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#719040 - 05/09/09 11:56 PM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: niteshift]
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Brian Hazard
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 66
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I just don't get it. You're getting 40 - 80 unpaid plays a day, so that's 60 people on average who want to listen to your music. I've just checked my IAC stats, and ten days into the month, without promotion of any kind, the play count is 650. Add to that, plays from Ourstage, and soundclick, and it would probably add to around 1,000. So lets say, 3000 for the month. Very low figures, but then again, I haven't been promotiong anything.
I get more plays on other sites too, but some plays are more valuable than others. I try new things out, measure their effectiveness, and dump what doesn't work.
What kind of sales are you getting out of those 3,000 plays per month? When I got 4,000 plays at OurStage through winning the electronic category, it didn't result in any sales that I could trace. I doubt more than 10% of those listens went past the 0:30 mark, due to the nature of the contest.
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#719047 - 05/10/09 12:18 AM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: Brian Hazard]
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niteshift
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 4053
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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Hey Brian,
Sales ? ..... sales ?.... what's that ? LOL
Being at the bottom of the indie heap, and not having mainstream exposure, it's unlikely that any amount of sales are going to happen for me. Why would folks but it, when they can capture the audio stream and get if for free ?
You're right about some sites being more valuable than others. IAC only counts one play when over 60% of the song , or 2 minutes of audio has been streamed from one ISP in one day. In other words, you could have the same song playing all day, and it will only count as one hit.
Ourstage, on the other hand only requires 15 seconds. I don't really think punters are coming to Ourstage to just listen to music. They're likely to be supporters, trying to get a particular tune over the line. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just use it as a testing platform for new material.
Yep, we've all got to try new things. When I find the perfect solution, I'll let ya know, but I still see paying for streams as the tail wagging the dog.
cheers, niteshift
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#719048 - 05/10/09 12:21 AM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: Brian Hazard]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Brian,
For someone not on their direct payroll, you're acting like it. That's fine. You're a big fan of theirs. But you're doing the classic propaganda move of grabbing unrelated and disconnected facts and trying to suggest one proves your point. I am not even sure you realize you're doing it.
The fact that you've written articles elsewhere certainly has confused things. All I can do is base my responses to you based on your direct responses to me.
Above I asked 4 direct questions. You said that you were going to answer those in an article rather than just answering them 1, 2, 3 & 4. Since then, you've flooded a ton of info here but none of them deal directly and simply with the questions without reading a lot of unrelated material to get to the bottom line. In your response 718528 you acknowledged you had not yet answered my questions. Read everything below that post and you'll see that you never did. I am simply trusting your own statements here Brian. If you had already given info that you felt answered those 4 questions previously, why didn't you say that instead of saying you'd come back and answer them? See the problem?
1. Do you have their names and direct contacts?
The answer is STILL no correct? YOu even add to that and say their communications tools are useless. That's far more pessimistic than anything I have said right? So who's the pessimist?
2. Do you know where they are located?
This was misleading on your part. You might have site stats just like you can get by looking at raw data from anonymous visitors to a website. (There are sites you can go to that can even tell you the average age of the visitors to your site... it's all based on IPs and cookie info). But for the real world purposes of an artist wanting to know where their fans are so they can visit their town and invite them to a show, they still don't know who those people are or how to contact them correct? That is the point of the question. It's useless info otherwise.
3. Have they actual purchased anything?
You only know of 1 single purchase tied to something that happened at Jango. It's dishonest to suggest that any other purchases are from Jango. At most it is wild speculation and hopeful thinking. It's more likely they randomly found you somewhere else and bought it in truth. And the fact that Jango doesn't directly track and share that info for you makes them even less useful than I originally thought. Another strike against them.
4. Have they responded to your notes to them?
You said 3 had responded. My point was positive. That's actually not bad for internet communications, sad as it may seem. 2 out of 100 (I even rounded up to make it sound better, how's that pessimistic?) is better than average. When I sent a JPF newsletter out to 50K people, I usually get about 500 responses. That's only 1%. Occassionally I get over 1000.. sometimes only 150. So the fact that you heard back from a few is good. Obviously based on how much it cost you, however, it's not so good. It costs me $50 dollars to send out our newsletter. That means I am hearing back from 500 people or at a cost of .10 cents a response. You paid $200 dollars and heard back from 3 people. That's roughly $66.00 per response. Not so good. And that was $200 investment to get app. $20 dollars in profit (and that's a guess.. how much did you make on your T-Shirt and CD?). Also not a great investment. And since you don't have the real contacts of these listeners, at best you're assuming they're real based on blind trust that the Jango numbers are fact. That's mighty nice of you. I am not so trusting. If I had REAL names and contacts of people who supposedly volunteered to be on my list by clicking something, I'd feel a little better about it all.
I will say this, you're a relentless propaganda cheerleader for these guys. I wish you'd use that passion to cheer on some of the good guys in the industry. Jango may be good people behind the scenes (probably are for that matter) but somewhere along the line they decided that they could cash in on indie artists desperate for airplay and their conscience allowed them to do it. I can see the theory being bantered around becase I have done that... i.e. how can we get more indie artists played on the radio? I've heard just about every scheme and I have weighed the plusses and minuses of all of them. Usually people will twist facts hard to point in their favor. But in the end, if you are paying money upfront, you need to see a clear cut return on your investment like any other investor. That means specific sales that are traceable, specific fans identified by name and with their contact info included (like CD Baby gives out so why can't Jango?) and it should be profitable, not a loss. There should be no discussion about how much you lost. You shouldn't LOSE anything.
People have very short attention spans. On internet radio when you're paying for airplay, if that person doesn't take action right then and buy your music, it's a loss. Because unless you pay AGAIN... they won't hear you again and people don't have that large of an attention span. And if your music is so amazing that they WILL remember, then it's even MORE of a crime to make you pay for airplay. At best, Jango is an uneeded middle man that has inserted themselves into the food chain because they can't make money any other way. That should tell you something right there.
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney 
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#719056 - 05/10/09 01:04 AM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: niteshift]
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Brian Hazard
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 66
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Yep, we've all got to try new things. When I find the perfect solution, I'll let ya know, but I still see paying for streams as the tail wagging the dog.
You may very well be right. To put this whole discussion into context, my Jango article came on the heels of my Last.fm Powerplay article, in which I decided that particular pay-to-play scheme was ineffective. It was an easier call, since plays cost 10x as much!
I put IAC on my "to do" list. It sounds promising! I appreciate the info.
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#719072 - 05/10/09 02:12 AM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Brian Hazard
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 66
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For someone not on their direct payroll, you're acting like it. That's fine. You're a big fan of theirs.
I'm doing my best to remain objective. From reading your last JPF newsletter, it's clear that you were against Jango before you ever heard of it. You describe pay-to-play as some vast monolithic corporate evil, when Jango seems to be a few guys running an internet radio site.
The fact that you've written articles elsewhere certainly has confused things. All I can do is base my responses to you based on your direct responses to me.
My first post in the thread was a link to my first article. You decided not to read it, and attacked Jango without knowing anything except that it was pay-to-play. Everything else I've referred to is here in the thread.
If you had already given info that you felt answered those 4 questions previously, why didn't you say that instead of saying you'd come back and answer them? See the problem?
Since you refused to go off-site and read my first article, I figured you'd refuse to read the follow-up too. I didn't realize you'd allow me to post it here.
The answer is STILL no correct? YOu even add to that and say their communications tools are useless. That's far more pessimistic than anything I have said right? So who's the pessimist?
I'm doing my best to remain objective. I'm confused... am I acting like I'm on their payroll, or being a pessimist? ;)
But for the real world purposes of an artist wanting to know where their fans are so they can visit their town and invite them to a show, they still don't know who those people are or how to contact them correct?
The data isn't aggregated in any useful way, but let's say I was playing a show in Texas. Here's what I'd do:
1. Go to my profile page: http://www.jango.com/music/Color+Theory
2. Search for "TX" and highlight all
3. Scroll down the list of "fans" and "people who like"
4. Click on the names with highlights to open their profiles
5. Click the envelope to "email" them (probably through the Jango interface, not a real email)
I see 16 or so people from Texas on my profile, so that wouldn't take long to do! You could also send a bulletin with your show dates, but I doubt many would see it.
It's dishonest to suggest that any other purchases are from Jango.
It's dishonest to suggest that they aren't! That's my point. We just don't know.
It's more likely they randomly found you somewhere else and bought it in truth.
How did you determine that?
That's roughly $66.00 per response. Not so good.
I paid for plays, not messages. If I were paying for comments on my profile, the math would be much more favorable. I'll say it again - their communication system is ineffective. It's clear that my messages aren't being read. You, on the other hand, can track whether your e-mails were received and opened. Apples and oranges.
If I had REAL names and contacts of people who supposedly volunteered to be on my list by clicking something, I'd feel a little better about it all.
I've got hundreds of comments on my profile. Are you suggesting that Jango representatives are creating fake profiles and adding the comments themselves? I'm not sure what you're getting at.
I will say this, you're a relentless propaganda cheerleader for these guys.
There's that ad hominem territory I was hoping to avoid. I have a lot of respect for you, built up over years of reading your e-mails, ever since we met at a Taxi Road Rally when JPF was just getting started - so I'm not going to reciprocate.
But in the end, if you are paying money upfront, you need to see a clear cut return on your investment like any other investor. That means specific sales that are traceable, specific fans identified by name and with their contact info included (like CD Baby gives out so why can't Jango?) and it should be profitable, not a loss.
Can you suggest some promotion techniques that guarantee a profit? Let's value my time at $5 per hour. What can I do to promote my music that will earn me back more than my cash outlay plus $5 per hour of my time?
People have very short attention spans. On internet radio when you're paying for airplay, if that person doesn't take action right then and buy your music, it's a loss. Because unless you pay AGAIN... they won't hear you again and people don't have that large of an attention span. And if your music is so amazing that they WILL remember, then it's even MORE of a crime to make you pay for airplay.
Actually, that could be seen as one of the virtues of Jango. Maybe some people need to hear the song 5-10 times before making a purchase. That could potentially happen in the course of a 5,000 play campaign.
Brian, in all seriousness, thanks for keeping me company on a Saturday night. I enjoy the discussion, but we really should get out more!
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#719536 - 05/11/09 08:34 PM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: Brian Hazard]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Brian,
The pessimism comment was sarcasm. Sorry it didn't come through strongly enough. You commented that I was painting them in the most negative light possible. I think I was painting them in the most clear blue light of day sort of way. They aren't 100% bad. If they weren't charging you for airplay, then their offerings would have some value. But you can get similar offerings for free around the web (i.e. building fans, communicating with them in more effective ways etc.). Or you could work with an internet broadcaster who plays music like you play and get airplay that way. Or you can get on a site like Pandora and get not only free airplay, but royalties if it happens. Are you getting royalties for these paid for streams? Does Jango pay SoundExchange? Are you registered there? 5000 plays should result in a check not only for you, but also for the owner of the recording (probably you as well) and 5% of that money is supposed to go to the musicians union. I am not sure how they can get around that unless you waived those rights? I haven't been able to contact SoundExchange to get their response.
As for return on investment, that is what they seem to be selling you right? Pay for airplay and it will produce fans (which they don't give you access to outside their site) and sales (which so far they can't back up with any evidence because they don't bother to track that for you). So what exactly is the return on investment you're getting? A warm and fuzzy feeling that you're getting played to 5000 people?
What does 5000 plays mean exactly by the way? Is it 1 play to 5000 people 1 time each, or could it be 10 plays to 500 people? And if someone requests a play, does that count against your total? What actual evidence do you have that it really played? Do they give you times and to whom it was played so you can track how many different people?
As for Saturday, I work 7 days a week 14-18 or more hours at a stretch. I have no idea what day it is or even what time it is most of the time. = )
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#719602 - 05/12/09 12:00 AM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Brian Hazard
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 66
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Brian, I totally didn't catch the sarcasm. My bad! We were both up pretty late.
Yeah, there are a number of sites that do basically the same thing for free. Pandora, Slacker, even the Genius feature in iTunes. But they probably don't play my music as much if at all, and don't share any stats with artists.
I registered with SoundExchange a few years back, but I just found out they had the wrong address. It turns out they owe me $41. If the statement breaks down the payment by source, I'll let you know! The Jango FAQ says they pay royalties, but they only mention ASCAP and BMI by name. I'm not expecting much, considering how little I'm earning from Last.fm.
My assumption is that plays count even if they are to the same listener. I personally would prefer the same person hearing my song over and over, because I'm told a lot of my songs are "growers."
For evidence, I've got my stats. I can visit the fans' profiles, but I can't otherwise verify the play totals, likes, and profile views. They don't tell you the times the song was played or the names of who it was played to. With approximately 400 plays per day, that would be a long list! The best evidence that the song is reaching real people are the hundreds of comments on my profile. If you read them, you'll see what I mean. They can't possibly be fake, because they uniquely describe my music.
My return on investment is impossible to measure, and Jango doesn't make any promises. If we only count things we can verify, as of today I've got 188 self-declared "fans," a couple hundred comments, a handful of e-mails (I got a nice fanmail this morning), demographic info on who likes my songs and what other bands they like, and $20 in sales - at a cost of $200. Sadly, that's more than I have to show for $7,000 spent on traditional radio promotion.
If Jango implements some of my suggestions, I'll have more concrete data. Even if they don't, my CD Baby digital sales figures might provide some clues in a month or so. If the airplay program really is a good investment for musicians, it's in Jango's best interest to develop tools to measure the results.
I feel like we've reached a point where we understand each other's perspective, even though we don't agree on everything. You're opposed to pay-to-play at a fundamental level, whereas I'm happy to give it a shot and see what happens. We both want to measure the results, but we don't have enough data. You say stay away because it's unproven. I say it's cheap and at least as effective as traditional radio promo, which I will never waste my time and money on again.
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#720224 - 05/13/09 07:05 PM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: Brian Hazard]
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Brian Hazard
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 66
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Make that $60 in sales. I got another email order for four CDs today. After the address/payment stuff was taken care of, I asked how she discovered me. She heard me at her boyfriend's house because I was on his Jango station. She thought at first it was Depeche Mode, and then decided to listen through all my songs.
I suppose I could ask everyone who ordered CDs over the past couple of months. It still wouldn't be very scientific.
Also got a couple more responses to my "does anyone read these bulletins?" bulletin.
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#720571 - 05/14/09 03:58 PM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: Brian Hazard]
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Brian Hazard
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 66
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Another email today from the contact page of colortheory.com, sent by a graphic designer who heard me on Jango, checked out my site, and bought two albums on iTunes. So we're up to $73 after Apple and CD Baby take their cuts.
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#722555 - 05/21/09 11:16 AM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: Brian Hazard]
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Brian Hazard
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 66
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Another $10 today from Estonia. Again, I wouldn't have known if I hadn't asked.
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#722566 - 05/21/09 12:24 PM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: Brian Hazard]
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niteshift
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 4053
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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Hey Brian,
Are you sure you're not being "played" here. Someone unknown to you buys TWO albums ? Unlikely at best. Estonia ? $10 ? Those guys steal music like there's no tomorrow. And they're going to fork out $10 ?
Sorry mate, just a vague suspician here, that you're being set up. Hope I'm wrong, but experience tells me your "sales" are coming from the money you've already paid. Hope I'm wrong.....
cheers, niteshift
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#722570 - 05/21/09 12:48 PM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: niteshift]
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Brian Hazard
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 66
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"Those guys" in Estonia happen to be a nice lady named Irene, who I've shared a few e-mails with. I've also shared several e-mails with Adelaide, who ordered the CD and t-shirt in Canada. She is on my mailing list and a friend on Facebook. The guy who ordered a couple albums on iTunes is a graphic designer, with a dang nice web site.
I personally find the thought that they'd rig a few album sales hilarious, though I genuinely appreciate your concern. Are the people I sent the CDs to Jango staff, or somehow in on it? And if the were going to do it, wouldn't they go for more than $84? I get orders every month from people who buy all eight of my CDs at once. If they'd rigged a few of those, I'd be showing a clear profit (note to Jango staff...).
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#722573 - 05/21/09 12:57 PM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: Brian Hazard]
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niteshift
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 4053
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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All 8 CD's at once ? I bow down to you Brian. You are a musical genius.
What am I doing wrong ? Thousands of plays a month, sometimes tens of thousands, upon a new release, and not a download ?
BUT , this month, so far, I've made $8.64 , you've just lost over $100. Logic ?
cheers, niteshift
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#722576 - 05/21/09 01:03 PM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: niteshift]
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Brian Hazard
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 66
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Or you could look at it this way: $3,000 in sales YTD, minus $300 to Jango = $2700. Either way, it's still not going to pay the mortgage.
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#722577 - 05/21/09 01:09 PM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: niteshift]
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Brian Hazard
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 66
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What am I doing wrong ? Thousands of plays a month, sometimes tens of thousands, upon a new release, and not a download ?
That's a good question, and definitely worth exploring. If most of those plays are from IAC, I'm going to take that one off my to-do list! I guess those plays aren't reaching the right people. If only there were a site that allowed you to target your airplay to exactly the people most likely to enjoy your music. Hmm... 
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#722578 - 05/21/09 01:12 PM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: Brian Hazard]
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niteshift
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 4053
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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True. But don't give your hard earned money to a neagative money making scheme. That's how they work. "It's only a few bucks" attitude. Multiply that by all the others, and what do you get ? Perfect scam. Totally legal. If it leaves you in a negative position, who's laughing ? Them, all the way to the bank. If you're getting good sales Brian, then I'd invest your earnings in a good PR firm.
cheers, ( and you know I'm on the same side ) niteshift
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#722582 - 05/21/09 01:24 PM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: niteshift]
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Brian Hazard
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 66
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I've already explained why I don't think it's a scam, so I won't repeat myself. I totally understand where you're coming from, but the bottom line is, it takes money and/or time to generate fans, and you can't sell music without fans. I'm not saying anything new here of course - just the usual "it takes money to make money."
If anyone can suggest a method of promotion that will generate more fans and/or sales than Jango for less money, valuing my time at $5/hr, I'll do it!
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#722585 - 05/21/09 01:50 PM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: Brian Hazard]
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niteshift
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 4053
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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Hey Brian,
I totally understand your point of view.
I've used 10 differet press release services, for example, in my latest release. All at different price ranges, from a few hundered dollars, to zero. I want to contrast and compere, and will publish an article on the findings atfer the 3 month general accepted time span.
I think what I'm saying here, is if you're earning $3k per quater, just from internet sales, you're one fine damn musician. You've just cut out 99% of the competition. And in saying that, I wouldn't want you to give the wrong impression to other folks who may think they can do the same thing.
If you're making those sales, you're good on your own. In fact, damn good. So why still promote a loss making scheme, and especially one to other guys which don't have your sales ? I'd be looking at "mainstream" if I were you.
cheers, niteshift
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#722589 - 05/21/09 02:05 PM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: niteshift]
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Brian Hazard
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 66
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I appreciate your kind words, but actually, I've got at least a dozen friends who sell just as much or more than I do. And other friends who make better music, but sell far less.
Obviously I don't see Jango as a loss machine, nor do the handful of friends and blog subscribers who have tried it. I could very well break even in the long term, or even in the next few months, though it'll be hard to know for sure unless I see a HUGE spike in digital sales.
Please consider guest authoring a post on Passive Promotion about your press release experiences! I used Beat Wire once, and nothing much came of it.
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#722841 - 05/22/09 10:54 AM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: Brian Hazard]
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Andrew Aversa
Serious Contributor
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Philadelphia, PA, USA
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I'm tempted to give this a shot at the entry price level.
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#724704 - 05/28/09 10:14 PM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: Brian Hazard]
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Andrew Aversa
Serious Contributor
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Philadelphia, PA, USA
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Early on in my campaign. I don't like the targeting that requires you to pick 5 artists - I would rather pick just 2 that I am very close to. 155 plays, 17 positive ratings, 4 fans, no verifiable sales yet.
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#724705 - 05/28/09 10:23 PM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: Andrew Aversa]
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Brian Hazard
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 66
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Thanks for sharing your stats Andrew!
The more artists you pick and the more songs you assign plays to, the more plays you'll receive (both paid and unpaid). At 30 artists and 6 songs, I was getting 800 plays a day! It didn't take long to burn through those. I just ran out today (I got another 5,000 plays from affiliate earnings), so I'll be interested to see how many unpaid plays I'll get with these stats:
22495 plays (19995 paid), 2097 likes, 318 fans, 1055 views
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#724722 - 05/28/09 11:29 PM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: Brian Hazard]
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Andrew Aversa
Serious Contributor
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Philadelphia, PA, USA
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But I don't want more arbitrary plays, I want targeted plays. Isn't that the point? I want to show off my music that sounds like BT and Hybrid, two popular progressive breakbeat artists. But I had to compromise and put artists like The Chemical Brothers, Crystal Method and Fatboy Slim. I KINDA sound like those guys, but not my more recent stuff. So that's really lame of Jango.
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#724731 - 05/28/09 11:53 PM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: Andrew Aversa]
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Brian Hazard
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 66
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I totally see what you're saying, but actually, I could pick even more! My music doesn't sound like all the artists I'm targeting. In fact, I don't even like all the artists I'm targeting, but fans of those artists seem to like my music. So I suppose if fans of Crystal Method and Fatboy Slim like BT and Hybrid (which I believe they do), you're in business!
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#724891 - 05/29/09 01:23 PM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: Brian Hazard]
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Brian Hazard
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 66
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By the way Andrew, I just made the connection between you and your SoundTempest blog, which I read every Friday on my reader! Great stuff.
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#725142 - 05/30/09 11:36 AM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: Brian Hazard]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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If the Jango people had a brain they'd make sure BOTH of you had sales and success.. even if they had to play you 1000 times more than you're paying for. I know quite a few industry folks who are following this post closely to see what's happening. Jango might already be nudging your airplay just to improve the results. Brian has been their best case scenario as an Apostle for their company. I am not frankly sure how much I trust either of your future results.
Then again, so far your results still aren't that great.
Thanks for the updates. We're working on something that I think will be better than all of this... but your experiences with this company are great real world examples of the positive and negative. Jango should toss the fees and find money another way. I actually know what that way is and hopefully we can offer something with the best of all worlds.
Stay tuned.
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#725163 - 05/30/09 01:07 PM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Andrew Aversa
Serious Contributor
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Philadelphia, PA, USA
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Yeah, this is really just testing the waters for me. I tend to think blowing lots of money on promotion is a bad idea. I have made a great overall net profit on my music because I do everything myself and try to focus on just creating an excellent product. Would I sell more if I paid someone thousands to promote my stuff? Probably... but I'd make less of a total profit. So far, no quantifiable results from Jango despite 50+ likes now. I don't like that fans can be "guests" or even anonymous handles.
Brian H: Glad you enjoy SoundTempest 
Edited by Andrew Aversa (05/30/09 01:07 PM)
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#725262 - 05/31/09 12:56 AM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: Andrew Aversa]
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Brian Hazard
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 66
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My results just aren't dramatic enough to suggest foul play. Even if Jango had the inclination, I don't know how they'd pull off getting people from around the world to order my CDs and have email conversations with me (one guy is actually driving me a little crazy). My stats are pretty much in line with others'. Seems far-fetched to me.
My plays ran out a couple days ago, and it looks like I'll be averaging 50 unpaid plays a day. Maybe the number will continue to go up as I get more likes, or maybe it will dwindle down. Time will tell.
Andrew, I wouldn't expect anything out of 50+ likes. I've got 2114 likes now, and you've seen my numbers.
A friend and I tested the bulletin system and suggested some changes, because the bulletins simply aren't being seen. Perhaps once I can communicate reliably with my "fans," I'll buy more plays. In the meantime I need to make a new album! The 1,000 CD Disc Makers prize from the John Lennon Songwriting Contest expires in June of next year.
Brian, I'm anxiously awaiting what you've got in store!
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#725303 - 05/31/09 06:33 AM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: niteshift]
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matanglawin
Serious Contributor
Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 185
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we don't support pay-for-play, but we do play-for-free...
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#725310 - 05/31/09 08:19 AM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: matanglawin]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Brian H,
All they would have to do is play you 1000 times more frequently than you purchased to skew the numbers. They wouldn't need to buy your CD's or anything else. So instead of buying 5000 plays they play you 50,000 or 500,000 or 5,000,000 million times (I doubt they have that sort of traffic though). Logically you'd have more success by default if they did that, but again, it's just speculation. I just know that you having success would be a good sales tool for them. You have no or little success as has been the case, does the opposite. Your results suggest they haven't done much for you and in the end, you're just a cash cow for them. Multiply you times 1000's or more artists and it starts to add up. If Pay to Play worked, the labels would buy up all the time raising the cost per play beyond your means, sort of like Google ads and high traffic search words.
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#725398 - 05/31/09 01:19 PM
Re: Legitimizing Pay-for-Play
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Brian Hazard
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 66
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There is no evidence to suggest that any manipulation is taking place. My stats line up with everyone elses', unless you're suggesting that beyond my secret plays, they're also hiding secret fans, likes, and profile views. What if one of those fans sent me a message? Guess they'd have to hide that too. Hmm... but still, they might come to my web site and contact me there. We're talking about a pretty elaborate scheme, and even if they could pull it off, they still can't get me to show a profit!
From where I'm standing Google Adsense seems to work just fine. The rates for my keywords are still reasonable after all these years.
I'll report back if Jango updates the bulletin system, or if anything significant changes with my results. Otherwise I'll just ride out the free plays for awhile while I focus on other things (mainly thesixtyone.com, as you can tell from my latest Passive Promotion article).
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