|
|
#574205 - 01/09/08 10:47 PM
Re: Bringing dynamics back to music
[Re: Jody Whitesides]
|
Patrick Bryant
Serious Contributor
Registered: 04/21/01
Posts: 927
Loc: Glendale, CA, USA
|
The other day I dug out an old CD from 1985 (Brothers in Arms by Dire Straits) and the average level of all the cuts is much softer than anything recent. But there's more room for the peaks to go, and they do. When I turned the first cut (So Far Away) to a good listening level, that snare just went through me on every off beat. So cool to be reminded of a time when music fans loved that visceral impact. *sigh*
I wish CD changers and iPod-type devices would come out with a function to scan the levels of every song and adjust the playback level to compensate. That'd help I think.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#574308 - 01/10/08 08:33 AM
Re: Bringing dynamics back to music
[Re: Patrick Bryant]
|
BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8076
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
|
Hi Pat I have an old Stones album. On the sleeve it says "made loud to be played loud" Guess what IT ISN'T.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#574382 - 01/10/08 11:37 AM
Re: Bringing dynamics back to music
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
|
pelliott
Casual Observer
Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 22
Loc: NJ
|
Patrick, Here's some hope I guess.
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=61655
itunes- Soundcheck seems to be trying to do it.
_________________________
Paul Elliott
Head Mastering Engineer
The Soundlab @ Disc Makers
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#574401 - 01/10/08 12:42 PM
Re: Bringing dynamics back to music
[Re: Jody Whitesides]
|
Jody Whitesides
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 12/03/01
Posts: 3346
Loc: Burbank, CA, USA
|
I figured it would be smart to repost it on this page since it was replied to.
Thought I revive this little thread. This morning a fan sent me a link to a Rolling Stone article and proceeded to grill me. Here's the link: http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/17777619/the_death_of_high_fidelity/printThere are a lot of additional links in that article that explain everything as well. When I told him I was going to do different mixes for different mediums and that I wasn't going to mix the CD the same way as the MP3s/Digital sales stuff it made him happy. He's an audiophile and is bummed about the way music gets pumped like this. He specifically goes out of his way not to listen to radio and artists that pump stuff up too much. In other news related to digital sales. Apparently Apple is working with movie studios where a studio would release a DVD with additional movie files meant for the iPod/iTunes right on the DVD. Meaning you won't have to rip it for the iPod. From what I understand it would mean that it would tie into your iTunes account and watermark it to you somehow. I think that's a pretty darn cool idea. One would hope they would do something like this for music as well. I know for sure that I would gladly put MP3's on the CD if they could be watermarked to the buyer. Which is a similar concept to a new thing I'm working on with a website I'm developing. Watermarking the file to the buyer, but no DRM. Thus they can use it freely, but they wouldn't want to share it freely. Thoughts?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#574413 - 01/10/08 01:47 PM
Re: Bringing dynamics back to music
[Re: Jody Whitesides]
|
BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8076
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
|
Hi Jody it is a good idea to revive and revisit interesting old threads after a few months. I just hope that "the Morality thread that just wont die" if it eventually dies will never be resurrected.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#595761 - 03/12/08 08:21 PM
Re: Bringing dynamics back to music
[Re: Jody Whitesides]
|
evbro
Casual Observer
Registered: 03/12/08
Posts: 6
|
I COMPLETELY AGREE. Dynamics are a lost art these days, and too many songs become boring so quickly because of their over-compressed, loudly-mastered recording. Ear fatigue can't help but set in.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#595909 - 03/13/08 08:04 AM
Re: Bringing dynamics back to music
[Re: evbro]
|
Richard Maclemale
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/25/06
Posts: 612
Loc: New Port Richey, FL, USA
|
It's funny how attitudes change over the years. Back when Donald Fagen's "The Nightfly" came out, people were stunned at how great the drums sounded. No one knew they were really essentially samples. Now when I listen to it, it SOUNDS like drum samples. But the CD still sounds very very good... and it's way softer than anything I've bought in the past ten years.
I'm recording CD #3 and I'm trying to do everything I can to make it sound real. Including not hyping the volumes. I'm actually thinking of including an explanation, in layman's terms, as to why it's "softer" than other CD's...
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#595944 - 03/13/08 10:21 AM
Re: Bringing dynamics back to music
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
|
Jack Swain
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 1545
Loc: Berwyn, IL, US
|
Hi Pat I have an old Stones album. On the sleeve it says "made loud to be played loud" Guess what IT ISN'T.
That may be true by today's standards, but in its era it was recorded loudly, that is to say the amps were cranked up fairly loudly to get their natural crunch and for its time it was a reasonably loud recording. However, I think what the Stones wanted was for kids to turn it up loudly so that it would piss off their parents.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#595976 - 03/13/08 11:27 AM
Re: Bringing dynamics back to music
[Re: Richard Maclemale]
|
Patrick Bryant
Serious Contributor
Registered: 04/21/01
Posts: 927
Loc: Glendale, CA, USA
|
It's funny how attitudes change over the years. Back when Donald Fagen's "The Nightfly" came out, people were stunned at how great the drums sounded. No one knew they were really essentially samples. Now when I listen to it, it SOUNDS like drum samples. But the CD still sounds very very good... and it's way softer than anything I've bought in the past ten years...
I've started transfering my favorite vinyl LPs to digital (don't tell the RIAA  )
I have The Nightfly on black vinyl and it sounds great even after the transfer and subsequent burning to CD.
I have to turn my car CD player up higher but I don't care.
Yep, at least the snare on that album is a sample (Roger Nichols' "Wendel" sampler that he designed back in the 80s) which facilitates Donald Fagen's perfectionism toward musical timing.
I suspect the early CDs made between 1983 and 1990 are even more dynamic than the old vinyl. It's not the CD medium that lets us down, it's modern production techniques.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#596013 - 03/13/08 01:57 PM
Re: Bringing dynamics back to music
[Re: Patrick Bryant]
|
Jody Whitesides
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 12/03/01
Posts: 3346
Loc: Burbank, CA, USA
|
The CD as a medium is a very capable medium for dynamics. It very much is modern production techniques that have led to less dynamics.
I've recently undertaken the sound sculpting of my studio. Adding appropriate bass traps and "fixing" the sound in the studio. What a massive difference! I'm happy I haven't released Hero Unexpected. I can go through and re-mix it again and fix a few things that I still wasn't happy about with the mix.
As I mentioned before, I'll do multiple mixes for releases from now on. A CD version for dynamics, and a Digital Download version for loud. That way I can get the best of both worlds.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#596071 - 03/13/08 04:31 PM
Re: Bringing dynamics back to music
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
|
Patrick Bryant
Serious Contributor
Registered: 04/21/01
Posts: 927
Loc: Glendale, CA, USA
|
Hi Pat I have an old Stones album. On the sleeve it says "made loud to be played loud" Guess what IT ISN'T.
Well... you're not playing it loud then, are you?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#596255 - 03/14/08 02:45 AM
Re: Bringing dynamics back to music
[Re: Patrick Bryant]
|
mattbanx
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1384
Loc: Northern Minnesota
|
I recall a Rolling Stone Magazine interview with Donald Fagan a few months ago to where he was talking about the pitfalls of recording software. How these progerams are used to make something sound too big and perfect.
The openess, tonalitiy, and all the intracasies in a recording are not there.
There is somewhat of a colder sound then on vinyl or cassette.
An acoustic in the old analog recordings does'nt ring out as much. On cd it sounds more clangy and cold.
I recall record company people in their business suits going to used stores and to record collectors because they lost the master recordings to a lot of those old acts.
Some things are just going to be gone with the sound from the original.
And once it is gone, it is gone forever.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#596266 - 03/14/08 03:59 AM
Re: Bringing dynamics back to music
[Re: mattbanx]
|
mattbanx
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1384
Loc: Northern Minnesota
|
"The other day I dug out an old CD from 1985 (Brothers in Arms by Dire Straits) and the average level of all the cuts is much softer than anything recent. But there's more room for the peaks to go, and they do. When I turned the first cut (So Far Away) to a good listening level, that snare just went through me on every off beat. So cool to be reminded of a time when music fans loved that visceral impact. *sigh*"
That vibraphone sounding melody toward the end of Why Worry Now sounds more glowing on vinyl. More of a full, compressed feel to those albums. I notice that the most on quiet songs.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#631256 - 07/07/08 03:04 AM
Re: Bringing dynamics back to music
[Re: Jody Whitesides]
|
Jim Offerman
Serious Contributor
Registered: 05/30/08
Posts: 694
Loc: Utrecht, The Netherlands
|
Interesting thread... I don't think it is fair that the mastering engineers are always getting the blame for CDs being too loud and having no dynamics. A lot of dynamics are lost already in the mixing stage, I think.
Looking at my own stuff, I used to use way too much compression on individual tracks in my early mixes (in part because of the limited set of tools offered by the DAW software I used early on). Nowadays, I use compression in the mix very selectively, because it's such a double edged sword. If something needs to be louder in the mix, I mostly rely on gain to get it there. What's interesting is that my newer mixes are both louder and more dynamic.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#640354 - 08/07/08 01:43 PM
Re: Bringing dynamics back to music
[Re: niteshift]
|
Jim Offerman
Serious Contributor
Registered: 05/30/08
Posts: 694
Loc: Utrecht, The Netherlands
|
Yeah, great post. More people who do mixes should read it!
Another thing that might help would be the plugin makers shipping their products with more "here's how you use our compressor in a real mix" presets and less of the "look how punchy we can make your kick sound with this Ubar CompreszzoR 6001 setting!" stuff that you usually get...
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#654375 - 09/22/08 01:49 PM
Re: Bringing dynamics back to music
[Re: Jim Offerman]
|
Jody Whitesides
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 12/03/01
Posts: 3346
Loc: Burbank, CA, USA
|
It's finally started to happen. Fans petitioning for albums to be remixed and remastered. The latest release that is too loud... Death Magnetic by Metallica. Seems even the mastering engineer (who claims the mixes came to him overly loud and squished) is not proud to be associated with this release.
Could this be the straw that broke the camel's back?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#654413 - 09/22/08 04:27 PM
Re: Bringing dynamics back to music
[Re: Jody Whitesides]
|
Jim Offerman
Serious Contributor
Registered: 05/30/08
Posts: 694
Loc: Utrecht, The Netherlands
|
Here's hoping!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#903978 - 06/16/11 04:55 PM
Re: Bringing dynamics back to music
[Re: Jim Offerman]
|
Alek
Serious Contributor
Registered: 10/02/09
Posts: 226
Loc: Ukraine
|
Ok, if there are so many experts in sound issues then tell me
if a sound engineer made his job(mastering) good:
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10491067
as for me he made a sound louder with no distortion
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
Moderator: Brian Austin Whitney, Patrick Bryant, Mike Dunbar, Kevin Emmrich
|
|
We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.
|
|
19784 Members
120 Forums
101401 Topics
942710 Posts
Max Online: 1456 @ 04/10/08 05:00 PM
|
|
|
