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#560514 - 11/19/07 02:01 PM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: Mark Kaufman]
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Hummingbird
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 2401
Loc: Victoria, B.C. Canada
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These people know instinctively how to protect their voice and how to achieve things without straining or vocal damage. ...Or Not. But they sound great anyway. (I'm thinking about Janis...pretty sure she wouldn't be able to speak anymore had she survived this long. But I sure loved that voice.)
It's well known that Janis was abusing her voice (drugs didn't help) and that she'd lost some of her range before her unfortunate death.
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#560736 - 11/20/07 06:17 AM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: Hummingbird]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8076
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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True Vikki some folk do abuse their voice and do not know how to protect it. However a lot instinctively do know how without coaching.
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#560818 - 11/20/07 11:35 AM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Hummingbird
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 2401
Loc: Victoria, B.C. Canada
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True Vikki some folk do abuse their voice and do not know how to protect it. However a lot instinctively do know how without coaching.
I would say 'a few' instinctively know how to 'abuse' their voice without long term damage/without coaching. The vast majority of people don't. And you can't tell which group you are in without an examination of the vocal chords the day after a major gig. Ethically I cannot assume someone who is asking about the right way to "scream" has the ability to protect their voice.
H
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#560825 - 11/20/07 11:47 AM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: Hummingbird]
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Mark Kaufman
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 09/25/07
Posts: 5927
Loc: Minneapolis
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Now I'm intrigued... Vikki, are you aware of vocal coaching that trains people how to "scream" or "abuse" their voice without sustaining damage?
I always figured that those who do so are risking damage one way or another, from Lennon's "Twist and Shout" to Daltrey's "Baba O'Riley". Some just seemed luckier than others, but I would think damage is a very probable side effect, at least eventually.
But I have also heard of Rock Music Vocal Coaches. Any thoughts?
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#560851 - 11/20/07 12:36 PM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: Mark Kaufman]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8076
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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oh Vikki come on. How many vocal coaches rock? I have not met any.
Lyle I have never heard of a rock music vocal coach. I have heard of regular vocal coaches who happen to coach rock singers mostly unsuccesfully.
I have been "abusing" my voice for over forty years on an almost daily basis. I would have thought that any damage done would have been noticeable by now. Just about the only part of my body not to have suffered over the past forty years is my voice box. I have a dodgy stomach, arthritic conditions, a bad back, sciatica, bad joints, my eyesight has gone for close up things, I am going bald and my teeth are going bad. I hope the day never arrives when you are proved right and my voice gives up the ghost.
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#560870 - 11/20/07 01:48 PM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: Mark Kaufman]
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Hummingbird
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 2401
Loc: Victoria, B.C. Canada
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Now I'm intrigued... Vikki, are you aware of vocal coaching that trains people how to "scream" or "abuse" their voice without sustaining damage?
I always figured that those who do so are risking damage one way or another, from Lennon's "Twist and Shout" to Daltrey's "Baba O'Riley". Some just seemed luckier than others, but I would think damage is a very probable side effect, at least eventually.
But I have also heard of Rock Music Vocal Coaches. Any thoughts?
I am aware of vocal coaches who say they can teach you how to "scream" without damaging your voice. I have no personal experience with them. I am dubious, but I tend to be skeptical about things.
All of you need to remember that I am in the business of performing where every nuance of the tonal quality, clarity of the vowel & ability to sing on pitch + good diction, etc., is crucial. I would argue that every performer can be helped to perform better with good coaching, just like every pro golfer can help their game with good coaching. I've been taking lessons for 16 years and I consider it my responsibility to continue to coach, since I work as a coach & and should be working on my own instrument/abilities so I have insights that I can pass on to my students... and also so that I can perform & record decent vocal performances.
V
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#560874 - 11/20/07 01:58 PM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: Hummingbird]
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Mark Kaufman
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 09/25/07
Posts: 5927
Loc: Minneapolis
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Thanks, Vikki. My guess is that the Rock Coaches simply train singers how to move out of their neck and into their diaphragms, helping them to attain the power and force they're looking for without that wimpy, strangled sound that a shy and untrained singer can tend toward. They probably don't recommend shrieking either.
Big Jim, like Roger Daltrey, your voice has not sustained damage. But I tend to believe that those of us who let 'er rip are living lives "at risk" vocally. Nodes are nodes. Some sustain damage and some don't...but damage is definitely possible, it's not a myth.
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#560940 - 11/20/07 05:26 PM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: Mark Kaufman]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8076
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Vikki quote
"All of you need to remember that I am in the business of performing where every nuance of the tonal quality, clarity of the vowel & ability to sing on pitch + good diction, etc., is crucial. I would argue that every performer can be helped to perform better with good coaching, just like every pro golfer can help their game with good coaching. I've been taking lessons for 16 years and I consider it my responsibility to continue to coach, since I work as a coach & and should be working on my own instrument/abilities so I have insights that I can pass on to my students... and also so that I can perform & record decent vocal performances."
The problem is that a pro golfer will not be helped much taking lessons from a football coach. Bad analergy. In reality rock singing is so far removed from the style you and most coaches teach I can see little or no benefits. As I said before the techniques used go against all formal coaching. You have stated this on many occasions talking about straining and abusing. If you take a wild stallion and tame break him in he ceases to be a wild stallion.
I will take my chances singing the way I do. But just to put a spanner in the works I can sing in a traditional style as well. I have to when I do cabaret for the tweenies and wrinklies at holiday camps.
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#560971 - 11/20/07 07:42 PM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Hummingbird
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 2401
Loc: Victoria, B.C. Canada
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Jim, this is a public board and is read by people all over the world, and there is no way I am going to say that abusing your voice doesn't matter, and there is no way I am going to say that having the right knowledgable coach for your genre/style isn't a worthwhile investment. IMO everyone can be helped to sing better, and everyone includes the tonedeaf as well as the accurately pitched professional. I am not saying that everyone *needs* lessons, but I am saying that a good, qualified coach who has trained/sung & performed in the genre of the student can offer some insights on correct usage of the voice & especially offer feedback on recording & performing skills.
To me it is just common sense. I taught myself to play the guitar but when I went and had a few sessions with a respected guitar teacher here, he showed me how my posture was adding tension to my playing and affecting the sound of the guitar. I've been training my voice for 16 years and singing since I was 6 and I *still* get insights into my technical & performing abilities from my coaches, because I don't think I know everything there is to know, and I am open to the journey.
Hummin'bird
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#561080 - 11/21/07 04:56 AM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: Hummingbird]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8076
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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I understand. I know you do a good job. You are truthful and have helped numerous folk over the years. However I Quote again
"All of you need to remember that I am in the business of performing where every nuance of the tonal quality, clarity of the vowel & ability to sing on pitch + good diction, etc., is crucial."
It is not Rock and never will be. So in effect you are teaching how NOT to sing in a rock style. If you do not OR CANNOT change this ethic and the techniques associated with it then Blues or Rock singers will get very little if anything from formal recognised coaching. My argument is simple most folk will benefit from vocal coaching but if you want to sing Rock forget it. Name one Rock singer who sings using any of the above digeridoos from your quote. Name one vocal coach who sings Rock authentically whilst still maintaining clarity of vowels and good diction.
No further witnesses, I rest my case m'laud.
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#561176 - 11/21/07 09:52 AM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Hummingbird
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 2401
Loc: Victoria, B.C. Canada
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Did I ever say that I was a Rock coach? I say straight up in my posts and on my website exactly what I do. My point is, there ARE Rock vocal coaches, who ARE Rock singers, and probably can help aspiring Rock singers with performance & vocal issues; just like there are vocal coaches for R&B & Hip Hop and musical theatre and Pop.
Here are some Rock vocal coaches:
http://www.jameslugo.com/index.shtml (rock)
http://www.stevenmemel.com/index.html (heavy metal, rock, etc)
I just took a master class with Steven in LA and he's amazing.
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#561298 - 11/21/07 03:31 PM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: Hummingbird]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8076
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Hi Vikki finally you may have grasped my point. You are not a rock coach and your techniques do not really work on rock type voices.
I checked out James Lugo listened to a few of his songs not that much impressed in HIS performance. He is a tad weak and lacks warmth and depth. Do not know what he is like as a coach but reckon he must be OK cause at least he knows the rock type styles.
Steven Memel seems to have the CV and track record and lots of experience but I was un able to hear his voice. He claims to have a different unique approach. If you rate him then he must be good.
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#561353 - 11/21/07 07:42 PM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Hummingbird
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 2401
Loc: Victoria, B.C. Canada
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Hi Jim - I'm not sure how we got into discussing whether I personally could coach Rock singers, I'm sure I said nothing of the kind. I did say, and I believe strongly, and I have the evidence to prove it, that anyone, anyone, can be helped to sing if they are willing to do the work. That's my focus as a teacher - I help those who can't sing now, to sing... so they can go out and join choirs or sing their own songs, or whatever it is. I don't teach them to sing classically, I teach them how to find and release the voice within them... so they can go do whatever it is they wish to do. For some performance is the furthest thing from their minds, they just want to overcome the block that stops them from using their voices. Most of my students are shy, introverted people who have never asserted themselves creatively or vocally & they come to me for some encouragement, mentoring & help to remove the barriers. This is a different focus from most voice teachers, but the reason I do it is I was once just like most of my students - unable to sing in front of anyone at all, anytime.
I don't know anything about James, but I have seen Steven at work and he is great.
V
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#561445 - 11/22/07 05:57 AM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: Hummingbird]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8076
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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What you do is great. I do not have a problem with that. I actually do something similar with special needs people. My take is simple and I hope you agree. Rock and Blues etc is sung from the heart with unique feeling and guts. This cannot be taught. Anyone trying to instill discipline and structure spoils the natural feel and nuances. If you tame a wild stallion he ceases to be a wild stallion. I think it was Robert Johnson (very early blues singer) who said you cannot teach the blues you have to experience it.
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#647780 - 08/31/08 11:51 PM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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neoism
Serious Contributor
Registered: 08/25/08
Posts: 122
Loc: India
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wow a lot of discussion over here...!
a lot of imp points have been covered...thanks guys...!
_________________________
I AM NOT A FUGITIVE
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#649289 - 09/05/08 10:36 PM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Letha Allen
Serious Contributor
Registered: 01/01/08
Posts: 1406
Loc: Michigan
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Lol Jim,
I know I am reading this thread way late here, but you almost made me bust a gut lol.
Letha
Just about the only part of my body not to have suffered over the past forty years is my voice box. I have a dodgy stomach, arthritic conditions, a bad back, sciatica, bad joints, my eyesight has gone for close up things, I am going bald and my teeth are going bad. I hope the day never arrives when you are proved right and my voice gives up the ghost. [/quote]
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#649700 - 09/07/08 03:54 AM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: Letha Allen]
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mattbanx
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1384
Loc: Northern Minnesota
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From knowing quite a few alternative rock and metal musicians, I notice how many in an audition emphasize being able to sing a song with a mellow voice.
Stairway To Heaven seemed to be a measure of that.
Which contains both the mellow voice and a bit of the screaming.
I am not out to be in a band or a "performer" now.
But I have found it more taxing to my body having to concentrate on what I am doing too much.
Being in song, something ought to be able to belt out of people naturally.
There is always going to be that pain in the voice box when someone raises it.
I have an unfortunate smoking habit, and I am always used to my throat hurting a bit.
I would not have had a very operatic voice anyway.
People like Mark Knophler got their voice singing in those dingy smoking dives.
I wonder how someone like that has to put ice on their voice?
They probably take care of their voice by not taking care of it.
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#653799 - 09/20/08 01:55 PM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: mattbanx]
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Mark Kaufman
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 09/25/07
Posts: 5927
Loc: Minneapolis
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There's no doubt that a damaged voice can sound really cool. Trouble is, you never know what you're going to get, and once it's damaged, you're stuck with it...
Don't hurt yourself on purpose.
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#654132 - 09/21/08 03:57 PM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: Mark Kaufman]
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Polly Hager
Helping Hand
Registered: 09/21/08
Posts: 2499
Loc: Cincinnati, OH USA
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This is interesting! I'm a newbie, and I tried to read all the posts before responding (but some were really long) so please forgive me if I repeat what someone else said, but, 3 things:
Rock and roll is rock and roll. You really can't teach it! :-D It's something you feel deep in your soul, and if you're lucky enough to be able to express it, well, it's a natural occurrence. My two biggest vocal influences were Ann Wilson from Heart, and Robert Plant from Led Zeppelin. I took lessons on "proper" vocal technique from a classical vocalist, and when I brought her Heart and Zeppelin records, she just shook her head and said, "Well, I'll show you diaphramatic breathing and that's about all I can do. I've never heard of this music and it goes against everything that I teach!" :-D So I learned deep, diaphramatic breathing (which is what I use before I go to belt out "Barracuda") and she also taught me about "head voice", and using the bones in my face and my mouth as a "mini-ampitheater".
Since I was about 10, I wanted to be a female version of Robert Plant (even though he's a female version of himself, LOL) and I've been "screaming" Zep tunes ever since. Warm up, warm up, and then, warm up! Don't EVER try this stuff cold, right off the bat. I warm up for at least 45 minutes before I even attempt any rock stuff, sometimes longer.
You can sustain considerable damage, even get nodes on your chords, but they can be removed and you can resume your career. I mean, you don't really want to go there, but if it happens, there's surgery.
I love cigarettes like no other, but I don't smoke. It lessens my ability for deep breathing. I'll smoke an ultra light cig when I'm drinking now and then, but normally I don't smoke. I find that brisk walking 2 miles every day helps my breathing too.
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#654577 - 09/23/08 07:51 AM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: Polly Hager]
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mattbanx
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1384
Loc: Northern Minnesota
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I have gone from a 2 pack a day smoker to under a pack a day.
I can definately live without the gruffer quality.
It would be more of a test of my vocals without all that damage anyway.
You must also like Heart, Polly.
Ann Wilson kind of sounds like a female Robert Plant.
I would think smoking would hurt in that projection.
I don't know if either Robert Plant or Ann Wilson smoke cigarettes (outside of the wacky kind).
I know I can hold my voice longer since I cut down.
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#654785 - 09/23/08 11:12 PM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: mattbanx]
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Polly Hager
Helping Hand
Registered: 09/21/08
Posts: 2499
Loc: Cincinnati, OH USA
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Robert Plant was one of Ann Wilson's idols! I saw her in concert about 9 years ago, and she WAILED some Zep tunes...one I'd never heard on an album cut, "Black Dog", she simply nailed to the wall. I nearly pissed my pants! She got to hang out with Robert Plant twice, that I know of, and it was a dream come true for her, from what her publicist said. I don't believe she smokes and from what I've read, she takes good care of her voice. She drinks warm apple juice before concerts and recording sessions, etc. I drink a shot of warm bourbon before practice...hey it's WARM anyway! Clears out the gunk.
Robert Plant smoked Marlboro's for like, a gazillion years. Maybe he still does. On his collaboration with Alison Krauss ("Raising Sand") he sounds absolutely amazing. Go figure! You don't hear him scream out Zep tunes anymore though, but that's forgivable. He's still a "golden god" to me.
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