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#677355 - 12/26/08 02:58 PM
Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Hi Folks,
This week's pick by Harriet Schock for the Mentor Critique is Wendy Dumond's "999,000 Times." She will be posting her critique on Tuesday, so starting now we'd like to get all of your critiques on this. Remember, lyrics/mp3's are not chosen on what is best or worst, but rather what will make for an interesting educational discussion of what was done well, what can be improved and basic building blocks for writing strong lyrics and songs. Please jump in and then once Harriet posts, see if you noticed the same points.
Thanks again to Harriet and everyone who has already participated. If you didn't get chosen (or didn't enter) and would still like a Professional Critique by Harriet Schock, or take a class in person or one of her on-line courses, please check her website at http://www.harrietschock.com.
For now, let's hear your thoughts on Wendy's entry! Remember that Wendy should not post a response until AFTER Harriet posts her critique.
--------------------------------
999,000 Times
Wendy DuMond
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6876627
Here you come slidin' through the grass,
wearin' your new skin,
lyin' in wait for my memories to fade,
so you can begin again..
(Chorus 1)
I knew you were comin',
I saw the signs,
My heart was pumpin',
When I looked in your eyes.
But they look right past me,
(they) stay on the prize,
Just as they've always done,
the last,
999,000 times...
So don't whisper your silky words,
don't breathe your lies.
I found your old skin on the ground,
it was shriveled and covered in flies..
(Chorus 2)
But I heard you comin',
Cause you speak in rhymes,
And my mind was buzzin',
At the thought of your crimes.
But my heart's grown weary,
of the how's and why's,
Just as it's always done,
the last,
999,000 times...
You know my heart wants you to stay,
and take off your disguise,
but the fangs are a dead give-away,
and there's no room for compromise.
(Chorus 3)
I knew you were comin',
read between the lines,
I heard your drummin',
Trying to hypnotize.
But you look right through me,
See what my mind denies,
Just as you've always done,
the last,
999,000 times...
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney 
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#677377 - 12/26/08 05:40 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Ricki E. Bellos
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/12/08
Posts: 3817
Loc: Wisconsin
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Hi Wendy,
I remember this from when you posted it a while ago. I still like it a lot, especially the rhythm and where you go with the melody. It still takes me by surprise. Lyrically, I like the snake images that you keep throughout the song. My nits are small. In the 1st chorus:
"My heart was pumpin',
When I looked in your eyes.
But they look right past me,
(they) stay on the prize,
Just as they've always done..."
I was under the assumption that the singer was the "prize" so why would the snake look right past her? Do you mean to say that "you see right through me"? You also say "...Trying to hypnotize.
But you look right through me..." in the 3rd chorus. I have the same question there as well.
One other little thing, you might want to go through the whole song and pick past or present and then make sure you stick to that tense.
Overall, this is really cool. The feel of it and your voice make for a very enjoyable listen.
Ricki
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#677394 - 12/26/08 08:25 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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everword
Serious Contributor
Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 50
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What a delightful melody! Sounds like an updated version of something from the roaring twenties.
It almost feels like I've heard it before the way it sticks in my head (and that is surely a good thing!?  )
Though the lyric matches well with the tune, I find some problem areas.
From the outset, there is misinformation. The snake is sliding, has shed its skin, but is suddenly "lying in wait." That seems backwars and needs clarifying.
She knew he was coming...from the signs. Were those signs her heart pumping? If she could look in his eyes, it is obvious he was coming...
Then the eyes look past her to the prize...all I can come up with to make sense out of that is to insert sexual innuendo in ref. to a female part/parts of the anatomy
I'm not enthused with the "speak in rhymes" line or the rhyme with "rhyme" (crime). It doesn't seem to fit. I know there are crimes of the heart, but for some reason its use here just seems askew with the snake theme. Maybe I'm simply thinking snakes don't commit crimes, per se. They just do what snakes do, ie "You knew darn well I was a snake before you let me in!" 
Still and all, I listened to this more than once for the melody/performance alone was, as I said, delightful.
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#677400 - 12/26/08 09:11 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Jean Bullock
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 09/18/01
Posts: 10244
Loc: Anaheim, CA, USA
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Hi, Wendy!
You have a very nice voice. I enjoyed hearing you sing. You painted the picture of the snake very well.
Let me see if I've got the story right. The singer is aware of the less than honorable traits of the other person and has always given in. The game is getting old and tiresome.
At first I thought the prize was some other "victim" the snake had his eye on, but as the song progressed I decided that the "prize" was something he wanted from her. He didn't want her for herself.
"You know my heart wants you to stay,
and take off your disguise,
but the fangs are a dead give-away,
and there's no room for compromise."
It sounds as if she is saying no to the snake here but in the last chorus, it seems as if she is going to give in again regardless of what it says here. I would like to know which it is. If she is going to give in, then perhaps you could rephrase this verse to reflect the possibility that she will give in. Or if you are saying that she won't give in, adjust the last chorus to reflect her refusal.
OR, you may want to consider changing the order of the verses and choruses.
Example:
Here you come slidin' through the grass,
wearin' your new skin,
lyin' in wait for my memories to fade,
so you can begin again..
(Chorus 1)
I knew you were comin',
I saw the signs,
My heart was pumpin',
When I looked in your eyes.
But they look right past me,
(they) stay on the prize,
Just as they've always done,
the last,
999,000 times...
You know my heart wants you to stay,
and take off your disguise,
but the fangs are a dead give-away,
and there's no room for compromise.
(Chorus 3)
I knew you were comin',
read between the lines,
I heard your drummin',
Trying to hypnotize.
But you look right through me,
See what my mind denies,
Just as you've always done,
the last,
999,000 times...
So don't whisper your silky words,
don't breathe your lies.
I found your old skin on the ground,
it was shriveled and covered in flies..
(Chorus 2)
But I heard you comin',
Cause you speak in rhymes,
And my mind was buzzin',
At the thought of your crimes.
But my heart's grown weary,
of the how's and why's,
Just as it's always done,
the last,
999,000 times...
Regarding the music. At first it seems to fit the lyrics and it does sound like she is getting tired of the game. However by the third verse, it was working too well and I was getting tired of it. Perhaps if you took the third verse:
So don't whisper your silky words,
don't breathe your lies.
I found your old skin on the ground,
it was shriveled and covered in flies..
and reworked the melody as a bridge, it would break the monotony a little. It's OK for the melody to underscore the "tiredness" aspect of the lyrics but it's important to keep the interest of the listener. The lyrics of that third verse indicated a change in attitude so that may be the perfect time to engage the listener with a change.
I realize that this is a work tape and some may say that the right arrangement might make a difference. That could be true. Instinctively though, I feel the melody should be able to stand alone and a terrific melody in the bridge is what my ears were asking for. Could just be me. Old school.
Anyway, good luck to you.
JeanB
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#677441 - 12/27/08 05:51 AM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Jean Bullock]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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I tend to agree with most of the points made.
The tense should be constant and the look right through me and stay on the prize lines are not really credible.
The title 999,000 times does not really work for me. Too precise and too exaggerated. I like the snake metaphors and the general idea is pretty clever but it could be expanded more in the song. Currently it just misses out and we lose empathy with the singer.
Whilst this song can work as a swing jazz number it falls a bit flat with the arrangement and production. It is too folky and one dimensional but I realise it is only a rough demo. That said the melody must stand alone and I feel it just falls a bit flat and becomes a bit uninteresting.
I think the snake elements could be used more productively. I would rewrite the song either as a comedy using the snake comparisons to ridicule, or as a serious, deeper more profound metaphor. It has potential either way but needs a lot more work. "The Snake" would be a great title.
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#677495 - 12/27/08 11:51 AM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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Wendy,
I remember a song from the 60's called "96 Tears". In those day, guys like me were glued to the radio to see what new group or song we could discover. That song was really strange and it seemed unlike anything we expected radio DJ's to play. It was created by "? and the Mysterian's" who were probably a bunch of frat boys because I don't think they ever did anything else. But the song was played and it did work. What made it work was simplicity to the extreme. The message: I cry. You made me cry. You are on top now but one day I will be on top and then you will cry. The music is just as simple. I think it was a continuous pattern of a measure of 1/8 notes on the root followed by a measure of 1/8 notes on the minor 7th. It changed up at the bridge. The hook was strange- as if you could count tears that specifically! Here is a youtube link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrTnaPa9BaA&feature=related
OK, so that was a trip down memory lane. And I know how inflation works buy my goodness, 999,000 tears now? I'm not going to say much specifically about your lines although I detect a lot of what I would consider "forced rhymes- that is: rhymes that seem to be there to rhyme at the expense of communication.
You are working with a title that symbolizes a lot of grief over a relationship. It implies that the relationship has caused endless pain. But the working metaphor in the song is that of a serpent. It is sliding through the grass, shedding it's skin, whispering (hissing) promises etc. The problem you have to correct in my opinion is how to make the hook more relevant to your main story. The song is about deception and disappointment and the working metaphor is the snake. Now if you can persuade me that 999,000 tears is somehow connected to the metaphor, I might be convinced to embrace the song. As it is, there is no compelling hook to endorse the song.
Musically, singing "999,000 tears" seems like a mouth full, but that part of the song was the most compelling (musically) for me so you may be on to something. Harriet can probably give you some very specific things to revise that could turn this around.
My biggest problem with the song is that you either have two songs here (one about tears and one about a snake) or you need to figure out a way to make the two ideas work together.
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#677510 - 12/27/08 01:52 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Joy Boy
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 695
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Am I missing the tears?
Hey Wendy,
I'd share Jim's concern about the melody, but I think this is a good idea on a good track.
I think the lyrics have a lot of good imagery, but to me anyway they'e a little confusing because there isn't a definite attitude. It seems like what you're doing is setting up the guy as a snake no one would want to be involved with in the verses, and then having the narrator unable to resist the temptation in the chorus.
But the second chorus is the only one where that's really clear to me. If you used some of the nice imagery to spoon-feed the split between the verse and chorus to the listener, I think it would make the song much more engaging...the old "here I go again."
I was surprised that you're talking about a snake, but the word "temptation" never came up -- or apples or gardens. That's certainly your call, but those images have a lot of resonance for people in this culture -- you can twist them and play with them and people will almost automatically get it.
Boy, this seems like a lot of nits, but one more. The number in the title...why 999,000 times? One more is 999,001. That's not a milestone. But your melody gives you room to make it 999,999 times, one less than the million milestone. And saying "nine hundred ninety nine thousand, nine hundred ninety nine times" just sounds like a boatload of times.
All them nines. 
Anyway, I always say that when people start to rewrite you, you know you're on to something. Good luck with it.
Oh, and nice voice. It reminded me -- old dude that I am -- of Melanie of "Brand New Pair of Rolle Skates" fame.
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#677599 - 12/28/08 05:01 AM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: ]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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We had a lot of people enter something this week.. it would be good for all of them at least to get involved in the critique process. This is a learning excercise where giving the critique itself is far more valuable than the lyric/song chosen. So please get involved and let's keep this program going in 2009!
Could someone here please contact the other entrants and ask them to get involved.
Thanks,
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#677624 - 12/28/08 08:43 AM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Colin Ward
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/31/06
Posts: 4663
Loc: Saint Petersburg. FL
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I like the song and I think it has a lot of potential in a genre that I cannot really put my finger on! The story is one I have seen repeated a lot.....where someone continually gets back together with a snake who doesn't deserve the time of day.
I too am not clear on what the prize is when the snake looks past the singer unless it is a specific part of the anatomy.
Two lines I do not care for are:
"I found your old skin on the ground,
it was shriveled and covered in flies.."
I understand the symbolism but the image is kind of nasty. Maybe something like:
"I think about your old skin,
and the times it made me cry"
The melody, chord progression, timing, etc. sound pretty good. I like the switch from minor to major chord that occurs a couple of times, but it needs to be emphasized more with the instruments so there is no doubt what is happening.
The simple production with acoustic and brushes works O.K. for a demo like this, but I agree with Jim that there is potential for a lot more. Believe it or not I thought of The Turtles "Elenore" when I was trying to think of a production for the song! Elenore
I will be interested in Harriet's analysis.
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#677657 - 12/28/08 10:17 AM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Lynman Bacolor
Serious Contributor
Registered: 03/16/07
Posts: 1215
Loc: Caloocan, Philippines
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Wendy
Thanks for sharing your song and subject this to online tweaking.
The first time I read the title the first song that comes into my mind is the song who made a hit somewhere in the 80's 99 Luftbaloons performed by Nena. Gee how can I forget the unshaven armpit on her concert.
The title seem forever to me because doing it 999k times is like something has to be done repeatedly.
So I listened to your song and the little jazzy treatment with your singing accompanied by a simple guitar strumming and drumbeat does not give me anything that I will associate this song to a person who act like a snake. Just only my opinion.
Here in our culture snake is considered a backstabber person. YOu giving him some favor and after learning your weakness he will take this as an oppurtunity to pull you back from the race. The snake person is worse than your nemesis.
HEres my interpretation of your lyrics.
999,000 Times
Wendy DuMond
Here you come slidin' through the grass,
wearin' your new skin,
lyin' in wait for my memories to fade,
so you can begin again..
This verse really works for a snake, they shed their old skin and start a new life. Insects like tarantula and scorpion also change skin (exoskeleton) similar to some insects before they turns into a mature form they have to molt several times just like snakes.
Just like a predator hes waiting and waiting for the right moment.
(Chorus 1)
I knew you were comin',
I saw the signs,
My heart was pumpin',
When I looked in your eyes.
But they look right past me,
(they) stay on the prize,
Just as they've always done,
the last,
999,000 times...
Im confused here with your 1st chorus because you used the word "they".
So my suggestion can you use the word you instead of they.
Like:
you look right through me
and you stay from the prize
Just as youve always done
999k times
So don't whisper your silky words,
don't breathe your lies.
I found your old skin on the ground,
it was shriveled and covered in flies..
I like the metaphor you use here "silky words" very sssssmoooth with a smooth S, and "dont breathe your lies". Wow! imagining this is like a superhero lier is on the loose again and you cant resist his Phd lying style.
The last line is just fine but in reality if the old skin is shriveled and covered with flies how can you identify it by using your eyes or by closer examination.
Snake change skin and their old skin rarely got shriveled throught the test of time and their old skin are never been visited by flies to plant their eggs because theres no organic material over there for maggots to feed on.
My suggestion stay with the 1st to 3rd line and revised the 4th. You can take it or disregard my sugs.
(Chorus 2)
But I heard you comin',
Cause you speak in rhymes,
And my mind was buzzin',
At the thought of your crimes.
But my heart's grown weary,
of the how's and why's,
Just as it's always done,
the last,
999,000 times...
Who told you the snake was coming? The snake was there waiting for you after he change his skin pretending you dont know him.
My suggestion again take it or leave it.
I knew you were comin',
I saw the signs,
And my mind was buzzin',
At the thought of your crimes.
But my heart's grown weary,
of the how's and why's,
Just as it's always done,
the last,
999,000 times...
You know my heart wants you to stay,
and take off your disguise,
but the fangs are a dead give-away,
and there's no room for compromise.
This is what I like in every story, a salvation after the storm, a hope after the flaw and this make us all humans. This verse to me is like a bridge of a song, in spite of all the bad experiences in spite of all the problems they throw in you you still expect a drop of goodness, or a change of heart.
SO if you are going to revise this verse go what Jesus taught us forvive 999k times. Just like this one...
You know my heart wants you to stay,
so you take off your disguise,
but the fangs are a dead give-away,
still I have rooms for compromise.
(Chorus 3)
I knew you were comin',
read between the lines,
I heard your drummin',
Trying to hypnotize.
But you look right through me,
See what my mind denies,
Just as you've always done,
the last,
999,000 times...
The last chorus heres my sugs.
I knew you were comin',
read between your lines,
I heard your rattlin', (Rattle snake make sense)
Trying to hypnotize.
When you look right through me,
I see your heart denies,
Just as you've always done,
the last,
999,000 times...
Goodluck with your song... Hope this will help. Happy newyear to you
Lynman
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#677673 - 12/28/08 10:46 AM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Lynman Bacolor]
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Lynman Bacolor
Serious Contributor
Registered: 03/16/07
Posts: 1215
Loc: Caloocan, Philippines
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Brian
I already PM them.
Lynman
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#677741 - 12/28/08 05:12 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Lynman Bacolor]
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Kevin Emmrich
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 8632
Loc: Crozet, VA
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OK, here's is what I did.
1.) I listened to the first 1:00 minute to get a quick "first impression"
2.) I then listened to the whole thing
3.) Listen and read along with the lyrics
so,
1.) First impression is that it comes across as a "adult song" done with a "children's song feel". I know you do children's songs so maybe that clouded my judgement.
2.) My listen all the way through still comes away thinking that is leans more towards a novelty feel, which may not be what you wanted. The song also felt long to me -- which means there aren't enough changes to keep my interest up.
3.) It was more fun reading along with the lyrics which means that the lyrics are intriguing and well put together.
Overall, there doesn't seem to be a hook that really captures my attention. Since the lyrics are good, maybe it needs another musical treatment.
Now, I'll go read the others to see if I can agree/disagree with what has already been said.
-- I agree with Ricki and out the "look right past me" -- I thought the singer was the "prize" (other pointed this out, too)
-- I agree with Jim that the phrase "999,000 times" does seem too precise and/or contrived.
-- I think Joe loved that 96 Tears song!!
Kevin
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#677744 - 12/28/08 05:21 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Lynman Bacolor]
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Herbie Gaines
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 2809
Loc: Chicago,IL, USA
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I've listened three times now...and I just don't know what to say...it's very stylistic, has a soft jazzy swingy feel... If a few words were different, the song would still be the same...I don't mean it in a bad way...I don't know what to suggest here, I am not good at rewriting other people's personal songs...It's not amazing OR bad.. it's just right there in the middle...the story is pretty much the same old bad man story. I wasn't trying to not add to the group Brian...sometimes there's just nothing to add ! ! Not a bad little tune Wendy, I wasn't cringing nor jumping out of my chair
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#677761 - 12/28/08 07:05 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Herbie Gaines]
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lucian
Serious Contributor
Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 326
Loc: Camden Town, London
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Wendy, I had a good few listens to this and here are my opinions of it.
It's a nice song. The melody is nice and pleasant, but it doesn't fill me with the desire to hear it over and over again. Having heard some of your other songs, I would say it's a song written from within your comfort zone that you like to stay within. Your voice is wonderful as ever, but sometimes I think perhaps those velvet vocal chords of yours trap you a little with your songwriting and stop you taking songs in a different direction, even when the song is clearly telling you to do so.
To my ears, the song told me that the melodic structure of the verse followed by chorus had reached its end by the 2nd chorus and the song wanted to go in another direction other than another verse at this point. So putting in a 3rd verse at this point made the song become a little tiresome.
The lyrics are OK, but there are some issues, already mentioned, and I don't have a clear idea of the relationship you and this snake have. If the guy's eyes are on the prize (another girl and not you!) it would seem to be confusing as to whether the relationship you have is worthy of a song. A snake is a fair metaphor for a man I think. Men are all low down rotten snakes, it's true. I'm sorry to reveal our secret guys, but we all do, in fact, go to a special snake school when we are 16 and learn how to be sneaky, snidey snakes and how to hide this fact from women.
999,000 times does seem an awful lot of times to have had an encounter such as this with a snake and still he keeps coming back and still you don't hit him with a big stick. As a snake myself, 9 times is more than enough.
Anyway, that's just my honest opinion. I'm Lucian and I talk to my cats too much and eat chocolate on Xmas day even though I know it will give me a migraine, so I don't know so much.
Lucian
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#677823 - 12/29/08 12:02 AM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: lucian]
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Mark Schuessler
Serious Contributor
Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 672
Loc: Lockport, NY, USA
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Wendy:
Thanks for letting us rip your song to...er, critique your song. Here's my take.
Title
-----
I think the title stands out in a crowd, so that’s good. It’s sort of intriguing in that it’s a big and sort of arbitrary number. The number itself doesn’t really have any special significance outside of the context of the story, though. But it is a unique and attention grabbing title.
The Story
------------
I think I understand the story, at least in general. The guy is a snake and he’s back to disappoint you again (like he did the last 999,000 times.) There are a couple of things that aren’t completely clear to me, though. First, what is it that makes him so irresistible? The only thing I noticed was that he whispers silky words – he’s a smooth talker. Most of the song is devoted to developing the snake metaphor. Second, what is the prize that he keeps in sight? I’m not sure what he wants (enough to come back again and again.) Third, what is his disguise? I assumed it was something other than a snake because what guy would disguise himself as a snake to attract women? It seems that he IS a snake so he must be disguised as something else, but what?
There may be good answers to these things in the song. I’m not the smartest or most observant guy in the world but as a listener, I found these things unclear.
Lyrics
--------
I like the whole snake thing. That works. The first verse starts strong and got me interested. The second verse is very strong, I think, with good information and a vivid image of his old, shriveled, fly covered skin. I found the third verse the weakest of the three. I’m not sure how strong the disguise concept is to begin with and “compromise” seems contrived just to complete the rhyme.
I think I would like the chorus lyrics better if I understood what he wants. There are a couple of lines (“they stay on the prize” and “see what my mind denies”) that leave me thinking that I’m missing something. I haven’t read the other comments, so maybe I’m just missing the obvious, but I’ll just come clean and say “I don’t get it” and leave it at that. Hopefully, that’s useful information for you. When my songs are critiqued, that’s one of the things that I find the most useful…things that are not clear. I have come to realize that I am unconsciously filling in missing information (but the listener is out of luck!)
Overall, I think you do a real good job of fitting your lyrics to your melody (on this song and on your other songs.) I know this makes it more difficult to write lyrics that do everything you want them to do because you need the right number of syllables with the proper accent on each syllable and each word must lead effortlessly into the next for that great singability. But I guess that’s the challenge.
Music
-------
I liked the music but nothing really stuck in my head after I finished listening several times. I thought the chord change at the top of the chorus was interesting. As a vehicle to sing the lyrics I think the music works…there was just nothing about it that really grabbed me or connected with me emotionally. (Just to be clear, I can recall the melody but it isn’t playing over and over in my head without my consent!)
Vocals
-------
Excellent vocals. You have a beautiful voice and that made this song attractive to listen to.
Bottom Line
---------------
I like the song. It is well crafted and has an interesting title. If I were looking for ways to improve it, I would try to clarify the story a little and would try to get at least one musical hook that gets in the listeners head and won’t go away.
Mark
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#677832 - 12/29/08 04:42 AM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Mark Schuessler]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Thanks Lynman and thanks to those who are getting involved. Let's keep folks coming!
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#677848 - 12/29/08 07:53 AM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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"Tampa Stan" Good
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 26755
Loc: Tampa, Florida since 1973
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HiDee & Congrats, Mz WenD!
Great Concept & Hook!
V1 sets it all up Splendidly! Line 1's a great "Grabber" & Line 2 makes-certain we're talkin' about Someone Serpentine! Line 3's slightly "off" 'cuz Slitherin'-Thru-the-Grass ISN'T "Lyin' in-wait" yet it's not THAT Obvious or distracting, & the Intraline Rhyme's a Dandy..& ya Do It Again in Line 4 w/"Begin Again".
We're well-informed What's Happening...from the Get-Go!
Chorus 1 is a Good Rabbit's-Eye View of the Agonizin'.
(Tho "The Prize" isn't all that Obvious. IF Mr.Snake's attention is "Elsewhere"..as in "look right past me"...this feels a bit
"off".) Still.."being used" comes immediately to-mind..& the Image of a Meal-Entrapped got fairly-well Presented here. The Monster-Numerical Hook's well-placed..& Unforgettable. (Irony's always Unforgettable when it's WAYyyyy Outta-Proportion to Reality.)
Next Verse...Hmmm. Snakes don't Speak, so "silky words" felt "off" a scosh...tho "whisper" has that nice Hissss to it & I think ya get away with the Line, as-penned. "Don't breathe your lies"...now THERE's a Dandy Line that works. I've seen Many-a-Snakeskin over the years..never one "with flies"..BUT here it generates a Really Powerful Image & furthers the Storyline successfully.
Chorus 2..I like it's Changing Nature, More Details & Plotline Development. Line 1, Tenses change from Future to Past..so "He's Here." Line 2, again, "speak in rhymes" ISN'T Snakelike Behavior....&..confuses a bit. I'm assuming He's Poetic/Mystical..(But "Quiet"? Got my doubts.) The next couplet..."buzzin'"..I got the image SHE's kinda Rattlesnake-Like herself.."at the thought of your crimes". The rest of the Chorus does a good job describing her Overall Reaction to all that's gone-before/& her resignation that this has happened So Many Times Before..& to steal a good Dolly Hook, "Here You Come Again".
Musically, My Mind wanted to hear a wee-bitta SOLO after this Second Chorus..OR a wee bitta Sung Bridge Here. It's currently an AAA Format..& not too-shabby...but a wee Kicker here would be (JMO) an Improvement. The (Pretty-Sparse) Music behind the Vocals is pleasant-enough..tho I'd yearn for more "Something"...in the Finished Product. (The Retro Touches bring a Clarinet to-mind...for that "Solo" Sug.)
I like the Humorous Touch in V3...Singer's lookin' Stronger-&-Wiser as she RECOGNIZES this Ain't Gonna Work Out, even though She's Attracted, BUT what with those FANGS & All... "No room for compromise"... She's added-up alla Mr. Snake's Attributes & it's OVER. (I think this Resonates with Most ALL of the Gals in The Audience/She gets My Respect, as a Guy.)
Chorus 3..(Sung-Version, ya recycled Ch 2). I'd prefer the Written-One, WITH "Rattlin'" in-place of "Drummin'".
All-in-All, (Warts-&-All), this is a really COOL Song...(In a Good Way). (What IS there about the Number NINE...it's worked for "96 Tears".."Love Potion Number Nine"...Lennon's "9" Song...
Wendy's taken "9" just-shy of a Million, & I hope she sells that many copies when she gets the Kinks outta this Baby.)
Good Luck with it..(& I'd add a SPOKEN "HISSSSSSS" at the Very Tail of the Recordin'..too!)
Big Hugs,
Stan
_________________________
I try to write For The Ages, yet I'm aware about the only 200-year-old Pop Songs that have survived are Nursery Rhymes....
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#677859 - 12/29/08 08:59 AM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: ]
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Brenda152
Serious Contributor
Registered: 10/26/06
Posts: 840
Loc: San Antonio,TX USA
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I really enjoyed this! At first when I saw that title, I thought that might
be a bit of a mouthful, but it works out very well. Like the vibe and feel of
the song, but it starts to get boring and I think it would help if you threw
in some variation in the music somewhere in the song. Nothing in your lyric bothered
me it's written in a very interesting way and I know the guy you're singin' about. LOL I don't see that your lyric should spell everything out to the listener, not for the genre you are writing this one for.
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#677862 - 12/29/08 09:23 AM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Brenda152]
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Caroline
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3262
Loc: Texas
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OK, I'm going to be the one hwo loves the title...figures! I think it works, I've read and heard other songs on the boards and elsewhere with precise titles, ex. "a million tears from now" and I don't think that would make a difference to a listener.
I do agree that maybe more melodic shanges, it seems a bit mundane or monotonous once the chorus comes in, needs some lift. A little more pick up here would help, also on the title line in the chorus, maybe a little more umph, attitude, or something, that's where it seems to fall the most, imo. The second verse, the shriveled and covered in flies, seems icky, but I love it. It's a good image, but not sure why it's needed. But still, I don't think it really hurts anything.
The song doesn't seem too long to me, actually I was waiting for a bridge, something to take it in a new direction, or a change of pace.
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#678097 - 12/30/08 04:24 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Caroline]
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harriet schock
JPF Mentor
Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 102
Loc: L.A., CA 90036
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999,000 Times
Wendy DuMond
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6876627
Here you come slidin' through the grass,
wearin' your new skin,
lyin' in wait for my memories to fade,
so you can begin again..
(Chorus 1)
I knew you were comin', --change chord to dom 7th or something
I saw the signs,
My heart was pumpin',
When I looked in your eyes.
But they look right past me, --dom 7th
(they) stay on the prize,
Just as they've always done, --can't tell if you're going to a minor. Change to major interval. Sounds flat, but I suspect minor and I can't hear the 3rd.
the last,
999,000 times...
So don't whisper your silky words,
don't breathe your lies.
I found your old skin on the ground,
it was shriveled and covered in flies..
(Chorus 2)
But I heard you comin',
Cause you speak in rhymes,
And my mind was buzzin',
At the thought of your crimes.
But my heart's grown weary,
of the how's and why's,
Just as it's always done,
the last,
999,000 times...
You know my heart wants you to stay, --yes, make it a bridge with different music--and rewrite the words
and take off your disguise,
but the fangs are a dead give-away,
and there's no room for compromise.
(Chorus 3)
I knew you were comin',
read between the lines,
I heard your drummin',
Trying to hypnotize.
But you look right through me,
See what my mind denies,
Just as you've always done,
the last,
999,000 times...
As Brian has pointed out, this site is more about learning to critique than being chosen. I've noticed that over the time we've been up, some of you guys have become expert at critiquing. This will help your songwriting, because you'll know what to learn from in others and what to shy away from as well as what to censor and what to keep in your own writing. Rather than pointing out whose critiques were stellar, I'll just give you mine, and if you said the same thing and think that means you're stellar, then you'll know. Otherwise, we could both be on the wrong page. But let's start with a few points about which there has been consensus among you and with which I also agree. First of all, Wendy needs to turn that third verse into a bridge musically. We definitely need some melodic and harmonic variation there. I think the lyrics to the bridge need to be rewritten, as well, which means Wendy can simply write a new bridge both musically and lyrically. It's unclear what the disguise is and "no room for compromise" is a bit off the subject. I like the fangs being a dead giveaway if she could work them in another way or place. But the bridge should be a different look at this story as well as a new melody.
Wendy, in the new bridge which I'd like for you to write, maybe you could say you see the real guy, beneath the snake persona he keeps being and that's what keeps you hooked but the minute you fall for it, the snake comes back into the picture. You have a rather universal story here, and even without telling us much about him, as one critiquer wanted you to do, we get the picture. Everyone's been through this at least once--both women and men. In the case of women, the man comes on like he's really interested in the woman, but once he's achieved the conquest, or whatever he was really there for, he appears to be a snake again. And she keeps falling for it time and time again. It's no wonder a snake appears in Genesis to tempt Eve. When the man is the main character, the woman is the snake who is really after his money or a similar conquest. He keeps seeing the damaged little girl underneath and falls for it over and over in an attempt to save her. That's why I think in the bridge, you could have some reason why she keeps giving in to this despicable character. Show us what she sees and finds irresistible. It has to be more than his charms. Or is my memory just bad?
I also agree that what he's looking past toward the prize is not clear. Neither is the fact that he sees what your mind denies. He sees these things about himself? What do these lines mean?
Harmonically, in the verse, the first and fifth lines should change to a dominant seventh chord at the end just for some variation. In the first verse, this would occur on the words "comin" and "past me." I think this would help. Also, when you go to the word "done" at the end of the seventh line of each chorus, you should simply stay on the major chord. Going to that minor interval simply sounds like you're singing flat, and I know you changed chords there, but either I can't hear the third of the chord of it's just not a good idea. A major chord has been established and it sounds really odd to go to that minor interval in the melody.
For the record, the Dolly Parton hit, "Here You Come Again" was written by Barry Mann and Cynthia Weil, even though Dolly is a wonderful writer. She simply didn't write that one. I wanted to remind you all of that. And the structure of this song of Wendy's is ABABAB, not AAAA. I am suggesting she change it to ABABCB.
Regarding the flies on the shed skin of the snake, I think she can get away with this. Being not as familiar with the behavior and natural habitats of flies and maggots as some of you, I think it works fine. It reminds me of the TS Eliot term, "objective correlative," which Eliot explains in "Hamlet and His Problems," this way:
"The only way of expressing emotion in the form of art is by finding an 'objective correlative'; in other words, a set of objects, a situation, a chain of events which shall be the formula of that particular emotion; such that when the external facts, which must terminate in sensory experience, are given, the emotion is immediately evoked." T.S. Eliot
I believe the snake skin covered with flies is an excellent "objective correlative." The fact that I've never seen one covered with flies doesn't detract from the disgust and squirmy feeling evoked by the image.
In summary, I think if I heard this from a writer whose work I didn't know, I'd think "This person can write." What might keep it from going the distance are thing things we've pointed out. Change them and you might have something which, when produced, could find a film or TV placement. There are certainly plenty of mental monologues the story would fit.
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#678099 - 12/30/08 04:31 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Caroline]
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Scott Campbell
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 10861
Loc: Lakeland, FL, USA
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Hi Wendy:
Getting to this late - was out of town.....
I love the tune to this. I think if it was given a full production, maybe with an instrumental break, any of the issues related to not enough variation would probably go away.
As to the lyric, I'm finding it easier to analyze if I leave out the choruses:
Here you come slidin' through the grass,
wearin' your new skin,
lyin' in wait for my memories to fade,
so you can begin again..
So don't whisper your silky words,
don't breathe your lies.
I found your old skin on the ground,
it was shriveled and covered in flies..
You know my heart wants you to stay,
and take off your disguise,
but the fangs are a dead give-away,
and there's no room for compromise.
When I look at it this way, the only thing I'd probably change is the last two lines of V3. Why? Because they seem to go in about the same direction as the last two lines of V2. Also, I think you could use a bigger punch there at the end. The previous two lines are setting us up for a bigger revelation than the one you give.
As for the choruses: I guess these are evolving choruses. I like those just fine. And I like the hook too. I wonder if there isn't another one that would tie better to the snake metaphor though. That would really pull the whole thing together.....
It actually works well for me as is - just trying to think of ways to make something good into something better....
You always do cool stuff and this is no exception...
Scott
EDIT: Dang - bad timing on my part. I hit submit and then saw Harriet beat me by several minutes. Sorry 'bout that
Edited by Scott Campbell (12/30/08 04:34 PM)
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#678101 - 12/30/08 05:08 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Wendy D
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 1909
Loc: Atlanta, GA USA
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Thanks to everyone, especially Harriet, for your kind critiques. I'm still at work right now, but will post individual responses when I get home this evening.
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#678159 - 12/31/08 12:02 AM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Wendy D
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 1909
Loc: Atlanta, GA USA
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This song "arrived" in my head one day at work. I was sick with a migraine and was lying on the sofa in the Attorney Lounge wondering if I could get up to drive myself home, when the first verse about the snake came into my head. Talk about bad timing. I grabbed a pen and noted what I had on my hand (no paper in the attorney lounge that day). I recall writing "snake" and "999,000 times" or something along those lines. I think this song is a reflection of my mental struggle with songwriting. Everytime I swear it off and decide to quit, here comes the snake..telling me it's easy and putting an idea in my head. But that snake is a big liar!
My "big picture" concept for this was that it should be smart, fun, and a bit tongue-in-cheek. The 999,000 times thing was supposed to be a bit exaggerated. I wanted it to be very obvious that both the singer and listener know that this guy is a snake. It was influenced greatly by Leonard Cohen's song, Blue Alert. I was learning how to play it at the time I wrote this. But "999,000" is pretty pale in comparison.
The line, "you look right past me" was intended to mean that the snake is never really seeking the woman. He wants the hunt or the seduction. My former Italian mother-in-law used to say "men are all hunters, and all women are prostitutes." I suppose that could have contributed to the many reasons why I'm not married to her son now..(but that's another story).
The line, "see what my mind denies" is supposed to mean that the snake sees past her posturing and knows that the woman still loves him. She thinks she doesn't love him, but he (the snake) knows she still does. So the snake knows her heart better than she does. Now why wasn't that obvious?
I do have an alternate musical arrangement for this. Obviously, I'm not a musician, so my arrangements tend to be pretty simple. I can plunk around on my guitar enough to communicate a melody, but the melodies I usually come-up with can't replicate what I hear in my head. The work tape for this was never revised with the other arrangement because I've been stuck on the song in general. I've never been satisfied with the language in the lyric, especially the last verse, but couldn't really decide how to change this in order to make it better. My original idea was to imply that she gave-in again at the end, but I was never sure about doing that. It seemed like the song would have no point if I did that. But it also didn't seem honest to make her suddenly grow a spine either.
The current arrangement is a minor arrangment for the verses (Am, Dm, and E7) and the present chorus is A7, D7, E7. It's not a minor chord in the chorus. I probably was singing it flat, as Harriet pointed out. My revised arrangement has a G7, C7, B7, and E7 in the chorus.
I had an ephinany the other night about my songwriting. I have not listened to mainstream radio in years. I don't listen to contemporary country music. I tend to listen mostly to folk music, Americana, gospel, and old classic country music. Lately I've been working on a melody for a retro sounding song and downloaded some Patsy Cline, Patsy Montana, and Kitty Wells lyrics from the net to get some cues/inspiration. I did not find one song by any of these artists that had a bridge. I went through our church hymnal and looked at the songs in our hymnal. I did not find one song with a bridge in our hymnal. I believe because these are my influences, I tend to hear my tunes without any kind of bridge. I'm not sure what the bridge is supposed to do, when you need one, etc. Also, it's such a struggle to come-up with music for the melody, I'm just not sure where to go with the music on a bridge. I realize that I have to start thinking outside my songwriting box and writing bridges.
Also, I did not actually play this. I can't play this in time unless I sing along. I record in Audacity but have never been able to get the click track to work. I think this is because of the version of Audacity I have on my computer. After I downloaded Audacity, I got a really bad virus on my machine, so I've decided not to dowload whatever version I need for the click track to work. Rob L. did the guitar and drum track on this for me. It would have been really hateful for you guys to have to listen to me plunk my way through this.
Thanks to everyone, and to Harriet for your time and thoughts. I'll now respond to you guys individually too.
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#678185 - 12/31/08 05:30 AM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Wendy D]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Thanks Wendy for the insight and explanation as to how this song was crafted. It is amazing how inspiration can come at any time and from almost any situation. You raise a number of points in your post which I think are important and can be learned from.
By your own admission your musical diet is perhaps a bit limited. Easily sorted.....
I would suggest that as part of the learning curve you may need to broaden horizons and listen to a more diverse range of music. This will give you a better insight into the craft. It is hard to write bridges etc when your own personal listening preferences do not contain good examples.
That said certain songs do not need a bridge or even a chorus. Many examples of great songs that do not have bridges or choruses are out there. It all boils down to personal preferences and what works for the circumstances. It is important to know how to craft a bridge and chorus however.
Re flat singing.....this could actually be a happy accident. Try the minor chord as per the suggestions made it might work better than your present chords. A Jazz arrangement has a habit of doing that anyways LOL.
I see the possibility of two songs being created from your embryonic song. One can be a tongue in cheek comedy about an evil snake, tempting and hypnotising and trying to inject poison but the singer can see this a mile away. The other can be a straight forward love gone bad song with many poetic snake metaphors giving us much food for thought.
You have to decide one or the other... or both.
Re a click track......It is not always necessary to use a click track. Sometimes a strict tempo throughout can sound robotic and clinical. Sometimes freeform with its various inflections and subtle tempo changes sounds more natural.
Re Audacity....I would doubt that Audacity was responsible for your virus and suspect that it is just coincidental. More likely the virus is from another source. That said the Audacity new beta version is a bit unstable and is prone to crashes and glitches. Better to use an older version that is stable and has a proven track record. You may have to avoid the click track version. No great loss as a click track can be easily made using a keyboard or drum machine. There are many good Audacity tutorials offering help and tips about this and other subjects they are free and easy to find...just google Audacity tutorials.
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#678332 - 12/31/08 06:35 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Teddie Cochran Music
Serious Contributor
Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 374
Loc: Oroville, CA, USA
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999,000 Times
Wendy DuMond
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6876627
Here you come slidin' through the grass,
wearin' your new skin,
lyin' in wait for my memories to fade,
so you can begin again..
(Chorus 1)
I knew you were comin',
I saw the signs,
My heart was pumpin',
When I looked in your eyes.
But they look right past me,
(they) stay on the prize,
Just as they've always done,
the last,
999,000 times...
So don't whisper your silky words,
don't breathe your lies.
I found your old skin on the ground,
it was shriveled and covered in flies..
(Chorus 2)
But I heard you comin',
Cause you speak in rhymes,
And my mind was buzzin',
At the thought of your crimes.
But my heart's grown weary,
of the how's and why's,
Just as it's always done,
the last,
999,000 times...
You know my heart wants you to stay,
and take off your disguise,
but the fangs are a dead give-away,
and there's no room for compromise.
(Chorus 3)
I knew you were comin',
read between the lines,
I heard your drummin',
Trying to hypnotize.
But you look right through me,
See what my mind denies,
Just as you've always done,
the last,
999,000 times...
I compliment this works as it has been, IMO, well crafted. These are my thoughts overall or questions that arise when reading this lyric. I think a bridge of a musical nature would be quite effective. There are a number of ways to add sub-hooks in the music to enhance the lyric. I also think the progression could have much more pizzazz. It's a jazz tune so jazz it up.
The subject matter brought questions to me; Is this about a snake literally? I don’t think so although some might interpret it as such. I would rather think this is about a relationship the author’s character has with a person they know. The images created are how the subject has proven himself or herself to be “999,000 times”. Is the subject a lover, a repeat stranger at an establishment trying to pick up the narrator or are we talking about the devil himself? These are all possibilities and I enjoy a lyric that sparks ones imagination and allows them to relate it to their own life and experiences. I find the hook “999,000 times” excellent in its allure. And it has been well executed in this piece.
If this is a work that might be pitched commercially I might caution. Depending on the genre it day views, there may be a tad bit too much left to the imagination of the listener. My vote, leave it alone!
Best of Luck with it!
Regards,
Teddie Cochran
http://www.teddiecochran-music.com
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#678356 - 12/31/08 09:54 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Teddie Cochran Music]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Thanks for another great critique Harriet! And thanks to all of those participating. We've had another very educational year here. I hope we can continue to build on it all in 2009!
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#678357 - 12/31/08 10:33 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Ricki E. Bellos]
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Wendy D
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 1909
Loc: Atlanta, GA USA
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Hey Ricki,
Thanks for the critique (and giving this another listen). I think I addressed your question about the "prize" in my overall message. It's meant to be "the hunt or seduction." I guess I thought the snake enjoyed the chase or dance, but once he had her, he became disinterested.
That is a good point about picking a tense. Sometimes I forget that you can't break the good sound rules of writing, even in a song lyric.
I appreciate your time and thoughts.
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#678358 - 12/31/08 10:40 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: everword]
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Wendy D
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 1909
Loc: Atlanta, GA USA
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Hello Everword,
Thanks for listening to my tune and taking the time to provide a critique. Yes, the snake sure is slippery! He's doing all kinds of things. Actually, he shed his skin after he slithered up and laid around waiting for his victim. It's all supposed to be very tongue in cheek. I guess I wasn't thinking of any kind of chronology in terms of the snake's appearances in her life, but that's a good point. Guess I'd better get the story straight.
The so-called prize is just meant to refer to the hunt or seduction. He sees her as a conquest and once he defeats her, he's gone again. At least that's what I was trying to say.
Thanks for your thoughts and for taking the time to post a critique.
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#678359 - 12/31/08 10:48 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Jean Bullock]
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Wendy D
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 1909
Loc: Atlanta, GA USA
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Jean,
Thank you for listening and for your thoughts. You picked-up on the ambiguity in this. I was initially trying to make it seem in the end that she gave-in to the snake once more. I could never decide if that should be the ending though. It made the song seem pointless. On the other hand, I don't feel good about making up a happy ending just for the sake of doing so. That doesn't seem very honest. The song is really about honesty. The singer and her listener all are "in" on the the joke and the joke is on her. She's being a little self-deprecating. I do like the idea of changing the order of the verses. The verses need some work though, and I do need a bridge. I'm not very musically literate, so it's going to be hard for me to figure out where to go with a bridge and what to write.
Anyway, thanks again for your time and thoughts.
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#678360 - 12/31/08 10:59 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Wendy D
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 1909
Loc: Atlanta, GA USA
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Big Jim,
Thanks for both of your posts on this. I will have to think about having two snake tunes. It's kind of a cool idea. It could at least be a good writing exercise!
I wish I had your performing and writing experience. I'm just a beginner in every way. I got a guitar in 2006 and started taking lessons about a year later. I started writing songs a little over a year ago. I have so much to learn. But I also have a family and a job, so I learn at a pretty slow pace. I'm so glad I found JPF though. You guys are helping me learn much more quickly than if I was doing it on my own.
I honestly don't know where the idea of her taking him back 999,000 times came from. It is a huge exaggeration, for sure and probably not the best song hook, especially for a song about a snake. Perhaps it was a bit ambitious of me to try and pull together these two different ideas. It could be that this one will go to Mark Kaufman's Graveyard of Songs before all is said and done:) But I appreciate your time and the professional ears.
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#678413 - 01/01/09 09:06 AM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Wendy D]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Thanks Wendy. This is a great exercise and we all learn. Let me tell you though that if this song was headed for the "graveyard" then Harriet would not have picked it. I think it has got potential but needs a bit of work. It would be neat if you came up with two different songs, both could be pretty good in their own right. I like the tongue in cheek comedy aspect and think it could be a winner. Being tempted by a snake has all sorts of creative possibilities. Slithering, writhing, wriggling, injecting poison, crushing, hypnotising, stalking, ambushing, corrupting, taking a bite from the apple, silent, lying in wait etc etc all great images....food for thought.
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#678467 - 01/01/09 02:49 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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Wendy D
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 1909
Loc: Atlanta, GA USA
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Samuel Joe,
Thanks for your critique. You are probably on the money with some of the lines having forced rhymes. This was really a first draft of this lyric. I got stuck on the overall message of the song and couldn't figure out where it was headed, so I never really revised it much. You can tell I wasn't sold on my lyric because when I sang the last verse, I couldn't remember what I'd written and just improvised, based on stuff from the earlier verses. The written lyric for the last verse, which is the weakest by far, is not what I sang.
The 999,000 times is just an obvious, self-deprecating thing. I really don't know where that came from, but that was what I heard in my head. Maybe it was having had a headache for what seemed like the 999th thousand time:) It's supposed to be sarcastic, though I'm not sure that's the right word. So is the snake metaphor. I think that's how they kind of work together. They are both a little over the top.
Maybe if the lyric were a bit stronger and there was a bridge, as Harriet has suggested (showing why she can't resist him) I can pull these two ideas together a bit more and make it flow better.
Thanks again for your post. I'll have to listen to 96 Tears now. When my older daughter was a toddler (she's 11 now) the classic rock station in Atlanta used to play 96 Tears all the time. My daughter loved to sing along to it, especially the "cry, cry, cry" part. I guess there was something so catchy and simple about that tune that even a little kid could relate to it.
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#678475 - 01/01/09 03:07 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: ]
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Wendy D
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 1909
Loc: Atlanta, GA USA
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Hi Joyboy! That's in interesting handle you've given yourself.
Thanks for commenting on this. I think everyone was pretty much right on the money with how to improve my song. It's funny, but I never really thought much about adding the traditional snake images, like temptation, apples, etc. I guess I was thinking of the snake as a hunter who was able to fool the singer by changing his skin and thereby convincing her (though not very well) he was a changed man. I do think more of that snake stuff could be worked-in. She described him as a snake because in her heart, that's what he is. The song is about her and her battle within herself. She's being a bit hard on herself and letting the audience in on it. So the 999,000 times is just part of that overall "I'm an idiot, let me show you just how bad an idiot I am" message. At least I think that's what I was shooting for.
I had to go listen to Melanie on YouTube. I recall that song from when I was a really young kid. She has a nice voice, so I take that as a really nice compliment.
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#678490 - 01/01/09 04:44 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Joy Boy
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 695
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Hey Wendy,
First, thanks to you for doing this -- and I got a big smile out of the kitten doing pushups. My cat is way too lazy for calisthenics.
On your post with Big Jim about the 999,000 being a huge exaggeration to make a point, I'd just like to reiterate the idea of 999,999 times.
I guess I get the feeling she's either going to try to do something different this time or she's at least aware of what's going on this time.
Basically, saying it feels like this is the millionth time she's going through the same thing gives some significance to this time as opposed to all the times before. She does say her heart has grown weary.
Anyway good luck to you, and thanks again -- this was an interesting critique.
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#678542 - 01/01/09 11:17 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Lynman Bacolor]
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Wendy D
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 1909
Loc: Atlanta, GA USA
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Lynman,
Thanks for your critique. That's very interesting how different cultures perceive snakes. I never saw Nena in concert. Glad I didn't see the unshaven armpit..I'd probably still be having nightmares!
This was supposed to be a jazzy type tune with the singer knowing in her heart of hearts that the man is going to be a backstabber and betrayer. He is only after the conquest, and once he gets that, he's gone. She is mad at herself for taking him back with that knowledge. The 999K times is just a sarcastic way to chide herself for not being able to resist him.
I've known lots of women who talk of how they hate some guy like this. They will talk tough but when he calls, they are off to the races again. It's kind of like that thing of knowing when someone has cancer and expecting them to die. Knowing what to expect doesn't really change the outcome. In this case, the woman wants to do something with that knowledge, but it's hard for her to resist him. He is a PhD liar as you said. I also like some of your lyrical suggestions too. Thanks so much for your thoughts on this.
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#678544 - 01/01/09 11:21 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Colin Ward]
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Wendy D
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 1909
Loc: Atlanta, GA USA
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Colin,
I watched that YouTube video of Elenore. What a cool song. The singer sure had a great voice too.
The prize is just the conquest, not a part of her anatomy although I guess the overall anatomy does play into that. I know some people did not like the line about the snake skin. I guess I was trying to imply that he was full of decay and what he's selling is old news, though he shed the old skin for a new one.
Thanks for coming by to listen and add a critique.
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#678546 - 01/01/09 11:29 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
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Wendy D
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 1909
Loc: Atlanta, GA USA
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Kevin,
I think you pointed out some important things. I did not want this to sound like a novelty or kids song. I suppose you might have gotten that from the arrangement. That was not my intention however, so I know I really need to write a nice bridge and rework the 2nd verse. I do have a slightly different arrangement written for this, but I never recorded it because I got stuck on the lyric and trying to decide where to go with it.
I do think the 999K times hook can work. As I've said, it's supposed to be a bit sarcastic, but not literal. The woman is calling him a snake in her mind. It's about her battle with her weakness for him.
Thanks for giving it a listen and taking the time to critique.
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#678547 - 01/01/09 11:37 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Herbie Gaines]
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Wendy D
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 1909
Loc: Atlanta, GA USA
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Hey Herbie,
Thanks for saying it didn't make you cringe or jump out of your chair. This is not "personal" tune in that it's about me. I was trying for a new take the "bad old man" from a woman's perspective. This is a woman with knowledge. She hates him, hates herself, and hates her addiction to him. In essence, I was trying for smart, clever, and funny. However I guess I fell down on the job and it's just blah and boring. Hopefully with everyone's help and insights I can rework it into something a bit more interesting.
I totally understand about having nothing to say too. I have a hard time with the mentor forum because a lot of times, what I would say is usually already echoed in someone elses critique. I feel like you have to come-up with something different, but maybe it's more of a consensus thing. Maybe if everyone says something similar, the writer is getting a pretty accurate picture from a variety of sources and that's a good thing.
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#678549 - 01/01/09 11:49 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: lucian]
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Wendy D
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 1909
Loc: Atlanta, GA USA
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Lucian,
Thanks for giving this one a listen. If you got a migraine, I hope it didn't last too long. I get them too. They are pretty hateful. This song actually came into my head while I was having one.
I don't have any cats to talk to, but I do have a little girl who talks all the time..and another one who won't listen to me. I suppose that's a bit like having a cat.
You are correct in that the version of this song was written from within my comfort zone, but it's not a vocal one, it's a music theory one. I'm a total beginner when it comes to music and songwriting. Long ago, I used to fancy myself a writer, but when the kids came along, I gave that up. I do the best I can musically, but I really don't know what I'm doing theory wise. I just try to replicate whatever tune I hear in my head along with the words. Sometimes I have more success than others.
I'm not going to mention the whole 999K times or the snake issue since I would just be repeating all the other posts I've done thus far. I don't think all men are snakes. I happen to be married to a pretty nice man and he's not at all reptilian.
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#678600 - 01/02/09 11:53 AM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Melle
Casual Observer
Registered: 12/20/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Denver, CO
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It's refreshing to hear someone writing in a jazz/50's rhythm and blues vein. So this feels like a vampire ballad and as I looked at the words after listening that seems confirmed.
I love how the bouncy rhythm collides with gothic lyrics. very cool.
I hear a bridge somewhere after the second verse or an instrumental solo would would work too. It all sort of has a timeless quality.
If I were producing I'd probably up the tempo.
Nice work.
_________________________
Melle on MySpaceMelle on Twitter"In every work of genius we recognize our own rejected thoughts; they come back to us with a certain alienated majesty" - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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#678713 - 01/02/09 08:21 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Mark Schuessler]
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Wendy D
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 1909
Loc: Atlanta, GA USA
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Mark,
Thanks for dropping by to add your thoughts. You are correct in that the title is just supposed to be a big number. It's really just a vehicle to illustrate how many times she keeps allowing herself to give-in to the snake. There's supposed to be some humor in it, but perhaps there's just not enough humor.
The story is kind of weak. We see the guy as a snake and the woman calling him that, but there's not all that much to show why she can't resist him. That's a valid point.
The music is obviously another weakness and needs some tweaking. I will be working on that and also a lyrical revision.
Thanks again for your time and critique.
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#678714 - 01/02/09 08:30 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: ]
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Wendy D
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 1909
Loc: Atlanta, GA USA
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Howdy Stan,
Thanks for your in-depth critique here. You pretty much got the picture of what I was trying to do with this. Obviously, I now need to decide what about the snake she likes and make the last verse, where she kicks him to the curb, resonate more. I like some of your suggestions to clear up the lyric as well.
I guess I need to learn clarinet now. It really would help to add interest to have a horn play some of the melody in either a musical bridge or during a bridge with singing. That's a really good suggestion.
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#678715 - 01/02/09 08:32 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Brenda152]
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Wendy D
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 1909
Loc: Atlanta, GA USA
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Hey Brenda,
Thanks for listening to this. I agree that the music doesn't really carry it all the way. I'll be working on it.
Yes, we all know this guy. Thanks again for posting!
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#678717 - 01/02/09 08:35 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Caroline]
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Wendy D
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 1909
Loc: Atlanta, GA USA
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Caroline,
Thanks for coming by and posting a critique. I need to start looking at your lyrics. I know you typically write bridges in your songs. I really need some guidance with that. I'm not inclined to try to write them, so I need to branch out.
I have lots to work on now, thanks to all of you guys!
Thanks again for adding your thoughts.
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#678821 - 01/03/09 09:01 AM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Wendy D]
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Caroline
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3262
Loc: Texas
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Wendy, I don't always write bridges, in fact, I'm trying to get away form them for a few lyrics just to challenge myself to come up with something new. But, I have been oh, so guilty of following a formula.
It's easy to say I wanted to hear something else in yours, as opposed to mine, but I guess here, I really just wanted that lift near the end. Something to say she's chopping the ties with him, or that she is gonna turn his scaly butt into a stylish pair of boots and get on with her life, lol!
Edited by Caroline (01/03/09 09:02 AM)
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#678870 - 01/03/09 12:31 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: harriet schock]
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Wendy D
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 1909
Loc: Atlanta, GA USA
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Harriet,
Thanks for spending your time on this one. I hope I can rewrite it and incorporate the changes you suggested. My alternate arrangement to this has lots more 7 chords in the chorus. I just looked over your notes on the lyric and realized in my original post I was incorrect. The line there where you've marked to change to dom 7th is a minor. It's going back to Am there. It's been so long since I played around with this song, I forgot how it goes.
Actually on the words "comin" and "past me" I think those are 7 chords. I think both of those verses start or land on A7. Maybe you weren't hearing them because of my singing. I sing in the church choir and about half of the folks either sing off key or flat. I think they are rubbing off on me.
I'm still working on Blue Alert. Maybe as I really master that song, I can come back around to this and find the right music/words for the bridge. I've found that most of my songs are inspired by other songs I hear. I think since I started writing songs, especially lately, I'm listening to the music and the melody more. Before I tried to write songs, as a listener, I paid much more attention to the words as opposed to the music.
As Big Jim suggested however, I do need to expand the portfolio of what I'm listening to. I suppose I also need to "bang around on my guitar" more as well as Lucian suggested. I think I get stuck sometimes because I only know a few basic chords. After a while, you tend to write the same thing over and over if you don't experiment.
Again, I really appreciate your time and expertise. At one point, I didn't think this one was worth redoing, but I'm encouraged by what you said. It's like getting a second wind in the middle of a marathon.
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#678885 - 01/03/09 12:55 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Scott Campbell]
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Wendy D
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 1909
Loc: Atlanta, GA USA
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Scott,
I like your idea for just putting the verses together like that and then analyzing them. I think I will do this with some of my other songs. It might really help me when I write and/or rewrite them. I think that's a really effective, simple technique. It clearly shows how that third verse doesn't cut it. Makes me want to slap myself and say, "why didn't I think of that?" I guess because I'm not you.:)
The idea of the disguise line had to do with the snake putting on a new skin. I guess I was implying that the new skin was a disguise. He looks like a changed man with the new skin on. It's a bit more difficult to see that he's still the same, until he reveals his fangs.
It's funny as I've been typing all these posts to everyone, I've finally figured out what this song is really about. As I've stated, it's not really about him. The song is supposed to be about her internal battle with herself.
Anyway, thanks again for posting and I think I'm going to incorporate that visual of just having the verses lined-up together when I start to rework this. I suppose I could do the same thing with the choruses too.
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#678886 - 01/03/09 01:00 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Teddie Cochran Music]
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Wendy D
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 1909
Loc: Atlanta, GA USA
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Teddie,
Thanks for coming by to post on this. The snake is supposed to be a former lover who keeps coming back into this poor woman's life. She is singing about her own weakness in taking him back again and again. It does need more musical variation. Once I get a solid bridge and do a better job with the verses and the story, I'll probably get a professional like Mike Caro to work this one over for me. As Harriet stated, this is not a mainstream type song, but there might be some potential for TV or film. I've never really considered trying to pitch anything I write. I'm more of a hobbyist. But I appreciate your time and effort.
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#679452 - 01/05/09 07:39 PM
Re: Week 45 MP3/Lyric Pick: "999,000 Times"
[Re: Melle]
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Wendy D
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 1909
Loc: Atlanta, GA USA
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Melle,
Thanks for dropping by to post on this one. I never thought of this as a vampire ballad. That's kind of cool, really. It does need a bridge, more instrumentation, and a bit faster tempo. Thanks for your kind comments!
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