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#658583 - 10/09/08 08:44 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Mike Dunbar
JPF Mentor
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 8202
Loc: Nashville Tennessee
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A lot of people are so mad at Bush and the way the Republicans screwed up things that they think the Democrats are somehow better. Here's a little tidbit about Barney Frank, Chairman of the House Financial Services Committee:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,432501,00.html
And yes, you can find stuff just as bad about the Republicans.
It's not the system that's broken, it's the people that have been elected to run it who have become corrupted by their power. We need to throw the bums out, not make more laws, just get in folks who will follow the Constitution and act with the people's interest, rather than the party's interest.
_________________________
Anybody who’s made it will tell you, you can make it. Anyone who hasn’t made it will tell you, you can’t -John Mayer Success is simply a matter of luck. Ask any failure. -Earl Wilson It's only music. -niteshift Mike Dunbar Music
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#658595 - 10/09/08 09:15 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Andrew Aversa
Serious Contributor
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Philadelphia, PA, USA
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Again Brian you missed my point. The major issues that this country is dealing with now developed BEFORE 2006. It's just confusing to me how you can look at our current situation and say "It all happened within the last two years; it didn't get better, therefore it's the fault of the Democrats." It's logically fallacious - correlation is NOT causation. The housing bubble had already started to burst by 2006 which was a central catalyst to the actual crisis. The debt, health care and social security issues have been accumulating for years and years. Unless you have gone through every piece of legislation proposed, passed, rejected or vetoed over the last two years it's hard to find your argument compelling.
As for the paranoia that we're somehow becoming socialist or communist, that's utterly ridiculous. If you're just going to assume the worst about Obama - eg. that he'll simply lie about his policies and plans - then there's really no point in continuing this discussion. Nothing in his policies or proposed plans is going to turn is into a socialist nation. Unless you really are into the whole Machiavellian/Atlas Shrugged kind of philosophy and have a different system of ethics than most, I don't see how you could possibly infer that from what has been proposed.
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#658608 - 10/09/08 09:53 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Andrew Aversa]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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The Democrats are behind Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and those are the entities that started all this. 2 years ago McCain wanted to regulate them because they saw this coming and Barney Frank and his cronies blocked it. That alone could have halted ALL of this disaster. How you can't see it is beyond me unless it's just blind partisanship. I know you're a smart guy and you definitely make the case for your chosen party better than anyone else I've read here. But on this one you're just wrong.
US Reps only get a 2 year term. If your premise is correct, all the people elected in the last term were for naught. In fact, based on your view, there's no point in having US Representatives because they can't have any impact nor do they bear responsibility during their 2 year term for what happens. Do you realize this is what you are saying?
And to Mike: I agree with you. We desperately need to wipe the slate clean of all these people and get CITIZEN politicians back in power. People who have lived and still live REAL lives in the communities they come from. Politicians were never intended to be life long scam artists. They were supposed to serve and then go back to real life making way for the next one. I think this latest disaster where Bush has a 9% approval rating in a second term and the congress has a 7% approval rating for the last 2 years should wake people up to the need for term limits and perhaps 1 6 year term for the president. That way once they run and get elected, they won't spend half their first term running for re-election. Wait and see.. Obama will be campaigning 2 years after getting into office if he's elected. He didn't even wait that long as a Senator.
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney 
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#658610 - 10/09/08 10:15 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Andrew Aversa
Serious Contributor
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Philadelphia, PA, USA
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It's true that Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac were created by Democrats... over half a century ago. No one had any problem with them for the vast majority of that time, nor did either GSE cause any problems. Phil Chapman and I were going back and forth about this in another thread, so let's not get into details, but the existence of these two organizations in and of themselves is not somehow an evil. The issue is that NOBODY created proper oversight. This includes the Republican party in all the years those GSEs were around. Just like any other aspect of bureaucracy, when you have a system that has been in place for a long time, there's typically very little motivation to try and change it. When you talk about things that were done over 50 years ago it's practically irrelevant WHO did it - if they're still around, then clearly the majority approved of them (on both sides.) And both sides are, in fact, to blame on that level.
US Reps only get a 2 year term. If your premise is correct, all the people elected in the last term were for naught. In fact, based on your view, there's no point in having US Representatives because they can't have any impact nor do they bear responsibility during their 2 year term for what happens. Do you realize this is what you are saying?
This is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that it's unreasonable to say a Democratic majority for the last two years is responsible for the state of the country as it stands now. Let's look specifically at the subprime crisis. As of today, this is a global economic crisis that has truly affected all the major economies in a very bad way. It's not hyperbole to say it's the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. When there's an event of that MAGNITUDE where the wheels were already in motion by the time 2006 rolled around, NO majority party could have possibly turned it around. I don't believe it would have been possible. Too little, too late.
Without a thorough analysis of exactly what the Democrats did and didn't do over the last two years I simply think it's not logical to say "things would be the same or better under the Republicans." I'm certainly not saying it would be the same or worse under them - I've never made any claim like that. I don't have enough data to make a claim either way, simply that there's no way to know for sure, BUT due to the magnitude and age of the crises we're involved in, it's unrealistic to think that anybody over the last two years could have significantly changed the outcome one way or the other. Momentum.
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#658613 - 10/09/08 10:26 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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We desperately need to wipe the slate clean of all these people and get CITIZEN politicians back in power. People who have lived and still live REAL lives in the communities they come from. Politicians were never intended to be life long scam artists. They were supposed to serve and then go back to real life making way for the next one. Brian
This has worked well in Oregon, the state where I was born and spent most of my life. We have had a lot of good governors who had real lives before they took office and real lives when they left. The one that I think should be running for president is John Kitzhaber who was elected governor of Oregon after having a career as a physician. I met him in a 10K roadrace in Roseburg, Oregon the year he was elected. He's just a smart guy who noticed that most of Oregon's health care funding was going to people in the last weeks of their lives and that children's immunization, prenatal care, and a lot of basic health programs were being short changed. His ideas to reallocate funding got a lot of resistance from the AARP and a lot of "end of life" doctors and healthcare workers. But he told the truth, was a true public servant, could have been elected again after the 4 year separation of his two terms but chose not to run. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kitzhaber
I think Oregon is way ahead of most states when it comes to being "green", progressive, and fair. Eugene, where Nike Corp was born, has a lot of great businesses that are all American and pay well. It has the largest Public Utility co-op in the nation. Power is 6 cents per kilowatt hour. It's a Co-op not big government- that is what we need more of. The linemen are paid more than $40.00 an hour. Symantec, the software company, is headquartered there. My wife's best friend 10 years ago was making 8 bucks an hour at a discount store, moved to Symantec and today makes more than $100,000 a year. She has no college education- she was trained by Symantec. It actually pays to play and pay fair. I have a lot of friend who work at Costco in Oregon and they are all paid extremely well. Guess what company is actually doing better in this economic climate? Costco. Sam's Club tried to copy the business model but they pay crap so the result is that Sam's club has twice the number of stores and half the business.
That is the sad thing about the greed that drives very large banks and businesses. We could be riding on a tide that lifts all boats by rewarding the productive work force. But short sightedness, selfishness and lack of vision has left us in the shallows. Big business treat people like a commodity! It has no soul. But we have good role models. We have Costco. We have Symantec. We have South West Airlines and a lot more. All of them are doing well and at the same time treat their employees well. Duh! What else do these sleazy Wall street and big bank bastards need to know?
I'm not at all pessimistic. We need to purge the economy of the "skimmers", the unproductive banks and financial machinery that fouls up real production. Banks were hiring mathematicians and physicist to devise financial "instruments" to make transactions opaque! They should be figuring out the calculus of the tidal waves to harvest energy! I head today that more than 20% of our economy is based on the financial sector. That's crazy. It's like a big Casino and the bankers are the House!
We are probably going through a purge and a lot of people will lose their job but a lot of those jobs were worthless and pointless anyway. If your job was to sell sub prime mortgages to the poor and gullible, are we going to mourn that loss? What we are going through is healthy. It doesn't feel like it but it is.
" There is a tide in the affairs of men. Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune; Omitted, all the voyage of their life Is bound in shallows and in miseries ".. W. Shakespeare
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#658690 - 10/10/08 08:00 AM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Mike Dunbar]
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Scott Campbell
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 10861
Loc: Lakeland, FL, USA
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It's not the system that's broken, it's the people that have been elected to run it who have become corrupted by their power. We need to throw the bums out, not make more laws, just get in folks who will follow the Constitution and act with the people's interest, rather than the party's interest.
Agreed.....
Here is a problem though - when someone else's senator or congressman gets pork, they are corrupt. When our senator or congressman does it, he's good at his job. 
Scott
Edited by Scott Campbell (10/10/08 08:07 AM)
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#658691 - 10/10/08 08:06 AM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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Scott Campbell
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 10861
Loc: Lakeland, FL, USA
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We are probably going through a purge and a lot of people will lose their job but a lot of those jobs were worthless and pointless anyway. If your job was to sell sub prime mortgages to the poor and gullible, are we going to mourn that loss? What we are going through is healthy. It doesn't feel like it but it is.
I agree that this is necessary and healthy in the long run. But the people who are going to be hurt will go well beyond those who held worthless jobs. That guy with the worthless job was using the money he made to buy groceries, clothes, and make a house payment. If he can't do that anymore, a lot of people get hit....
Scott
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#658739 - 10/10/08 11:42 AM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Scott Campbell]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Scott,
That's why we need to cut off ALL pork. It's like saying we want to drive 100 MPH on the highway, and everyone else should drive 65. We need to start enforcing the same speed limit for everyone consistently. If we want to raise it for all to 70.. that's fine. But it should be the same across the board and then enforced. If we need legislation for something, we should pass a bill that applies to everyone. There shouldn't be any allowance for unrelated issues to be tagged on to the bills. Line Item veto would go a long way towards fixing that. Also, if we had a balanced budget amendment, then all spending would have to pass the muster of everyone. And this pork stuff would get shot down before it made it onto a bill because it would decrease everyone elses ability to get things done. And if we had term limits, the good old boy/girl system would die a quick death. Sure, the lobbyists would still be there but I think we should start creating tighter laws there as well. Why should any lobbyist be allowed to spend any money on any candidate? (in other words, why should they be able to take people on vacations or golf outings etc?). I also think we should require law makers to work full time year round. They should have to have office hours either in DC or their local offices all year, like all other workers. They are paid enough to work full time. Local lawmakers often aren't, so their schedules should also be mandated but with time left to run their own businesses etc. People should view serving in government like serving a stint in the military. You put most of everything else aside for a period of time and do the work and then go back to your regular life when it is over. Want a long political career? Then server limited stints in your local then state and then national government. Then move on with life.
I also think we should open up the debates to the top 5 political parties and expand them to more formats and topics. In the last 4 weeks we should then shrink it down to the top 3. I also think that we should require photo ID's to vote in all local, state and federal elections. In Indiana, there was a surpreme court case over this issue and they ruled in favor of letting them require a photo ID. It was just in time too because ACORN was the plaitiff suing Indiana over the issue and guess what? In Indianapolis, ACORN has helped register so many fraudulent registrations that 105% of the people are registered (yes, that's 5% more than actually exist). Fraud is rampant due to the efforts of ACORN and they are a political organization with the goal of electing 1 single party only. That's very dangerous to our national security and we can't allow that rampant and out in the open voter registration fraud. If they'd won their Supreme Court case, all those fake voters could have voted without ID and without any chance of verification. Anyone who supports that is, in my opinion, un-American. Anyone supporting that rampant voter fraud should be held under charges of treason.
With the rampant problems we have (and they are getting worse as I type this) I think it's time for some new rules in our government, giving it back to the people.
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#658744 - 10/10/08 12:02 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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I think we have to do something to make voter fraud impossible. I will be in California November 1st so I went on-line and googled "Texas absentee ballots". I quickly found a state site that let me apply for an absentee ballot. It asked my name and address and then asked how many ballots I wanted. I checked two (one for my wife even though she will still be in Texas November 1st.) I clicked the "Next" button waiting to fill out my SSN or something but no, the screen just said, "the ballots will me mailed". It seemed a little too easy. What if I had requested 10 ballots? Could I have created some phantom voters?
_________________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
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#658771 - 10/10/08 01:12 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Scott Campbell
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 10861
Loc: Lakeland, FL, USA
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Scott,
That's why we need to cut off ALL pork. It's like saying we want to drive 100 MPH on the highway, and everyone else should drive 65. We need to start enforcing the same speed limit for everyone consistently. If we want to raise it for all to 70.. that's fine. But it should be the same across the board and then enforced. If we need legislation for something, we should pass a bill that applies to everyone. There shouldn't be any allowance for unrelated issues to be tagged on to the bills. Line Item veto would go a long way towards fixing that. Also, if we had a balanced budget amendment, then all spending would have to pass the muster of everyone. And this pork stuff would get shot down before it made it onto a bill because it would decrease everyone elses ability to get things done. And if we had term limits, the good old boy/girl system would die a quick death. Sure, the lobbyists would still be there but I think we should start creating tighter laws there as well. Why should any lobbyist be allowed to spend any money on any candidate? (in other words, why should they be able to take people on vacations or golf outings etc?). I also think we should require law makers to work full time year round. They should have to have office hours either in DC or their local offices all year, like all other workers. They are paid enough to work full time. Local lawmakers often aren't, so their schedules should also be mandated but with time left to run their own businesses etc. People should view serving in government like serving a stint in the military. You put most of everything else aside for a period of time and do the work and then go back to your regular life when it is over. Want a long political career? Then server limited stints in your local then state and then national government. Then move on with life.
I also think we should open up the debates to the top 5 political parties and expand them to more formats and topics. In the last 4 weeks we should then shrink it down to the top 3. I also think that we should require photo ID's to vote in all local, state and federal elections. In Indiana, there was a surpreme court case over this issue and they ruled in favor of letting them require a photo ID. It was just in time too because ACORN was the plaitiff suing Indiana over the issue and guess what? In Indianapolis, ACORN has helped register so many fraudulent registrations that 105% of the people are registered (yes, that's 5% more than actually exist). Fraud is rampant due to the efforts of ACORN and they are a political organization with the goal of electing 1 single party only. That's very dangerous to our national security and we can't allow that rampant and out in the open voter registration fraud. If they'd won their Supreme Court case, all those fake voters could have voted without ID and without any chance of verification. Anyone who supports that is, in my opinion, un-American. Anyone supporting that rampant voter fraud should be held under charges of treason.
With the rampant problems we have (and they are getting worse as I type this) I think it's time for some new rules in our government, giving it back to the people.
Brian
I have to pretty much agree with you down the line, Brian. Certainly I support a line-item veto and a balanced budget requirement.
I've gone back and forth on term limits but I seem to finally be converging on the idea that they are good. The argument that used to sway me was, "but what if you get someone really good"? I've come to the conclusion though that the opposite is true almost all of the time.....
As for the debates, I know you were serious and I don't think it's a bad idea. But what initially flashed through my mind was that it could be like Survivor. The low performer gets voted out each week! Actually, the idea is growing on me as I type. Instead of voting for someone, we would be voting against people until there was only one left.
To make it last all season we could have preliminaries. Five libertarians go at it until they're down to one. Then five Republicans and so on. Then the winners from each party start the final elimination round. Really makes me wonder if things would have turned out differently or not...
Scott
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#658818 - 10/10/08 03:09 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Scott Campbell]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Actually if we'd done what you suggest with the voting (which in some ways isn't a bad idea) we'd have Hilary Clinton and Mitt Romney running right now and Hilary would be winning in a landslide. Perhaps Obama will also win in a landslide, but I'd much rather have had Hilary (or Romney for that matter). McCain and Obama have proven they aren't up to the task. Neither has shown any leadership that pleases anyone but their party faithful. And we know how much the parties have screwed things up so I hardly give much credence to party hardliners anyway.
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#658822 - 10/10/08 03:14 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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A little perspective:
"Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and the creation of an egalitarian society.[1][2] Modern socialism originated in the late nineteenth-century working class political movement. Karl Marx posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle, it being the transitional stage between capitalism and communism.[3][4]
Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth into a small section of society who control capital, and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.[1]
Socialism is not a discrete philosophy of fixed doctrine and program; its branches advocate a degree of social interventionism and economic rationalization, sometimes opposing each other. Another dividing feature of the socialist movement is the split on how a socialist economy should be established between the reformists and the revolutionaries. Some socialists advocate complete nationalization of the means of production, distribution, and exchange; while others advocate state control of capital within the framework of a market economy. Social democrats propose selective nationalization of key national industries in mixed economies combined with tax-funded welfare programs."
Now we aren't heading towards pure or defined Communism which in addition to getting rid of classes also wants to do away government itself. Clearly we're not doing that.
So I raise this definition to ask: We're now talking about taking over the banks AND possibly the car manufacturers. That's directly in opposition to Capitalism and squarely a socialist movement. Can the US claim any longer to be a free, capitalist society? I think sadly it's a real question without an clear cut answer any longer.
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#658824 - 10/10/08 03:27 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Jody Whitesides]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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"Oh no he didn't!!!"
So now Obama has adjusted his stance (read: LIE) on his relationship and knowledge of Bill Ayers and his terrorists past. Instead of saying he didn't know anything about what he'd done and that he was just some "guy from the neighborhood" he has now adjusted that to this: He "knew he was a terrorists but he thought he'd been rehabilitated." This suggests that Obama is happy to work closely (and directly FOR) a US Domestic Terrorists, as long as he thinks he was rehabilitated. Rehabilitated from what? Bombing public buildings and private homes with children inside? Being part of a movement that did this many times with deaths involved? That's very similar to another domestic terrorists Tim McVeigh. The only difference is that Bill Ayers and his murderer wife GOT OFF on technicalities. If Tim McVeigh had gotten on an a technicality, and he thought he was rehabilitated, would Obama also have been okay with working with and for him? Would he have launced his political career from Tim McVeigh's living room? Would that have been okay? What if Tim had publicly stated he'd wished he'd bombed more buildings and wasn't sorry at all? Would that have still qualified him as rehabilitated in Obama's mind? It sure did in the case of Bill Ayers.
This lapse in common sense and decency alone would be cause for not supporting Obama for Senator, let alone the Presidency. Domestic terrorists as friends and associates? Really? And now he admits he knew all about it, but it was okay because he'd made a judgement that Ayers had been rehabbed? Even though Ayers himself said he still wishes he'd done more?
But it gets worse... Ayers is now in charge of educating LOTS of kids. He won an award from Chavez in VZ for teaching kids how to overthrow capitalism. He got a huge financial grant saying his intent was to teach kids, not through reading and writing, but by radicalizing them against capitalism and government. And guess what? Obama worked for him to spend that money to achieve those stated goals.
Now.. perhaps that isn't enough to convince radical Obama supporters, but it seems to me that common decency would prevail and someone would be smart enough and decent enough to refuse to knowingly work with someone with that background. Certainly you'd think he'd avoid working FOR a guy like that giving out money to "radicalize" (that's Ayer's word, not mine) children instead of teaching them reading and writing.
Doesn't this stuff make you guys sick?
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#658831 - 10/10/08 03:49 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Andrew Aversa
Serious Contributor
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Philadelphia, PA, USA
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So Brian, it's OK to have another Great Depression as long as we maintain our oh-so-holy Capitalist values, right? Hundreds of thousands committing suicide or starving to death and a quarter of the country unemployed is OK, with less than 5% of the remainder controlling nearly all of the wealth, because THE FREE MARKET SOLVES EVERYTHING! Right? People are beginning to speculate that the current financial crisis is so bad that our entire monetary system will collapse - in other words, the dollar will no longer have any value. Money markets have already started to have negative returns which is nearly unprecedented. The last time that happened was, you guessed it, in the Great Depression. The country of Iceland is bankrupt and needed a loan from Russia to not collapse.
This is NOT the time to be saying "Let's do nothing and let the free market sort it out." There isn't going to BE a market unless we have some serious government intervention.
And here you have John McCain saying we need to give the richest of the rich over $300 billion dollars back. I don't give a damn about Obama and Ayers compared to that. It makes me want to vomit. Obama is NOT going to start somehow mandating that our kids somehow become terrorists or radicals. That's absurd. He has shown nothing in any of his policies and plans that would indicate he is going to do that. Absolutely NOTHING.
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#658837 - 10/10/08 04:06 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Andrew Aversa]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Andrew,
His job was to dole out Ayer's 50 million dollar grant which had the specific goal to "radicalize children." That's not my word. It's in his actual grant application. And Obama took the job to dole it out. How is that not cause for concern? Seriously? Do you think we need to take the lead from admitted and boastful domestic terrorists?
And since when did you think I was happy with or supporting McCain? I'm neither. I am seriously concerned that we have NO candidate worthy of our vote running for any of the 4 named parties. And Nader is no longer as viable candidate as he once was. It's clear that people who aren't staunch Democratic voters have no say in this any longer. Since you ARE one of those, it means people like yourself have to step up and demand accountability from Obama. He's not going to listen to a moderate let alone a conservative. And if his supporters don't ask him to clean up his act, then hope is lost. It's the same problem with McCain. His party has not held him accountable for supporting the pork in the bailout bill. Where was his straight talk express? It was silent. Neither is acceptable. Why is it that you think Obama will make the right choice when he's been making all the wrong ones so far? He's currently just quietly coasting doing nothing and no leading anything because he has a lead. This is when we NEED some leadership. He's not showing he can offer any. Why are you so sure he'll be able to on the job? And will that leadership be influenced by the same low life interests of the likes of Bill Ayers?
Brian
PS: Lest you think I don't respect your opinion, I made you one of the moderators of the Political discussion board. I am happy to respectfully disagree with anyone. That type of discussion is how everyone, including you and me, learn.
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#658861 - 10/10/08 05:39 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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I was in Vietnam and I have a purple heart to show for it but I will not vote for John McCain. I think his experience there harmed him psychologically and I don't think he has the temperament to be commander-in-chief. But in the interest of fairness and because I work with the television journalism students here at TCU who are trained to be fair in their reporting, I will post 2 YouTube videos about John McCain, both by Vietnam POW vets. One vet thinks McCain is a great man and one thinks he is not fit to be president.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfyGdG9llSE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KjsEs46C70
The first video was a Fox News Network story. The second was obviously edited and distributed by some kind of propaganda machine. Still, the interview and the sentiments of the POW vet appears not to have been manipulated except for the way it was edited and you do have to be wary of those kinds of things- in other words, did they splice segments together to be concise or did they spice them together to created false persuasion.
I am not at all afraid that everything will go to hell if Obama is president but I have learned a little more about his plan for a tax increase on the so called "wealthy" and I cannot find credible economist who think that is a good idea. $250,000 is not a lot of money and it is not the damaged done to small business that will cause the greatest job loss but the damage done to big business if we raise taxes. GM stock is in the tank and right here in Dallas/Fort Worth we have a huge GM plant. A tax hike on GM will cause layoffs and higher prices for the new "Volt" that will be rolling off the lines next in 2011. I think I am finished with the blame game. We will have to live with the fact that the next president is likely to be Obama and if we believe his better angels, he will work across the isle and provide a steady hand and optimistic vision. We'll just have to hope that will be true.
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#658874 - 10/10/08 06:34 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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Bill Robinson
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 02/28/04
Posts: 6190
Loc: Curmudgeonville, Tn
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Doesn't this stuff make you guys sick?
Apparently not
The latest poll on FOX shows only 6% of those polled say they care about ethics.
When polled on whether they thought the candidates were honest and truthful?
MCCain 60% said he is
Obama 60% say he is ( this has risen 4% )
But they go on to say it won't affect their vote.
Take a look at the various Mayors, Governors, Senators, and Congressmen who have been convicted of various felonies or caught in scandals and are then re elected.
Democrats seem to care less than Republicans. I think Democrats are buy nature more forgiving. More Liberal. More lenient. Willing to overlook more indiscretions.
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#658885 - 10/10/08 07:18 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Bill Robinson]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Joe,
Neither McCain nor Obama's "better angels" have a chance in hell. What we'll see from either is the worst case scenario because that is what their handlers will allow. Perhaps both of them have bad downsides so it won't matter. The question is why do we accept this? We're like victims of abuse who stick around for more because we've collectively lost our sense of worth and somehow feel we don't deserve better. And we're afraid to risk a change because it might be worse, or we might not successfully get away and we'll be punished by those we tried to escape.
At the start of this process, I thought perhaps we had a chance to win either way. Now, after seeing and hearing from these two for the last 2 years, all I am left with is the thought that we'll lose either way.
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#658891 - 10/10/08 07:29 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Jody Whitesides]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Did anyone see the protests in the UK over their version of the Bailout plan?
By the way, it appears to me that McCain has given up. He's not going after Obama even when his own campaign is running attack ads. He doesn't appear to me to be someone who still has fight left. I noticed while watching one of his town hall meetings that he seemed a mere shell of himself from even a few weeks ago. Either he's exhausted or slipping into shut down mode. I don't expect him to go after Obama in the last debate and if that's the case, then it's over and we can start making plans to get the rest of any profit we have out of the market before Obama's capital gains taxes kick in. Once he raises those taxes, there will never be a reason to get back into the market.
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#658894 - 10/10/08 07:31 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Caljamscott
Serious Contributor
Registered: 03/29/07
Posts: 97
Loc: USA
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Wereo for president.
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#658931 - 10/10/08 09:43 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Andrew Aversa
Serious Contributor
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Philadelphia, PA, USA
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Thank you Brian - I know you, so I've never felt disrespected at any time.  As I posted to Phil Chapman in another thread, I try to never bring personal attacks into a discussion like this... people inevitably disagree, but it's all in good humor, especially in a community like this.
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#658985 - 10/11/08 12:30 AM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Andrew Aversa]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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Tonight on PBS Bill Moyers had George Soros as a guest. He published a book in May called "The New Paradigm for Financial Markets: The Credit Crisis of 2008 and What it Means". That was probably the most insightful interview on the present financial crisis I have seen. If you can find it, watch it because it will put every thing in a historical perspective. Soros calls the housing crisis the "detonator" for the super bubble which has been growing for 25 years. Maybe it will get posted on Youtube or maybe it can be seen again on PBS but it is a must see. Here is a short clip from an interview done in 2006. You will get a since of his understanding of the financial world and his character.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFD_3mZBxD8&feature=related
For the first time, I think I am beginning to see what happened to cause the crisis, which Soros does not mince words about. In short, it has been brewing for 25 years, the time frame where the USA build it's economy on "consumption". Soros thinks our new paradigm will have to be to build the economy on combating global warming. In the past 25 years we have been spending 6% more than we make. He said, "That pattern is over today". It is not that the economy needs a makeover. The economy WILL be made over!
Bill got into a bit of a philosophical discussion about ethics and "social responsibility" and that is when Soros said rather pointedly that the lack of any real connection between the lender and borrower, and the idea that we have been living a "false ideology" involving a narrow selfish form of capitalism that is just as perverted as Communism or any other false ideology. I think we have all heard the mantra of that ideology- that the markets will correct themselves; that pursuing our self interest will somehow translate to the interest of the greater good-etc. that way of thinking has now been proven false.
He says this crisis is just as serious as the 29 crash but we can manage it if we do it right. He said so far, we are not and we are behind the curve and it gets harder every day to correct. He says the man in charge of the bailout is the wrong man. He is one of the ones who are responsible for the financial execess'. Soros thinks we will flounder for another 3 months (until after the election)
Brian, I think you were right to start a political forum because these are extraordinary times and we need to vent, share, get enlightened, get mad and talk it out.
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#658993 - 10/11/08 01:22 AM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Joe,
Well it only took a few hours after creating them that someone called all Republicans racist and that I was also called a racist. So it's success remains to be seen.
As to your topic, it's hard for me to consider anything Soros says with a grain of salt. It's not just that he's uber partisan (since he's probably the single most powerful force in the Democratic party and extremely leftist) but ironically that he's also one of the most ruthless capitalists in history. I am guessing you don't know who Soros is or you wouldn't have taken his critisisms seriously in light of his own financial benefit.
I guess it would be as valid as posting a Rush Limbaugh diatribe on how it all happened and who is at fault, but like Soros, we can guess who would get the blame in that case too right?
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#659149 - 10/11/08 05:21 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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Soros has been giving his money away for the past 25 years and he is a holocaust survivor so I think his perspective is probably tempered with generosity and bitter experience.
I have never understood Left and Right Wing much less extreme Left or Right. I will listen to Rush Limbaugh until he stops making sense and I will listen to Jesse Jackson until he stops making sense. I never sort people according to measures like Left and Right. I remember a time when I had just got out of Viet Nam and was stationed in El Paso (Fort Bliss. I bought a used VW Bug from a wealthy woman whose husband was a contractor. She started talking politics and I remember asking he to define Left and Right. She started gesturing with her hands, explaining these people believe "such and such" and these people over here believe "this and that". The problem was, when she talked about the Left she used her right hand and when she talked about the Right, she used her left hand. I bought the car, waved good bye and decided right then and there, she didn't know what she was talking about and that it was a pointless way to categorize what people think.
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#659242 - 10/12/08 02:19 AM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Extreme left and right are people who will always come to a conclusion that is solely formed by their corresponding political dogma and what is politically expedient to that side. They will automatically discount any alternative answer to any question in favor of a politically charged and expedient one. It's still possible to learn from these people and at some of the time they are right (minus the hate speech). But it's impossible in some cases to tell when they are correct or simply being party faithful hacks spouting propaganda. Soros has used his money to bully an entire party to his view and put them in fear of his wrath (see the Democratic Primaries), so in his case, he's brought the extremist view in line with his own. Go to the sites he funds and supports (such as moveon.org) and read the regular hate speech there. It's endless. Is there hate speech on the right wing extremist sites too? Yes. That's the point. Neither offers unbiased views on anything.
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#659296 - 10/12/08 10:50 AM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Bill Robinson
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 02/28/04
Posts: 6190
Loc: Curmudgeonville, Tn
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I have learned over this last few months that I am either a very ignorant person or a very conflicted person.
I have spent hours and hours scouring the internet trying to learn all I can about both these Candidates.
I had made an earlier post about finding the truth and have decided it may not be possible.
Not because it isn't out there but because I may be incapable of seeing it.
I have been desperately trying to find something to overcome my mistrust of Obama. All I find are more questions. And more "lack" of information. He is NOT an open book by anyone's definition. Lots of undisclosed stuff there.
I thought I had a handle on McCain but these recent events have me questioning what I thought I knew. He is an open book but I keep seeing conflicts in his behavior.
So in a few weeks I am going to have to make a decision. I don't want to throw my vote away by voting for a third party candidate that has no chance of winning. I also don't want to vote for someone who I think will hurt our Country.
The lesser of two evils idea does not appeal to me.
I have been saying for years I want a President who is not beholding to anyone.
Unfortunately I don't see that in this election. I thought Obama's lack of political career might be it but my investigations have raised many issues that I cannot explain.
McCain, the Maverick? Palin, the Maverick?
Maybe, but I am not sure now. McCain supporting the Bailout bill threw me.
Oh well. Three weeks to go.
No matter which way this election goes I think we might be heading for some really bad times.
But maybe not.
I checked my supply of Bullets. I have lots.
Edited by Bill Robinson (10/12/08 10:53 AM)
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#659367 - 10/12/08 03:49 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Bill Robinson]
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Jack Swain
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 1545
Loc: Berwyn, IL, US
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Bill, one of the beauties of the American form of government is that we only give a president eight years, ten at the the outside, if a VP takes over for a president, and then gets re-elected twice, to screw things up. We tend to allow one party to have a dominant influence until they push the public too hard, then we flop and allow the other party some control until they too piss us off. It is actually a brilliant system.
My view on the presidency is that intelligence is not a critical factor for the role, since they are highly dependent upon and influenced by others to actually recommend courses of action.
However, the mess we are in has everything to do with a congress that is manipulated by money and other incentives from all the PACs and personal alliances they have to make to get where they are in national politics, and almost zero to do with any single president. Consequently, the president has little real control over economic matters, except in his appointments to positions that have no oversight, and in many cases, no limits. In fact, the greatest real power that the president has is to make appointments.
The hardest thing to do is to evaluate a presidential candidate based on anything he says, regardless of how eloquent or incoherent his words, because they will probably have little to do with what happens once he or she is elected. When is the last time a presidential candidate, upon election, did what was promised in his campaign speeches? The ONLY safe way to evaluate a candidate, in my view is to look at those who seem to be the handlers. Their character will tell you more about what that president will do than anything you will glean from his words.
Really intelligent presidential candidates never get a real chance at election, because they are too smart for their own good. By actually thinking through an issue to form a real plan of action around it, means that you have to come to grips with the stumbling blocks to its success, and that means going head-to-head against the dominant controllers of both parties.
Therefore, really intelligent candidates tend to be relegated to third parties with no real chance at getting elected. If you doubt this, take a look ate the history of this country as it relates to third parties. You will find it replete with people who actually had real, consise plans for the issues of the day that never had a real chance at ever getting implemented.
I don't want to sound too negative here, because the truth is I still believe that our system is still the best, albeit very flawed form of government in existence.
Edited by Jack Swain (10/12/08 05:05 PM)
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#659675 - 10/14/08 12:16 AM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Jack Swain]
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Doug/Liszt Laughing
Serious Contributor
Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 981
Loc: Indiana
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Brian,
Capitalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism - see web site for the underlying footnoted references):
"Capitalism is the economic system in which the means of production are owned by private persons, and operated for profit[1] and where investments, distribution, income, production and pricing of goods and services are predominantly determined through the operation of a free market[2], rather than by central economic planning. Capitalism is usually considered to involve the right of individuals and corporations to trade, incorporate, employ workers, and use money provided by central banks, in goods, services (including finance), labor and land.[2] In theory, production and distribution in a capitalist system are governed by the free market rather than state regulation,[3] with state action confined to defining and enforcing the basic rules of the market[4] though the state may provide a few basic public goods and infrastructure.[5] Unrestrained capitalism is confined to theory, as "all of the capitalistic societies of the West have mixed economies" with interventionist state regulation, social programs[6] and state ownership of some sectors."
Let's focus on the last sentence. It says that all modern Western societies are mixed, employing some form of capitalism *and* socialism. Just as socialism "...is not a discrete philosophy of fixed doctrine and program..." neither is capitalism.
"Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth into a small section of society who control capital, and creates an unequal society".
The underpinnings of modern capitalism believes the same thing. Otherwise, why enforce any regulation, or discourage monopoly, etc.?
"Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods....".
Loaning money to car companies or buying shares of banks (especially the latter) could be seen as "state or collective ownership". However, neither is "administering...the means of production". The loans are of course just that, loans. The government is not asking for seats on the boards or input on how to run the companies. Neither is it with the bank issues. In fact, now that it has moved from buying debt to injecting capital via buying preferred shares, it could be looked at as the government simply making investments with its money (yes, I understand it is borrowed money). Besides, the FDIC is "socialist". It insures that banks remain in business by insuring deposits (and this hopefully avoiding bank runs).
Does this violate pure capitalism, sure. Does it violate modern capitalism, no. These moves are simply part of the tool kit a modern capitalist government may use. This is not a fundamental shift away from private ownership and stewardship. It's an emergency procedure to keep the economy running. We and other modern capitalist societies have done things like this in the past, no worse for wear (ya, famous last words I know).
The problem with calling the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act a socialist move is that modern capitalism is socialist in many ways. And, modern capitalism "shifts to socialism and vise-a-versa" as needed and is practiced differently depending on the country. There is no bright line between socialism and capitalism. However, people don't acknowledge this connection. So, in our country particularly, the word socialism has a bad connotation. Anyone labeled "socialist" in our country is evil personified. And thus that label gets used politically to block things like universal health care.
Our current problems came about two ways: The housing market tanked due to inflated demand from too many loans, and Credit Default Swaps insuring the loans. A Credit Default Swap is basically insurance that lives outside of any regulation, such as maintaining reserves, etc. The SEC Chairman knew full well of this shadow economy, and the possible extreme problems, but allowed this so as not to interfere with a "free market". Sounds like we needed some "socialism" in this case...
Edited by Doug/Liszt Laughing (10/14/08 12:45 AM)
_________________________
Boo...my name is Doug
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#659685 - 10/14/08 02:19 AM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Doug/Liszt Laughing]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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I disagree with the FDIC explanation. It's an insurance policy and the banks in question simply pay the premiums to collectively cover it all. The reason the government puts it's name on it is to make investors and savers feel more secure. But it's insurance just the same that has been paid for. Of course no one has ever explained what happens if the government itself goes under. The premise is that our leaders would never let that happen, even though banks leaders might. Since the money system is backed by nothing in the first place, it's all hocus pocus to start right?
When the government takes actual ownership of the banks, that's a definite move towards socialism. I've also read that people feel if this was ever taken to court, they'd rule government bailing out private companies unconstitutional. I hope someone brings such a case. Why keep 1 badly run company in business to compete later with the ones that were well run all along? That's not capitalism in my book, modern or otherwise. It's the government choosing teams with a private company against all the others. Unfair to say the least.
The premise that socialism means taking the money and power away from the wealthy few and redistributing it to everyone else is also an indication we're moving away from capitalism.
As for the fed being at fault, though they no doubt deserve plenty of blame, I feel the ignitor of this collapse were Freddie and Fannie and that Barney Frank and his cohorts blocking of regulation of them (which was a political move in and of itself to protect their big financial supporters and friends running them) shows they are, in the end, most at fault. And ACORN, that little group that loves partisan election corruption, was also who pressured many banks to make these stupid loans in the first place claiming racism and bigotry if the banks didn't loan to poor minorities. They protested at branches etc. and the banks caved. That set a precedent that a lot of greedy sleazebags decided to cash in on.
I think your explanation is one of the most intelligent ones I have read, but I think it glosses over a lot of details that invalidate some of the premises. It's true we've not been a pure capitalist society, but this clearly moves us closer to being socialist than capitalist. I think we can at least agree on that 1 issue.
Socialism always sounds good on face value. But when it's tried, it fails. And when it slips further into communism, it can only be held together via military action and severe oppression. Ironic that a government idea that is supposed to help people usually terrorizes them in the end. As bad as the Nazi's were in WWII, the Russians murdered far more people during the same time frame. All in the name of communism. I doubt we're going to go there, but I don't doubt that unhealthy side effects that come with socialism will rear up their ugly heads as we inch more in that direction.
Brian
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#659779 - 10/14/08 12:44 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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I think many of us have been drawing the conclusion that the simple capitalistic idea (that for years seemed to be the correct ideology for national prosperity), has been perverted as corporations and banks became bigger and more powerful. As their power increased, their influence over our elected representatives became insurmountable. So now we have a dilemma whereas not only are most congressmen in the corporation's back pocket, but the stranglehold of the corporations and banks are so insidious and widespread that their failure would do catastrophic damage to the world economy. What is happening is less about "socialism" and has more to do with these big companies cashing in on a shadow insurance policy written up by the complacency, and worst tendencies of congress, the administration, the courts and even the lazy media.
_________________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
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#659782 - 10/14/08 01:00 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Well, let's be clear: People took out loans they could NOT afford. If people had lived in their means, this would never be an issue. But massive public greed (yes, I am saying public, versus just corporate) meant that everyone thought they deserved something they didn't have the money to buy. You can argue the causes of this (i.e. media, government, aggressive lenders) but if the people don't try to make the expensive purchases they can't afford in the first place, an aggressive lender can't get them into a loan of any kind.
I am not for bailouts for the banks or any other private corporation. I am also not for renegotiating with people who bought something they can't afford. They shouldn't keep that asset or we've simply rewarded them for doing it and nothing is learned and nothing is prevented from happening again. Now I do make an exception for actual banking fraud against a consumer, but I think that should be something more than simply having talked someone into buying what they can't afford. People do that everyday. Should we also bailout the person who bought a car they can't afford? How about a flat screen TV? How about someone who runs up a large restaurant tab? I mean when it comes down to it, what is the difference really?
Now I agree that this has been a merging of everyone's worst tendancies. But the only way to make the guilty pay more than the innocent is to not bail anyone out with other people's money. We've lost 90% of the value of our stock. We've lost 1/3 of our retirement plan. My mom has lost even more than that and she just retired. But I don't think the government should come back in and give us the money that was lost out of someone else's pocket. It's not their fault we invested where we did... why should THEY have to pay? Does it suck? Yes. But at least I can gauge where I made mistakes and learn from them. If I end up having to bail out OTHER people's bad decisions or fraud, then I can never learn from that nor protect myself or my family from others doing it again and again.
Right now they are wanting to bailout more companies and get involved in bank investments to loosen up credit. I don't think we should encourage people to take out MORE credit. Spend what you have. Don't spend what you don't have. And if you've gotten into debt already, don't take out MORE debt to pay off the old debt. It's a losing proposition and mindset that is also a big cause in all this and now we're simply perpetuating it. If a company has a sound financial base and needs short term cash, they can get it. If they are risky, they may not be able to get it. Is it the fault of everyone else in the country to bear that risk? If someone has strong credit and can clearly afford a loan for a house or car, they can get it. If they are risky and shouldn't really have that loan, they may not get it. What's wrong with that exactly? Let's err, as a nation, on NOT taking risk right now going forward. Risk is what greed is based on. It's like gambling in Las Vegas.. take big risks, get big payoff, but you also can lose big. Now we're supposed to pay off the big wins, but remove that risk factor for those that deserve a break the least. It's time to stop the blood flow.
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#659783 - 10/14/08 01:01 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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Paul Krugman, the Princeton economist who just won the Nobel Prize, talking about the economic bubble said this:
How bad will that aftermath be? The U.S. economy is currently suffering from twin imbalances. On one side, domestic spending is swollen by the housing bubble, which has led both to a huge surge in construction and to high consumer spending, as people extract equity from their homes. On the other side, we have a huge trade deficit, which we cover by selling bonds to foreigners. As I like to say, these days Americans make a living by selling each other houses, paid for with money borrowed from China.
As for the stock market, Donald Trump, who doesn't own stock said this morning on a business news show that on Friday he was ready to buy 100's of $$ millions in stock for the first time because the bargains were too tempting- but before he could act, the market climbed so he is still not in it. He is one of the cats benefiting from all this because he deals with cash. He picked up real property in NY on what he called pennies on the dollar.
_________________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
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#659784 - 10/14/08 01:07 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Joe, that makes my point.
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#659789 - 10/14/08 01:25 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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Joe, that makes my point.
Brian
I noticed that. I even posted it before I read you previous post.
Great minds think alike and now I can compare you to a Nobel prize winner.
I completely get your point that "victims" of sub prime loans have themselves to blame. And for the folks who were using their false 'equity' as a person ATM, I have not much sympathy. But there is a category of borrowers who were defrauded every step of the way.
I have a brother in LA who owns a three bedroom ranch style house with a small yard near LAX. Five years ago it was appraised at $850,000- before he remodeled it! My house is huge compared to his and is on one acre (near Fort Worth) and is appraised for $200,000. If Jerry's house was in Fort Worth, it wouldn't bring $150,000. Jerry has a high anxiety job as an airport re-fueling manager. He has no retirement to speak of. I suggested to him about 18 months ago that he sell his house, move to Oregon or New Mexico, buy a house for $200,000 and bank the rest. He didn't listen of course. Now it may be too late and LA is just one catastrophic earthquake away from a mass exodus. It may the the epitome of a place where people live beyond their means.
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#659818 - 10/14/08 03:07 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Joe,
That's just the cost of living out there. And people will pay 850K for a 150K house. Our house doesn't cost much more than yours, but a similar house in LA costs over 2.5 million dollars (we have a friend who appraised it for LA). Our house is nice, but not even average for our area (the houses a few blocks away cost 2-3 times more). He was looking at similar houses to ours and all of them cost 2-3 million or more. I told him to just move back to Indiana and he could live like a king for a fraction of that. He said he wants to stay in LA. So he bought a house in that price range. I think he's nuts. But people don't want to leave LA. I understand to a point. It's almost ALWAYS a nice day out there (minus the smog). It never seems to be as brutally hot and humid as Florida can get. But I have no idea how anyone with a REAL job (like your brother for example) can possibly afford to live out there. It's insane. Most of the time people are renting and the owners have multiple properties. And THOSE people are the ones getting bailed out I fear. In Chicago they stopped evicting people because they learned that while many home owners were in default, the renters they had were all paid up and had no idea what was going on. They were coming in and removing their stuff out to the curb while these honest renters were at work. It was such a problem they stopped evicting until the banks had confirmed that the person with the default loan was actually living in the house. THOSE are REAL victims in all of this.. not the landlords and not the people who voluntarily choose to spend 2 million on a 250K house.
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#659843 - 10/14/08 04:25 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Andrew Aversa
Serious Contributor
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Philadelphia, PA, USA
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It takes two people to make a bad credit decision. One is the person who uses the credit, but one is the person who was GIVEN the credit. Finance education is abysmal in the United States. Absolutely terrible. I don't know a single person my age who cares half as much about I do about portfolio diversification, saving money, ROI, CDs, etc. It's pathetic. But you cannot blame the individual for that because they are not being taught properly.
Let's look at it another way. Just a few years ago, the nation's savings rate was so bad it was actually NEGATIVE. In other words, on the whole, people were actually taking money out of their overall savings every year. Credit card debt has spiraled out of control as well. People just don't know how to handle them. Somebody in my own family at one point had so much credit card debt that they needed to be "bailed out" by somebody else in my family. This person in my family who had all that debt was not stupid or senseless. They just hadn't been taught the proper skills of money and credit management.
If everyone was being properly educated about finance and STILL messed up, I would be less sympathetic. But this is simply not the case.
Brian, do you believe in consumer protection laws? For example, requirements made by the government for food manufacturers to include nutritional information on their product. It's illegal to make a candy bar and sell it with text saying "mail us for the nutrition information" (unless it's a little fun-size bar, but that doesn't count - the manufacturer assumes that the person who bought the bag, which does have the information, is disseminating it properly.) In New York City, restaurants like McDonalds have to prominently display calorie and fat information for their products.
Should we repeal these laws? In a perfect world, everybody would be perfectly educated about nutrition and the menus of each company. But we don't live in a perfect world.
Finance is no different. If you actually try to look at all the terms and agreements associated with just opening a free checking account, you'd see that you practically have to be a lawyer to understand the terminology. People would prefer to just trust the media, popular culture, and word-of-mouth when making financial decisions. Obviously, this is a bad idea, but on the whole they lack the background necessary to actually understand what they're getting involved in. I recently heard about a credit card agreement that was in excess of 500 pages long. How can any normal person be expected to comprehend such an agreement and its potential impact on their decisions?
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#659853 - 10/14/08 04:59 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Andrew Aversa]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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Lack of regulation, oversight and enforcement IS a major problem in all of this. Take television advertisement for instance. Lets say you want to buy a device to sharpen razor blades. You see the ad, make the call for the $19.95 "save a blade" product. First problem is the ad says "Not including Shipping and handling". Apparently the law does not require the company to disclose that it will cost you another $15.95. The ad does not tell you that you will not talk to a human being when you call and that the prompts will try to sell you everything else in the company's inventory; and it you buy their other "offers" it would cost you several hundred dollars! The television station is not interested in keeping them honest because the company is the station's client. It may take two months to get the product or you may never get it. And if you do, the final insult is that the product doesn't work and never was designed to work. The whole package was meant to mislead and literally steal from you. But that's OK because by now you expect to get ripped off so when you sell your house, you forget to tell the new owner that your foundation is cracked or the septic system is failing or that the AC duct is leaking 20% of his electricity. Rip it Forward, stick it to 'um cause they did it to you and go ahead a cut off the SOB who hasn't got the Moxy to drive 20 mph over the speed limit.
White color crime, rip off you neighbor crime and dishonesty does more damage to lives that street crime but 95% of it goes unpunished. And still we criminalize 10's of thousands of people every year, and build bigger and badder prisons at billions of dollars of expense for crimes that are mental health issues and poverty issues. You want to know the truth? Reverend Wright, however much you would like to believe he is over the top and hateful, spoke a lot of "inconvenient" truth at the pulpit.
Who is regulating the excesses of predatory capitalism? The mess we are in is a prefect storm that we all watched for years gathering strength out in the Bay of Complacency. We knew it was coming our way. Our representatives knew it was coming. Warnings were everywhere but they were ignored because they were whispers in a windstorm. It's all over now Baby Blue.
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#659860 - 10/14/08 06:09 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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Herbie Gaines
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 2809
Loc: Chicago,IL, USA
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EVERYTHING (just about) is set up as a scam
At the grocery store, there's an ad that says $1.99 lb for chicken breasts...I looked through the whole section and had to ask the butcher where the $1.99 stuff was (It was buried on the bottom) Everything else was $4.99....they figure most people will just pick it up and NOT think (DECEPTION)
GO try and ask a doctor HOW MUCH something is going to cost you
OR a dentist
Yes (Joe) Non disclosure of home problems
I went to a few job interviews where they had a slick presentation about the job and how you can make...they had masses of people...but I got it right away...they want you to come in and SELL their stuff to all your family and friends...and then? good luck ! ! Alot of the people there were like "wow this sounds great"(Deception)
MY BOSS is hiring all these new people and lying through his teeth about how well they can do here...(DECEPTION)
Women and men go online and LIE about who they are and what they are about in order to score...my friend showed me this website where people go in order to have and AFFAIR http://www.ashleymadison.com
(DECEPTION)
LIES deception LIES deception...this is the current USA
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#659863 - 10/14/08 06:28 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Herbie Gaines]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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Gee Herbie, thanks for the tip!
I guess ashley madision is a busy chick.
Yes, vice is in our faces today. It seems to be of biblical proportions- What's that verse about the wheat and tares growing together? Harvest time I guess.
_________________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
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#659865 - 10/14/08 06:35 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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Here's the parable. Just substitute the seven deadly sins for the tares: Greed, Lust, Sloth, Wrath, Envy, Pride and Bud Light
Matthew 13
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
_________________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
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#659906 - 10/14/08 08:49 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Joe,
Assume everything you said was 100% correct. That simply makes the point even stronger to NOT bail out the banks and finance criminals who did all of this. Let them all collapse and give the investment money to healthy local banks who actually meet people face to face and give out valid loans for valid reasons. Instead, we're giving now over 1 trillion dollars to the very thieves who scammed us and the very idiots who fell for the scam. If you and I didn't fall for the scam, or get greedy by taking loans we knew we really couldn't afford or give out the bad loans in the first place, why should WE bear ANY responsibility. Someone's going to lose. Why should it be all of us who actually WORK and PAY TAXES that have to lose? Let the others lose. And if you invested in these bogus companies, then you lose your stock.. that's the risk of investing. We've lost 90% (and we're not even in the financial sector) and that's just the way it goes. I don't want to pay out even MORE on top of that loss.
We bought some stock today. It's already up 10%. That will start to chip away at our other losses. That's a free market. That's what we should allow to happen.
It's like the band-aid process.. rip it off fast for immediate severe pain.. or pull it real slow and agonize for a long long time over it. I prefer the quick method.
This bailout is the most evil and misguided scam that has ever happened in world history. Buying assets for more than market value (which is likely what will happen) lets the banks off the hook at our loss. If we buy these assets for what the market actually says it's worth, then what is the point of the bailout since the banks could get actual market value anyway. So the scam is afoot.
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#659912 - 10/14/08 09:06 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Scott Campbell
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 10861
Loc: Lakeland, FL, USA
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I did some calculations today to confirm or not what folks on TV (like Suze Orman) have been saying. I was astonished.
Suppose you continue to contribute to a 401k every month.
If the market tanks but then returns to its current value, you will actually come out ahead of where you'd be if it had just stayed level over the same period. A LOT further ahead. This happens because you are buying shares at very low prices during those months when the market is at its low point. And when it comes back up, ALL your shares (the ones bought a long time ago and the ones just bought) come up.
Of course, you lose big if you get out when the market is at its low point.
I'm staying the course - I have 10-15 years before I retire.....
Scott
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#659926 - 10/14/08 10:49 PM
Re: Stop The Bailout
[Re: Scott Campbell]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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I was thinking today that if I just bought stock in companies I believed in, I would be doing very well even today. Costco is a company I know and admire. I haven't checked it's stock prices but their business in booming as is Walmart, a company I don't particularly admire- at least not since Sam Walton died. For some reason Burger King is doing very well. Star Bucks? They are closing 600 stores. The unemployment figures are going to go through the roof and the homeless population is going to explode just when states who depend on property taxes are losing revenue because of falling house prices.
I am very fortunate to live where I do. There is barely a change in house prices and employment is high. We are sitting on top of the Barnett Shale and almost every single homeowner in Tarrant County has the mineral rights. Our department secretary told me yesterday that their homeowners association just signed with a natural gas driller for $27,000 per acre. That means every homeowner will be paid that amount per acre just to sign. (They had 4 lawyers in that association), We signed a year ago and got only $4500.00 for our 3 year lease agreement. When they start pumping we will get 23% of the wholesale price of the gas. That can yield anywhere between a couple hundred dollars a month to $1500 per acre. A lot of poor dirt farmers with land around here became millionaires. I like that- it is very grass roots and democratic. The Barnett Shale is expected to last 40 to 80 years.
So I just want to say publicly that I am grateful for what I have; a healthy family, a good job, health insurance, even a little treasure under the porch. I will not ignore a homeless person because except for the grace of God, that's me.
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