Just Plain Folks Music Organization Message Boards: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"

#644884 - 08/23/08 12:47 AM Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind"
Brian Austin Whitney Brian Austin Whitney Bard of the Boards Registered: 04/20/01 Posts: 16289 Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA	Hi Folks, This week's pick by Harriet Schock for the Mentor Critique is Mike Caro's "The Grind." She will be posting her critique on Tuesday, so starting now we'd like to get all of your critiques on this. Remember, lyrics/mp3's are not chosen on what is best or worst, but rather what will make for an interesting educational discussion of what was done well, what can be improved and basic building blocks for writing strong lyrics and songs. Please jump in and then once Harriet posts, see if you noticed the same points. Thanks again to Harriet and everyone who has already participated. If you didn't get chosen (or didn't enter) and would still like a Professional Critique by Harriet Schock, or take a class in person or one of her on-line courses, please check her website at http://www.harrietschock.com. For now, let's hear your thoughts on Mike's entry! Remember that Mike should not post a response until AFTER Harriet posts her critique. The Grind 3:30 http://www.substudiomusic.com/TheGrind.mp3 I keep trying to tell myself that this is just a phase I continue to sell myself on hopes of better days I'm just a prisoner who's shackled and restrained A victim of the system with the lifeless and mundane Under the weight I'm drowning Transparent cage surrounding me Nothing can save or stop me from sinking Sinking low, sinking slow I can't stand the grind It's like I'm doing time with a ball and chain I didn't see the signs I drove a hundred miles the other way I can't stand the grind It's like I'm doing time with a ball and chain Need to get a life before it passes by hope It's not too late While I'm thinking clock is ticking out of my control One more bad decision and I'll never leave this hole Our desperation changes what we do in life Living with a choice we made does not make it right Under the weight I'm drowning Transparent cage surrounding me Nothing can save or stop me from sinking Sinking low, thinking go I can't stand the grind It's like I'm doing time with a ball and chain I didn't see the signs I drove a hundred miles the other way I can't stand the grind It's like I'm doing time with a ball and chain Need to get a life before it passes by I need a change of pace I can't stand the grind It's like I'm doing time with a ball and chain I didn't see the signs I drove a hundred miles the other way I can't stand the grind It's like I'm doing time with a ball and chain Need to get a life before it passes by hope It's not too late _________________________ Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#644906 - 08/23/08 03:05 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
Dayson Dayson Serious Contributor Registered: 08/01/06 Posts: 277 Loc: San Diego California United St...	Hi Mike, Thanks for giving us a chance to give our opinions of your song. The track feel didn't sound as current as I think it could have. I think you get your message across about being sick of the grind Pretty well, but I feel that the story itself has not progressed. Although this may not be a fundamental rule, I think this song Should give the listener a little hope or light at the end of the tunnel. There are a lot of really good things going on as well. I like the melody of the chorus. Chorus I can't stand the grind It's like I'm doing time with a ball and chain I didn't see the signs I drove a hundred miles the other way I can't stand the grind It's like I'm doing time with a ball and chain Need to get a life before it passes by hope It's not too late I particularly like the line “I didn't see the signs I drove a hundred miles the other way” One other possible nit would be the “previous word association” What I mean by that is, lines like “ball & chain” to me doesn’t quite flow With the “Sign & Highway” image, imho. Songs in this genre do not have to go into detail about Why the singer is feeling this way, but I felt like I wanted a little more Story about why the singer is feeling the way that he does. Second verse is a little mysterious to me, I’m not sure if you are taking responsibility for the “Bad Choices” Made for being in the hole, so to speak? Or justify those choices to yourself? Maybe it could use a little more focus on what exactly you might want to say or Want your audience to take with them. I think overall it’s has a strong attitude and feel, but has a lot of room for growth. Thanks again for sharing this with us! -Dana
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#644995 - 08/23/08 10:27 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Dayson]
Ricki E. Bellos Ricki E. Bellos Top 100 Poster Registered: 04/12/08 Posts: 3817 Loc: Wisconsin	Hi Mike, There is a school of thought, I think it's a Nashville thing, that songs should be up tempo, and upbeat because life is hard enough and people don't want to listen to music that might throw reality in their face, blah, blah, blah. I think if a song shows me something I can relate to, or touches me in some way, upbeat or depressing, it has done what music is supposed to do, touch me. I can relate to this song. I think it has universal appeal and the whys and wherefores become irrelevant. I can fill in the blanks from my own experience and make it more personal. Musically, this is a cool song too. The guitar reminds me of Three Dog Night for some odd reason. It really drives right from the start all the way through, the changes keeping it interesting. The only nit I have is in the second lift (I think it's a lift). "Sinking low, thinking go". Not sure what that means. I really like the image of "Transparent cage surrounding me". It's the one we create for ourselves and it's hard to break out when you can't see it. This reminds me of something I read a long time ago. "So caged, the bars are in his brain. So barred, his brain is but a cage." Having said all that, in the end, the writer knows he has control and knows what to do and there is your ray of hope. "Need to get a life before it passes by hope It's not too late". Ricki _________________________ http://www.soundclick.com/rickib http://soundcloud.com/rickib http://www.stoneybeachmusic.com/index.html One door closes, another opens
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#645017 - 08/23/08 12:17 PM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Ricki E. Bellos]
Amy Bogue Amy Bogue Serious Contributor Registered: 07/25/08 Posts: 97 Loc: Tampa, FL	Hi Mike, I'm not sure how qualified I am to critique anyone's songs - but I will give it my best shot. I really like the music on this song - and I especially like the chorus - it has a great feel to it. I was a little hung up on the melody in the verses - sounds a little bit forced or something to me, I'm not sure. Also, I felt like in the third line of the prechorus - "nothing can save or stop me from sinking" , that the melody here should be a little different instead of so similar to the first two lines. Then in the end, I think it needs something to signify that it's the end of the song - maybe dynamics - getting softer or something. I don't know, I could be wrong there, it just seemed like something was missing there. Lyrics - I like them a lot! I don't feel the need for songs to have a happy ending or a promise of hope. I guess maybe I'm a little weird because I like songs that are downers lol. Besides, there is hope "that this is just a phase" . I can totally relate to this feeling - "I'm just a prisoner who's shackled and restrained A victim of the system with the lifeless and mundane" great lines! Also - the lyrics of the chorus are really good - I think your chorus is strong. If I had to find a weakness in the lyrics it would be here: "While I'm thinking clock is ticking out of my control One more bad decision and I'll never leave this hole Our desperation changes what we do in life Living with a choice we made does not make it right" With the exception of the second line, which I think is really great - the rest of this confuses me just a little bit. Heck, I think it's a really good song - I'm just trying to look at it and think if it was mine, what could I do to make it any better. I feel like this is a really good song that's just on the edge of being great - it just needs a little something to give it that edge. _________________________ Amy "Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend." ~ Albert Camus http://www.myspace.com/songsbyamy http://www.soundclick.com/amybogue
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#645024 - 08/23/08 12:38 PM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
Kathy Bampfield Kathy Bampfield Serious Contributor Registered: 01/30/04 Posts: 1124 Loc: Norristown, PA, USA	I like the music to this song and the lyrics compliment it.... this is not a country song so I think the negative emotion is fine...IMO there are 2 themes going on though, one the ball and chain which is a very strong image....the other is the drowning and sinking....again a strong image....IMO I would pick one and go with that thru the lyrics...the picture switchs so abruptly in your head that the continuity stop/starts. Over all I like the feel, lyrics and the power of what it says. _________________________ Kathy katherine bampfield home
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#645111 - 08/23/08 07:50 PM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Kathy Bampfield]
Frank N Furter Frank N Furter Serious Contributor Registered: 04/14/07 Posts: 185 Loc: USA	Hi, I'll give this a try, but I'm a lousy critic. lol (BTW, I can't listen, and I am aware of the huge difference music can make with a lyric such as this...) I say "lyric such as this" in that there is no new ground covered, so to speak, from the opening verse on. You seem to have only two verses, both saying essentially the same thing (along with the other "parts"), even within the same line, as with "shackled and restrained" and "sinking, sinking low," "lifeless and mundane,"as well as "save or stop me." Each couplet is a bit repetitive, I think. You might be better served to use an adverb in place of the first adjective, such as in line 3... "I'm just a prisoner who's shackled and restrained" I'm just a prisoner who's constantly restrained (or some such) I think it is interesting that you have what appears to be a somewhat neurotic, mildly schizoid (hang on there...now I'M being repetitive! $\:\)$ ) personality defined so quickly. He goes from attempts at optimism ("trying"), to accomplished optimism ("sell myself"), to utter hopelessness (" shackled"), to victimization, all in the first quatrain. Fascinating. You've done Rod Serling proud (no mean feat!). I think that 4th line might read better as... THE (he isn't really concerned if anyone else is in his shoes) victim of A system THAT IS lifeless and mundane This line perplexes me: "I didn't see the signs I drove a hundred miles the other way" Seems to me the signs would be those of warning, which usually mean "Halt! Do not proceed in this direction." If that is the case, it serves him well to drive a hundred miles the other way. Unless you are saying the signs were there saying "This way to El Dorado," and he then headed in the opposite direction. ha I also find it something of an anomaly (which certainly is not incongruous with this guy's demeanor) that, in what appears to be a bridge, you have him ensconced in the same bitter introspection, as has been the case throughout your lyric, until you reach those last 2 lines, wherein he becomes something of a philosopher. "Our desperation changes what we do in life Living with a choice we made does not make it right" So even a put upon, hopeless pessimist is capable of the occasional epiphany, eh? lol On the whole, an interesting diversion. FnF PS So glad I didn't post this earlier. While visiting someone with speakers this afternoon, I had a chance to hear your song. My jaw dropped after the first couple of notes. Gadzooks! Twilight Zone, no less. Upon listening further, I felt as though I had journeyed back in time and was on some sort of magical mystery tour. As I noted earlier, the music can indeed change one's perspective. That isn't to say the words couldn't or shouldn't be polished, but if Dick Clark were to ask, I'd have to say it's got a good beat, and is easy to do a Martian-type dance to. Moreover, I would BUY it! $;\)$
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#645126 - 08/23/08 08:27 PM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Kathy Bampfield]
Derek Hines Derek Hines Top 100 Poster Registered: 08/14/07 Posts: 4809 Loc: United States Oregon	Hey Mike I think the reason I get this where others are struggling is because you and I are kindred spirits... I may be way off but this is my take on the lyric.. It's not sposed to make perfect sense... it's like you're standing there in the middle of chaos and confusion trying to make sense of it all.. one idea doesn't fully line up with another because you are trying to make sense out of all of it... that's why the mixed metaphors.. what really speaks to me is the fact that the lyric is emotion driven... which means it doesn't have to make sense, because afterall do emotions always make perfect sense? Hardly... One crit I do have is that your prechorus sounds more drawn out than is my style... I can feel you building to the chorus and I know that once you get there it's hard and fast, but it feels like the pre-chorus really drags JMO... The music was top notch in my opinion and fits the song to a tee.. One thing I maybe missed is a little more layering of guitars, but then I'm a guitar freak lol...(did I mention Lynard Skynard is one of my alltime favorite bands? next to the Beatles and Eagles that is $;\)$ ) Back to the lyric... one thing that I think could possibly take this one over the top is giving some examples as to why our singer is so deseperately down... ,but then that would change the song a lot from what it is... and I for one get it and like it as it stands $\:\)$ ....Though I might be biased since you and I think a lot alike $;\)$ All in all a great job I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the matter $\:\)$ Derek Edited by Derek Hines (08/24/08 12:17 AM) _________________________ All the worlds a song and all the people Singers http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pageartist.cfm?bandID=740346
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#645141 - 08/23/08 08:57 PM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Derek Hines]
Rob L Rob L Serious Contributor Registered: 07/26/08 Posts: 424 Loc: San Jose, CA USA	Hi Mike, Thanks for posting your song so we all can learn. It's funny to me that I'm critiquing one of your songs, but I suppose since I am a music fan, and music is written for people to listen to, my opinion has some relevance regardless of my experience level. I learned last week that this forum isn't always about making a song more commercially appealing. It's about making a song 'better.' The logical side of my brain wants to know "better in what way?" A song can really be anything the songwriter wants it to be. So me telling you how to make it 'better' seems nonsensical in many ways, unless I know what your vision is for this song. And unfortunately I don't. So in my following remarks, all I am trying to do is give you my reactions and opinions coming from the perspective that you're trying to appeal to the folks who like style of song. Here goes: I also got a Three Dog Night feel from the intro guitar. Mamma Told Me Not to Come comes to mind. I think it's the effect you're using. The rest of the song reminds me of Bon Jovi and Ronnie James Dio at different times. In that way it dates the song a little in my mind. Dana also mentioned this in her comment that it doesn't sound as current as it could. To me it plays like the 'ballad of the working man.' I can easily see anyone who's stuck in the monotony of a job they never expected to find themselves in, or in a life situation that never thought they'd be in, relating to it. And for the character in the song, the grind is even worse because he understands that his current situation is based on his own decisions, and the reason it's not changing is due to his own lack of action/ambition. In this way it reminds me of Rush's working man song. I don't get the impression that this character is going to be changing his life anytime soon. He's trying to tell himself it's someone/something else's fault, but I think he knows he's the one holding the prison keys. Musically, it's melodically repetitive in a number of areas. Which I think helps underscore the feeling of a monotonous day to day routine. The continuous guitar riff playing prominently throughout the first four lines of the verses almost feels like a clock ticking. However, since you've taken this approach with the music, it doesn't really engage the listener with interesting hooks, instrument solos, or unexpected variation. Once you've heard the first half of the song, there's nothing new except for the lyrics. Nothing wrong with that, just an observation. Lyrically, I have no real issues with nearly the entire song. I think the words portray the character's thoughts in this situation he finds himself in. He's in it, doesn't like it, tries to blame it on someone besides himself half the time, but deep down he knows he's the one who needs to take responsibility. The one line that sticks out to me, however, and doesn't seem to fit is: "I didn't see the signs I drove a hundred miles the other way." I'd expect that line if he were pining about a specific life he wasn't living, as opposed to generally saying that he's not happy and wants something to change. I guess I ask "100 miles the other way from what?" Also, it seems kind of active and intentional, and yet I get the feeling the character is kind of surprised he's where he is. I'd expect something more like "I didn't see signs but when I finally did it was too late." All in all, not really a genre or style of song that I search out and listen to, but obviously the production is very well done, and spending so much time with it has allowed me to appreciate it for what it is. Nice work, and thanks again for posting it. Rob _________________________ Rob's Music is also on SoundClick
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#645163 - 08/23/08 11:00 PM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Rob L]
Kristi McKeever Kristi McKeever Top 100 Poster Registered: 05/02/07 Posts: 3187 Loc: USA	Well, here’s my go at it: The music to this is pretty cool. I like the melody of the chorus and especially the last line which empowers the narrator. In an attempt to offer something constructive, I will throw this out: I feel like the narrator has mixed emotions regarding his power over his life, hence the conflicting views in the last lines of the first two verses: “A victim of the system with the lifeless and mundane.” “Living with a choice we made does not make it right.” In V1 he has no power. In V2 he has power but it’s not the right thing happening. We make decisions, for better or worse, that’s life. I like the idea of decisions and choices playing a part of “the grind” and how he “can’t stand it.” I can certainly relate to the hard decisions we must sometimes make in life and sometimes we choose unwisely. But if you’re a victim, you’re really not invested in the grind of things because you have no power, you’re just going with the flow. The line, “nothing can save me or stop me from sinking” is another one that renders him powerless, but I get the message that he thinks he makes bad decisions. That doesn’t mean he’s powerless though. Maybe he hasn’t been able to save himself, but that’s different from “nothing can” save him. What I’m trying to say, is that I think it'd be stronger if there were no victims here. Just a regular person, trying to survive, the best he can. That is something everyone would enjoy relating to. That’s my two cents…. Kristi _________________________ A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write, if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself. What a man can be, he must be. -- Abraham Maslow, American Psychologist
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#645187 - 08/24/08 01:20 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Kristi McKeever]
Samuel Harris Samuel Harris Top 100 Poster Registered: 03/06/05 Posts: 3618 Loc: Burleson, Texas	Most of us on this forum know Sub and know that he is a very good collaborator and producer. This production is another example of his skill in audio production, arrangement, instrumentation and general musical talent. But here is my sense of how the song is failing to deliver: I think it is trying to say literally what it should be tying to say figuratively. “I keep trying to tell myself that this is just a phase I continue to sell myself on hopes of better days I'm just a prisoner who's shackled and restrained A victim of the system with the lifeless and mundane Under the weight I'm drowning Transparent cage surrounding me Nothing can save or stop me from sinking Sinking low, sinking slow” Sub, I get the point but look how Chicago said kind of the same thing without using words like “mundane”, shackled and restrained. Waiting for the break of day Searching for something to say Flashing lights against the sky Giving up I close my eyes Sitting cross-legged on the floor Staring blindly into space Getting up to splash my face Wanting just to stay awake Wondering how much I can take Should I try to do some more 25 or 6 to 4 I am not saying Chicago is trying to convey the same “message” as you. It is that they would have had a weaker song had they tried to explain their angst or mood as you did. I guess you could say that they just cut to the chase. And besides listeners secretly resent being told "what" or "how" to think about a song. We want to discover that. I guess you could argue that Chicago is talking about a drug trip or not getting enough sleep or something like that but the fact is, when they sing it, I am filling in my own narrative and I may be filling it in with thoughts of being "a prisoner who's shackled and restrained or a victim of the system with the lifeless and mundane". But I don't want to be told that. When I heard the line “I continue to sell myself on hopes of better days” in your song, I almost groaned at the use of the word “continue”. It would have been stronger just to leave it out. Again I refer you to Chicago. They are using figurative language to describe a feeling that could have been described in prosaic language but who would want to listen to that? It is hard for me to describe what is wrong and much easier to describe what is right. Today I was listening to a written work read aloud by the author on National Public Radio. As the writer described his summer vacation with his wife and kid and how some old geezer (who was pretending to be a Holocaust survivor) was ruining his vacation, I was amazed at how skillful the writer was in getting me, the listener, to fill in what he (the writer) was thinking! In between his lines, an entire narrative was being created in my head. I was filling in things that he didn’t “say” but that he had undoubtedly written, re-written, and finalized until he had me "hooked". He succeeded in doing this because he used the “familiar” to make me feel that his conversation could have been my own. That is what I was thinking about when I listened to this song today. I think if you pulled back on the “description” of you mood and instead, looked for inventive provocative imagery to suggest the mood and let your listeners “fill in” the emotions, I would be hooked, because the musical execution is pretty good. _________________________ "Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
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#645197 - 08/24/08 05:14 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
Jean Bullock Jean Bullock Top 10 Poster Registered: 09/18/01 Posts: 10244 Loc: Anaheim, CA, USA	Hi, Mike! I would like to address the lyrics first. Except for a few lines that I think should be deleted for musical reasons, they are perfect as is. They describe very well the feelings of those who are frustrated with their situation and have been for a very long time. I can relate to this. It is exactly how I am personally feeling right now and I couldn't have said it any better. Sometimes we need songs like these. It's like talking to someone who really knows exactly how we feel. There are times when we don't want to hear that things will get better. We just need to express how we feel. Sometimes the negativity in a song like this can actually help us release the feelings that are trapped inside. Once expressed, they can actually make us feel better rather than worse. One of my favorite songs is "Break Stuff." I may not walk around saying the words that are in that song, but I sure feel like it and I feel better after the song. Regarding the melody: I think most of it suits the song very well. I would prefer to hear the pre-chorus reduced to "Under the weight I'm drowning, Transparent cage surrounding me, " and then going directly into the chorus. Can't tell you why, I just do. I also think that the instrumental bit just before the second verse could be deleted. Again, it's just an instinctive thing. The singing was very good and I could understand all of the words. You have a very good voice and it is well suited for this kind of music. Production values: I would like to hear the accompaniment a little lower in volume when the vocals are being sung. The sibilance could use adjusting - it is very pronounced throughout the whole song. The cymbals in places also sounded very tinny. It made me wonder if perhaps the treble was up too high. It could be just me though, because I usually lower the treble and raise the bass a little when I am listening to the music on the radio, so take what I say with a grain of salt. The reverb (I think that is what it's called) is Ok in the beginning but as it continues through the music, it becomes an irritant to me. I think just using it at the beginning and maybe at the end would be OK. So all in all, I really liked the performance, words and music. It is solid lyric writing and composing in my opinion. If I heard it on the radio I would listen to the whole thing. Good luck to you. _________________________ Please visit my facebook EZ3D PopUps for free papercraft templates. Great for beginners of all ages. Favorite Sites: http://facebook.com/EZ3DPopUps http://ez3dpopups.blogspot.com/ http://harrietschock.com http://jpfolks.com http://phillipmartin.com
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#645212 - 08/24/08 06:52 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Jean Bullock]
Kevin Emmrich Kevin Emmrich Top 20 Poster Registered: 02/24/07 Posts: 8628 Loc: Crozet, VA	At first, I thought it was going to be "Mama Told Me Not To Come" (LOL). Musically and Production-wise, I know it is Sub, so what am I going to say there? (except maybe that either I like it or not -- and I do like it). My one question would be: What part of the song do you want the listener to "sing along with"? What would be the actual "hook" that would resonate with the audience. I think the hooks are there, they are just too tough to "sing along with", therefore the song might not be too memorable. Lyrics: The metaphors/images you are using are: a) shackled and restrained; b) drowning; c) Transparent cage; d) sinking; e) the grind; f) ball and chain; g) (street) signs; h) clock is ticking ; i) (in a) hole. Four have to do with being "trapped", Two with drowning, and three (grind, clock and signs) are sort of hanging out there by themselves. I'm wondering if you have gone too many directions with the imagery. I enjoyed the listen, now I'll go read the other entries and await Harriet's review. Kevin _________________________ *"Make Every Line Count"* Kevin at Soundclick and ... more Soundclick skype: Kevin.Emmrich
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#645241 - 08/24/08 09:16 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Kevin Emmrich]
Mark Schuessler Mark Schuessler Serious Contributor Registered: 09/17/07 Posts: 672 Loc: Lockport, NY, USA	Sub: Here's my take: Production: Cool, retro intro. Beautiful sounding production. No weaknesses here. Lyrics: The lyrics are polished and they sing perfectly. I skimmed the other reviews and saw a lot of comments on the lyrics, so I won't say much about them except to say I thought they were good except for the line: "Our desperation changes what we do in life", which I thought wasn't up to the level of the rest of the song. I thought the chorus was too wordy (but I guess this has more to do with the music, see below.) Music: I had two problems with the music and both are easy to fix. 1. The last line in the pre-chorus takes all the wind out of the song for me. I would ditch the last line (sinking low, sinking slow...) and have the third line rise in anticipation for the chorus. 2. For me, the chorus is too wordy and the music is too close to that of the verse. I would change the music up and rewrite the melody of "I can't stop the grind" to make it the central hook of the song. I would also start it a half beat earlier and add some space between the lines: I can't stand the grind I'm just doing time Didn't see the signs I drove a hundred miles the other way I can't stand the grind I'm just doing time Need to get a life before it passes by hope It's not too late That being said, I know you already know all this and there was a reason you went the direction you did so I'm looking forward to hearing your response. Sub, thanks for giving us the chance to critique your song. Mark _________________________ "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not." http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=756982
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#645315 - 08/24/08 12:44 PM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Mark Schuessler]
Heidi Thompson Heidi Thompson Serious Contributor Registered: 04/23/07 Posts: 1867 Loc: NV	Hey Sub, You've gotten an abundance of critiques so I just wanted to say that I feel the song could be wonderful with a few minor shifts. If I had to pick one thing to change, it'd be the pre-chorus. I'd love to see it be shorter and actually lift into the chorus because it slowed down the song momentum. The song holds much more that is right for me than what is wrong. Heidi _________________________ "And, in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make." Paul McCartney
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#645332 - 08/24/08 01:39 PM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Samuel Harris]
Derek Hines Derek Hines Top 100 Poster Registered: 08/14/07 Posts: 4809 Loc: United States Oregon	Hey Samuel Good points and I love Chicago and "25 or 6 to 4?" , but I thought people might be interested in why Chicago was set on that hook and title and what it really mean... This is from Wikipedia and I've heard it from other sites as well. 25 or 6 to 4 meaning It's mostly about the hecticness of thier song writing process (I think Sub and the rest of us can relate $;\)$ ) Derek _________________________ All the worlds a song and all the people Singers http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pageartist.cfm?bandID=740346
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#645339 - 08/24/08 01:54 PM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Jean Bullock]
Derek Hines Derek Hines Top 100 Poster Registered: 08/14/07 Posts: 4809 Loc: United States Oregon	Hi Jean I would have never believed you were a fan of "Break Stuff" until you said it... Yes you got just what I meant with my review, but put it into much better words than I could lol... Ok Sub I change my review... just read Jean's and you'll know exactly how I feel... By the way Jean I also lower the treble and crank the bass in my car lol. Derek Edited by Derek Hines (08/24/08 01:55 PM) _________________________ All the worlds a song and all the people Singers http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pageartist.cfm?bandID=740346
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#645361 - 08/24/08 02:25 PM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Derek Hines]
Scott Campbell Scott Campbell Top 10 Poster Registered: 07/22/05 Posts: 10861 Loc: Lakeland, FL, USA	Man, I got nuthin'. I gave it a good effort but I'm coming up empty for ways to improve it.... I'll have to let this be strictly a learning experience and wait to see what Harriet has to say. $\:\)$ Cool song, Sub - I think most will be able to relate.... OK - went back and read the other reviews - maybe there is something to shortening the pre-chorus. I like the wordiness of the chorus though - shooting those words out like bullets is important to the feel here, in my opinion.... Scott _________________________ Scott's CD "Full Assembly Required" on CD Baby Scott's EP Some Assembly Required - Free download at Prosity Records
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#645382 - 08/24/08 03:24 PM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Scott Campbell]
Beth G. Williams Beth G. Williams Top 100 Poster Registered: 04/24/07 Posts: 6894 Loc: Massachusetts	Hey Mike, I've been trying to get the link to work off and on, with no luck. I'd prefer to hold off commenting on the whole piece until I can hear the music. But if it doesn't work for me, I'll at least speak to the lyrics, okay? Sorry for the delay, and thanks for participating! Cheers, Beth _________________________ http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=949237 http://www.myspace.com/goldencatfish "Fill what's empty, empty what's full, and scratch where it itches."
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#645403 - 08/24/08 04:50 PM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Beth G. Williams]
Brian Austin Whitney Brian Austin Whitney Bard of the Boards Registered: 04/20/01 Posts: 16289 Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA	If folks are having troubles with finding things to improve, you can still point out what works and why it works. That's just as valuable in this process. Remember everyone, imrpoving this song is a by product of this process, not the focus. The idea is, even if you've never critiqued a song in your life, to practice the art of how to critique a song and test yourself to see if you notice the things that can make a song better. So no need to apologize that you may not be good or experienced at this.. that's the entire point. We want to help you get better by practicing and comparing your results with others. You practice songwriting by writing songs, you practive critquing by doing critiques, even in both cases when you don't have experience or aren't very good. Why is it important to be a good critic? Because it will help you self critique and write better songs yourself. So jump in and don't be worried if you're perfect or not or even if you're right or wrong. By doing, you'll get better each time and it will help your writing, sometimes without you even realizing it. You can usually see mistakes that you make much easier when someone else has made them. You can often identify and repeat what really works when you first find it someone else. Brian _________________________ Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#645445 - 08/24/08 06:37 PM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
GJShades GJShades Serious Contributor Registered: 01/29/01 Posts: 387 Loc: USA	Hi Mike, After the first listen, I sat and thought about it for a couple of minutes. And the first thing I realized was that I couldn't remember the main hook in it's entirety. So the standard remedy (esp. in a rock song), as you know, is repetition. Maybe you should find a place in the song where you can repeat the hook 3 or 4 times, uninterrupted. I don't think changing the last line of the 2nd pre-chorus is a good idea. Making that one small change...with the other lines remaining the same...might be a distraction rather than a enhancement. And listening to the last line of the pre-chorus; my mind was expecting the second phrase ("sinking slow") to be musically identical with the first phrase ("sinking low"). When they didn't match, I was mildly disappointed. The thing is...I can't explain why. It's probably just a personal preference thing; a minor unfulfilled expectation. But I thought I'd go ahead and mention it since I'm here. One of the things that came to mind after listening several times was the matching of the music with the lyrical message. I considered the music to be pretty much comtemporary rock. So the question is...Will the demographic age-group most likely to dig the music be able to identify with the message? Maybe something to consider. But that stuff aside, I really enjoyed the song. It rocks! The Intro grabs you and says "Pay attention you don't wanna miss this!"...and the song delivers. I was particularly impressed with the vocal interpretation/delivery...very cool. GJ Edited by GJShades (08/24/08 06:41 PM)
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#645805 - 08/25/08 11:35 PM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: GJShades]
harriet schock harriet schock JPF Mentor Registered: 12/01/01 Posts: 102 Loc: L.A., CA 90036	The Grind 3:30 http://www.substudiomusic.com/TheGrind.mp3 I keep trying to tell myself that this is just a phase I continue to sell myself on hopes of better days I'm just a prisoner who's shackled and restrained A victim of the system with the lifeless and mundane Under the weight I'm drowning Transparent cage surrounding me Nothing can save or stop me from sinking Sinking low, sinking slow I can't stand the grind It's like I'm doing time with a ball and chain I didn't see the signs I drove a hundred miles the other way I can't stand the grind It's like I'm doing time with a ball and chain Need to get a life before it passes by hope It's not too late While I'm thinking clock is ticking out of my control One more bad decision and I'll never leave this hole Our desperation changes what we do in life Living with a choice we made does not make it right Under the weight I'm drowning Transparent cage surrounding me Nothing can save or stop me from sinking Sinking low, thinking go I can't stand the grind It's like I'm doing time with a ball and chain I didn't see the signs I drove a hundred miles the other way I can't stand the grind It's like I'm doing time with a ball and chain Need to get a life before it passes by I need a change of pace I can't stand the grind It's like I'm doing time with a ball and chain I didn't see the signs I drove a hundred miles the other way I can't stand the grind It's like I'm doing time with a ball and chain Need to get a life before it passes by hope It's not too late _________________________ There have been a number of divergent opinions given about the music to this song as well as to the lyrics. Whether the music "sounds current" is of no importance to me. First of all, it doesn't sound "dated" but it does sound a bit retro and I'm sure on purpose. The retro sound would be great for certain films and TV shows. I have a student who fronts a band who does all original seventies type music so they can get away with great melodies, harmonies, rhythms and lyrics and not have to be country. So paying homage to a time when harmony and melody were very important apparently works well in this song because there's tremendous variation between sections, harmonically, melodically and rhythmically. There's so much craft in the putting of the words and music together, that to my mind, that simply screams "commercial." I'm not known for trying to make things "commercial;" I'm much more interested in their being good, emotionally impactful and relatable and authentic. Well, the craft in this song achieves all of what I've just listed much more easily than a song that merely has a strong hook that repeats endlessly or is upbeat or has a happy ending or any of the myriad of other things music industry personnel dream up so they can try to second guess what people want and keep their jobs. They have rules for being "commercial," but when you think about it, "commercial" just means that enough people hear it and like it that it sells. Underneath it all is good old-fashioned craft: how do the words fit the music? Is the melody made up of memorable, rhythmic sequences over harmony that sounds inevitable yet not predictable? Are all the sections different musically? Does it say something authentic that people will relate to? Does it say it in a way that's visual enough for people to remain interested? Does it say it in a way that draws the listener into the experience? Or is it something "written" around a "good idea" that lies there like a lox that no one will care about? This song does so many things right. Sure maybe it's a little obtuse at times-- when he says "thinking go" I interpret it to mean possibly suicide which I don't personally like in the song, but that's just a personal preference, not a criticism. My creative opinion is that it can stay. Unless he simply wants to be clearer and doesn't mean that. I have one nit about the melody, which is mostly very strong. In the pre-chorus, Mike seems to be singing a major third when the chord is minor and I can't figure out what that's happening. It sounds like the singer didn't write it and didn't understand it was minor, but that's impossible, right? That is Mike, I believe. I keep seeing you guys concerned about demographics and what's going to appeal to whom and for what reason, I would like for you all to read an article I wrote, which became a chapter in my book called "If you're doing it for the money, you probably won't make any." It's on my website, but it's a little hard to find, so if you want to read it, you'll have to go here: http://harrietschock.com/author/money.htm. The point of the article/chapter is this: If you're thinking about what will sell while you're writing, you're not communicating, you're not INSIDE the writing process. You're off thinking about something else. The integrity (not the definition meaning moral, but the one meaning undivided completeness) of the piece will be lost. I'm not sure what scenario he was thinking of when he wrote "The Grind," but I can think of one that makes all the lines make sense. Consider that a guy is an artist of some kind and his father thinks he should go to school to become an accountant. Now there's nothing wrong with that. Some of the best musicians I know are also accountants and they're not scrounging for money every month; they're making a good living and doing music too. Someday they'll do only music. But this is not the scenario I am discussing. This person did what his father wanted, became an accountant but is simply working for someone else at that and not simultaneously pursing his art. The fire that feeds his soul is gone and he's trying to run his life by going through the motions. He saw the signs (to his art) but he drove a hundred miles the other way. Now he's a victim of the system (of living from paycheck to paycheck) and he works with people he considers lifeless and the job is mundane. Everything makes sense with a story even remotely like this one. I do think that "Nothing can save me or stop me from sinking" is accurate, although it really bothers me. But as someone wise once said, "Art should not only entertain, it should disturb and inspire." Well this disturbs me, but it also inspires me to think and feel. And there is some comfort in the simple "downness" of a down song...at least to the other people who are going through it and don't feel so alone once they hear it. I generally like a bit of hope or enlightenment, but I think we get the enlightenment when he admits his choices put him there. Speaking of his choices, I'd prefer "Our desperation changes what we do in life/Living with a choice I made does not make it right." First of all, it's "choice" not "choices" so just one person made one choice and that one person is the singer. Secondly, it's a little less preachy that way. In a way, this song could be about being in a bad relationship, as well. Not all the lines apply but anyone in one will relate to enough of them and it will resonate. I keep coming back to the craft in this song. There's internal rhyming--and rhyming at the end of lines and where the musical sequences indicate a rhyme should be. And when I say "rhyming" I mean actual rhymes. Not simply the same vowel sound. The internal rhymes are a bit more relaxed but the ones at the ends are all very good, when not "perfect rhymes." Rhyming has become so lax that sometimes I'll have to ask a writer where the rhymes are in a song. Then he answers "sail" and "take" or "price" and "fly," The vowel being the same seems to be enough for a lot of new writers. I might suggest that writer go listen to Randy Newman's new CD which has all "perfect rhymes," according to one of my more meticulous and brlliant students. I'm not that much of a purist. I'm not a Broadway person. But come on...."sail" and "take"? The point of a rhyme is to create emotional impact at the end of the line and deliver the emotional promise of the music. "The Grind" delivers on that promise by rhyming everywhere it should and by doing it well. I constantly see songs with the same chord changes in the verse and chorus, or pre-chorus and chorus or maybe the same basic rhythm patterns of the melody. The rhythm of the melody is extremely important. This song has all three sections musically different. If you listen to only one thing, listen to that. What a breath of fresh air. I agree with Brian that it would be good for everyone on this wonderful board to say what he or she likes about a song. That's a very good learning experience. It's a muscle that really needs to be built, because if you know what's good in good writing, you can adopt those practices. To develop a lot of rules about what to avoid can cripple a writer. I think the differing opinions expressed here are all worth reading, but I think it would be especially helpful if you all said what particular thing the writer is doing which you like and which you would like to implement in a future song. There's a lot to learn about how to combine words and music in "The Grind," as well as from many other craft points I've mentioned and no doubt, some I've missed. I'm not talking about copying subject matter or musical style. I'm talking about the very thing that separates good writers from great ones and amateurs from professionals. If you can learn from someone who's doing it right, why not? If something isn't your cup of tea, then find something else to learn from. Don't force yourself if you don't like something. We all have different tastes. But something with a lot of craft, if you also like it, is the perfect thing to study. _________________________ Harriet Schock On-line Songwriting Courses/Consultation harrietschock@earthlink.net http://www.harrietschock.com http://www.allmusic.com http://www.cdbaby.com http://www.myspace.com/harrietschock
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#645825 - 08/26/08 02:15 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: harriet schock]
Dayson Dayson Serious Contributor Registered: 08/01/06 Posts: 277 Loc: San Diego California United St...	It is ALWAYS, a pleasure reading and learning from this thread! It is finally good to hear something about what works great in a song. I totally agree with the the points about things being 'Commercial' or not 'Commercial' I knew that would not be a factor when Harriet would critique the song. Where does craft factor in when writing this type of song? I'm not being cynical or anything like that, I just don't have enough experience to tell where. Maybe because this style is not a strong-point for me, it sounds a little dated to me, or not current. But I know that can get in the way of judging the integrity of the song itself. It really is hard looking at a song and trying not to judge it by what you think works in the market and this is a good reminder of that. If the success of a song is successful in getting the feeling and intent across, then this surely is successful in doing that. Saying that, I can't help but want to know what can be improved upon in this? Maybe story-wise/Details of why the singer feels this way? Again with this type of song there is a lot of room for leaving all that out, but I'm still feeling I want to know more. I felt that the second verse was a continuation of the first, so I have the feeling hearing what I have already heard, and feeling like there should be more of a development or something, maybe that's because I am reading the lyrics at the same time, and most people that listen and relate to it won't be? Anyway, this is a great learning tool! Thanks Harriet,so glad you are still with us!!!-Dana
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#645842 - 08/26/08 05:06 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: harriet schock]
Mike Caro Substudio Mike Caro Substudio Top 100 Poster Registered: 04/24/05 Posts: 7782 Loc: NY	I would like to Thank all of you personally but I can't cause I'm not speaking with some of you anymore, so there! BIG LOL $\:\)$ Kidding aside I want to thank Harriet for taking time out to do these reviews. Thank you Harriet! You have always had my respect in so many ways. The way you work and handle this whole process. And boy this art of ours has loads of different aspects and subjectiveness as well as personal tastes and so on. So my compliments to you on being versatile and never throwing everything into one or two piles. Thanks for just "getting It" so to speak $\:\)$ Actually this process was fun and a bit frustrating, waiting that is. It's in my nature to jump in and explain things to help others understand how some things work and share a certain perspective on things. Let me focus my first response towards Harriet's thoughts. Harriet - thanks for all the honesty and kind words about my song. I worked very hard on this as I always do on all my songs. Even though this is by far not my best work overall, I thought it was a very interesting contrast to what is usually posted here. That's why I posted it. I wondered and hoped that you would spot that out and could work with it this week. And guess what you did exactly that. You picked out so many things in here that are "right on the mark" And I know so very few people here listen or work in this particular style/genre of music. Again you impressed me by understanding it and knowing the perfect balance between being sincere in your song along with the craft, work and commercial appeal. Thanks for that! 1- Yes - It is retro on purpose. But it has a combination of old and new styles & production. The first thing that I noticed about the others replies was how far back they had to go to for a comparison. That tells me right there that they aren't familiar with this style of music. I love the Three Dog Night but I wouldn't have to go back to to 1972 to make a comparison. It's a guitar through a leslie organ speaker I know many far more current acts that have done this. $\:\)$ Gang don't tell me you can't name other songs or artists in this sound and vain other than the Three Dog Night? lol 2- With my age and position in life & music (same thing) I gear 80% of my material towards Film & TV. This song was 100% geared to exactly that. So you were right again Harriet. I managed to get 4 songs placed into one movie in 2005. Will start trying again for more real soon hopefully. While feeling this song completely I was also thinking the entire time, of never making it so specific intentionally. I want this to fit many situations so the listener will put there situation to my words.. And besides all that it will fit into 30 second scene scenarios to dozens of movies or shows. Also my material works well in a BAND SITUATION. No doubts about anything about it if I'm 22 and this is my group. I love and deeply respect the more traditional way of writing. But this way is a lot of work also. I hit that goal with this song.. and I hit it on the first verse, but also all over the rest of the song. So When that movie's Scenario/Synopsis is: "This marriage or relationship isn't working out" I keep trying to tell myself that this is just a phase I continue to sell myself on hopes of better days "I'm stuck here at the mill my father worked here, his father worked here, my brothers work here" I keep trying to tell myself that this is just a phase I continue to sell myself on hopes of better days And basically the EVERYDAY grind people face. The traffic, the ferry the train, waking up, the job, the people, the kids, the school.. you name it. I'm not looking to sell you on my story - It's your story you fill in the blanks the details $\:\)$ 3- My lyrics take forever mainly because how they sound, and there flow is SO important to me. In this songs style there's a sense of cool in all the chaos. That's the first thing a rock song needs to be simply "cool" My melody's are always written before the lyrics. I just think musically first. This way they all have to fit and rarely sound awkward or forced. I'm very musical I don't played forced so I won't usually sing forced. But that doesn't mean lyrically I don't terrorize myself (first) and anyone in the room working with me (in a positive way) I even referred to myself as "Osama Been Writing" lol... No that doesn't sound good! How can we get a double play on that line. Two different meanings, that's lame! Too specific! To obscure! lol... Oh and I NEVER want this song to really resolve.. like a scary movie you keep going back to. It lives in the moment good or bad or what have you. If my song was called "Paralyzed" I may not ever mention that I can now or by the end move freely, figuratively or literally. Your stuck in this rut, end of story. But there is some hope, "You realize it" "thinking go" - It was meant as- " I'm gonna drop everything and finally up & leave this whole situation behind!" I quit! I was totally aware of the suicide implication. Besides my beliefs I'm not into that kind of direct message in my songs. Even though there are acts who literally say' "Go kill yourself" & I wanna kill myself" in there songs ALL the time. Being in tune with many genres including Metal & Emo etc.. I know people have always been a bit intrigued by those kinds of lyrics and movies and what have you. Some think it's cool but do not really take it seriously, just like watching "Saw" or other horror or better yet "torture" movies as of late. I'm guilty of leaving it in there knowing all that. I know it's no big risk or bad thing and not my real meaning.. but it's still against my nature. Probably part of the reason I can't catch a break lol.... Shock & controversy sells tickets! lol 4- Harriet - I was a longshoreman on the docks for 17 years. I burned the candle at both ends.. Hard work all day outside in the freezing cold and the melting heat. At night in the studio of NYC playing on session recordings from Michael Jackson to Gloria Estefan to Celion Dion. At the same time my band was signed with Columbia Sony Records (Acid Jazz) then I would come home and write my songs with my best friend and roommate. Totally different types of songs. And we would do it with purest of hearts, also learning how to produce, record and perform on more instruments. I recorded & produced The Grind as well. I was a busy boy, started my first band at age nine. No wonder I have an unknown cause of vertigo for the past 12 years! $\:\)$ Quote by Harriet: Someday they'll do only music. But this is not the scenario I am discussing. This person did what his father wanted, became an accountant but is simply working for someone else at that and not simultaneously pursing his art. The fire that feeds his soul is gone and he's trying to run his life by going through the motions. Everything makes sense with a story even remotely like this one Harriet - My father wanted me too work on the docks my brother works on the docks, my two brother in laws works on the docs, Three of my nephews work on the docks. The DOCKS is where I started writing this song. So in Big part it's not remotely like this, it's exactly like this. $\:\)$ Even though I did work hard to keep my imagery open to others as well. Easily could be a marriage or relationship.. You nailed that (Scary like) with a crystal ball or something lol.. Even though the docks are long over for me, got out before I hit 40 $\:\)$ I was dying there, now I'm struggling harder than ever before in my life. But I NEVER face The Grind! Living with choice we made was actually an alternate draft line. It was actually sung.. "Living with the choice we make it does not make it right" either way the grammer is not the best lol But I like your suggestion of "I made" I was trying to jump out and share the "subject light" that the singer had figured out and say.. hey you! all of us "you don't have to live with the choices you made" 5- There's internal rhyming--and rhyming at the end of lines and where the musical sequences indicate a rhyme should be. And when I say "rhyming" I mean actual rhymes. I love the challenge of internal rhyming and altering phrases ever so slightly. Set the listener up then they think there gonna get a word or rhyme then throw them off a little bit, then sneak in what they kinda of expected lol.. I didn''t explain that quite right but I know you get it. I love actual rhymes and cool sound a likes... subtle like you said. "grind - time - "signs - miles" Sail & Take that was a good one lol... I would have vetoed that in a session to lol... I can't stand the grind It's like I'm doing time with a ball and chain I didn't see the signs I drove a hundred miles the other way "I didn't see the signs I drove a hundred miles the other way" is my favorite line because of the way it can be interpreted. Those signs were "Warnings" The signs are the signs of a "mental breakdown" I didn't realize I was falling into this terrible trap, this mess. I never saw it coming, I kept going further and further in the wrong direction in my life. My goals were this & look at where I went. If I'm driving down the highway, not paying attention but just going through the routine of driving & driving. I missed the signs (not looking) or looking but not seeing) By the time I realized I was going the wrong way I drove a hundred miles In the opposite direction. People have done this literally. lol, Of course I mean it figuratively - I stayed in this job way too long, I never realized what a rut I was in.. I I NEVER SAW IT COMING... I'm starting to figure out that my husband is abusive, I didn't pick up on the signs, and I kept going further into it. With a family of 4 kids. Boy did I go the wrong way! Anyway I have rambled on way too long. There are some points I missed and I'll be back to get to them Also I will try to respond to each and everyone one if I can. And do a breakdown of the songs music & meaning. Thanks Harriet you've shown your professionalism to me as well as your talents yet once again. Thanks Brian & JPF... _________________________ Thanks! Peace Mike Sub Music & Video's & Photo's http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=482602 Demo/Production & Music Services http://www.substudiomusic.com
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#645845 - 08/26/08 05:44 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Dayson]
Mike Caro Substudio Mike Caro Substudio Top 100 Poster Registered: 04/24/05 Posts: 7782 Loc: NY	Hi Dana - Thankyou! & for coming back twice as well... It's cool, if you don't listen to alot of rock bands mainly from 1990 - 2008 this kinda stuff will really seem off center. So you're right not being familar with this style is the trouble many here are having. It's so clear to me just in the way some talk/write and words & examples they use. Anyhow - The story is never meant to progress or conclude. So really it's no hope at the end of the tunnel $\:\)$ But hope only lying in the fact that the person realizes there situation. In turn he or she is making the listener realize they may be in the same kind of situation. We all have it in some way or another. Everyones "Grind" is different The trap, the rut we all fall into. “I didn't see the signs I drove a hundred miles the other way” Is also my favorite line in the song $\:\)$ The singer tells you clearly how he feels, why he feels that way is left out purposely. I left specifics out intentionally, I often do that, and it's actually not easy to do lol... "Desperation" is the key to the second verse, All of my life i have worked and went along in a pretty normal way. I would never think about doing something bad or doing something improper.. And I could NEVER accept why someone would do somethings. Now when i see how people get screwed over from OTHER people.. I can see more clearly Why it happens. "Perspective" - I used to make $25 an hour on my job and at night I'd make $500 playing on recording sessions in an only an hour.. Now I pick through other peoples garbage cans! for stuff to sell. Never would have dreamed that possible... When your desperate you'd be amazed at what you'd do! It has a huge impact on your life. He is taking responsibility but he's saying - Anyones situation may have put them in this position. It's not there fault perhaps, it's there choice now they realized maybe it wasn't the best choice... or they had no choice (have to feed those kids) now they live with it for 10- 20 years. Wake up call, Sticking it out doesn't always make it right! As for explaining the craft and all that goes into all this is hard, you just have to come over and sit in the studio with me. I had some videos up that discuss the writing and other processes. In it it shows me talking about just the metronome. Do you know I put more time & thought into just the tempo of a song than some do in there whole song lol Really! You'll have to ask John Daubert what goes on here, he's been involved. When I'm using the metronome and finding the tempo, I go through each section of the song. To make sure that FEEL is always right. Singing is never too fast or too slow for any section. Then I do it all over again one click up or down.. Who do you know who does that? $\:\)$ People are saying Here's a song I wrote & recorded today" $\:\)$ That never happens to me, I'm not that gifted, I gotta work on it. This is just scratching the surface of all the work that goes in, that work is all part of the craft. Thanks Dana $\:\)$ _________________________ Thanks! Peace Mike Sub Music & Video's & Photo's http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=482602 Demo/Production & Music Services http://www.substudiomusic.com
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#645848 - 08/26/08 06:07 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Ricki E. Bellos]
Mike Caro Substudio Mike Caro Substudio Top 100 Poster Registered: 04/24/05 Posts: 7782 Loc: NY	Ricki - Thanks! You have a very good handle on this. I agree with you and completely appreciate and respect the other way of writing and the "Nashville Thing" I can and do write that way.. But in this case it's clearly not what I was thinking. And it's not given a second thought If I'm 22 and in a band. Then this song is a cut on our CD and many people are singing along with the chorus at our concerts. I too like to be affected by what I hear upbeat or downbeat. And most here never heard of us $\:\)$ Exactly - 100% I want YOU to fill in the blanks. If I tell you I'm a "Welder" all day and I'm sick of it.. you'll understand of course but.... You needed to know that? Why? Do you really care about what I'm literally doing all day or what YOUR doing all day. I don't know what your doing. But I made you think about IT. I'm not trying to make you buy into MY story, it's your story! I love the Three Dog Night and am the one who wrote the thread wishing there were still acts like them in this world. Then us songwriters who write a variety of cool material would once again have a place to pitch songs. "Sinking low, thinking go" - Very simple, I meant... 1- Get up and LEAVE drop everything and make a drastic change. I was aware of the suicide aspect, but that was not the intent. Ya know let the people think "John buried Paul" I write with melody & rythym in mind first. So i will add or subtract words to make for what i feel is the best. In this case I just left out.. "I'm thinking go" Transparent Cage - is my second favorite line in the song $\:\)$ And I was thrilled that it fit my phrasing to the tee.. I wrote this whole song starting on a rythym, I had just done a few songs with a lot of space between words. I wanted to go opposite (busy) and I did. Yes - It's like a scary movie, whatever the ending may be.. you DON"T take the scare out of the movie. You go back to it for that. That's what my songs try to do. I really don't want you to remember the "way out" but just the feeling of being "in" _________________________ Thanks! Peace Mike Sub Music & Video's & Photo's http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=482602 Demo/Production & Music Services http://www.substudiomusic.com
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#645849 - 08/26/08 06:08 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
Dayson Dayson Serious Contributor Registered: 08/01/06 Posts: 277 Loc: San Diego California United St...	Hi Sub:) Thanks for thought process on all this. I'm not that familiar with the genre, so this is good to know! Thanks for clearing up the "retro" sound for us. I don't play an instrument or listen to "retro" songs enough to know that it was intentional. I can appreciate how hard you work in the studio, your passion about your music should be obvious to all who hear it. There are many things I like about your song, in-fact the lines "Sinking low Sinking low" have been playing in my head through-out the day:) I guess because I listen to so many songs that resolve or have more details in them, I tend to look for those things in other songs. I am actually trying to write more songs that are less detailed and more open to the listeners interpretation. What I have noticed lately is a lot of Pop songs are leaning more this way.(maybe they always have)lol I hope I haven't made the impression that songs geared only for the "Market" are worthwhile,that's not my intent. although I do believe people who write commercial songs are just as passionate about their songs and their craft. This is a valuable learning tool! I will keep all this in mind for future critiques.
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#645850 - 08/26/08 06:12 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Amy Bogue]
Mike Caro Substudio Mike Caro Substudio Top 100 Poster Registered: 04/24/05 Posts: 7782 Loc: NY	Hi Amy - Thanks, This is about learning and discovering for all of us. Brian sums it up best in his post. Actually your points are very good and on target to me. The rougher spots and feelings you were getting are the same as I was. I messed around in that pre-chorus a lot. First you have odd accents there all over those 8 beats per line. A lot of rythym play going on in there. It is really more a band thing if you listen to lots of rock bands (some you don't hear on the radio everyday but were big at one time) You will get used to more things like that... The thing about the pre-chorus phrasing is the lines start the same but each end differently, with added words to alter the phrasing as well. I explained the second verse 'desperation' on the reply to Dana If given the chance I would probably still play around with that third line and going into the chorus... There are 4 things I would consider/checkout doing differently with this song and you found one of them $\:\)$ Two actually... I REALLY love the rythym of the verses that's what motivated the whole song. But I would be okay trying to shorten the verse... to something like: I try to tell myself that this is just a phase So I sell myself on hopes of better days But I like what I have better & besides I sing these to others who i trust and they say "no no go back what you had was better or yes I like that better. I often listen to non musicians with stuff like that. I love to sing soulfully and with a groove, what I have does that even more than this. The words "keep & continue" are there for meter. But this would work okay.." keep & continue" are just more aimed at the grind as well. Really Good aspects Amy! Thanks! _________________________ Thanks! Peace Mike Sub Music & Video's & Photo's http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=482602 Demo/Production & Music Services http://www.substudiomusic.com
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#645852 - 08/26/08 06:23 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Dayson]
Mike Caro Substudio Mike Caro Substudio Top 100 Poster Registered: 04/24/05 Posts: 7782 Loc: NY	Originally Posted By: Dayson Hi Sub:) Thanks for thought process on all this. I'm not that familiar with the genre, so this is good to know! Thanks for clearing up the "retro" sound for us. I don't play an instrument or listen to "retro" songs enough to know that it was intentional. I can appreciate how hard you work in the studio, your passion about your music should be obvious to all who hear it. There are many things I like about your song, in-fact the lines "Sinking low Sinking low" have been playing in my head through-out the day:) I guess because I listen to so many songs that resolve or have more details in them, I tend to look for those things in other songs. I am actually trying to write more songs that are less detailed and more open to the listeners interpretation. What I have noticed lately is a lot of Pop songs are leaning more this way.(maybe they always have)lol I hope I haven't made the impression that songs geared only for the "Market" are worthwhile,that's not my intent. although I do believe people who write commercial songs are just as passionate about their songs and their craft. This is a valuable learning tool! I will keep all this in mind for future critiques. Hi Dana You've been terrific $\:\)$ and your very welcome. I'm in a funny place with lots of my material I'm too specific for "Rock & Alternative Bands" cause you would not believe the whacked out lyrics they write. And I'm too vague for Country. I do have some Pop tunes but they are not Britany type songs or other teeny pop artists. They are simple they are catchy as all heck. Some could go to a young artist. But I need a band that needs pop/rocksongs for me to really excel. I find lots of Merit in pop tunes but especially ones not in this decade. "Love Train" by the OJays was a Big Pop tune that explodes off the turntable lol.. I love it! _________________________ Thanks! Peace Mike Sub Music & Video's & Photo's http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=482602 Demo/Production & Music Services http://www.substudiomusic.com
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#645853 - 08/26/08 06:26 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Kathy Bampfield]
Mike Caro Substudio Mike Caro Substudio Top 100 Poster Registered: 04/24/05 Posts: 7782 Loc: NY	Originally Posted By: Kathy Bampfield I like the music to this song and the lyrics compliment it.... this is not a country song so I think the negative emotion is fine...IMO there are 2 themes going on though, one the ball and chain which is a very strong image....the other is the drowning and sinking....again a strong image....IMO I would pick one and go with that thru the lyrics...the picture switchs so abruptly in your head that the continuity stop/starts. Over all I like the feel, lyrics and the power of what it says. Hi Kathy - good to see you! I can understand what your thinking completely. Even though this is called "The Grind" part of me is trying to share more than just that. Drowning and sinking are just the words I used to describe some feelings. In this song they SANG the best. EVERY word I write is based on what sounds the best and what it means. This is why things take me more than twice as long $\:\)$ The ball & chain covers the idea of of being imprisoned. in a job, in a relationship , in parenthood sometimes in a way.(despite love) And drowning and sinking go along with those thoughts as do other words. I like the connection of ball & chain as I also think about it being strapped to your ankle literally... Now if it were where is the LAST place you'd wanna be besides at a Lil Wayne Concert? lol.. In the WATER! $\:\)$ Under the (weight/ball & chain) I'm drowning,sinking. Originally I tried "Waves" but weight worked better. I do leave the ball & chain concept pretty quickly though you're right. I did that purposely as I didn't want that "tired & used" concept to be the main focus of the song. Even though I repeated it plenty... $\:\)$ Did I mention I'm a little insane? $\:\)$ You knew that already! _________________________ Thanks! Peace Mike Sub Music & Video's & Photo's http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=482602 Demo/Production & Music Services http://www.substudiomusic.com
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#645855 - 08/26/08 06:34 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
Dayson Dayson Serious Contributor Registered: 08/01/06 Posts: 277 Loc: San Diego California United St...	Hi Sub, I went back and listened again:) I must say, that I really enjoyed it the second time around! I don't know if that's because I reviewed everything said here or not. lol Re-reading through Harriet's posts about the 'Craft' aspect started sinking in more, so I am getting it! I would love to take a class on the 'Craft' aspect of Songwriting, and understanding how to use it more effectively:) Upon my second listen, everything just seemed to jump out to me even more, for some reason it made more sense... I think that made it more enjoyable. I also noticed how you have 3 sections in the song that are all different,Harriet pointed that out too! She's 100% right, it is SOOO refreshing! I take it, that's part of the 'Craft'? Thanks again Sub, and always to Harriet!
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#645857 - 08/26/08 06:37 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Frank N Furter]
Mike Caro Substudio Mike Caro Substudio Top 100 Poster Registered: 04/24/05 Posts: 7782 Loc: NY	Frank - Thanks! I appreciate all the kind words... I understand what your saying & why. But I can also guess from experience that your not too familiar with these styles of songs. A few actually many here aren't.The examples, and words and names you use the way you talk/write are all clues $\:\)$ Believe it or not when bands have big hits songs the lyrics make absolutely no sense to most people what so ever. I'm not saying that's how you think of this song at all but I'm talking in general here so bare with me $\:\)$ I write very vague but actually work to keep some clarity in my songs. Something that is pretty easily felt and understood & has a universal way about it. So many singer/songwriters and bands do not do that. They self induldge all the way and get you on Sound, style,mood & production. I do the same but put a little more traditional song-writing things in as well. Here is a chorus to a BIG breakthrough hit for the group "The Killers" Well somebody told me  You had a boyfriend  Who looked like a girlfriend  That I had in February of last year  It's not confidential  I've got potential  A rushin', a rushin' around   Pace yourself from me  I said maybe baby please  But I just don't know now  When all I wanna do is try Now this song is making me look like Paul Simon, LOL... Maybe they should polish these up a bit lol... You may have read this song and told these guys "get out of my office" lol Meanwhile they have made more money as "Songwriters" then all of us here combined! "Twice over! Gadzooks! $\:\)$ _________________________ Thanks! Peace Mike Sub Music & Video's & Photo's http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=482602 Demo/Production & Music Services http://www.substudiomusic.com
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#645859 - 08/26/08 06:43 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Dayson]
Mike Caro Substudio Mike Caro Substudio Top 100 Poster Registered: 04/24/05 Posts: 7782 Loc: NY	Originally Posted By: Dayson Hi Sub, I went back and listened again:) I must say, that I really enjoyed it the second time around! I don't know if that's because I reviewed everything said here or not. lol Re-reading through Harriet's posts about the 'Craft' aspect started sinking in more, so I am getting it! I would love to take a class on the 'Craft' aspect of Songwriting, and understanding how to use it more effectively:) Upon my second listen, everything just seemed to jump out to me even more, for some reason it made more sense... I think that made it more enjoyable. I also noticed how you have 3 sections in the song that are all different,Harriet pointed that out too! She's 100% right, it is SOOO refreshing! I take it, that's part of the 'Craft'? Thanks again Sub, and always to Harriet! Cool.... I do write most songs to be catchy on the first listen and all within 40 seconds. But this one was made to be replayed.. It needs to grow on you a little and was geared towards more of an album song type. I threw things in that were a little stranger than usual and different. I'm SO glad your gaining some things from this thread from Harriet and from my song . That makes me very happy. next time I'll post one one that is so opposite from this in every regard your head will spin. Thanks again take care $\:\)$ _________________________ Thanks! Peace Mike Sub Music & Video's & Photo's http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=482602 Demo/Production & Music Services http://www.substudiomusic.com
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#645862 - 08/26/08 06:45 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
Dayson Dayson Serious Contributor Registered: 08/01/06 Posts: 277 Loc: San Diego California United St...	LOL I just heard this song for the first time a few days ago, and I thought to myself, "How the heck did they get by with that" I thought, this is so ridiculous lol But they are an established Band right? So that's how! Same thing with lil waynes lolli pop song:)
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#645869 - 08/26/08 06:57 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Dayson]
Mike Caro Substudio Mike Caro Substudio Top 100 Poster Registered: 04/24/05 Posts: 7782 Loc: NY	Hi Yes- And this is one of the ones that makes sense.. they have stuff way way out there. This one is actually catchy musically It kinda grates on you a little and you find yourself humming it. They have another one that's catchy then it starts getting all too much. Yes they are a famous band, people LOVE them, I saw them performing live and there timing was terrible, overall pitch wasn't much either. Some people go for the - Ya know they can't play in time, stay in tune, solo, or what ever so that makes them "Real" $\:\)$ Bands and Singer/Songwriter Artists get away with musical murder Dana. But I do love a bunch of bands and singer/songwriters. That is sooo funny that you just heard that song LOL... ya see what I mean about lyrics? lol At least I had enough something to question. _________________________ Thanks! Peace Mike Sub Music & Video's & Photo's http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=482602 Demo/Production & Music Services http://www.substudiomusic.com
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#645879 - 08/26/08 08:23 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
harriet schock harriet schock JPF Mentor Registered: 12/01/01 Posts: 102 Loc: L.A., CA 90036	Note to Dana regarding his comment: I am actually trying to write more songs that are less detailed and more open to the listeners interpretation. What I have noticed lately is a lot of Pop songs are leaning more this way.(maybe they always have)lol Be careful you don't get too abstract and vague and less visual. People will often just tune out. Dana said: I do believe people who write commercial songs are just as passionate about their songs and their craft. I'm not anti-commercial at all. I just mean my goal isn't there. The connection between commerciality and craft is that in order to be commercial--that is, please a lot of people--a song has to have craft, in my opinion and "The Grind" has craft for all the reaasons I mentioned in my critique. Just wanted to clarify that. _________________________ Harriet Schock On-line Songwriting Courses/Consultation harrietschock@earthlink.net http://www.harrietschock.com http://www.allmusic.com http://www.cdbaby.com http://www.myspace.com/harrietschock
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#645955 - 08/26/08 02:34 PM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: harriet schock]
Joanne Lurgio Joanne Lurgio Top 100 Poster Registered: 01/07/01 Posts: 3900 Loc: RI, USA	DOGGONITT!!! I'm Late!!! Thought Harriet's post was tonight!! Oh well!! I have read this through a dozen times and listened just as many (with pleasure) I was having a difficult time coming up with thoughts to share, there was so much I enjoyed. Of course .. i read Harriet's critique. Congratulations Mike.. awesome critique .. well deserved for a well crafted song. All the best Joanne _________________________ Joanne's Website myspace CD Baby Soundclick
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#645974 - 08/26/08 03:22 PM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Joanne Lurgio]
Mark Kaufman Mark Kaufman Top 100 Poster Registered: 09/25/07 Posts: 5927 Loc: Minneapolis	Well I completely fell down this week and missed the bus. $\:\($ And on my good friend Mike's song too. So I'll add what I learned here and what I love about Mike's work...ALL of his work. Mike always insists on truly playing instruments...he never relies on a fake drum track...if he uses a drum machine, he PLAYS the drum machine...so there is always a human element to the musicianship. Then he insists on a 110% performance...when he keeps a take, it's the BEST take. He refuses to write about the same-old-same-old--everything he does has a fresh perspective. His production is always impeccable. Finally, he puts what Zappa used to call "some eyebrow" into it--in other words, there is always a little extra personal expression in the way he plays something...just a little extra kick, a little more personality, an unusual twist. This always puts his work over the top for me. Also, he is VERY savvy to what has gone before, and he utilizes bits and pieces of the classic recording artists in his own work and style. If he wants to play an Earth Wind and Fire track, he will BE Earth Wind and Fire... What I learned this time from Harriet: 1) I am not alone in a certain opinion I've been keeping lately: modern "rhymes" suck. Maybe it's Nashville that has popularized the use of "near rhymes", but I just call it lazy, ineffective songwriting. Either rhyme or don't rhyme, but don't pretend that a shared vowel constitutes a rhyme. I know many here disagree about this, but I think someday this period will be viewed as a very lackadaisical era of songwriting. 2) In the short time I've been involved with songwriters on the internet, too many writers are indeed focusing on delivering a product they THINK is being sought. They are trying to come up with clever hooks, accepted formulas, and lyrical gimmicks. What many are forgetting to do is to sit down and follow their own heart, to explore the musical landscape, and to stretch their own artistic ideas. As a result, they pay more attention to "No No No" during the creative process...they self-edit too soon, when they should probably be thinking "Yes Yes Yes"...and so we end up with some very standard and predictable pieces. I think it's more useful to write from the right brain, the part that just creates spontaneously with reckless abandon, and save that judgmental, analytical, editing left brain for the rewrite process... Mike, you've never posted a song that hasn't blown me away, and "The Grind" is yet another example of stellar work. -Mark _________________________ http://www.soundclick.com/MarkKaufman
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#645977 - 08/26/08 03:34 PM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Derek Hines]
Mike Caro Substudio Mike Caro Substudio Top 100 Poster Registered: 04/24/05 Posts: 7782 Loc: NY	Originally Posted By: Derek Hines Hey Mike I think the reason I get this where others are struggling is because you and I are kindred spirits... I may be way off but this is my take on the lyric.. It's not sposed to make perfect sense... it's like you're standing there in the middle of chaos and confusion trying to make sense of it all.. one idea doesn't fully line up with another because you are trying to make sense out of all of it... that's why the mixed metaphors.. what really speaks to me is the fact that the lyric is emotion driven... which means it doesn't have to make sense, because afterall do emotions always make perfect sense? Hardly... One crit I do have is that your prechorus sounds more drawn out than is my style... I can feel you building to the chorus and I know that once you get there it's hard and fast, but it feels like the pre-chorus really drags JMO... The music was top notch in my opinion and fits the song to a tee.. One thing I maybe missed is a little more layering of guitars, but then I'm a guitar freak lol...(did I mention Lynard Skynard is one of my alltime favorite bands? next to the Beatles and Eagles that is $;\)$ ) Back to the lyric... one thing that I think could possibly take this one over the top is giving some examples as to why our singer is so deseperately down... ,but then that would change the song a lot from what it is... and I for one get it and like it as it stands $\:\)$ ....Though I might be biased since you and I think a lot alike $;\)$ All in all a great job I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the matter $\:\)$ Derek Hi Derek Thanks.. yes yes! You are one of few that crosses into this style of music and song-writing. You listen to stuff like this. You and I do think alot alike in many ways musically. How much says Frank & Sam do not listen to "GodSmack" $\:\)$ As a matter of fact no one on this entire thread does, except you & me. Harriet probably doesn't either but she doesn't have to get it. She just knows and she's able to find the heart & soul of something no matter what it comes dressed like. I actually follow certain rules then bend them where I feel they should be bent. I give you format and clarity then I take it away, all in the same song. lol,,, I though about guitar solos of course, I have songs that are one big guitar solo no vocals lol... No matter what I tried a legitimate bridge didn't work in this song, and or i couldn't find one. But I do think a musical break change may have worked nicely I was pretty much alone musically on this in the writing stage. If I had the boys over earlier on it someone might have felt something cool and there would be a solo section or another part. On the pre-chorus I tried every combination of meters, nothing was jiving right, but to hit that 4 strike accent three times. What I do love is the drum fills throughout them. Also On the end "sinking low, sinking slow. Is the only time in the song where the vocal sings right with the chords... Everyone accents the same beat dragged out to set up the firing out beat like lyrics of the chorus... I think one more very heavy guitar would have complimented this song. But I agree that is the weird spot in the tune musically, getting out of such a different feeling pre-chorus. So going back to main chord riff again for 2 measures can seem odd or redundant. When playing the guitar I did love that section for it's "Landing effect" and the cool little pull off riffs/accents you hear in the chords there.... Harriet mentioned the vocal singing a minor. I have to grab the guitar and figure out that second chord again. It plays A major on the first 4 hits of the pre-chorus. Then it goes to a strange chord it was totally intentional, to put that slight strain against the vocal and chord on the second chord. On the word "Weight" I didn't sing this one (could have) Ruben did this vocal. Maybe a note in more chord voicing was off, I was probably real close and left a note in there I shouldn't have. I have been known to do this so it's no surprise $\:\)$ I'm gonna come back with the notes that chord and the singing note then someone who knows theory can tell me what's happening. I do 50 things but never went to school for any of it. One day I'll learn! Thanks D _________________________ Thanks! Peace Mike Sub Music & Video's & Photo's http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=482602 Demo/Production & Music Services http://www.substudiomusic.com
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#645986 - 08/26/08 04:13 PM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Rob L]
Mike Caro Substudio Mike Caro Substudio Top 100 Poster Registered: 04/24/05 Posts: 7782 Loc: NY	Originally Posted By: Rob L Hi Mike, I also got a Three Dog Night feel from the intro guitar. Mamma Told Me Not to Come comes to mind. I think it's the effect you're using. The rest of the song reminds me of Bon Jovi and Ronnie James Dio at different times. In that way it dates the song a little in my mind. Dana also mentioned this in her comment that it doesn't sound as current as it could. me, however, and doesn't seem to fit is: "I didn't see the signs I drove a hundred miles the other way." I'd expect that line if he were pining about a specific life he wasn't living, as opposed to generally saying that he's not happy and wants something to change. I guess I ask "100 miles the other way from what?" Also, it seems kind of active and intentional, and yet I get the feeling the character is kind of surprised he's where he is. I'd expect something more like "I didn't see signs but when I finally did it was too late." All in all, not really a genre or style of song that I search out and listen to, but obviously the production is very well done, and spending so much time with it has allowed me to appreciate it for what it is. Nice work, and thanks again for posting it. Rob Hi Rob - Thanks! I follow your feelings on this tune and I appreciate all the kind comments. And I'm not attacking I just have to make this observation. I have to smile a little cause the one who's not current is (you) lol... $\:\)$ and some others.. Yes the Three Dog Night's (Randy Newmans) "Mamma Told Me Not To Come" opens up with a Wurlitzer organ playing through a leslie speaker or a fast tremolo. I ran a guitar through a leslie, so good ear, but..... Why couldn't anyone think of any songs in the past 5- 10 or 15 years even? 1970 38 years ago? Dio? & Bon Jovi? $\:\)$ I seen Dio way back with Rainbow, where he was best suited. Also was dragged to a Bon Jovi Concert in the 80's Everyone has there own interpretation so they aren't wrong. But those are 2 really bad examples in my opinion. And Dio? my goodness lol... $\:\)$ I'd expect something more like "I didn't see signs but when I finally did it was too late." I went through that lines meanings a few times so I'll try not too repeat myself too much. $\:\)$ I know that may not be your final line, just an idea. But could you imagine how badly that would sing in that spot? Not only that but you lose that cool imagery. "I didn't see signs but when I finally did it was too late Why would you change such a cool line that sings like a bird? And one of the few (I'd ever have lol) that you have never heard in any other song ever... $\:\)$ Anyway as for the dated or current thing this is how this song would be nailed... Mike - You got that sound in the opening which reminds me of the Three Dog Night. Actually it's that classic "Creedence" chord but you altered it a bit. I'm not sure what the effect is but I have heard it before. Actually this band The Zutons used it on some song last year. The song is very band orientated & the vocal sounds like it could be Chris Cornell. Ya know the guy who did the last James Bond movies's theme song. He sings with the band Audio Slave He used to sing with SoundGarden oh yeah by the way didn't Soundgardens popular song "Black Hole Sun" use this same exact sound.. a guitar through a leslie speaker? etc... etc... Reply - Yes! to all. $\:\)$ LOL.... Thanks Rob I'm just playing around with ya you are one of my favorite people here So watch it buddy! BIG LOL.. $\:\)$ _________________________ Thanks! Peace Mike Sub Music & Video's & Photo's http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=482602 Demo/Production & Music Services http://www.substudiomusic.com
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#646076 - 08/26/08 09:01 PM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
Wendy D Wendy D Top 200 Poster Registered: 10/24/07 Posts: 1909 Loc: Atlanta, GA USA	I wanted to comment on this one, but could not seem to think of anything to write about it. I have to admit I couldn't find anything "wrong" with Mike's song, so I didn't post. I tend to focus on the idea of improvement, and so the notion of looking at a song for its craft and examining why it works, was outside my mindset and my notion of what a critique is. I realized that maybe I'm focusing too much on the word "critic" in critique. I think in this sense, the meaning of critique should be "a serious examination of something." Going forward, I'm going to try to apply this idea to my own stuff. Heck, maybe that's a defense mechanism, like saying something is crap, so then you don't feel guilty when you give up on it and don't explore it to its full potential (which is something I do to myself lots, especially when it comes to my own writing). I'm going to try and keep this in mind when looking at my own stuff or posting comments around the forum. Thanks Harriet and Mike for providing me with this inisght. _________________________ http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=796147 You think I'm just another jive folk singer but I'm a master in the art of criminology..Tom Russell
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#646083 - 08/26/08 09:26 PM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Wendy D]
Kristi McKeever Kristi McKeever Top 100 Poster Registered: 05/02/07 Posts: 3187 Loc: USA	I will admit I was a bit baffled to discover (after sitting down and thinking about something constructive to offer), that this song is right on target and needing no improvement. Although I value knowing what is right with a song, and want to learn from that as well, critiquing a song that needs no improvement seems contrary to my idea of what I thought this process was about and so I, too, was looking for ways to improve it, to help make the song the best it can be. And that’s what my critique focused on. _________________________ A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write, if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself. What a man can be, he must be. -- Abraham Maslow, American Psychologist
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#646105 - 08/26/08 10:57 PM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Kristi McKeever]
Frank N Furter Frank N Furter Serious Contributor Registered: 04/14/07 Posts: 185 Loc: USA	Far be it from me, a rank novice, to question. After I was able to listen, my thoughts about the song were changed considerably (as I had noted previously would likely be the case). I still don't see how changing a few of the redundancies, without changing meter or inner rhymes, would be a hindrance, but...apparently so. Thanks for the enlightenment, Mz. Schock. Excellent learning tool.
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#646116 - 08/26/08 11:46 PM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Kristi McKeever]
Samuel Harris Samuel Harris Top 100 Poster Registered: 03/06/05 Posts: 3618 Loc: Burleson, Texas	Originally Posted By: Kristi McKeever I will admit I was a bit baffled to discover (after sitting down and thinking about something constructive to offer), that this song is right on target and needing no improvement. Although I value knowing what is right with a song, and want to learn from that as well, critiquing a song that needs no improvement seems contrary to my idea of what I thought this process was about and so I, too, was looking for ways to improve it, to help make the song the best it can be. And that’s what my critique focused on. I think this song could improve dramatically but apparently I am in the minority in that opinion. The problems I had with it from the first time I heard it to now, are in the lyrics. The music is pretty compelling and I "get" the lyrics. They just seem heavy on words that- dare I say this...seem pretentious. If everyone likes it the way it is, then I guess that is your bag. I can only offer my honest opinion. Sub does great work and I love a lot of his songs, especially his collaborations. If you really love this song, buy it because Sub works hard for the money and I'm sure he would appreciate it. And Kristi, don't feel bad about offering your idea of how the song could be better. No work of art ever appeals to every one and the process of thinking about how to rework a song is constructive- to you if not the original author. I see a lot of "craft" in this particular song but for me ultimately as a whole, the song did not excite me. When a song knocks me out, then I know it, I can feel it. I want to be knocked out, wow-ed. Recently I have felt that way about songs like Carrie Underwood's "Jesus take the Wheel" and "Before he Cheats"; Trace Adkins "Your gonna miss this" and George Strait's "Troubadour". Those are country songs but I love all kinds of music including Blues, Rock and Pop. If the songs are aimed at movie placement and it gets placed- bingo the song is successful! My POV, at least on this forum, is to try to identify what it takes to write song that everyone is talking about and the one that moves and inspires. Sub can do that and I wish him the best in his future projects. _________________________ "Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
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#646117 - 08/27/08 12:02 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
Derek Hines Derek Hines Top 100 Poster Registered: 08/14/07 Posts: 4809 Loc: United States Oregon	Hey Mike I went back and listened to it again after reading your comments.. y know what? I'd keep the pre as it stands.. it grows on you every time you hear it... the chord after the A gives a nice clash hendrix chord sound... it's not exactly a minor chord.. it's sounds like a diminished chord in my head.. which can sound minor.., but I think it give just the right feel if you will a contrast to the intensity of the a chords.. My feel about it is a build and release.. and once you get used to that feeling you start to understand why it's there... There are several point in the song where this happens and it keeps the interest.. so again don't change the pre.. it's grown on me.. Something hit me also on the second listen.. I read the lyrics while going and "I can't stand the grind" is repeated a total of 6 times... and to me it's incredibly catchy... I find myself singing along with that part over and over again... So those who said it isn't hooky enough are somehow not getting it, because to me it's very catchy and it gets stuck in your head if not careful... Now onto the guitars (MY favorite part $\:D$ ) I now know why I was hoping for more guitars... you mentioned it and it rang clear as a bell in my head... where others heard three dog night's "Momma told me not to come" Which in my opinion sounds nothing like this song lol.. I was hearing Black Hole Sun by Sound Garden.. and yes the singing sounds a lot like Chris Cornell.. heck if he didn't write his own stuff.. I'd suggest pitching it to him... by the way...as much as I loved Sound Garden and Audio Slave... My Favorite songs by him were with Temple Of the Dog and his solo stuff... My most Favorite of his was "Sunshower" but I digress... I think the "Black Hole Sun" sound was making me want it to feel heavier and tripper ;however, that said the style doesn't really need to be much heavier.. though if you were thinking of making it sound heavier... I'd turn to Sound Gardens "Outshined" as a form of inspiration.. Yes you are absolutely right Sam and Frank probably don't listen to Godsmack or Nickelback or System of a down or..Disturbed... in fact they probably don't know who they even are... though surprisingly enough I think Jean might $;\)$ To reference another song that show what goes for popular music I thought I Might dig up an example myself... actually this is pretty good writing in my opinion.. but I'll let others be the judge NICKELBACK LYRICS "How You Remind Me" Never made it as a wise man I couldn't cut it as a poor man stealing Tired of living like a blind man I'm sick of sight without a sense of feeling And this is how you remind me This is how you remind me Of what I really am This is how you remind me Of what I really am It's not like you to say sorry I was waiting on a different story This time I'm mistaken for handing you a heart worth breaking and I've been wrong, i've been down, been to the bottom of every bottle these five words in my head scream "are we having fun yet?" yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no it's not like you didn't know that I said I love you and I swear I still do And it must have been so bad Cause living with me must have damn near killed you And this is how, you remind me Of what I really am This is how, you remind me Of what I really am It's not like you to say sorry I was waiting on a different story This time I'm mistaken for handing you a heart worth breaking and I've been wrong, i've been down, been to the bottom of every bottle these five words in my head scream "are we having fun yet?" yet, yet, yet, no, no yet, yet, yet, no, no yet, yet, yet, no, no yet, yet, yet, no, no Never made it as a wise man I couldn't cut it as a poor man stealing And this is how you remind me This is how you remind me This is how you remind me Of what i really am This is how you remind me Of what i really am It's not like you to say sorry I was waiting on a different story This time I'm mistaken for handing you a heart worth breaking and I've been wrong, i've been down, been to the bottom of every bottle these five words in my head scream "are we having fun yet?" yet, yet are we having fun yet [3x] Just me, but does it sound like he might be whining just a little? Well as far as commercial viability and whether the intended audience will "get it" this song sparked this group into Platinum Album sells category... and spilled over several other albums they did... there was a time this song was played about once every 30 mins on the radio.. and they continue to be a hugely popular band... Yet this song is what sparked that? I think you may well have a winner on your hands with "I Can't stand the grind" now all you need is a venue! Derek _________________________ All the worlds a song and all the people Singers http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pageartist.cfm?bandID=740346
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#646118 - 08/27/08 12:21 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
Rob L Rob L Serious Contributor Registered: 07/26/08 Posts: 424 Loc: San Jose, CA USA	Hey Mike - Thanks for taking the time to respond (your keyboard must be smoking!). I hope I didn't offend by offering the bands that popped into my head when listening. Don't read too much into that, as I would imagine that a bunch of other thoughts that would never cross my mind likely come into yours when you think about a band, due to your knowledge/background. Me? When something in a song simply triggers a memory, that's enough for me to make a connection. Especially when I'm not familiar with the genre. Retrospectively I probably tossed those names out too freely without a ton of musical knowledge to back it up. Although I was a big Rainbow fan back in the day... I've not heard one of their songs for 25 years... and the last (and only) time I saw Bon Jovi was... on Ally McBeal. $\:\)$ And although I consider my band/artist knowledge to be relatively wide and varied, there are obviously some gaping holes. $\:\)$ So yeah... I'm the dated one here as proven by your examples. On the lyric line I believe I got your original meaning, but was just trying to suggest something that wasn't quite as "active," but I do see your point about the imagery and the "singability". $\:\)$ Part of that comment was also simply me looking for something to "critique" not realizing that we'd been set up this week. $;\)$ $\:\)$ I appreciate the honest response and reaction. It taught me something, both from a songwriting and critiquing perspective. _________________________ Rob's Music is also on SoundClick
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#646121 - 08/27/08 12:38 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Rob L]
Heidi Thompson Heidi Thompson Serious Contributor Registered: 04/23/07 Posts: 1867 Loc: NV	Hey Sub, Kudos on all the wonderful communication that has developed from your song. What a great example from which to learn. Take care! _________________________ "And, in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make." Paul McCartney
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#646131 - 08/27/08 01:30 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Heidi Thompson]
Dayson Dayson Serious Contributor Registered: 08/01/06 Posts: 277 Loc: San Diego California United St...	HI Harriet, Thanks for clarifying that:) I absolutely understand where you are coming from! You've really helped me understand Songwriting a great deal more! I've personally never seen anyone do what you do and the degree and heart you put into critiquing/understanding songs! I hope you know how much I respect you and your gifts:) You inspire me a great deal,and I wish I could walk up to you and give you a HUGE HUG! lol-Dana
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#646136 - 08/27/08 02:06 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Kristi McKeever]
Mike Caro Substudio Mike Caro Substudio Top 100 Poster Registered: 04/24/05 Posts: 7782 Loc: NY	Originally Posted By: Kristi McKeever Well, here’s my go at it: The music to this is pretty cool. I like the melody of the chorus and especially the last line which empowers the narrator. In an attempt to offer something constructive, I will throw this out: I feel like the narrator has mixed emotions regarding his power over his life, hence the conflicting views in the last lines of the first two verses: “A victim of the system with the lifeless and mundane.” “Living with a choice we made does not make it right.” In V1 he has no power. In V2 he has power but it’s not the right thing happening. We make decisions, for better or worse, that’s life. I like the idea of decisions and choices playing a part of “the grind” and how he “can’t stand it.” I can certainly relate to the hard decisions we must sometimes make in life and sometimes we choose unwisely. But if you’re a victim, you’re really not invested in the grind of things because you have no power, you’re just going with the flow. The line, “nothing can save me or stop me from sinking” is another one that renders him powerless, but I get the message that he thinks he makes bad decisions. That doesn’t mean he’s powerless though. Maybe he hasn’t been able to save himself, but that’s different from “nothing can” save him. What I’m trying to say, is that I think it'd be stronger if there were no victims here. Just a regular person, trying to survive, the best he can. That is something everyone would enjoy relating to. That’s my two cents…. Kristi Hi Kristi Thanks for this & visiting and contributing a few times. Sorry if my replies get shorter & shorter I'm all typed out lol... What was pointed out by Brian and Harriet was very cool, finding the things you like and or mentioning the good points, as you did. But also adding how you felt it could go or be as well. Cause that's what your supposed do (be creative). You seemed to pretty much relate to the whole song. So there's not much to add. This whole song is one big mixed emotion. When someone is freaking out the source usually starts one place and spreads. I used "The Grind" as the main point but I didn't harp on it by saying all the things in my daily grind. I want you to think about yours not mine. I often think about the movie "Falling Down" with Michael Douglas... cool unique movie. The guy just snowballs into all kinds of duress. _________________________ Thanks! Peace Mike Sub Music & Video's & Photo's http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=482602 Demo/Production & Music Services http://www.substudiomusic.com
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#646139 - 08/27/08 03:06 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Samuel Harris]
Mike Caro Substudio Mike Caro Substudio Top 100 Poster Registered: 04/24/05 Posts: 7782 Loc: NY	Originally Posted By: Samuel (joe) Harris I think this song could improve dramatically but apparently I am in the minority in that opinion. The problems I had with it from the first time I heard it to now, are in the lyrics. The music is pretty compelling and I "get" the lyrics. They just seem heavy on words that- dare I say this...seem pretentious. If everyone likes it the way it is, then I guess that is your bag. I can only offer my honest opinion. Sub does great work and I love a lot of his songs, especially his collaborations. If you really love this song, buy it because Sub works hard for the money and I'm sure he would appreciate it. And Kristi, don't feel bad about offering your idea of how the song could be better. No work of art ever appeals to every one and the process of thinking about how to rework a song is constructive- to you if not the original author. I see a lot of "craft" in this particular song but for me ultimately as a whole, the song did not excite me. When a song knocks me out, then I know it, I can feel it. I want to be knocked out, wow-ed. Recently I have felt that way about songs like Carrie Underwood's "Jesus take the Wheel" and "Before he Cheats"; Trace Adkins "Your gonna miss this" and George Strait's "Troubadour". Those are country songs but I love all kinds of music including Blues, Rock and Pop. If the songs are aimed at movie placement and it gets placed- bingo the song is successful! My POV, at least on this forum, is to try to identify what it takes to write song that everyone is talking about and the one that moves and inspires. Sub can do that and I wish him the best in his future projects. Hi Joe - Thanks I know you had two posts.. I appreciate the time you put in on this and all the words of support and encouragement. Thankyou! Okay it's funny with me I'm not a big music fan or someone who plays & makes music alot etc... I am a music FREAK! lol.. and I make it morning noon & night. I can listen to some ones song and tell you so many things about that song, where every bit of it comes from every song it sounds like, what brand instrument there playing and many things about the person musically. I'm like a human jukebox with many styles of music accept Country. I do know many many country hits. But it's not my area of expertise. If I wanted it to be it would be. It's not that hard to figure out. I listen to SO many songs from people on this board, heck I even produce or record some of them. I know where there coming from! A lot of people who aren't really solid or just getting started with an instrument often try to make up for that with lyrics. But lyrics are musical too. And I keep hearing so many force lyrics into music. Any how I felt where your were coming from a long time ago. I like you so anything I say here is accompanied by a warm smile and a pat & rub on the back. $\:\)$ You like & respect me and have always been honest & polite with me. But I know for a fact you never quite "Got Me" lol.. I know of about three or four posts where that was clear as bell to me. So this song not reaching you is no surprise at all. $\:\)$ Also I know our background are 100% completely different in probably every regard $\:\)$ But the thing is I know so many many people who it did reach. The thing is to sometimes look at your own songs and say - Do I have ANY of what's in this song that appeals to people? Or even just parts that I can alter & meld into my own song styles etc.... There's a lot of soul in this tune.. It doesn't have to sound or be like Marvin Gaye to have soul. And if I wanted to display that kind of obvious soul I would. But someone who feels R&B & Soul would pick up on that in this. Ah again not like "hey I listen to Sam Cooke & Otis Redding and etc.. so I know what it's all about etc... What about a young person who's never heard those guys. But starts there experience from Hip Hop & Rap? Besides I am a classic R&B Soul freak as well. Are they gonna swing and sway to some blues tunes with (nice lyrics) we worked out in a day. Or something with an edge? And has cross references and similarities musically & lyrically to many other things they have heard. There gonna pick up on this songs groove and then the pattern of the singing. See? I'm actually being more universal and crossing over than you'd think. Do you know I could remix this into a slamming dance track if I wanted. It's dressed up as Rock song but touches a few places. I know you can't please everyone, but if I do aim my songs slightly, I aim them torwards the young. I do want to sell my music so to speak. And I don't mean the Hanna Montanna young. I mean kids who will still actually listen to a whole album for the rest of there lives. Know every song inside out like I do. $\:\)$ Thanks I have to write a song breakdown post than take a break from typing. I can't sit up too long so this takes me HOURS $\:\)$ _________________________ Thanks! Peace Mike Sub Music & Video's & Photo's http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=482602 Demo/Production & Music Services http://www.substudiomusic.com
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#646143 - 08/27/08 03:55 AM Re: Week 37 MP3/Lyric Pick: "The Grind" [Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
Mike Caro Substudio Mike Caro Substudio Top 100 Poster Registered: 04/24/05 Posts: 7782 Loc: NY	Here is my final "Breakdown Of The Song" musically & lyrically. "The Grind" Intro - First Verse I keep trying to tell myself that this is just a phase I continue to sell myself on hopes of better days I'm just a prisoner who's shackled and restrained A victim of the system with the lifeless and mundane Musically: The intro - Always loved that "Creedence Chord Opening" so i stole it.. That E 7 Altering it with leslie on the guitar and dropping that one note and altering the pattern keeps it from being"that "Creedence Song" lol.. But the vocal is totally different that what you might expect. So you lose that connection fast. I never steal intentionally lol... I wish I could say "No I never heard that song so it just came to me out of thin air" Nonsense - I know every damn song there is. I freaked an elderly man out in a store the other day, By singing right through an entire Al Jolson song, A singer popular 35 years before I was born, I could of sang through the whole album if he would of asked me lol... Musically I'm drawn to this because of the rythym & meter it's rock but it is soulful. When I write I'll often use a head voice (someone else's voice) to help me keep things smooth, to creative, move forward and be somewhat recognizable to me. In this songs case What someone should have said was "Mike did you listen to alot of Soundgarden, STP, ALice In Chains, Chris Cornell, Audio Slave etc... etc... around the time you did this? I can hear any of them doing this song. And there influence (if any) both musically and lyrically are present. Answer- Yes you know it. Good ear! Lyrically - I love playing around with words and lines. My pattern is one that I do not often see around the forum. Double Rhyme lines. Or more properly "internal rhyming". The meaning of the first verse is crystal clear to me. The person understands he's in a bad situation. He is definitely a prisoner of some circumstance. He can't take much more of this routine and he knows HES NOT ALONE Pre-chorus: Under the weight I'm drowning Transparent cage surrounding me Nothing can save or stop me from sinking Sinking low, sinking slow Musically - Complete change of accents, Rock! The various drum fills, that second chord pulling on you. I just rapped out a bunch of busier lines in beat but now I want to spread out the vocal with short melodies and longer held notes. Also the end of the pre-chorus is the only time The melody follows the chords exactly. I need a landing out of that heavy change, I tried to fly right into the chorus but couldn't get it to go. I liked Jean's suggestions alot. if she were here that day, or in my make believe band $\:\)$ I would have kept trying. Lyrically - 4 rhymes in 2 short lines. 4 out of seven words. I love the sound of "me" added to the second line it makes surrounding sound so unforced and fits the concept line perfectly. Here comes the wake up scare.. Transparent cage is pretty clear to anyone. Your cage may not be visible like Ricki said. And you now feel hopeless drowning sinking in it slowly over time. I can't stand the grind It's like I'm doing time with a ball and chain I didn't see the signs I drove a hundred miles the other way I can't stand the grind It's like I'm doing time with a ball and chain Need to get a life before it passes by hope It's not too late The chorus explains itself.. And I have explained the "Signs Hundred Miles" line. here is a whole new pattern of melody in the chorus that attacks to me. 5 rhymes - inside 2 lines. And 12 inside a six line chorus. While I'm thinking clock is ticking out of my control One more bad decision and I'll never leave this hole Our desperation changes what we do in life Living with a choice we made does not make it right I liked the way that sang, thinking & ticking feel like candy in my mouth. And "desperation - changes" those sound a likes felt like butter to sing. I'm changing the patterns slightly and using sound a likes very close together. If you noticed I dropped/muted the snare drum out of the first half of the second verse. This felt very cool to me as i I didn't want to add yet another sound but needed something to happen differently in the second verse. TAKING AWAY! is like adding. Now you hear that the Bass guitar has been locked in with that kick the whole way. As Mark mentioned I will use keyboard drums sometimes but i do play them live with al my fingers to the track. The verses here are exactly that. I bring the snare back in smack! Then to the pre-chorus the drums switch to live drums all the way out. Never leave this hole could just as easily be never leave this "whole" And that lyric is actually "living with the choice we make it does not make it right" Next time down the road I'll submit another song completely different in every single regard. I write songs the way I listen to them far left to far right and everything in between. Thanks all so much... If I didn't respond personally to each of you, I'll still try or I'll catch you later. It's hard to sit up this long $\:\)$ I'm trying. _________________________ Thanks! Peace Mike Sub Music & Video's & Photo's http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=482602 Demo/Production & Music Services http://www.substudiomusic.com
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