note. Then it's easier to drop on the beat.
Here's a click trick I used a few years a go. We were recording a female vocalist. The client wanted a real jazzy vocal with very sparse whole note "diamonds" for the piano. The vocalist sounded uninteresting. I had the engineer put a click on that only the vocalist would hear. It was a swing beat. She sang to that and when we played it back without the click, her voice had a "swing" to it. The client loved it.
Clicks are tools. The way we use them can be good or bad.
_________________________
Anybody who’s made it will tell you, you can make it. Anyone who hasn’t made it will tell you, you can’t -John Mayer Success is simply a matter of luck. Ask any failure. -Earl Wilson It's only music. -niteshift Mike Dunbar Music
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#767445 - 11/06/09 11:53 AM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: Mike Dunbar]
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John W. Selleck
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/07/07
Posts: 3463
Loc: NJ
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I like using the "Real Drums" format on BIAB. You can select a style, BPM etc. and it will generate the # of bars needed with percussion changes from intro to V to C to Tag. You can even go in and change things you don't like. I only use it as a basic tool to get the idea of how I want it to feel to my studio guru. But it sure beats singing to click click click, at least for me.
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#767446 - 11/06/09 12:02 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: John W. Selleck]
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Mark Kaufman
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 09/25/07
Posts: 5927
Loc: Minneapolis
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Actually, I never use the actual "click"...I replace it with a natural-sounding drum sample that acts as the click.
I really can't play to BEEP! BEEP! BEEP! BEEP!... 
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#767459 - 11/06/09 12:48 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: Mark Kaufman]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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I think that is pretty universal we also use a simple drum pattern as a click. I too would be put off by a beeping electronic metronome. I am always forgetting to disable the clck on Cubase...LOL
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#768901 - 11/11/09 06:33 AM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: david Leinweber]
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Mike Caro Substudio
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 7782
Loc: NY
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I've done some nice stuff using clicks (and our engineer virtually insists on it). However, I also think they tend to limit inuitive tempo changes that a great live-band might have, and they also tend to flatten the playing.
A lot of older recordings have a great feel and sometimes I think they wouldn't have sounded the same with a click-trac.
Also, I keep hearing that click tracks are virtually required by ProTools!!! Is that true?
Comments are so welcome!!!
David
Hi Dave
You got GREAT answers here on the subject.
All I can add is that I eat the click track like PAC MAN!
I ALWAYS use a click track, 98% of the time
I use a hard unmusical sounding clanking click lol it does not phase me, I play with the same feel no matter what. This is because I'm used to it. And my body just wants to groove to anything.
Here are my basic rules
1- I HAVE to use a click when working alone or with individuals ONE at a time. This is often the case. The click is the map,besides if you don't use one your going out of time period.
How that works for you or how you feel about it is up to you.
The point Mike D and the others made about editing is HUGE and dead on. That click allows you take anything from anywhere.
2- I play live drums to a click, and I bring a handful of single one dollar bills into the studio and say "I'll give you a dollar for every time I go out of time and miss a beat" It usually costs me about a buck or two LOL...
But seriously the most important thing a drummer needs is timing.
It's like a clock. I can't tell you how many guys have come in telling me, oh this and that and they twirl there sticks, whip around the drums like lightning, bounce the stick off the snare and catch it.. Then I hit play the click comes in and they melt away like snow on the drum stool.
Those are often the same guys who say "I don't like Ringo at all he's nothing"
3- If a band or at least a drummer with a bass player and or one guitar player are tracking and the drummer is NOT comfortable using a click track it's GONE! It's much better to catch a natural right feeling take. Screw the click.
4- Use the drum machine with a simple beat if the click is too sterile to groove to. Then take it away later. Do this when tracking guitar etc.. Even drummers sometimes don't mind playing
along with one at all. It can interfere if it's too busy or he's trying to hear his footwork and the machines bass drum is banging away..
I don't care personally I just ignore it.
As a bass player and guitar player the adjustment to the click was pretty natural and easy. As drums are not my main instrument
adjusting to it with that was the HARDEST and here's why.
With the bass your fingers can make up time and space much easier when you commit to bringing your arm and or hand down on a cracking snare man there's no turning back LOL...
Here's how it goes at the beginning
You use a click
1- You lose all your cool stuff, as you struggle to just focus.
You realize you play out of time. Your fills are gone all your feel is history. You HATE it.
2- You start getting the hang of it but you still hear that loud click, still tentitive but you focus on the steady beat realizing every time you do fills you speed up.You become afraid to leave that snare.
Your moving slow, fast but you get a handle on it.
3- You now start getting some of your cool chops back but there IN TIME now this is cool. Your confidence grows but there's still something that's not sitting right. You are right on the beat but haven't developed enough confidence to play on top of it or behind it.
4- You STOP hearing the click! Your like into the second verse when you realize you don't really hear the click anymore.
One night my friend accidentally muted it on the mixing board.
I noticed about half way through the song that it wasn't there.
He said, "great take Mike" I said - "Not bad since there was no click" We checked it I went off in only two small spots.
I got my chops & feel back, can lay back or jump ahead, developed near perfect timing and can have someone send me a guitar only track with a click from anywhere online and i can send back a full live drum track.
Also I use NO programming so it's click and layer tracks live just like years ago.
What really helped my timing was
1- Being in a band for so long with great drummers
2- In the 80's playing & recording with a drum machine alot
3- Hitting the big studio's playing on dance music records
4- Just recording all the time
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#770927 - 11/17/09 02:35 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
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david Leinweber
Casual Observer
Registered: 08/18/09
Posts: 40
Loc: georgia
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Mike and all,
Hey, thanks for all the great replies on my question. I've used click tracks pretty succesffully myself, but as an old-school rock and country guy, I still think there were jams in the old days that had feels and tempo changes a click track would ruin. I'm not sure that Tumblin' Dice or Midnight Rambler would be the same with a click track driving the tempo, but maybe I'm just wrong. I do agree that for a lot of commercial and/or protools recording projects, the click track seems essential.
Thanks for all the great inputs!!!
David Leinweber
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#774168 - 11/27/09 07:00 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
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John Marnie
Serious Contributor
Registered: 12/26/08
Posts: 249
Loc: Barrington, NJ (US)
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Hey gang, I am a little late chiming in on this one, but better late than never.
Anyway, I blame Mike Caro for addicting me to the click track. Everything he has said above is true and more. When i came into his studio to record and heard the click in my ear, I became a lost puppy. But, I did not rebel against this disturbing machine, I embraced it. And somehow, he knew I would. I swear he's psychic.
I bought a stereo metro for only me to hear and introduced it to the whole band. My, my, did it straighten a lot of rhythm problems out and make the band much tighter. Mainly, because of my improved sense of timing.
I quickly got used to the sound of a click in my ear and found myself not even listening to it but right on the groove. When I did not use the click and it was off, I still heard it in my head and realized my sense of timing had become the click.
When there is a timing problem in a segment of a song it is either the drummer first, then the other musicians. I have found musicians way off the groove and I ask them to play behind the drums during that segment. They are amazed at how much time they have all of a sudden to go from one note to the other with long holes in between. Suddenly playing has become easy allowing for more intense dynamics and feel to the song.
I have brainwashed my band through the use of a solo click track in my ear only. And now, I have become their click track. It allows me to spot timing problems instantly and save time from playing the same part wrong, over and over again.
I test the band after the same song has been clicked for awhile. The transition from verse to chorus, bridge and back to verse again has become smooth and effortless without the use of a click track.
And that is the glory of using a click track. Once you get used to it, the clicking goes way into the background where it belongs and it becomes nothing more than an aid, like a sustain pedal or a wawa box or a cow bell. Using a click track is like learning how to play an instrument. It takes time and practice to get used to it and then it starts to become natural.
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#774520 - 11/28/09 09:06 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: John Marnie]
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mattbanx
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1384
Loc: Northern Minnesota
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I favor the emotiveness of of going by hand with all the instruments, even though I am no steady eddy.
I played around a lot with manufactured samples with the synths being my primary instrument before I was on the internet.
I know there are many made for hire performers that do samples.
I would prefer something played in to my recordings.
Live threads and instrument and voice music seems to be almost an alien concept on the internet now.
Didn't seem that way when I was first on internet sites in 2004.
A click track may be good to get something started to lead off a song.
But I prefer the realness of going without them.
Good topic!
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#774706 - 11/29/09 12:35 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: mattbanx]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Matt you need a ref point when multi recording....that is why people use clicks. Hard to punch anything in on the beat without one. Most guys I know could not record properly without one. They are all seasoned pros with great timing....so it should tell you something.
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#774866 - 11/29/09 09:19 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Paul Ryan
Serious Contributor
Registered: 09/29/09
Posts: 68
Loc: Toronto Canada
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My recordings are layered. I use the click and do find it awfully annoying. But I have a system now that works for me quite well. The material I do is acoustic country so when I do banjo, it can very easy to miss a beat at high speeds. So what I do now is to have the click on for track number one which is always a ghost track. On that track, I record a vocal and guitar, but the guitar only does the 4 beat downstrokes-no strum, and only the down beat. It serves as a "master track" and contains the correct beat, after which the original clicker is turned off. Then the initial layered track (bass or guit usually) plays to the ghost track. In a way it's really a substutute for a pure click track, but it's softer and more subtle. I have found you do play more like freeform when lining up with an instrument, even if it's just thump thump. It's subtle but you can really get into it more and the final product doesn't sound like a robot. For what it's worth....
Paul Ryan
http://www.ryantunes.com
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#774886 - 11/29/09 10:53 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: Paul Ryan]
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mattbanx
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1384
Loc: Northern Minnesota
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When I do anything on my .wav software or Audacity I have often looked at the screen to pinpoint the start or put in a small noise just milliseconds in front of the track and then delete it out.
I often like playing the overdubs all the way through a song.
But some arrangements can be trickier then others.
It gets too stiff and mechanical sometimes with click tracks because it gets too rehearsed.
And there does need to be that reference point.
I like to play behind a rythmn often too so there is not so much tightness.
Most like to be ahead in the count or right on it.
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#774897 - 11/29/09 11:24 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: mattbanx]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Hi Paul A click track does not have to be an actual click or electronic beep we use simple drum tracks GENERATED from the PC. It sounds just like drums but keeps perfect time. These are then replaced with a proper drum track if need be or enhanced to a proper full generated drum track with all the fills etc.
Hi Matt you keep referring to a .wav file as if it is something special or different from other files. A wav is just an uncompressed digital sound file. All Windows compatable music software creates wav files. Here is a link to explain exactly what it is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WAV
As stated earlier a click is designed as a ref point...does not mean you have to sound mechanical or robotic it just makes sure you are in time with the song. Modern studios record piecemeal and snippets are cut from several takes so the best bits can be strung together to form a track. It saves time waiting for that perfect performance which might not come till take 19. Without a click the timing to splice these together would be off and it would be impossible to cut and dice accurately. The parts would never match.
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#774906 - 11/29/09 11:57 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Johnny Daubert
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 01/27/01
Posts: 7185
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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I use a clicker when just playing my old upright piano, or guitar, at home! Doing that mainly keeps me grounded in not having rushed transitions. That allows for a more relaxed playing experience, no matter the pace of the song.
Also, by doing that, it allowed me to record a two instrument song at Sub's, (just piano and strings) without using a click track, so I would not even have it in the background. The emotional song I wrote flowed along as I wanted it to.
I just didn't want to hear anything but the piano for that song on it's start of the tracks. Some ebb and flow would be fine, as I'm sure it wasn't in perfect time, although Mike said it was. (Being nice, Mike?) But, if right on, or very close for that type of song, the good timing wouldn't have happened if I didn't always practice that song and all others with the clicker on, on the music desk of the piano.
For all other songs, we used a click track!
And yes! Marnie has our band drilled to stay with him, or even a hair back on spots. He mentions Sub often, and is always messing with the click, for trying some songs up or down a BMP or two. Finding the pocket for songs is critical in how they are felt by us, then of course, by any listeners.
THANKS SUB! Band Tightness, with more feeling, has become easier to realize with Marnie on the click, and us with him. He's our Giant Clicker!
John
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#774916 - 11/30/09 01:06 AM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: Johnny Daubert]
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Iggy
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 1049
Loc: Manheim, PA
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Un-protected sex with a stranger
Running with scissors
Getting in the ring with Mike Tyson
Not using a click track
They’re all about the same.
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#774944 - 11/30/09 05:09 AM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: Iggy]
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mattbanx
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1384
Loc: Northern Minnesota
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No Jim, I state what I state. Including references.
I was stating visualizing the track on the graph over a click track.
But I like the old fasioned standard 1-2-3-4 - boom bam, smash, bannnng! too every now and again.
Especially with something hard or up-tempo.
But just about everyone has done the first 2 things that above posts states.
Especially in this day and age.
But the musicians still like to line up their tracks straight - LOL.
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#775090 - 11/30/09 02:30 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: mattbanx]
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Joe Wrabek
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 6178
Loc: Garibaldi, OR USA
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I don't think so, Iggy. I'd never do #2 or #3, but I sure would think about #1. It'd depend a lot on the stranger.
I have not used a click track since Time immemorial, except for the situations noted way, way up above. For live performance, and for anything that's going to *sound* like a live performance, I have a work-around. We used it in the band's first two recordings for the album, too.
Rather than doing the "one, two, three, four" count-in to starting a song (which we tried, but couldn't get right), I just do a few bars lead-in--just the solo rhythm guitar; it's something I've done for years, to set the tempo right for myself. The band comes in on the first downbeat, and it's usually perfect.
Joe
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#775099 - 11/30/09 02:59 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: Joe Wrabek]
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Mike Dunbar
JPF Mentor
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 8203
Loc: Nashville Tennessee
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Joe, that's the way bluegrassers count in a song. You never hear someone saying, "one two three," instead a fiddle will play "nick nick near", a banjo will play a few "potatoes" or fiddle will play "son-of-a-gun I'm tired." and everyone is in.
_________________________
Anybody who’s made it will tell you, you can make it. Anyone who hasn’t made it will tell you, you can’t -John Mayer Success is simply a matter of luck. Ask any failure. -Earl Wilson It's only music. -niteshift Mike Dunbar Music
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#775199 - 11/30/09 09:47 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: Mike Dunbar]
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Joe Wrabek
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 6178
Loc: Garibaldi, OR USA
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You mean we're, like, normal? The band will never believe that...
Joe
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#775311 - 12/01/09 09:14 AM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Thanks Mike for your words of wisdom.
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#775327 - 12/01/09 09:57 AM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
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Mike Dunbar
JPF Mentor
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 8203
Loc: Nashville Tennessee
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This is all great info.
Yes, the drummer's the "time boss." The cymbals are the clock. Now, in bluegrass, the banjo is the clock, the upright bass is like the kick drum, and the mandolin is like the snare. They all depend on the clock to tell them where to come in. Sometimes when the whole band is listening to a click it just doesn't groove like it should...now, I said sometimes...with a good team it doesn't matter. But it happens often enough that most full band sessions I've played have the click going only to the drummer.
Some years back I was hired to be musical director on an album project...whatever that means, Ha. I guess what it was supposed to mean was that the producers (two producers...hmmmm...all chiefs...maybe they should have had a vice president of guitars) anyway, the producers weren't really musicians, so they needed someone to interpret to the pickers. Of course, they, being from Boston, spent a few days in Nashville finding the musicians. They went out to the bars and collected a band. I, being the bass player as well as the music director ( ) was allowed to pick the drummer. The producers in their wisdom put up a click track for everyone to hear. After a few takes we listened back. The track sucked. The nervous producers started blaming me for choosing such a poor drummer. I told the engineer to solo the drums and bass. It grooved like a steam locomotive. It was obvious to the producers. I tactfully told them that it might have been their musicians who couldn't find a beat if they were making love with Tina Turner. So they let me have my way. I chased the musicians out and the drummer and I cut all the songs, then we brought their guys in and built them onto the tracks. That project got a "number one add" in Cashbox and still, nearly twenty years later, sells for the artist.
But the old clicks had serious limitations. Today's clicks can be programmed to change. High end ones can "morph" and accelerate or decelerate. You can stop the click and bring it back in at a different tempo. We could have used those features years ago, back then we had to use a conductor (which symphony orchestras still use) to be fluid with the tempo. Being fluid with the tempo is something that, like dynamics, is practically gone from popular music. Remember "Those Were the Days?" It broke tempo, accelerated, it was exquisite. You couldn't do that with an old "locked in" click. We ran afoul of that at a session some years back.
We were playing a demo session at the long gone Willow Wind studios. The piano player on the session was the late Larry Knechtel, a lovely guy. Larry won a grammy for playing on "Bridge Over Troubled Waters." He was part of the Wrecking Crew and a member of Bread. Larry could play the piano so good the elephants were ashamed of their poor quality of ivory. Anyway, we had a songwriter who wanted her song to stop at the end, come back in at a different tempo, then speed up for a while, then ritard to a halt and finally finish with a short, quick measure and a sudden stop. The drummer was using a click. The way the studio was set up, we couldn't see the drummer. The producer spent his time on the phone, trying to get more gigs LOL. After about six or seven botched takes, the songwriter started saying she thought we were supposed to be some high class studio pickers, but we could hardly play. I was afraid Larry would throw the acoustic piano at her. I explained to her that she was getting a low budget demo and for what she wanted she would need to have a conductor or be in a studio set up so the drummer, or someone, could conduct. We took a break while she played us that passage on the guitar about a dozen times...each one played differently...and finally went back and felt our way through a take. Now, of course we could have gotten it quickly with a conductor, or today we could have a programmed click to bring us in at tempo.
Mike, you are so right. Session players don't talk about this stuff at all, they just play. A good team can use a click in the mix or just give it to the drummer and it makes no difference. Most drummers here bring their own click to the session and feed the monitor send into a mixer so they can mix their own click as they like. Sometimes a producer will have them send that click to everyone else, that is rare, but when it happens, no one says anything about it. Sometimes a producer doesn't want a click at all (and sometimes when that happens, the drummer doesn't say anything ). We just play, and the drummer is the time boss.
_________________________
Anybody who’s made it will tell you, you can make it. Anyone who hasn’t made it will tell you, you can’t -John Mayer Success is simply a matter of luck. Ask any failure. -Earl Wilson It's only music. -niteshift Mike Dunbar Music
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#775545 - 12/02/09 03:42 AM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: Mike Dunbar]
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Mike Caro Substudio
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 7782
Loc: NY
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Mike D
Great great stories Loved it.
Yes it can go any way the session needs to go regarding the click.
The biggie is, the way I often work is alone (unfortunate) but also working separately from each other is a HUGE reason to use the click.
A guy has his song down, he is alone and he wants to start recording it. He picks up his guitar and plays it. He doesn't use a click. Now a few days later he starts bringing in the other players one at at time. Guess what? Your moving so now there moving too, and the drummer is having a hard time committing himself with the uncertainty.
As of recent years drums have been the last thing recorded on many of my own songs. On most of my songs I use another drummer, Can't wait for people so you start tracking.
I know I don't need to hear drums when I'm tracking pretty much anything, so we lay off the whole song except perhaps maybe the vocal may be a guide vocal. But I do need that click.
When the drummer comes he's thrilled, he hears the whole band practically but no one is there, and all focus is given to him and his parts. Why would i want to have to communicate with 4 other guys and spread the focus and time. This allows me to have the drummer do his ideas and mine as well. I can watch him and listen and i don't have to play anything. even do 2 takes so I can choose the best cuts for later.
Now if I have bassist or acoustic guitarists or keyboard player etc.. who say "I can't do this really right unless the drums are there." That's not gonna be to productive.
And emailing tracks etc... is a mess sometimes.
The click is not only to keep time it's like a map. The path of the song so we can follow. And it's great when the drummer is the only one listening to the click, and he doesn't let any one pull him.
The first thing I do 98% of the time is play acoustic all alone
to a click track, and a harsh one too lol. No guide vocal or anyone else.
You work whichever way is needed for the moment. Like Mike D says have it together yourself and it won't matter which way it goes, you'll be fine.
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#775551 - 12/02/09 04:27 AM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
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mattbanx
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1384
Loc: Northern Minnesota
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Mike:
Yes! Solid timing.
I have loads of tracks with manufactured samples that do that.
On the net that is 1,000 times easier.
No need to even pick up the instrument.
My way of seeing it is there are a lot of crafty musicians that have that click way of doing things, whether it be with a track or in general.
Then there are those that move in their own way.
May not fit in to a box or would fit in to a musicians click, yet the typical listener (non musician) digs it.
Some do not have the skill for the life of them to play a chord, yet have a lot of artistic drive.
That does'nt mean do not try and have form.
I would not be here relying on my hands with the instruments and thoughts for that to be crucified and picked apart if I did'nt believe in some type of form.
But from what I have experienced, that has more to do with what musicians clicks like, not listeners in general.
I don't have the gene for technique, but for me it is zero sum.
I am not going to learn anything period relying on imitation or gadgetry.
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#775556 - 12/02/09 05:27 AM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
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mattbanx
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1384
Loc: Northern Minnesota
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Anyone other then a poser ought to be able to say someting without saying how "they would not make it" if they already have announced they are set on themselves with what they do.
I am obviously not out to be someone's prodigy here.
That aside, you have managed to give me some valid feedback Mike.
Of course I am serious about how to do it.
That does'nt mean I am going to fall back on a way just because the click might think more of it.
I know this topic is about click tracks.
But you tend to over generalize.
You can state something is black up and down and someone else will see white, especially with expression.
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#775561 - 12/02/09 06:06 AM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: mattbanx]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Matt a couple of points....Never be set in your ways.....otherwise we are back to being cavemen. We evolve and so do our techniques......You have timing issues...it can be heard in your tracks.....I play with people who do not have timing issues YET they prefer to use click tracks....They do it for valid reasons as explained in previous posts. If you have not been in a pro studio and seen the process then you cannot really comment...but should instead listen to those who have. I suggest re reading ALL the previous posts. It might be an education into why most if not all people of a pro standard use clicks. It might also interest you to know that the people you hail as greats also use elctronic click tracks plus all the other gizmos you seem to dislike.
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#775570 - 12/02/09 06:50 AM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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mattbanx
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1384
Loc: Northern Minnesota
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Okay Jim!
I guess I came here to learn things here to be a caveman.
But I have already slogged my stuff out for the consensus.
I know after so much time and consensus now what I want to do.
And to physically carry out what was in my mind.
But I know I am looked upon as inferior here (noted example, unasked, and out of the MP3 forum statements by Mike).
I have never done that myself.
All I have to say is, I heard it a million times already, musically and words in post.
That is not what I came here for.
Even if my interpretation of the forms is off, I would rather say it was mine.
If you can not understand what I am saying Mike, it is because I never anticipated explaining this.
If this was called a Studio 54 Site Mike and Jim, then I would have known ahead of time what to put up.
The performers where I live do not play in to computers and use software.
I like the emotivevess of playing, yet I always looked at clubs and the net as different.
But all I can say for now is that if what I have done now in my link in the sig is not considered an improvement to the members here, then nothing else I do will be.
Unless I want to de-evolve and rely on other means so my spin or "lack of" is not honestly judged.
Which will not happen.
I at least want that musicians to judge for themselves, however they may judge the validity.
I have a set of songs that I would like to play in.
If that is mot good enough, that is too pretentious for me and defeats the purpose of having the expression.
But oh well.
I know there are members here that mean well.
Wish you all Peace!
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#775594 - 12/02/09 09:03 AM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: mattbanx]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Matt we are only trying to help. I doubt very much that ALL the musicians where you live do not use computers or embrace technology or modern aids to help them improve. If they do not then they do not know much about music recording or music production. It is a bit like saying that you play a Casio organ but do not like digital music. When I said cavemen I meant blindly refusing to accept new ideas and technology. You use words like Live and Emotive. I know lots of musicians and engineers and other music people ALL of them can be called emotive and most can put in a pretty good live performance in a very wide spectrum of genres and styles. Just about everyone who records anything to a decent standard embrace the modern tools available. It in no way stymies a good performance or is a cop out or holds back a free-form production or makes a performance sound robotic....it actually enhances it.
You are not seen as inferior just someone very inexperienced who is learning in leaps and bounds but holding themselves back through not listening to advice and holding silly notions about not wanting to use technology or learn the basics a-z that everyone should learn.
I did listen to your song......the one you wanted me to....It is a definite improvement.....but your timing in most places is way way off and makes it sound jerky out of sync and amateurish.....a click track would improve your performance....... greatly.
If you can hear that you are playing out of time then you need to re record it. Easy fix.
If you cannot hear the places you are way off then you need a click to help keep you in time. That is why we use them.
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#775675 - 12/02/09 01:46 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Paul Ryan
Serious Contributor
Registered: 09/29/09
Posts: 68
Loc: Toronto Canada
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Iggy..you can take Iron Mike, no problem. The running with scissors....not so sure about that one. OUCH!
Paul Ryan
http://www.ryantunes.com
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#775874 - 12/03/09 02:51 AM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: Paul Ryan]
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mattbanx
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1384
Loc: Northern Minnesota
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Good answer Jim and to the point.
I am experienced in my own way but eternally a bad player.
Even where I figured I took the steps for that.
I have been looking at different tempos and seeing how they work together.
I like seeing how much I can do to see what falls in.
But I have to feel it.
Maybe no one else will hear it.
But I am really taking things at the level I feel good with.
I can learn a lot of nothing sitting on my limitations.
It is like a hard math I can not learn.
What can be done to find the closest estimate and feel true to myself.
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#775885 - 12/03/09 03:36 AM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: mattbanx]
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Mike Caro Substudio
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 7782
Loc: NY
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Matt
Anyone other then a poser ought to be able to say someting without saying how "they would not make it" if they already have announced they are set on themselves with what they do.
I am obviously not out to be someone's prodigy here.
Not sure I understand any of that All I know is one day I'm in a completely click free session, the next day it's click on, I ALWAYS play live when recording even the drum set. So i understand all about live expression.
What Jim said was very on the money, I am talking more in general but did not start my first reply to you that way. I said "you" had timing issues. I already have explained in the past in detail what you could try to do.
What your doing from what I can see, and what I have seen many times before with others, is making excuses. It's cool that you see and understand you have timing issues. But instead of doing something about it you talk about other things and drift way off the subject
Some guys come here to the studio and they "talk all about music" They KNOW alot.. Then when it comes time to record and work, they struggle badly and then do even more talking about all kinds of things accept that they ain't nailing there part!
"I usually use these kinds of strings but" "I play the drums in perfect time with my band but now" "I sing great at gig's people love it so how can i be out of key"
Music is very expressive and we can see & hear things from different points of view, but playing out of tune, being out of time, singing out of key, forcing bad rhymes, etc.. and other things aren't things that help you professionally in the field of music. Unless it's specific and accpted to a genre or some scene.
If you are making music for your own self enjoyment then that is great. And focusing on anything but fun and expression is a waste of time and a downer.
People play softball sometimes and do that. But when a professional or semi pro or even a kid who's decent at little league steps into the batters box he DEVELOPS timing.
Other wise he can't hit the ball. No fun in that
I have often found many others to generalize and see things one way, where I am ALWAYS bringing up several aspects. So much so that it hurts me professionally and in life in general.
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#775889 - 12/03/09 04:19 AM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
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mattbanx
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1384
Loc: Northern Minnesota
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If I were out to make excusesa in the first place Mike, I would not rely on my hands.
But you have obvious things that members find of use here.
You shared a sample of your rythmns when I fist got here.
My point is is that I already knew what "I" wanted to do when I came at this site.
And I took the time of getting a consensus studying the different types of music I like.
I am not out to do anything commercial, but some do not sway to another's groove, even if that other may be technically proficient in their own way.
Since I never made any pretenses or have tried to be a forum darling here, that says more for my personal integrity with it.
If you find that to be an excuse, then you just will not take me seriously, despite my efforts.
I have been nothing but honest about it.
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#775893 - 12/03/09 04:51 AM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: mattbanx]
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Mike Caro Substudio
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 7782
Loc: NY
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If I were out to make excusesa in the first place Mike, I would not rely on my hands.
I don't understand that statement at all, and what would you rely on if you were?
Anyhow like I mentioned if your doing it for yourself for fun, then what I explained is completely irrelevant.
Many and most people here and elsewhere when they like to do something a lot,like to improve. I am CONSTANTLY that way.
This reminds of something like:
Someone saying "I like to play guitar. I play guitar at home a lot alone by myself. I spend a good amount of time doing it, and I bought a nice guitar.
Now please DON"T show me that cool thing you just played!"
Even if they don't ever really further themselves with it, they usually want too in there hearts or back of there minds.
They say it, and usually often mean it.
They don't want there strings too mute & buzz when they play chords and may or may not work on that. But they don't discuss it like it's an option and part of there form of art or expression. That's an excuse or lack of really caring about what they are doing. In plain words "I'm just not that into it to sit down and practice something that takes practice and I do not do completely naturally" But even that is understandable too me
Technically proficient? Well I am untaught and untrained and unschooled in every single aspect of music. From the neck all the way to the wires behind my console.
I'm very un-technical. But nobody so far who was ever told me I needed to be.
There's only one way to be proficient and that is by being proficient best you can in whatever you do. If you play the drums in any manner what so ever and don't have timing you are an in-proficient drummer -or- just a person trying to play drums.
And that is completely fine by me, as long as your not my drummer!
What I do find your method very useful for is when I want to throw down an idea very quickly and bring it to the band etc..
That's all I'm done here Hopefully lol
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#775986 - 12/03/09 12:10 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: mattbanx]
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Johnny Daubert
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 01/27/01
Posts: 7185
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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You can state something is black up and down and someone else will see white, especially with expression.
Matt, and anyone esle:
THAT is exactly why being in time and knowing you are in time works, (with the aid of a clicker). FOR, the very reason of being able, (by artistic expression) to NOT RUSH any fill or transition chord. Most players who don't have good timing rush some of their playing, which tends to have other things sound if they are late arriving to the party! That is not artistic at all. It's just plain careless and sloppy, to be honest.
With a click, (at any time of practicing or whatever), the pocket and feel of a song and all it's playing become VERY expressive, and very nice to listen to by any listener who of course won't hear the click that was laid down or in your ear.
Imagine 1/8 notes needing to be played by the drummer on some fill, or 1/8, or 1/16 note guitar riffs, for example. IF NOT in time, one of those players will most likely get to the finish line too fast, and mess up the FEEL. When a click is present to have as a subconscious aid, (after time getting used to it), there is a world of time to complete any riff, no matter how many notes!
Or better example yet,,,,when there are very few notes to play in one measure. One can then purposely play n the back end of the beat, (a hair),,,not sounding off,,,but feeling really soulful and nice! THAT is done by knowing where the time is. Jumping all around with all the instruments, with so many parts out of wack does not make for artistic expression. It only show a lack of skill for playing music in a good pocket, with having some educated or feeling leeway that makes for a great feel. IT ALL comes much easier and more musician like with the clicker.
The other way to look at it is to ignore timing. Music is timing. Drums and bass are what people can lock onto to when in good timing.(The primal feel of music). The players then stay with the drummer, (their click), not rushing ahead and not leaving the bass drum or snare all to its lonesome,,, and with that, results in a good sounding tight band that feels good to the listeners.
Really, when playing with a drummer, the main thing to listen to is the hit hat, (that will give you the 1/8 notes most of the time, to which then those gaps in between beats are nicely laid out to play "WITH". No need to strain to heaer the bass drum. The Hi hat will let you know when that will be on the downbeat. Same for any upneats!
It just makes playing that much more expressive, to relax in that nice timing already done for everyone,,,through the drums using the click!
When just playing my piano at home,,,,I set the click to whatevr song I'm about to play. Then I just FEEL the music and flow right along,,,,confident I won't be ending a slow song as a medium tempo one, or a fast song ending in a too fast pace,,,Rushing is always what seems to happens by nature.
Think about it this way too: Time in life seems to go by faster, even with a clock set in perfect seconds! So, without speeding up a song, as one might feel a need to do,,,,,it will already be fast enough at the end if sticking to the clock!
Always play with a clicker,,for anything,,practice,,,,writing a song even, to get that right pocket feel, which could then lead to even more expressive ideas,,,,for the player has all the good time in the world!
There's a reason Marnie, Iggy, Roon, Doc and I are excited about playing the songs more than when Marnie hadn't met Sub yet.
FEELING is a by product of the click,,,,,not an enemy. Once any player experiences that when playing ALL the time with one, it's even there when not able to have one on, like at some party or at some place to play solo, etc. You'll soon feel your good timing habits of the click caring over into those impromptu playing!
John
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#775991 - 12/03/09 01:27 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: Johnny Daubert]
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Mike Dunbar
JPF Mentor
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 8203
Loc: Nashville Tennessee
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John,
I'm a big fan of learning to play with a click. I'm also a big fan of learning to play with a drummer or another musician who makes the time "breathe," as we say in the local studios.
You say "FEELING is a by product of the click" but I say the click is a by product of feeling. It all started with heartbeat which is not even. It is affected by gravity and "swing" literally. A Strauss waltz was never meant to be played in strict time, it would lose that swing at the beginning of a phrase. Even in strict time music, if the players all played dead on the beat, you wouldn't have had Motown or Memphis. The drummer can play the snare a little ahead or behind for amazingly good results.
Years back, I co-produced a session for Richard Dobson. The drummer was Richie Albright, drummer for Waylon Jennings and the Waylors, as well as producer for George Jones and others. I was new to playing session bass, more used to playing rhythm guitar, but I could hold dead steady to a metronome. On the first day of the session, in my naievity, I complained that Richie's time was drifting in the Texas waltzes. Man, was I ever wrong. Older, wiser heads took me aside and let me know that I should play Richie's time instead of mine. I listened, and dropped the bass a red pubic hair behind Richie's foot. Richie's drums swung and danced, they sparkled. The project got a "recommended pick" from Billboard. I looked like a genius instead of a green kid who almost ruined the project by bringing in a click. After that, I made it a mission to learn the genres. Texas waltzes aren't in strict time.
I was a click Nazi.
Now, of course, for anyone wanting to play music at its highest level, they should learn how to play to a click. They should also learn how to play to a conductor, and a drummer whose time is "breathing," and to a banjo player who is, correctly so, accelerating. It's the old "color between the lines" argument. Amateurs will argue that you not bother with coloring between the lines, they will also argue that you should always color between the lines. Pros just color away and make it look good. Well, that's the way it is with music. Make it sound good...but the key word is "make." If Matt has the happy accident of being able to make music that sounds good even if the time "breathes," then fine, as long as breathing-time music is all he ever aspires to play. If, however, his music just doesn't "get it" with loose time, then he needs to loosen up his insistence on eschewing the click. I haven't listened to his new stuff, so I can't comment. He may be doing just fine for what he wants or needs...or he may not. I wonder what his team says?
_________________________
Anybody who’s made it will tell you, you can make it. Anyone who hasn’t made it will tell you, you can’t -John Mayer Success is simply a matter of luck. Ask any failure. -Earl Wilson It's only music. -niteshift Mike Dunbar Music
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#775995 - 12/03/09 01:42 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: Mike Dunbar]
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Johnny Daubert
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 01/27/01
Posts: 7185
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Yes! I even said such a thing as being a hair behind: "One can then purposely play n the back end of the beat, (a hair),,,not sounding off,,,but feeling really soulful and nice! THAT is done by knowing where the time is".
By you knowing a click method, you then just had ot adjust to what the drummer was doing for that style. Knowing leads to adjusting! Probably was fast for you to adjust, already knowing the timing rules,,,,then could understand how to break them!
Cool story there Mike! Great points too.
Will adjust myself just a hair,,,(Not a ,,,,Oh never mind)!!
John
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#776002 - 12/03/09 01:56 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: Mike Dunbar]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Interesting stuff.....BUT so as to not confuse the issue if you cannot follow a simple tempo, beat or rhythm then you need to use something to help you. It does not matter if you try to play on, in front of or behind the beat if you do not know where the beat is in the first place or are unable to follow a beat pattern in your head for any length of time you are lost.
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