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#646174 - 08/27/08 07:27 AM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
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"Tampa Stan" Good
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 26754
Loc: Tampa, Florida since 1973
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Hiya Bro Mike!
I've arrived Late as Usual, Alas...but Listened, Penned Comments, & have scanned a few of the Critiques (Saving Harriet's for after I've posted This, so I'll perhaps not be Too-Brilliant here, but I'll at least be honest. It's all JMO, of course, as is everyone's Crit.)
Think it was Shakespeare who said "Most people live lives of quiet desperation"...(So What's Here has been Said Before.) Still, you've said it Well..or at least presented Your CASE pretty well..(Though I'll come back to debate a key line of yours later.)
The Music feels Popsy Beatles-Influenced, while Lyrics were more on the SoundGarden "Black Hole Sun" side...(As I notice Others Have Mentioned here, so I'm not alone on this "Connection" methinks.) Chorus was Distinct & Catchy & Hook was There, tho it got Equal Time with "Ball & Chain"...so ya might wanna add a last line with Hook in it to clear up Confusion.
The PreChorus' "Transparent Cage" IS quite an Image, but (to this Scuba Enthusiast) requires a TON of Visualizing & Mental-Math to figure out How Thick It Has To Be to sink a diver (with its "weight")..How would they SEAL it..too-thin, it's kickable/breakable..etc.-etc. "Transparent" is frankly kinda Distractive, JMO.
"Feels like a cage surrounding me" would suffice with way less Headscratching..perhaps?
LIKE your "Hundred miles the other way" line..THAT one's quite effective Image-Wise.
All-in-all, it's a decent angst-filled song that's not as TOTALLY-hopeless as say, Barry McGuire's "Eve of Destruction". Your last line nicely sums up all those Acne-Filled Years: "Need to get a life before it passes by, hope it's not too late."
Now, the line I wanna debate ya on:
"Living with a choice we make does not make it right".
I don't think life is made up of all "Right" or "Wrong" Choices.
Every fork in life's road leads SOMEPLACE, & True, SOME places ARE better than others. But.."Contentment" can actually end up making you FAR-Happier than "Achievement" in life, especially if, God Forbid, one's set their sights up Way-TOO-High.
I know of a local Nightclub Singer, now comfortably-retired, who shunned chances to "be a Star" in L.A.--& preferred singing over his piano..to a Tampa Crowd..for over 30 years. Came from a small W.Va Coalmining Town.. "When people ask me why I didn't try to get Further Ahead, it's because they didn't realize How Far I've Come" was a quote of his I've never forgotten. His Choice..& I think that DID make it right..for him. Pat Cole Henry..one of the Nicest, Happiest, Most-Talented Entertainers I've ever met. (Taught me a Lot!)
Good Luck with your song...tho it's too much of a "lament" for me to "enjoy" it..on a personal level.
Big Guy-Hug,
Stan
_________________________
I try to write For The Ages, yet I'm aware about the only 200-year-old Pop Songs that have survived are Nursery Rhymes....
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#646215 - 08/27/08 10:01 AM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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Mike,
Maybe I should have posted this right off the bat because these suggestion are pretty simple- I just think you are using more words than you need to in this song. Let's take the first verse: You say:
I keep trying to tell myself that this is just a phase
I continue to sell myself on hopes of better days
When I think you should have said"
I tell myself that this is just a phase
I sell myself on hopes of better days
It sings more naturally and it accentuates the internal rhyme.
Here:
Under the weight I'm drowning
Transparent cage surrounding me
I like "transparent cage" but logically if you are in a transparent cage, you are looking out from it into the water and so you are not drowning! It's just a little metaphor hiccup that you can ignore but the human mind makes these little connections and you have to be aware of them.
Here you write:
I'm just a prisoner who's shackled and restrained
My lest favorite line in the song because Rock doesn't talk like that. "Shackled" connotes a specific image but what does "restrained" add except to set a a rhyme? It was this line that made me think of the word "pretentious"- and that doesn't mean I think YOU are pretentious. I have written lines that I though were great and 2 weeks later I am blushing with embarrassment because they seem contrived. Here again you have to streamline your metaphors. Are you in a transparent cage AND shackled at the same time? That's a Houdini predicament!
and in last line of the first verse you write:
A victim of the system with the lifeless and mundane
This line doesn't even make grammatical sense. A complete thought is that you are the victim of the system; but then you add "with" the lifeless and mundane. You might mean that the system is forcing you to feel like your life is "lifeless" or that the system itself is "mundane" or that your life is mundane because the system makes life tedious etc., but these two thoughts are not logically connected and certainly not grammatically connected. This may seem like I am being micro-critical but don't we have to be micro critical of the 100 or so words that end up in a 3 and a half minute song?
I want to thank you for posting this song. Every song on this forum has taught us something about the craft of songwriting and the art of talking about songwriting.
_________________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
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#646290 - 08/27/08 02:04 PM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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Mike Caro Substudio
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 7782
Loc: NY
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Mike,
Maybe I should have posted this right off the bat because these suggestion are pretty simple- I just think you are using more words than you need to in this song. Let's take the first verse: You say:
I keep trying to tell myself that this is just a phase
I continue to sell myself on hopes of better days
When I think you should have said"
I tell myself that this is just a phase
I sell myself on hopes of better days
It sings more naturally and it accentuates the internal rhyme.
Here:
Under the weight I'm drowning
Transparent cage surrounding me
I like "transparent cage" but logically if you are in a transparent cage, you are looking out from it into the water and so you are not drowning! It's just a little metaphor hiccup that you can ignore but the human mind makes these little connections and you have to be aware of them.
Here you write:
I'm just a prisoner who's shackled and restrained
My lest favorite line in the song because Rock doesn't talk like that. "Shackled" connotes a specific image but what does "restrained" add except to set a a rhyme? It was this line that made me think of the word "pretentious"- and that doesn't mean I think YOU are pretentious. I have written lines that I though were great and 2 weeks later I am blushing with embarrassment because they seem contrived. Here again you have to streamline your metaphors. Are you in a transparent cage AND shackled at the same time? That's a Houdini predicament!
and in last line of the first verse you write:
A victim of the system with the lifeless and mundane
This line doesn't even make grammatical sense. A complete thought is that you are the victim of the system; but then you add "with" the lifeless and mundane. You might mean that the system is forcing you to feel like your life is "lifeless" or that the system itself is "mundane" or that your life is mundane because the system makes life tedious etc., but these two thoughts are not logically connected and certainly not grammatically connected. This may seem like I am being micro-critical but don't we have to be micro critical of the 100 or so words that end up in a 3 and a half minute song?
I want to thank you for posting this song. Every song on this forum has taught us something about the craft of songwriting and the art of talking about songwriting.
Hi Joe, thanks again!
I understand what your saying, But honestly I would never ever ever change that opening verse melody for the one you suggested. And If I sang it for 20 people in a row 19 of them would agree. The one person would say "I don't know I like them both"  I did figure out a way of making it a little smaller that works but even that was not as cool (trust me). I does not sing more naturally.. Bad suggestion in my book. The drummer, bassist, guitarist, producer & singer feel the same
Okay now what the heck does "Water" have to do with "transparent cage"? do you think every line in a song has to directly connect literally to each other?
Even Stan who I will get back to shortly is talking about "scuba diving" lol...
Oh boy, the un-plugged theory is really kicking in here
Rock doesn't talk like that? you said, So you might be suggesting (even though your not) that you have listened to more Rock than I have lol. How impossible do you think that is?
No! rock talks much worse than that! And I'm not talking about "Chicago" lol...
The trouble that your having with the lyrics is simple and clear as day to me.
Your thinking like a teacher, you talk like a teacher and write like a teacher.
Definitely not like someone who has ever been in a rock band or even is a real big fan of rock. Oh wait you are a teacher! I have great reepect for teachers by the way. But they were never in any of my countless bands
"Logically connected, grammatically correct" That's what has nothing to do with Rock. I also have respect for Country music & writers
But actually Groaning over a line & Embarrassing over lyrics is in many many Country songs to me. And I know of many who feel the same way.
Like "I'd like to check you for Ticks" this is so un-cool and lame to me. That's why it ain't Rock. In rock you didn't & don't get girls with talk like that lol.. not in the 50's, 60's 70's 80's 90's or NOW..
These lines & thoughts make me cringe.... I felt embarrassed for the singer as the words left his mouth.
Everytime you take a sip
in this smoky atmosphere
you press that bottle to your lips
and I wish I was your beer
cause id like to see you out in the moonlight
id like to kiss you way back in the sticks
id like to walk you through a field of wildflowers
and id like to check you for ticks
ill keep you safe you wait and see
the only thing allowed to crawl all over you
when we get there is me
Ands I can dig up 100 more examples, yet I can appreciate the craft & work put in.
Boy! I'm starting to think about that silly "Blue Chair" song video...
But they were hits right? so until I get mine who am I too talk lol.. that old logic keeps all these great current songs on the radio right?
Anway I'm not looking to debate with you.. I know this is how you feel & your being open & honest which I greatly admire. I know how your thinking but I think your thinking is way off base. Just wrong for this whole style and aspect of music. That makes sense to me. I'll visit your songs and in 2 seconds I'll know my thinking is 100% accurate. I don't just study songs and music history I breathe it.
Being an educated man I feel you have a hard time accepting that you could be off base in your thinking. Which is fine, being a life long music person if someone said to me the bass line your playing is all wrong. I would first feel frustrated thinking, "shoot I been playing since I could crawl how could I be this off"? lol for about 2 seconds...
Then I'll say okay cool, how about this? My versatility will pull me right through.
My "feel" my musicaliness - see that made up word lol.. That's what songs are all about being musical. Lyrics are part of it. Your thinking too much trying to use logic.. Without thinking I can leave this musical world, go find yours go right into it and kick butt in the style like it was the only kind of music I ever did. Lyrically , Musically, playing production you name it. It's what I do Joe, it's all I've ever done.
I think if my song was a lyrical disaster Harriet would have said so No?
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#646306 - 08/27/08 03:00 PM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
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Mike Caro Substudio
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 7782
Loc: NY
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Hi Again Joe
Real quick... kinda lol..
This below is the first verse to one of your recent songs.
Thought I was doing all right
When I called her last night
She said that she was just fine
but couldn’t make up her mind
About leaving me for someone new
Good morning blues
Notice the even matching six words each on the first two lines.
See how you suggested I shorten my lines to be more like yours.
You want me line up "sell" right perfectly under "tell" - this thinking to me is a bit contrived lol.. But in your suggestions your trying to convert my style (in this song) into more like yours.
I have loads of songs with short concise verses, I wanted something different on this song. I had a slow moving pulse groove happening, so I wanted an opposite effect melodically. I use a lot of contrast and colors, even the influences come from all over the place.
Also some new angle and variety/originality not only in melody but in lyric. I have never heard anything quite like my opening verse "ever' and I listen to so much music part of my ears are missing.
In your song, (not trying to insult here so please understand) These words the way there sung, everything about it is kind of tired. Even if we aren't talking about (hits & commercial aspects) This is very bland. BUT I do know you can write other things less dull or typical for a fact. And I know this is based in a blues song, so these lyrics are VERY acceptable. Lyrics being acceptable for there style of music.
Now where talking.. this is the heart of the matter here.
Even when I do a blues tune I never come in with what you expect. Never "she left me etc.... I'm so sad, love this, crying that... Even though that's what the blues are all about
Anyway - I'm looking/listening at all your songs/lyrics and like I guessed before and would have won money betting on. You do not write rock songs, R&B songs or
have any link to anything in this particular world I'm coming from on this song.
Here's a quick list of some of your opening song verses, and one poem from a hundred years ago Ya see why we don't relate?
I may not love you forever
but who could last that long
and it isn't fair to love you this much
and to know that someday it will all be gone
I drive out from Amarillo
‘Til I see that grove of willows
and the old windmill that stands on Grandpa’s farm
And even though no wind is blowing
That windmill keeps on going
And scatters all the crows out of the yard
I see the moon, the moon sees me
shining down on my Christmas tree
Please light the light that shines on me
shine on the whole wide world
She keeps her saddle blanket on her trundle bed
vision on snowflakes dance in her head
Her boots and her saddle stand in the hall
Jingle bells and christmas card
hang on her wall
Thought I was doing all right
When I called her last night
She said that she was just fine
but couldn’t make up her mind
About leaving me for someone new
Good morning blues
I once knew all the birds that came
And nested in our orchard trees,
For every flower I had a name---
My friends were woodchucks, toads, and bees;
I knew where thrived in yonder glen
What plants would soothe a stone-bruised toe---
Oh, I was very learned then,
But that was very long ago.
Again I'm not here to analyze your work or too judge it. It's to make a point
for learning and understanding
Peace
Sub
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#646331 - 08/27/08 04:41 PM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
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Kevin Emmrich
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 8628
Loc: Crozet, VA
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not trying to insult here so please understand
Joe's critiques always seem to me to be intelligent and well thought out. Maybe we don't give them as much weight as Harriet's, but I have found Joe's few critiques of my stuff to always hold some important nuggets of value.
Kevin
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#646358 - 08/27/08 05:54 PM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
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Mike Caro Substudio
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 7782
Loc: NY
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not trying to insult here so please understand That phrase always seems to precede an insult (LOL!). I am not sure how this turned into a critique of Joe, but actually I think Joe sings that first verse kinda well. I didn't hear anything "tired or dull" about it. Maybe the blues is not your thing. Joe's critiques always seem to me to be intelligent and well thought out. Maybe we don't give them as much weight as Harriet's, but I have found Joe's few critiques of my stuff to always hold some important nuggets of value. Kevin
Hi Kev
It's always gone sound bad (don't get insulted) lol,,, your right but if you know me which I believe everyone here on a regular basis does then you know where I'm coming from. So you won't get that insulted. I hope Joe don't but he has said things to me in posts before that I could have been very insulted by. Of course I remember them but I know in my heart it was not his intention.
Kev - I come from a different perspective on many things. I don't mind someone telling me what they think is wrong with my work or what have you. But I'm a hands on kinda guy. "You gotta show me" I never drill someone on something I know nothing about. From all his work I can see where he's at just like if I took a written test and handed it to him at his university. I would fail cause I wasn't trained or educated on this subject. Music is my university! And I pound myself over it tough every single day.
The blues not being my thing has nothing to with it.. How could I be a good musician and not know about the blues?
It's about learning this thread, Joe will probably never "get it" and that's okay, the snag is that he probably won't accept that. I appreciate his honesty and opinions but they have no barring in my world at all. I know how people think very very quickly I understand them. Some one here once posted a thread what is your talent?
My gift/talent is reading people So if it's musically related it's even easier for me.
I thought at first to let his review comments kinda go more or less. If you feel my lyrics make you groan & are embarrassing then that's how you feel. But that wouldn't be me to ignore & not try to explain, that's the easy way. I usually always take the hard way!
You didn't think that verse was tired or dull, that's fine. I was only making a point.
I would rather have someone say to me "hey what are you talking about or Why did you say that" or sing that way? Then to take the approach of those particular lyrics and that melody personally.
When I get back to that MP3 board I'm gonna straighten out a few people LOL
I used to say as a reminder there " Folks we are sending each other too many flowers & candy "
And I notice we have been doing that alot again lately.. Were all friends and we pat each other on the back and that is VERY cool. Support! is #1 But we all know that's not always the best way to improve. I love you guys and I'm not gonna go the easy way out.
NIce song take care!
I like to learn & do things the NICE way. But I'm old school to and do not mind having my ass kicked all over the place musically to learn something.
Have always learned the hard way.
I would have loved it also if Harriet kicked it all over this thread, cause I would have came back every week for the rest of my life to show her how hard I work and good I could be. I've been doing that 30 years before I even got here. with no one's push but my own.
Hey Clive - is gonna kick my ass again in about 5 days or so.... Has been doing it for 28 years lol.. I LOVE it! That guy has no idea how much better he has made me become.
So in conclusion I can listen to these certain suggestions but can't give them any kind of real consideration as in my heart & mind I know they are way off. What can I say "alright your right my lyrics are an embarrassment" lol So I'm trying to explain why I felt certain suggestions are way off. And the best way sometimes is to go right into some ones catalog and show them. We are not speaking the same language.
It's like if Joe was reviewing a rap song here. Same Thing! They would perhaps go to Joe's music and say, where's he coming from? The rappers would eat it up And wouldn't listen to a word.
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#646363 - 08/27/08 06:14 PM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
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Kevin Emmrich
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 8628
Loc: Crozet, VA
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When i get back to that MP3 board I'm gonna straighten out a few people LOL
I used to say " Folks we are sending each other too many flowers & candy "
And I notice we have been doing that alot again lately.. Were all friends and we pat each on the back and that is VERY cool. Support! But we all know that's not always the best way to improve.
Unfortunately, I think I am in the opposite camp (LOL!). If I can't find something wrong, I almost feel I haven't listened hard enough and am not showing enough "respect" to the person who is offering up the song for review. I don't want to come across as too grumpy, though -- so I am trying to be more positive (even if it is killing me -- ha, ha!).
Kevin
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#646392 - 08/27/08 07:33 PM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
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Mike Caro Substudio
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 7782
Loc: NY
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Kev- I like Joe and I'm gonna do a free enhancement (if he allows me) on one of his tracks.
I understand what your saying, it's all good bro!
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#646455 - 08/27/08 09:13 PM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
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Mark Schuessler
Serious Contributor
Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 672
Loc: Lockport, NY, USA
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When i get back to that MP3 board I'm gonna straighten out a few people LOL
Me first! Be brutal. (After you take a nice LONG break after this thread, of course.)
Back When I Knew Everything
Hey, I know you're fingers are worn down to stumps trying to keep up with this thread so don't feel you have to respond to this post. I just wanted to add a couple of quick observations.
1. Everyone here knows the high level of your songwriting (& playing & producing) so we took for granted the things you do better than pretty much everyone else here and tried to find those areas that might be improved. If I had posted this song people would have been gushing over it (and not believing I wrote it!) Everyone just EXPECTS this level from you. They are comparing this song to all of your other songs (i.e. "Closer", "There's No Good In Goodbye", etc.) and so you don't get cut any slack.
2. Some of us (OK, maybe it's just me!) look at every song only thinking about the thing we have been focusing on in our own songs. I focus on the leadin to the chorus and the main hook in the chorus. Harriet keeps a much better perspective with her critiques. So do you.
3. Since I've given you "advice" on how to "fix" your hook, your freakin hook has been playing over and over in my head. SO PLEASE TAKE THE TINY HEADPHONES OFF THE MARK VOODOO DOLL!
Mark
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#646517 - 08/27/08 11:23 PM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Mark Schuessler]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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Sub, Woah! Slow down. I'll take some time to read through your comments later tonight. For now, just perusing the post it seems like you may have a couple of misconceptions about me. For instance, I work at a university but I don't teach. I am a television engineer at TCU in Fort Worth. I work in the College of Communications and build studios and editing systems for television production in Radio-TV-Film and Journalism and for the Jumbo Tron and instant replay in the football stadium, baseball and basketball. Also, I was in a working band for 15 years in Eugene, Oregon and while I'll admit it was a Country band, I played a lot of Eagles, James Taylor, old Rock and Roll, Beatles etc. I'm almost a generation older than you I suspect. I tuned out ACDC and some other important Rock stuff. I tuned out Disco too, so my musically genre knowledge is not extensive. I love, as my 14-year-old does, the movie "School of Rock" and the humor associated with the idea of there being a "heart and soul" of Rock music or there being some kind of purity about it is amusing. I concede that you live and breathe music and I completely respect that. I think what you are doing for you clients her on JPF's and what you have done for Brian and JPF is admirable.
I just have an opinion about this one song and that is really all I am talking about. Give me a chance to pick my favorite of yours and I'll probably have nothing but good things to say about it. I am more familiar with what you have done with your JPF clients and I have always been impressed with those colaborations. You are a complete musician and producer.
I agree with you that anyone who has the audacity to criticize a work must be willing to take criticism of his work. Obviously someone's whose own work is terrible is not going to be a credible critic of anther's. But I think all comments are useful. We can generally sort out what are thoughtful and what are trivial comments. Then we apply our artistic filters and decide if the criticism is valid or not. That is what I expect you to do and if all I did was help you think about your song and made you even more sure that you did it the way to intended, then even that is useful.
And by the way, the only songs I post on soundclick are songs in the predemo stage. The only exceptions I can think of is on couchgouch's (a cowriter) soundclick site. The mix on "How many fingers am I holding up" was done in Nashville and cost $700- and then the singer didn't do it right so I ended up doing the vocal myself. "The Shortest Verse" was mixed by a friend who knows ProTools and we brought in a pro steel guitar player. I am kind of superstitious about posting a final recording on soundclick. And they are expensive to come by because unlike you, I don't have the patience or talent to do it all myself. I love doing stuff live with good musicians around me and I detest slaving away in a studio mixing tracks. Two takes of the vocal and I am already exhausted.
_________________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
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#646578 - 08/28/08 04:59 AM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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niteshift
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 4049
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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Hey Sub,
Dang, I missed this weeks' round !
Anyways, good song. I can certainly relate to the lyrics, and the music is happening as it sould be. It works.
Flowers and candy coming you way,  although, I prefer pizza and beer.
cheers, niteshift
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#646579 - 08/28/08 05:09 AM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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Mike Caro Substudio
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 7782
Loc: NY
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Thanks Joe, especially for being understanding and not snarly like me lol...
I'm a ball of stress over here and lost another tooth last night
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#646581 - 08/28/08 05:18 AM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
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niteshift
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 4049
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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PS..... here's a suggestion ?
As, sometimes, these critiques get a little long winded, how about, for the next round, adopting the standard Taxi critique ?
In that way, there is consistency, and the writer is much more able to add everything up,and siphon off what is irrelevant.
AFTER the mentor posts his/her critique, then we can go back to open format.
TAXI CUSTOM CRITIQUE
Style
__ On target for today's market in ________ genre
__ Not current sounding
__ Hard to classify
Style Comments:
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
Melody
__ Good music in verses
__ Verses could be stronger
__ Good music in chorus
__ Verses/Chorus sound too similar
__ Memorable Hook
__ Hook not obvious enough
Melody Comments:
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
Structure
__ Intro too long
__ Well-written structure
__ Good sectional contrast
__ Not enough sectional contrast
__ Could use a bridge
Structure Comments:
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
Lyric
__ First line makes me want to hear more
__ Engaging
__ Cohesive
__ Good use of imagery
__ Rhymes well
__ Communicates emotion to listener
__ Lacks focus
__ Unique
__ Too abstract
__ I don't understand it
__ Too predictable
__ Too many cliches
__ Awkward phrasing
__ Vocal does not help to sell song
__ Vocal does help to sell song
Lyrcial Comments:
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
Title
__ Good title
__ So-So title
__ Can't determine title by listening
__ Could appear in a more strategic place
__ Doesn't repeat enough
__ Repeats too often
Title Comments:
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
OVERALL COMMENTS
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
Now give a rating 1 to 10, 1 being the worst, 10 being the best:
__ Music
__ Lyrics
__ Marketability
__ Arrangement
__ Production
__ Engineering
NOW. Would you walk this into a label credibility on this music?
__ YES
__ NO
NOW. Give a reason why did or didn't forward (reconmmend )this:
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
What do you all think ?
cheers, niteshift
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#646588 - 08/28/08 05:47 AM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Mark Schuessler]
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Mike Caro Substudio
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 7782
Loc: NY
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When i get back to that MP3 board I'm gonna straighten out a few people LOL
Me first! Be brutal. (After you take a nice LONG break after this thread, of course.) Back When I Knew EverythingHey, I know you're fingers are worn down to stumps trying to keep up with this thread so don't feel you have to respond to this post. I just wanted to add a couple of quick observations. 1. Everyone here knows the high level of your songwriting (& playing & producing) so we took for granted the things you do better than pretty much everyone else here and tried to find those areas that might be improved. If I had posted this song people would have been gushing over it (and not believing I wrote it!) Everyone just EXPECTS this level from you. They are comparing this song to all of your other songs (i.e. "Closer", "There's No Good In Goodbye", etc.) and so you don't get cut any slack. 2. Some of us (OK, maybe it's just me!) look at every song only thinking about the thing we have been focusing on in our own songs. I focus on the leadin to the chorus and the main hook in the chorus. Harriet keeps a much better perspective with her critiques. So do you. 3. Since I've given you "advice" on how to "fix" your hook, your freakin hook has been playing over and over in my head. SO PLEASE TAKE THE TINY HEADPHONES OFF THE MARK VOODOO DOLL! Mark
Mark your too funny
Hey feel asleep at 7:am the mailman rang my bell at 10:am I never feel back to sleep. Then a 5 piece Rock band came in for a session. They are very funny guys.
I sang The "Ticks" song to them and they could not stop laughing, they thought I was joking. Quote - "that is the corniest [naughty word removed] I ever heard. Bad man!"
After six hours of that we started rebuilding a new computer for the studio till 3:30 am. Meanwhile I reeling all over the place lol... not funny actually but I don't care anymore.
Now it's back to here.......
Thanks for your kind words and encouragement. I listen to Stevie Wonder and surely know how far far away from great I am. No one ever has to tell me.
I have had my heart filled & crushed my whole life musically. Mostly crushed!
And I know I don't get the slack, I don't even give it to myself you have to see the faces on those who come into my little world here Ask John Daubert he knows.
And so does the "Too Little Time Band" and anyone else who walks through the door lol..
Mark - I honestly thought I was gonna get hammered through the floor on this review. I underestimated Harriet's experience and I never will again for sure I didn't think she'd get me, and she did 100% She really understands the game and she has real range. I will turn to her again in the future.
Bro - The head phones are OFF lol.. Hey Tripp makes dolls ya know!
I'll check out your tune asap, I'm trying to get Jim O's drum track done.
Maybe I should go to bed. ya think?
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#646595 - 08/28/08 06:14 AM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: ]
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Mike Caro Substudio
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 7782
Loc: NY
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Hi Stan buddy - thanks for all the props
I didn't forget you and I apologize for being so brief here I am utterly wiped out
"Transparent cage" is a very cool image. It has nothing to do with water, scuba diving: How it would seal. not leak, is it kickable, breakable? lol... It's invisible and around millions of people every single day of there lives. All lines in a song do not have to directly connect.
"Feels like a cage" isn't gonna cut it thanks but...
"Black Hole Sun" & Soundgarden - Nope no one else even came close to mentioning them I did that That was part of my whole point about not being in tune and reaching for "Mamma Told me Not to Come" 1970 and Rainbows Ronnie James Dio for examples. And Of course it's a bit Beatley as "Black Whole Sun" is Beatley as well. My singer here sang with Ricky Martin in Menudo he don't know who Dio is lol...
I also mentioned the opening Creedance Chord
"Living with the choice" life is made up of LOADS of wrong & right choices. People get reminded of it more than they like to mention or think about. Lets start with just a visit to a prison and do an interview lol...
But I was also going for a riddle like effect on that line. I wanted the listener to think about it. And I wanted the girl who's being abused by her spouse who WON"T leave because she doesn't want to break up her family, for the sake of the 4 kids.
To say "I made this bed now I DON"T have to lie in it....
Good thoughts here Stan and some very positive ones. I have very positive ones too there just not really meant for this song
peace bro!
Must Sleep!
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#646761 - 08/28/08 03:56 PM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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A little lunch break here so I read a few comments. Sub, just a couple of very short rebuttal's:
You say:
"Okay now what the heck does "Water" have to do with "transparent cage"?
...Because your previous line was, "Under the weight I'm DROWNING"
Do you think every line in a song has to directly connect literally to each other?
..Yes, I guess I do believe that unless I am having a conversation with my wife, then all bets are off.
"These lines & thoughts make me cringe.... I felt embarrassed for the singer as the words left his mouth.
Everytime you take a sip
in this smoky atmosphere
you press that bottle to your lips
and I wish I was your beer"
That would be Brad Paisley...I hate that song too. My idea of a good country song is "Whiskey Lullaby" which Brad Paisley did with my favorite female singer Alison Krauss.
"Without thinking I can leave this musical world, go find yours go right into it and kick butt in the style like it was the only kind of music I ever did. Lyrically , Musically, playing production you name it. It's what I do Joe, it's all I've ever done".
...Cool, would you mind playing lead guitar in my band?
_________________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
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#646780 - 08/28/08 06:14 PM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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Mike Caro Substudio
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 7782
Loc: NY
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If you believe that every line has to be directly connected to the line before or after it or actually (make any sense at all) then you do not understand anything about rock music well at least lyrics anyway. That is the simple point I've been trying to make since the very first response post. Hopefully you'll accept that
I don't feel like pasting 100,000 examples to prove my point. lol
Again if I was a disaster Harriet would have pointed it out clearly!
Lets see what did she say?
"So paying homage to a time when harmony and melody were very important apparently works well in this song because there's tremendous variation between sections, harmonically, melodically and rhythmically. There's so much craft in the putting of the words and music together, that to my mind, that simply screams "commercial." I'm not known for trying to make things "commercial.
I'm much more interested in their being good, emotionally impactful and relatable and authentic. Well, the craft in this song achieves all of what I've just listed much more easily than a song that merely has a strong hook that repeats endlessly or is upbeat or has a happy ending or any of the myriad of other things music industry personnel dream up so they can try to second guess what people want and keep their jobs.
" Does it say something authentic that people will relate to? Does it say it in a way that's visual enough for people to remain interested? Does it say it in a way that draws the listener into the experience? Or is it something "written" around a "good idea" that lies there like a lox that no one will care about? This song does so many things right."
"Everything makes sense with a story even remotely like this one"
"I keep coming back to the craft in this song. There's internal rhyming--and rhyming at the end of lines and where the musical sequences indicate a rhyme should be."
"This song has all three sections musically different. If you listen to only one thing, listen to that. What a breath of fresh air."
"I agree with Brian that it would be good for everyone on this wonderful board to say what he or she likes about a song. That's a very good learning experience. It's a muscle that really needs to be built, because if you know what's good in good writing, you can adopt those practices. To develop a lot of rules about what to avoid can cripple a writer. I think the differing opinions expressed here are all worth reading, but I think it would be especially helpful if you all said what particular thing the writer is doing which you like and which you would like to implement in a future song. There's a lot to learn about how to combine words and music in "The Grind," as well as from many other craft points I've mentioned and no doubt, some I've missed. I'm not talking about copying subject matter or musical style. I'm talking about the very thing that separates good writers from great ones and amateurs from professionals. If you can learn from someone who's doing it right, why not? If something isn't your cup of tea, then find something else to learn from. Don't force yourself if you don't like something. We all have different tastes. But something with a lot of craft, if you also like it, is the perfect thing to study."
I LOVE to read my own press clips BIG LOL I have so little of them to read, it's pathetic. Only "The wall of was" as we call it here at home
This song isn't close to my best work overall, another reason I posted it. But yet I done good And I'm pleased that my hard work hit the mark in so many ways.
Also I thought more people could pick up something useful from it here much more so than the mp3 board were many times such detail is NEVER touched upon.
This was all very cool, I have so very little to be proud about these days.
Oh yeah Joe -
I wish I could but I don't play in bands anymore. But I can be in your virtual band You can send me a song online & I will have your lead guitar back to you in 24-48 hours. That's also what I do And not too shabby for a bassist lol...
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#646812 - 08/28/08 07:25 PM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: niteshift]
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Mike Caro Substudio
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 7782
Loc: NY
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Hey Sub, Dang, I missed this weeks' round ! Anyways, good song. I can certainly relate to the lyrics, and the music is happening as it sould be. It works. Flowers and candy coming you way, although, I prefer pizza and beer. cheers, niteshift
Hey Nite
Especially our pizza here!
The TAXI lay out isn't a bad thing for another thread specifically set up like that perhaps.
But definitely not for this one. This is much more detailed & insightful but most importantly learning wise it's better and I think that's the focal point.
Thanks!
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#646815 - 08/28/08 07:28 PM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Jean Bullock]
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Mike Caro Substudio
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 7782
Loc: NY
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Hi, Mike!
I would like to address the lyrics first. Except for a few lines that I think should be deleted for musical reasons, they are perfect as is. They describe very well the feelings of those who are frustrated with their situation and have been for a very long time. I can relate to this. It is exactly how I am personally feeling right now and I couldn't have said it any better. Sometimes we need songs like these. It's like talking to someone who really knows exactly how we feel. There are times when we don't want to hear that things will get better. We just need to express how we feel. Sometimes the negativity in a song like this can actually help us release the feelings that are trapped inside. Once expressed, they can actually make us feel better rather than worse. One of my favorite songs is "Break Stuff." I may not walk around saying the words that are in that song, but I sure feel like it and I feel better after the song.
Regarding the melody: I think most of it suits the song very well. I would prefer to hear the pre-chorus reduced to "Under the weight I'm drowning, Transparent cage surrounding me, " and then going directly into the chorus. Can't tell you why, I just do. I also think that the instrumental bit just before the second verse could be deleted. Again, it's just an instinctive thing.
The singing was very good and I could understand all of the words. You have a very good voice and it is well suited for this kind of music.
Production values:
I would like to hear the accompaniment a little lower in volume when the vocals are being sung.
The sibilance could use adjusting - it is very pronounced throughout the whole song. The cymbals in places also sounded very tinny. It made me wonder if perhaps the treble was up too high. It could be just me though, because I usually lower the treble and raise the bass a little when I am listening to the music on the radio, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
The reverb (I think that is what it's called) is Ok in the beginning but as it continues through the music, it becomes an irritant to me. I think just using it at the beginning and maybe at the end would be OK.
So all in all, I really liked the performance, words and music. It is solid lyric writing and composing in my opinion. If I heard it on the radio I would listen to the whole thing.
Good luck to you.
Thanks Jean!
Some are your suggestions and alternatives are VERY good. If you were here with me in the creative process I would have tried many of them out right there on the spot Definitely!
Thanks!
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#646821 - 08/28/08 07:40 PM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Scott Campbell]
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Mike Caro Substudio
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 7782
Loc: NY
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I like the wordiness of the chorus though - shooting those words out like bullets is important to the feel here, in my opinion....
Scott
Hi Buddy
You bet they are! It's also why I didn't speed the song up, I wanted it to plot & chug along, just like The Grind does... and it would give me the space to shoot out those words. Almost very slightly like rap accept with cool melodies, lifts, drops and soul.
Thanks!
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#646864 - 08/28/08 09:25 PM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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"If you believe that every line has to be directly connected to the line before or after it or actually (make any sense at all) then you do not understand anything about rock music well at least lyrics anyway. That is the simple point I've been trying to make since the very first response post. Hopefully you'll accept that"
Sub, yes I defer to your knowledge of Rock. I actually regret saying "rock doesn't talk like that". I knew better. I'm not sure weather you are advocating complete non sequitur in music though. How could we ever evaluate what is a good lyric then- if virtually anything goes? I guess for me, a great lyric is like pornography- I know it when I see it.
Sheryl Crow sounded great tonight on the on the Democratic National convention.
Nice sparring with you Sub. I'll try to pay more attention to your stuff from now on. Maybe you can help me expand my musical horizons.
_________________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
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#646915 - 08/29/08 06:08 AM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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Mike Caro Substudio
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 7782
Loc: NY
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Cool Joe!
Just wanted to say thanks again to all of you and especially to Harriet for doing this.
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#646920 - 08/29/08 06:32 AM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
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Kevin Emmrich
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 8628
Loc: Crozet, VA
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I would like to Thank all of you personally but I can't cause I'm not speaking with some of you anymore, so there!
??
Kevin
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#646944 - 08/29/08 08:13 AM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Nice to see some robust discussion again. Thanks Harriet and everyone for getting involved this time around. The next process will start with new entries early next week for Pat Luboff's next go round.
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney 
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#646995 - 08/29/08 01:09 PM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: niteshift]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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PS..... here's a suggestion ?
As, sometimes, these critiques get a little long winded, how about, for the next round, adopting the standard Taxi critique ?
In that way, there is consistency, and the writer is much more able to add everything up,and siphon off what is irrelevant.
AFTER the mentor posts his/her critique, then we can go back to open format.
TAXI CUSTOM CRITIQUE
Style
__ On target for today's market in ________ genre
__ Not current sounding
__ Hard to classify
Style Comments:
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
Melody
__ Good music in verses
__ Verses could be stronger
__ Good music in chorus
__ Verses/Chorus sound too similar
__ Memorable Hook
__ Hook not obvious enough
Melody Comments:
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
Structure
__ Intro too long
__ Well-written structure
__ Good sectional contrast
__ Not enough sectional contrast
__ Could use a bridge
Structure Comments:
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
Lyric
__ First line makes me want to hear more
__ Engaging
__ Cohesive
__ Good use of imagery
__ Rhymes well
__ Communicates emotion to listener
__ Lacks focus
__ Unique
__ Too abstract
__ I don't understand it
__ Too predictable
__ Too many cliches
__ Awkward phrasing
__ Vocal does not help to sell song
__ Vocal does help to sell song
Lyrcial Comments:
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
Title
__ Good title
__ So-So title
__ Can't determine title by listening
__ Could appear in a more strategic place
__ Doesn't repeat enough
__ Repeats too often
Title Comments:
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
OVERALL COMMENTS
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
Now give a rating 1 to 10, 1 being the worst, 10 being the best:
__ Music
__ Lyrics
__ Marketability
__ Arrangement
__ Production
__ Engineering
NOW. Would you walk this into a label credibility on this music?
__ YES
__ NO
NOW. Give a reason why did or didn't forward (reconmmend )this:
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
What do you all think ?
cheers, niteshift
Thanks niteshift I'm gonna print this out because it does give us a systematic way to analyze our own lyrics even if we don't apply to anyone else.
sjh
_________________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
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#647248 - 08/30/08 09:57 AM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
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Caroline
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3262
Loc: Texas
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Hi Mike,
I'm late but I'm glad to see I'm not the only one!
I like the last two lines of the second verse the most. I think they really are the best of what this whole song has to give.
I couldn't get the page up to listen so I have nothing to offer about the music, but I probably wouldn't anyway. Not being able to play well enough keeps me from giving any crits, unless it's just way off.
I think your chorus could lose the last two lines and keep it's integrity.
The song doesn't progress as I'd hoped it would, but not all songs will. I was looking for something to offer some hope at the end, but it still works without that.
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#647354 - 08/30/08 03:01 PM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
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Jean Bullock
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 09/18/01
Posts: 10244
Loc: Anaheim, CA, USA
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#647491 - 08/31/08 12:42 AM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Joanne Lurgio]
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Mike Caro Substudio
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 7782
Loc: NY
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DOGGONITT!!! I'm Late!!! Thought Harriet's post was tonight!! Oh well!! I have read this through a dozen times and listened just as many (with pleasure) I was having a difficult time coming up with thoughts to share, there was so much I enjoyed. Of course .. i read Harriet's critique. Congratulations Mike.. awesome critique .. well deserved for a well crafted song. All the best Thank you Joanne Joanne
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#647493 - 08/31/08 01:07 AM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Mark Kaufman]
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Mike Caro Substudio
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 7782
Loc: NY
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Thank You Mark!
Such kind words!
You know what it's like to wear a lot of hats. You also have an excellent understanding of how I operate.
Again anyone can like or dislike something, it's all subjective. Actually the whole business is too subjective for my tastes lol.
The hell with "how do they do look?" Can they sing pretty decently?" "Can they dance"?
What is there depth?? How deep are they? Or is it flash & gone?
Working very hard to achieve being well rounded! In every possible regard.
When someone hears my work in the business they always usually pick out the thing or things they personally need me for.
I don't mind that although it does interfere with my original plans usually.
I want them to think and truly believe that I had only one or two parts in what they are hearing. Mistake me over & over for only being say the writer of this song or perhaps an audio engineer or the producer.
Hard work and commitment is really what I'm getting at. I want people to think some band did this song.
I want people who don't know this kind of music not relate to it. Cause then I know I hit the mark, they shouldn't relate to it
Then I come back tomorrow and do the same thing the other way.
You can't please everyone..Well I can! And I will not stop trying lol...
Thanks bro!
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#647494 - 08/31/08 01:09 AM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Wendy D]
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Mike Caro Substudio
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 7782
Loc: NY
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Thanks Wendy & Scott
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#647501 - 08/31/08 01:31 AM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Caroline]
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Mike Caro Substudio
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 7782
Loc: NY
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Hi Mike,
I'm late but I'm glad to see I'm not the only one!
I like the last two lines of the second verse the most. I think they really are the best of what this whole song has to give.
I couldn't get the page up to listen so I have nothing to offer about the music, but I probably wouldn't anyway. Not being able to play well enough keeps me from giving any crits, unless it's just way off.
I think your chorus could lose the last two lines and keep it's integrity.
The song doesn't progress as I'd hoped it would, but not all songs will. I was looking for something to offer some hope at the end, but it still works without that.
Hi Caroline & thanks!
Sorry it didn't play for you.
It's cool.. You don't have to be able to play really well to know what you like.
I like those two lines as well. even though my favorite is still
"I didn't see the signs I drove a hundred miles the other way"
But yes the person singing jumps away from talking about "I" and says hey
"All of you know what I'm talking about, you know it's not only my fault"
"I was desperate and I made this choice, I'm big enough to stay it out but that may not be the best thing to do"
Anyway -Who wants to admit they were wrong?
The hope at the end is there slightly, but i never want you "out of this mood"
In the movie "The Perfect Storm" I do not want the entire cast to die at sea. But they do, and I watch it again.
A horror movie sometimes ends without the killer being caught or monster being killed. And of course many times they do end well...
This song is like that.
I also believe in applying some rules from different styles and mixing them with others from different kinds of songs. bending, breaking, switching....
Down songs can be upbeat,, Up songs can be down beat.. We can use any instrument we want.
If you hear a love song that breaks your heart and makes you cry, does it have to turn out "hopeful" or do you go back to it for that particular in the moment emotion.
I am forever glad "Eric Carmen" remains "All By Himself" And is "Never Gonna Fall In Love Again" Those two songs kill me everytime
Thanks again to all.
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#648242 - 09/02/08 03:52 PM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
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Mike Caro Substudio
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 7782
Loc: NY
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Hi
While waiting for the next entries and since this week's process is still around I've added a link to the mp3 board.
This medley shows other songs I have that use all kinds of patterns, schemes and things to get into a song. It's only intro's and verses with no choruses. Which is part of the point "hooks before the hook"
Short clips & It takes 6:30 minutes to listen to it.
http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/648092/page/1#Post648092
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#648365 - 09/03/08 12:19 AM
Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
[Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Okay.. this one is done. See you next time!
Thanks to Harriet and everyone who participated!
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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