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#509680 - 06/04/07 04:31 PM
Hangin' with Harriet
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harriet schock
JPF Mentor
Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 102
Loc: L.A., CA 90036
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Dear forum participants,
Someone suggested that everyone get my book and discuss a chapter or two while I'm gone. I wanted to make it easier on you than having to buy the book, so I've decided to post some chapters that might inspire you guys to talk back and forth about various topics. The first one deals with critiquing, itself. Have you ever been helped by a critique (of your peers or anyone else) or hurt by one? I'm really interested in this and maybe some others of you might be as well. I hope so. I'll be gone most of June but I'll have my computer with me, so even though I can't do the active critique, I'll take a peek whenever I have a minute. I hope you guys have a good time with Sara, Harold and John and I'll be back in July.
Chapter 14 from "Becoming Remarkable" by Harriet Schock
Cookies or Newspapers?
PRODUCERS, TEACHERS, PUBLISHERS AND MANAGERS aren’t the only people giving feedback to songwriters. Every time you collaborate or hear a friend’s song, you are in the position to give your feelings on a song or portions of it. How you do that could be very important to the person listening, to your relationship with him/her in the future, even to his/her future writing.
Have you ever seen a dog trainer working to get a dog to learn something? The dog rolls over and the trainer gives him a dog biscuit or cookie. Have you ever seen a dog owner trying to train his dog by tapping or hitting him on the head with the newspaper? The dog gets some message, but rarely does he get the right one. He may start to lower his head when he passes his owner. But the dog doesn’t remember what he did right, compare it to what he did to incur the rolled up newspaper punishment, and vow to change his behavior. Dogs don’t think in such intricate complexities.
All the dog knows is it’s not safe in there. It reminds me of the Gary Larson cartoon where the dog owner is talking up a storm to his dog, and the dog only hears “blah, blah, blah, Ginger, blah, blah, blah.”
Of course, people are reputed to be smarter than dogs, so if we’re criticized or ridiculed or shamed, we have the intelligence to realize what the newspaper pat means. Or are we? The creative spirit is a delicate thing, if not fragile. I’ve seen it banished with a careless word, not to come out of hiding for years. The best-meaning mentors and friends and collaborators can do more damage than good by what they consider constructive criticism. How the message is delivered is extremely important, especially during the years before a writer has certainty in his/her craft and artistic viewpoint, even style.
Of course, there are those writers who are either successfully or unsuccessfully pulling the wool over lots of people’s eyes, including their own. These people are trying to slide by with not much to say, breaking no new ground, and writing rehashes of everything they’ve ever heard. With writers like this, it’s really tempting to just bust them, if for no other reason than to let them know we’re in on their secret. We know they’re trying to con us, and we know they’re skating on the surface. The only problem with busting them is that what we don’t know is if there’s anything worth plumbing beneath the surface. Nothing makes someone feel more helpless than to feel the rug of mediocrity being pulled out from under him/her to reveal there’s no floor, much less a basement. The chances are he’s been writing that way because he’s afraid to look. You have to invite and inspire him to go there, not force him.
Being a cat person, rather than a dog owner, and knowing that cats are pretty hard to train, I mentioned my dog training analogy to my producer, Nik Venet. He has a theory that training and obedience is only the first level. The truly well trained dogs are not those who simply do tricks or act nice to get a reward or avoid punishment. When you see a dog that has moved to the level with his owner or trainer of trust and mutual obligation, you really have teamwork. I liked this analogy for songwriters. Whomever you’re showing your songs to, or whoever is getting feedback from you on their songs, trust and mutual obligation is the atmosphere you want to establish. As I look back on some of my earlier publishing deals, I see more of a newspaper and cookie analogy. Now, when I write a new song, I trust my publisher will understand what I’m trying to accomplish and give me feedback, if necessary, to help me get there. It won’t be like I’m on an alien planet trying to make contact with someone who speaks another language. And because we’re in business together, I feel an obligation to give him songs on a certain level, and I trust myself to do it.
When I give feedback to students, I try to come from a place of trust and mutual obligation. After all, they’re paying me to tell them the truth, as I see it, in a way that will make them better writers, not make them want to quit writing. And I find the best way to do this is to find what is strong about the song and in their viewpoint and approach, and then point out any place in the song (lyrically, melodically, harmonically or rhythmically) that keeps it from remaining at that highest level. I’m frequently teased by those who take a harsher approach. I’m said to be able to see any cup as half full, even when there’s only a drop of water in it. But to quote Nik Venet, “The mind cannot image a non-occurrence,” so why concentrate on what’s not there? Let’s take a look at what is present and build on it.
Sometimes when people are being criticized, the critic simply is not well-read or well-listened enough to grasp what the writer is going for. A publisher, teacher or collaborator’s musical orientation can frequently render him outside the frame of reference of the person showing him something. And lyrically, there may be an allusion to something he hasn’t read or heard of that the target audience would understand, so if he criticizes it saying “no one would get that,” he reveals more of his own shortcomings than those of the writer.
Publishers have traditionally had the unpopular task of saying to a writer, “You’re ‘out there,’ pal, let’s reel you in.” Ironically, though, it’s the out-thereness that frequently sets a writer above the crowd and makes people stop and listen. I keep a Nik Venet quote on my piano:
“The important thing for a songwriter is not to write songs that songwriters are doing already, a little better or a little worse; but to write those songs that at present are not being written.”
And once you get that song, or the concept for that song, remember to show it to someone with whom you have trust and mutual obligation. And when you hear someone else’s song or song idea, remember to create an environment of safety. Knowing full well that outside our window, there’s a music business jungle, we don’t also need to have snakes and charging rhinos inside our music rooms. Let’s unroll the newspapers and either read them or put them at the bottom of the bird cage.
Edited by harriet schock (06/05/07 02:24 AM)
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#509815 - 06/04/07 09:48 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: harriet schock]
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Heidi Thompson
Serious Contributor
Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 1867
Loc: NV
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Hi Harriet,
So, being one of your newest students, I am very happy to hear that you won't be patting me on the nose with a newspaper! I don't repsond well to invalidation of any kind. I can take constructive criticism as long it makes me better at something. But, if someone criticizes me without giving me any solutions, then I feel a bit hopeless.
I appreciate your viewpoint on how to inspire someone to greater heights and I have been experiencing your uplifting "beside manner" as a mentor while on your course.
Thanks for the great advice on how to critique. You are also a skillful writer with a wonderful command of the English language. I look forward to reading your book.
For discussion purposes, has anyone ever become a better songwriter after having been critiqued by someone else? If so, can you share the story and show how their critique helped you?
Heidi
_________________________
"And, in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make." Paul McCartney
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#509886 - 06/05/07 02:26 AM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Heidi Thompson]
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Moosesong
Serious Contributor
Registered: 12/04/05
Posts: 461
Loc: Vacaville, CA, USA
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Harriet,
Thank you for sharing part of your book with us. I agree the cookie method works better than the rolled up newspaper. I try to mention as many things that I like about a song as I do flaws. A couple of times somehing about lyrics just hit me the wrong way and I have been rude in my critisism. I'll be better in the future.
I have learned a lot from having my lyrics critiqued and a lot from reading critiques of other peoples lyrics.
My first lyric posting had a minor quirk of the singing character dying half way through the song, but still singing the chorus, last verse, and coda. That was quickly pointed out. Picky picky picky ;-)
Other things I have learned from critiques are keeping the viewpoint consistant (first person, or third person, which ever you pick, keep it consistant though out the song), don't drift into phsycobabble, don't try to squeese a 400 page novel into a 3 minute song, don't write lyrics like yoda just to make a rhyme (she thinks you look really good, take her to the dance you should).
Just a few days ago, I learned that the song title should not only be catchy but easily itentifiable as the title to the listner so he can request it (to CD store clerk, or radio station).
Edited by Moosesong (06/05/07 02:29 AM)
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#509937 - 06/05/07 09:30 AM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Moosesong]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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Harriet, this particular post felt like it was aimed right at me- figuratively speaking of course- because I find it hard to be diplomatic about critiques. I just want to treat them like they were my own and be brutally frank. So for this week, I definately will step back a couple of paces and try to apply what you are say in this chapter. I already did an appraisal of this week's Mentor Critique sellection (in my usual fashion) but will go back and really try to "pull out" the positive. The trick for me has always been to stifle the urge to try to find (for the author) the better line when I know that isn't my function as a lyric evaluator.
_________________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
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#509944 - 06/05/07 10:25 AM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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Kevin Emmrich
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 8628
Loc: Crozet, VA
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I think every time I go to critique some one's song in the MP3 forum, I need go back and re-read Harriet's post here first. I am a firm believer that constructive criticism is important, but I think it is very useful to find ONE good thing about any tune and mention that first.
If I can't find at least ONE good thing to say, I'll pass on a critique. This is hard though. As an engineer by education and a programmer by profession, I have been trained to deal with problems. Sure, I work on solutions, but problems rule the day. Although I don't consider myself a negative person, it sometimes is much easier to point out what's wrong, then find what is right.
Kevin
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#509952 - 06/05/07 11:21 AM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8076
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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I tell it like it is or I should say how I see it. I try to be constructive and concentrate on the positives. Sometimes although the truth may hurt it is necessary.
I used to be a sales manager in charge of a team of salesmen selling fitted kitchens. I am also a qualified bowls coach, teaching lawn bowls to people of all abilities from novice to advanced. The one thing I have learned is that everybody is different. Some people just slot in and pick things up quickly. Others need help and gentle coaching and praises. There are some who just need a good telling off and a kick up the backside to get them motivated.
The same can be said of music critiques. Some people need encouragement and praise concentrating on the positives whilst others would prefer a more frank and brutally honest approach.
I disagree with the folk who do not crit if they cannot find anything positive to say, or the opposite, who will try to find something positive that is not there. There are also some people who copy points from other critiques as if it was ther own opinion. If you cannot speak the truth then any comments are doing the writer a disservice. If a writer gets several crits all favourable then it gives false hopes. Because in reality there could be dozens of bad crits that just did not go on the record. As a songwriter I would pay more attention to the negative crits than the positives. "If you do not know a thing is broken how can you fix it." I am confident that I can listen to just a few seconds of a song and tell if it is good bad or indiferent. But if I do a critique I listen to the song, sometimes suffering, all the way through. You owe it to the writer to do that. I like the way Harriet describes putting yourself in the shoes of the writer so you are on the same wavelength as the intended market. I do that all the time.
An excercise I enjoy is critiquing the critiques. I look to see if I agree or disagree and who I think is on the mark or who is way off. I think as Harriet put it you can learn as much about the person doing the critique as you can learn about the song and songwriter.
This board and thread so far has been educational and informative long may it continue. Thanks Harriet.
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#509955 - 06/05/07 11:27 AM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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Kevin, I've never even thought of how some of us may be applying our training to our lyric critiques. I have always considered the arts, including music, as seperate from my job which like yours involves troubleshooting. I am a broadcast television engineer and much of what I do at work is look for what is wrong and try to fix it. Sometimes when the cost to repair is too high, I "junk it". Sometimes I will look at a lyric, even my own, and conclude, "it isn't worth the repair".
But a lyric is not a piece of hardware and Harriet's chapter helps me realize I should treat the creative work of others respectfully, as I would, for instance, treat art or poetry that my child brought home. I wouldn't in a million years tell one of my children that their poem didn't make sense or that their picture didn't really look like a kangaroo- I would praise it and tell them what I liked about it and then I would earnestly ask them to talk about what they were expressing- because I would be truely interested- in short respectful; and if I thought I could say something to help them do better next time, I might show them how to look for new rhymes or explain what "perspective" is. We are all children when it comes to our feelings about our creative products.
I remember listening to Jason Bloom do several live reviews of songs presented to him at our FWSA workshop a few years ago. Some of the songs in my opinion were so "god awful" that I was embarrassed that the writer even presented the songs to him. But Jason cheerfully pulled out what sometimes must have been the only redeeming thing in the song and talked about that first. I thought he was copping out but now I see what he was doing. He was doing the same thing Harriet is talking about. He looked first for the positive and then gently pointed out the areas of weakness without giving offence. He was formost "encouraging". I can't think of a single songwriter who went home that day with any reason to say, "Oh my God, that was awful- I should just quit".
And it only makes sense. If I were getting paid for the reviews I have been giving, I would be broke because nobody just wants to hear what is wrong. They want to hear what is right. The trick for me will be: How do I stay honest and positive at the same time.
Harriet appears to be teaching us more than how to critique a song. She is teaching us how to be constructive and civil citizens of this forum.
_________________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
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#509960 - 06/05/07 11:36 AM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
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Hummingbird
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 2401
Loc: Victoria, B.C. Canada
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I so agree with you Harriet. In the beginning of my critiquing life, I did - as you pointed out in one of your early critiques - think about how I would have written the song and make suggestions based on that. I hope I've managed to detach myself.
The issue that often comes up for me now is if I don't "get" the story or something in the story. I have to wonder if it's just me or if it will be valid to point it out as not accessible. Sometimes I'll read a lyric, not "get" something, go away and come back to see if it's any clearer. If not I may not write a critique of that song... or I'll say "it may be just me, but I don't get the meaning of...".
I very much agree with your point that even the seemingly mediocre writer should be encouraged to keep writing. And I strongly agree that critiques should be given carefully and gently. Especially when they are in writing. As a teacher I think it's extremely important to say what has been done well - even if one has to search to find it, and I think it's even more important to give honest feedback in a positive framework. Note I said honest. I think it IS possible to be honest AND kind, detailed AND encouraging. If one works at it.
Hummin'bird
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#509977 - 06/05/07 12:26 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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Scott Campbell
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 10861
Loc: Lakeland, FL, USA
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And it only makes sense. If I were getting paid for the reviews I have been giving, I would be broke because nobody just wants to hear what is wrong. They want to hear what is right. The trick for me will be: How do I stay honest and positive at the same time.
I respectfully disagree, Joe. While I'm sure *some* don't want to hear what is wrong, I think they are in the minority - certainly in this forum. Thing is though, they want to hear what is *right* too. If a song has good points and bad points and we only point out the bad ones, we are not, in my opinion, giving a complete critique. Of course I may be guilty of thinking everyone feels that way just because I do 
So why cover the good points before the bad? Simply because it makes the person who posted the song more receptive to the criticism. I've seen people receive public reviews of creative work where not a single positive thing was said. Usually, they completely disregarded the critique, arguing that the critiquer just didn't "get" it.
On the other hand, if they were also told what the critiquer liked, they would find it more difficult to disregard the critical parts of the review.....
Scott
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#509990 - 06/05/07 01:03 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Scott Campbell]
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Michelle Anderson
Serious Contributor
Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 71
Loc: Plymouth, MN
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Wow, this really hit home for me.
I posted some lyrics once on another board, and a woman there basically responded by asking if I had any idea how to write a song.
Talk about embarrassed! I never posted there again; I just kind of slunk away.
She didn't comment on the song itself; she just basically dismissed me alltogether as a writer.
Funny how one never forgets something like that.
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#509993 - 06/05/07 01:19 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Scott Campbell]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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That's a valid point Scott. I think it is just sound psychology that someone is going to be more receptive if they think you are trying to be fair; and pointing out the positive is a sign that the reviewer has looked at more that just the "problem". But like I said in my post, it may be part of my training that I tend to be blunt and treat lyrics like a seperate entity as if they weren't what they really are- an extention of the person.
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#509998 - 06/05/07 01:38 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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harriet schock
JPF Mentor
Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 102
Loc: L.A., CA 90036
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I'm so happy you guys are talking about the chapter and the whole area of critiquing. It's so hard to do what I suggest in the chapter, even for me sometimes, when I'm on a panel and the other pro songwriters are each trying to get the other pro to go first in the critiquing after hearing a song, so they can have more time to think of something positive to say. But I have seen people get so much better that if I had told the person only the bad stuff in the beginning, he might have given up. For the most part, my students are already good or they wouldn't be attracted to my type of teaching. But on panels and in seminars when I have to critique songs from people who just walk in the door, it's often a tough job not to break the spirit of a creative person, but it's so very important not to. As Big Jim pointed out, some people need harsher comments just to get through to them. I remember my mentor, whom I mention in the book a lot, the late Nik Venet, one time at a seminar in Austin, Texas, tore up a lyric sheet of the girl who submitted the song--right in front of everyone. I disapproved of it and asked him afterwards how he could do a thing like that. He told me some people just need a gentle word and they feel invalidated. He told me that this girl was so convinced her writing was great, and not in a confident way but in a way that would not let any help in, that he had to do something drastic to get through to her. I am not advocating this nor would I do it, but I realized then that there are major differences in people. So as a policy, I try not to invalidate, because someone who may "seem" confident, may be protecting himself with bravado and could be easily crushed.
P.S. I really am leaving town but not until Thursday.
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#510025 - 06/05/07 02:53 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: harriet schock]
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Kaley Willow
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 10240
Loc: PA
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How very true, Harriet and what a great thread. (great idea, Heidi)
I know I have a lot of growing to do and many times I don't see the whole picture when I comment....only in part. So in part, I offer up what I see. A good idea before someone changes something in his/her song is to take 3 steps back... and always keep that original, along with the suggestions. You may see something years' later and the bells will chime... DING!!!!
I grew up on this board, song-writing wise,...and I'm thankful that I didn't get my toughest comments in those first few months of songwriting. However, a combination of the toughest comments along with the encouragement has helped me the most.
A strong critique from our peers is helpful...but there are definitely some nice ways to deliver it. Finding one thing nice to say right off the top... can make a world of difference especially to a beginning writer or one who really is struggling with growing thicker skin. If the only nice thing someone can say is..a 'sincere'... Welcome, or...It's nice to see you writing...or...That's a difficult subject to write about...It's great to see you tackling it...., that's still better than putting a new writer on the defensive immediately or crushing his spirit. Meeting someone for the first time and having him/her say... "you call yourself a writer?"...or..."find another profession"...can be unsettling regardless of your thicker skin depth.... I think it's helpful to try to keep the negative comments directed to the lyric or melody and try to reserve the "you" word for the positive.
We need someone to thump us on the head....if we have it in there...that "we're there" and we can't improve.
best wishes,
Kaley
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#510034 - 06/05/07 03:23 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: harriet schock]
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Scott Campbell
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 10861
Loc: Lakeland, FL, USA
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Great idea starting this thread, Harriet - so appropriate.
I agree with the points you and Big Jim made about how everyone is different. That complicates the picture
I was active in competition photography for about 10 years and eventually got to know quite a few people (ranging from advanced amateur to professional) who critiqued images. Some of the pros had a monthly meeting where they would get together (only pros present) and critique each others work. It was brutal - it was pretty much understood that no one was to say anything good about the images - only what the problems were...
They were already successful in their field and had plenty of people to pat their backs. This was their reality check. And it kept them sharp.
But now take one of these guys and ask him to critique the work of amateur beginning photographers. And imagine a beginner nervously putting up her first image for public critique - where the reviewer gives his thoughts out loud to a crowded room. You can imagine the result - fairly similar to Shelly's experience .......
So in addition to knowing something about the personality of the person who submitted the work for review, I think it's also helpful to recognize the ability level they are at.
This is not to say I think false praise should be given - only that a beginner probably has different needs than an established artist or writer. I DO believe it is possible to be positive in a review without giving an unrealistic impression of ability level.
In regard to the notion that different personalities need different approaches, I strongly agree. Unfortunately, personalities can be harder to detect on a web forum than in person. This suggests to me that taking an intermediate approach, rather than an extreme one, is the way to go - at least until their personality eventually comes through...
This was all very practical for me in critiquing photos. Unfortunately, it is still theoretical for me in critiquing music. I don't have the experience or confidence level yet. But forums and threads like these are definitely helpful.
Thanks again for the reminder to keep these things in mind....
Scott
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#510097 - 06/05/07 06:45 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Scott Campbell]
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Vondelle
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 1059
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
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Hi Harriet,
This is really nice of you to share. It is very important to critique the song and not the writer.
The very first song critique I ever received was a live professional critique in front of about 30-50 people. I knew I needed work as a songwriter, but....the critiquer shuddered and said, "It's childish! Rain, rain, go away...." I even needed to leave the seminar for a while to go weep. I survived by writing a song, "Rain, rain, go away, I'd like to be a child today." I realize this professional did not know what he was doing. Critiquing is perhaps an artform of itself.
Sometimes the best critiques are questions: What did you mean with this line? Why didn't you... These get the writer to use their own mental power to improve/rewrite without overlaying one person's style or method on another person's creative work.
Vondelle
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#510112 - 06/05/07 07:19 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Vondelle]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8076
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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I wonder if Harriet would be up for critiquing the critiques one week. It would possibly be more interesting and educational to view her assesments and detailed thoughts on the comments rather than the song itself.
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#510234 - 06/06/07 04:26 AM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Teddie Cochran Music
Serious Contributor
Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 374
Loc: Oroville, CA, USA
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I am a DOD Telecommunications Specialist by trade. It covers all aspect of the industry so I can relate to a lot of you. I also run a small business, my music, and in such I have always tried to see the big picture. This is a vital part of managing and teaching others to get the job done in the most effective and bugetable way. I am also a perfectionist so I look hard upon problematic issues and sometimes believe this come across as a no it all or as arrogant when in fact I am not either. But because I spend much of my time solving problems and engineering solutions I may analyze a song to much reading to deeply into the music and lyric. I am learning as I develope marketing stratagies for moving my music forward that the average listener doesn't really care to much what the lyric content is as long as it has a beat they can dance to which make them feel alive and a story line they can relate to. I have written songs that I felt were good and found I got no response at all and they went right over the heads of the average person. Others that I felt stunk people just fell in love with. The critiques I have recieved shows me my weaknesses in some cases in others that I have written over the listeners heads. You'll see professional critiques evaluating your work on marketability and originality saying it is average or below. You can play that same song at GIGs and people can't stop talking about it. So you have a delema... do you write for your audiance or write for the publishers and radio stations. Ideally I think you should write for your audiance. However you can spend thousands of dollars trying to build a band and following never getting a record deal or radio air time. I think critiques can be very much the same way. I some times think that professional critiques are not alway geared to help you get to the next level...Why you ask, simple, we are all competing against each other for that record cut and release. When all else fails I trust in my instincts.
Best Regards,
Teddie Cochran
http://www.teddiecochran-music.com
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#510467 - 06/06/07 07:48 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Teddie Cochran Music]
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harriet schock
JPF Mentor
Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 102
Loc: L.A., CA 90036
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Hi, all,
I think it's time for a new chapter but when I try to paste it, the quotation marks come out weird. This was happening before and I fixed it somehow, but I'm not sure what to do. I may have help on this tonight, but I'm leaving town tonight, so I hope I can get you a new one. Anyone who wants to weigh in on the old one, of course, is welcome. If anyone has had luck pasting from MS Word to this, let me know how to do it. Thanks!
Edited by harriet schock (06/06/07 09:54 PM)
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#510497 - 06/06/07 09:45 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: harriet schock]
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Lynn Orloff
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 5161
Loc: PA of the great USA
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Hi Harriet,
I love the "Hangin' With Harriet". Thank you so much for sharing a very interesting chapter of your book. It is so pertinent to what we do here and I agree philosophically with everything you wrote. Enjoy your vacation and thanks for thinking of us ahead of time and leaving us w/these valuable nuggets to chew on.
Best,
Lynn
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#510502 - 06/06/07 10:03 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: harriet schock]
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Hummingbird
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 2401
Loc: Victoria, B.C. Canada
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Hi, all,
I think it's time for a new chapter but when I try to paste it, the quotation marks come out weird. This was happening before and I fixed it somehow, but I'm not sure what to do. I may have help on this tonight, but I'm leaving town tonight, so I hope I can get you a new one. Anyone who wants to weigh in on the old one, of course, is welcome. If anyone has had luck pasting from MS Word to this, let me know how to do it. Thanks!
Hi Harriet - you might try pasting the text from Word into Wordpad or Notepad, then copying and pasting into your post. That way you get rid of any wierd coding in the Word document.
Hummin'bird
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#510510 - 06/06/07 10:13 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Hummingbird]
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harriet schock
JPF Mentor
Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 102
Loc: L.A., CA 90036
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That's always worked before. I tried that. I'm on the trail of a new solution. Thanks!
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#510539 - 06/07/07 12:28 AM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: harriet schock]
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harriet schock
JPF Mentor
Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 102
Loc: L.A., CA 90036
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8
Reality:
The Training Wheels
DID YOU EVER USE TRAINING WHEELS when you were learning to ride a bicycle? Or did you ever see anyone else use them? The purpose is to keep the bicycle from tipping over. They allow the rider to stay on long enough to perfect some of the skills of riding a bicycle.
Well, I think reality does that for the songwriter. Actually, it does it for any kind of writer. "Write what you know," they tell you in school. And out of school. And "they're" right. Margaret Mitchell only wrote one novel and legend has it, she hid Gone with the Wind in coffee cans all over her house, before she showed it to anyone. But she didn't write an action adventure story or a who-done-it set on a European steamer. She wrote what was familiar to her. She may not have lived every scene, but she knew the people. They were composites of people she knew or was related to, in a time and place she understood.
Songwriters who write from a place of truth have the odds in their favor in many ways. First of all, as my mother used to say, "Tell the truth, and you won't have to rely upon your memory." Reality keeps you from falling off into illogic. Too many of the songs I see from students skip from one thought to another with enough non sequiturs to give you whiplash.
The intention to communicate something real to a real person keeps what you say on track, keeps it flowing logically like a communication you would make. In life, when you're telling someone something that happened or asking that person for something you want, you don't leap from one thought to another or change person or tenses. For that matter, you don't string together cliches and stay on the surface. You say what you mean, interestingly, with pictures and passion. But when a person sits down to write a song, sometimes all of these good habits fall by the wayside. The minute you start "songwriting" instead of communicating, you've blown it. It's like an actor who's "acting." Immediately, the audience is pulled out of the experience of the movie or play and their attention goes on his acting. People should not be conscious that you're writing. And when you're really good at it, they won't be. They'll just be moved. Reality is a way to help you get to that point.
I think of songwriting as a language people speak. When they're just beginning, they can barely speak the language. But after many years, they're fluent. They can pass as a native. So should a person speak on a subject he doesn't know, in a language he doesn't yet speak fluently? How many challenges do we need at one time? And yet day after day, I see people trying to write "save the world" songs—the hardest kind to pull off—when their level of proficiency in the language of songwriting is somewhere around "Where's the bathroom?"
This is another reason why it's such a crucial mistake to chase trends. Based on their desires to get a hit, songwriters sometimes will try to write what someone told them was "happening" rather than what they know about. Of course, there are hundreds of other writers who can write just as well, for whom that subject is real. So the pictures will be real, the logic will be strong and the impact will be superior in their songs. In the trend-chasing songwriter's songs, everything will appear to have been written from the outside at arm's length by someone with very long arms.
Having been a final judge on the "Help Heal L.A." contest, I only heard a small fraction of the entries, but I understand from the preliminary judges that people in Iowa were writing songs about how to solve the problems on the streets of L.A. And of course, on top of their blatant lack of authenticity, they were preaching as well. Strike three.
The final point I'd like to make on the subject of reality in songwriting is, I don't care how popular country music is now. If you really prefer those major seventh chords and cryptic lyrics, please stop writing country songs. Don't you think Nashville can smell your pandering from 2000 miles away? Your style should be based on reality too.
I should acknowledge Nik Venet for some of my viewpoint on this, because when he produced my fourth album, he encouraged me to be who I am, and to write what I know, to be totally truthful as a writer and a performer, as well. I had taken a vacation from artistic integrity and was really enjoying myself writing what I later discovered to be mindless dance music. Now I understand the full meaning of his comment to me when he heard it. "Get real," he said. And so I did.
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#510547 - 06/07/07 01:35 AM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: harriet schock]
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John Hoffman
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 2922
Loc: St. Peters, Mo.
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Harriet,
you are so right. I've got a long ways to go but I find writing is more natural when I stick to people in situations I've known.
John
_________________________
Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword never had an editor.
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#510572 - 06/07/07 05:59 AM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: John Hoffman]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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What George Burns said about "sincerity" in acting is probably true of songwriting as well. "If you can fake that you've got it made." Anyway that is the way I feel about songwriting most of the time. I know it is a craft that can be crafty. I think any good song will be sincere, but not necessarily because the writer was familiar with the subject or wrote about the things she knew the best; but more likely because the writer became familiar with the subject in the writing process and then mined the idea until it yielded the gold of authenticity.
I have always been fascinated with writers like Rogers and Hammerstein. Here are a couple of New Yorkers (I suppose) and the director comes to them and says, "Say fellows, I've got this great play called "Oklahoma" and I know you probably haven't been West of the Mississippi, but I would like you to write the music for it. So they read the script and a few days latter they say, "how about this little number right here where Curly walks through the corn" and they play "Oh what a beautiful Morning". They were never in Oklahoma. They have never been a farmer or a cowman. But they could write about it. Was the song sincere? Yes, it was perfectly sincere because they could not have written such a beautiful song without feeling it.
And that is the distinction I want to make. When we are talking about honesty in songs, I think we are talking about emotional honesty. And for me, if I don't get a little lump in my throat or a little tingle of insight about what I am writing; or if in the writing process I didn't have a sense of discovery or feel a sense of authenticity, then the song will never be convincing to me. Even then, it might be convincing to someone else and that is the wild card in music. Paul of Peter, Paul and Mary hated his little wedding song, "There is love" but it is played and loved every day I am sure.
So I am not in any way disagreeing with anything in the chapter. I just want to point out that familiarity is not requisite for song-writing and that emotional honesty is probably a better gauge of success in determining if a song is connecting to humankind; but there are even exceptions to that because there will always be that mysterious transfer of words and sounds from one heart to another and we are incapable of predicting how another heart will respond.
_________________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
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#510794 - 06/07/07 09:30 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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Heidi Thompson
Serious Contributor
Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 1867
Loc: NV
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Hello Harriet,
I loved your new post on reality. Whenever I hear or read something that rings of truth, it just sinks into my very core. That's what I want to do with my songs...have them impinge deeply into the hearts and minds of those who hear them. The ingredient of finding that common reality which comes from a true place and then hits a true place within a receiver, is a very powerful one.
I have watched you work at getting that out of me in your course. I thank you for that and for all that you do.
Heidi
_________________________
"And, in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make." Paul McCartney
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#510811 - 06/07/07 10:43 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Heidi Thompson]
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Ben Burton
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 6278
Loc: Bessemer,Al US
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Hiya Harriet,
Well, it's back to the drawing board for me, as 92&1/2% of mine comes from whole cloth. I didn't get to live enough. Would it be OK to go foot and start over?
Enjoy and appreciate all your comments.
Ben
_________________________
Field of Dreams
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#510815 - 06/07/07 10:48 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Ben Burton]
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harriet schock
JPF Mentor
Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 102
Loc: L.A., CA 90036
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Thanks for your comments. Sometime, I will post next a chapter called "Truth vs. Fact in Songwriting." Those of you with my book might want to take a look at that. Sam and I agree on many points. I forget sometimes that one chapter will say one thing, and then the rest of the picture is defined by something I say in another one. But continue disussing. I really enjoy it. I hope you do.
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#510818 - 06/07/07 11:17 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: harriet schock]
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Scott Campbell
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 10861
Loc: Lakeland, FL, USA
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The intention to communicate something real to a real person keeps what you say on track, keeps it flowing logically like a communication you would make. In life, when you're telling someone something that happened or asking that person for something you want, you don't leap from one thought to another or change person or tenses. For that matter, you don't string together cliches and stay on the surface. You say what you mean, interestingly, with pictures and passion. But when a person sits down to write a song, sometimes all of these good habits fall by the wayside. The minute you start "songwriting" instead of communicating, you've blown it. It's like an actor who's "acting."
Ha - if I didn't know better I'd think you were looking over my shoulder 
I'm having problems with a lyric and I think you've hit on why...
Looking at my own songs, I'd have to agree with you, Harriet. The stronger ones follow your advice here. The weaker ones depart from it. If I can place myself inside the character in a song, the result is usually convincing to me. If the concept of the song requires the character to think and behave differently than I would, it doesn't ring true........
Got your book in the mail yesterday - read it in one sitting. Couldn't wait to see what the next topic was
Now I have to go through it much slower and absorb it....
Scott
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#510848 - 06/08/07 03:16 AM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Scott Campbell]
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Graham Henderson
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 13618
Loc: Esperance. West Australia
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Charictor painting.
Would the subject say/do think this?
Will a reasonable percentage of the target audience see this as something the subject would do any or all of the above?
Graham
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#510863 - 06/08/07 07:01 AM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Graham Henderson]
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Kaley Willow
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 10240
Loc: PA
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Hi Harriet and thanks very much for this chapter. I've seen
writers defy this train of thought...but I believe I probably
write better on subjects I know.
One of the writers who could conceivably write in any subject and make you believe him...was our very much loved..Dawg, Bobbie Gallup's husband, who passed away ...a few years back. He was so incredibly well read...and could make up such stories,.....we were never quite sure if his daily song was from experience or made up . I think you would have enjoyed his lyrics.
I'm not as well read as I should be...and I think at times, it puts a bit of a bump in my writing. So I write mostly what I know or have seen. Writing outside my comfort zone is.......
uncomfortable.
I'm not sure I've given this topic much thought till I read this chapter. This is such a great idea sharing your book with us..and then discussing it a short section at a time. thanks...
best to you...
Kaley
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#510914 - 06/08/07 11:14 AM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Kaley Willow]
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Terry Moore
Serious Contributor
Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 688
Loc: United Kingdom
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Yes Harriet..The advantage in that "place of truth" that you mention,is either in the vivid imagination of the songwriter,or taken from a real life experience..either way,the words and melody,must take the listener on an uninterrupted journey,that hopefully, they can relate to..and the icing on the cake is,if the words and melody,get under the skin and touch their emotions...a song that touches,is not easily forgotten...in most cases it is a friend for life...really good thread this one.. Thank You...Terry Moore..
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#510924 - 06/08/07 11:41 AM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Terry Moore]
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Kevin Emmrich
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 8628
Loc: Crozet, VA
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Write what you know, write what you know -- what happens if you don't know very much?
I guess the question is: Can imagination and study overcome a "lack of first hand experience"? Can I write a song about a pioneer falling in love with adventure and discovery when I have never been a pioneer before? Do I study the ways and habits of pioneers (lingo, culture, dress, religion,...) and then "add in" my experiences to the pot to come up with something believable and interesting to the listener.
We know Melville was a sailor/whaler so that helped in writing Moby Dick, but what about Tolkien in the Lord of The Rings?
Interesting chapter.
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#511080 - 06/08/07 07:58 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
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Graham Henderson
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 13618
Loc: Esperance. West Australia
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learn enough about the subject so the story will be believable to enough people, or leave it alone, I think is the answer to that one Kevin.
Graham
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#511109 - 06/08/07 11:09 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Graham Henderson]
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Heidi Thompson
Serious Contributor
Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 1867
Loc: NV
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Good one, Graham. It's about the believability. You either sell the story or you don't. First-hand experience lends truth, which makes it stronger. However, a fantastic imagination combined with the ability to create a fantasy universe which is so real that others believe it to be so, is another very strong artform in itself. Like Graham said, learn about the subject so that it contains enough truth to be believable. If you sprinkle some agreed-upon truths within a fantasy, it will be more readily accepted. Good versus Evil is always a great concept upon which most can agree. Agreement makes reality. Imagination makes new realities, but the trick is in getting others to accept the new ideas. That falls within the scope of good public relations. I mean, if the "Pet Rock" could be accepted as a great gift to buy, then anything is possible if the PR is good enough to create acceptance!
But, a great song stands all by itself...PR or no PR. Then, you just have to find a way to get it heard. We're back to PR once again! Harriet, does your book contain a chapter on PR?
Heidi
_________________________
"And, in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make." Paul McCartney
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#511117 - 06/08/07 11:56 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Heidi Thompson]
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harriet schock
JPF Mentor
Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 102
Loc: L.A., CA 90036
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I'm out of town, Heidi, without my book. I'll check when I get home. Truth can be communicated amidst fictional data. I get into that in the chapter, "Truth Vs Fact in Songwriting." Your copy should be there soon. Check it out. The industry has changed so much, though, that PR is not enough for selling CDs and songs the way independent artists need to sell. Itunes, live concerts, CD Baby and places like that require people to buy our CDs and songs one at a time. We do not have the benefit of major label bucks spent on advertising, PR and payola (or whatever the politically correct term for it is now). People have to want to buy your song because it communicates something they want to hear it or want to say to someone else with your song/record as the spokesperson. Carol may want to tell her boyfriend something she can't put into words and she loves the melody to your love song so she downloads it and plays it for him. One at a time. That's how people are won over. And the truth wins them over, along with the craft to communicate it. So I'm back to my original point I always make: truth and craft = remarkable songwriting.
Wasn't I supposed to be out of town? Well gotta go now. You guys really inspire me.
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#511120 - 06/09/07 12:02 AM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: harriet schock]
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Heidi Thompson
Serious Contributor
Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 1867
Loc: NV
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Thanks, Harriet. I just got back from my road trip and am looking forward to checking out your book. I will also get back to the next lesson in your songwriting course. I LOVE IT!!!! Thanks for being so great with all of us.
Heidi
_________________________
"And, in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make." Paul McCartney
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#511864 - 06/11/07 12:18 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Heidi Thompson]
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"Tampa Stan" Good
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 26754
Loc: Tampa, Florida since 1973
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HiDee Mz Harriet!
Sorry to be Such a Slow Reader! Enjoyed the "Newspaper" Analogy on
Critiquin'..so Very True. Newish Writers are SO Sensitive..takes a Long While to visualize Songs as "A Product" rather'n a Piece of Your Soul...(Tho, Yeah, they kinda Remain That Way, anyways..heh!)
But it's So Much EASIER to take Critiques when ya figure "Waal, they didn't bite for Brand X...Maybe I need to beef up Brand Y!"
(or..Create the "New-&-IMPROVED" Brand X...)
And..as for "Penning What Ya Know"..Yep, that makes for Authenticity. I have found that injecting enough HUMOR lets ya write about ANYTHING, as long as The Audience is IN on the Joke.
Gotta Scoot, but I'll be baaack!
Big Hugs,
Sluggardly Stan
_________________________
I try to write For The Ages, yet I'm aware about the only 200-year-old Pop Songs that have survived are Nursery Rhymes....
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#512027 - 06/12/07 12:57 AM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: ]
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Vondelle
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 1059
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
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Kevin,
Using the story of a pioneer going on an adventure as a starting place for a song, I would see what parallel experiences I have had. If you have started a new job, traveled and had challenges, experienced a vehicle breakdown, had to leave something behind, etc.; these are all experiences the pioneers faced and you can tap into the emotions you experienced and pour that into a song. That is one way to approach a topic you don't truly have experience with.
Hi Harriet,
I told someone words are my friends. Some words don't seem very friendly though. For instance, the word 'pander'. So I spent some time thinking about that in the context of the discussion. Songwriter is to pander as Music Industry is to pimps. Songwriters tend to pander because the music industry pimps songwriters and artists. I appreciate the challenge from you because it is good to go into any business/endeavor with eyes wide open.
Artistic integrity as an algebraic equation should look something like this: hc = A
Heart times Craft equals Art. As heart and craft increase the Art becomes greater. Money is not involved in this equation, rather it should foster opportunities for great art to be created. So, what is style?
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#512071 - 06/12/07 09:18 AM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Vondelle]
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harriet schock
JPF Mentor
Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 102
Loc: L.A., CA 90036
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Thanks, Vondelle (and Tampa Stan),
If songs are your children who need both heart and craft, then style is how you dress them.
Also, Vondelle, your answer to Kevin is right on the money. Find experiences you both had that would apply. When I was asked to write the love theme song for the Motown film, "The Last Dragon," which I did write (with co-writer Misha Segal), I just thought to myself, what do I have in common with this character? He was a young African American man studying Kung Fu, a virgin, from the ghetto and he met Vanity and fell in love for the first time. I said to myself, "Well, I fell in love for the first time one time," and I started there. The result was a song that worked really well for the movie and 30 people have sung it since. If I had tried to become someone I wasn't and speak of his specific experiences which I had no idea about, it would have lacked authenticity. So, Vondelle, thank you for reminding me of that point. It's very good.
Edited by harriet schock (06/12/07 11:02 PM)
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#512490 - 06/13/07 04:20 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: harriet schock]
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Dayson
Serious Contributor
Registered: 08/01/06
Posts: 277
Loc: San Diego California United St...
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Hi Harriet:)))
I Loved your song "Farris Wheel" on that Soundtrack! The "Last Dragon" was one of my favorite movies when I was a kid growing up:)
Of Course I loved Vanity and Taimak! That song was perfect at the end of the movie, where she is waiting to be reunited with him:))
When they run and embrace each other, in the Classic (Slow Motion) fashion:)))
Just a beautiful song that touched me early on before I started writing, so thanks for that wonderful song!-Dana
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#512868 - 06/14/07 07:27 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Dayson]
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harriet schock
JPF Mentor
Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 102
Loc: L.A., CA 90036
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Thanks, Dayson. Misha Segal wrote that beautiful melody (to "First Time on a Ferris Wheel") and the most gorgeous version was Carl Anderson's. If you haven't heard it, you can hear it on my website. He played Judas in "Jesus Christ Superstar," the movie, and he was my favorite singer. We lost him a year or so ago, but his art lives on. Glad you liked it when you were a wee child.
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#512908 - 06/14/07 09:04 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: harriet schock]
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Dayson
Serious Contributor
Registered: 08/01/06
Posts: 277
Loc: San Diego California United St...
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Hi Harriet,
yes, I'll go take a listen:)) Sorry to hear about his passing...
I love the fact that Music lives on long after we have gone:)))
Hope you're having a good time, we miss ya here already!
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#513419 - 06/16/07 03:48 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Dayson]
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harriet schock
JPF Mentor
Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 102
Loc: L.A., CA 90036
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It's time for a new chapter! Here's the first chapter of BECOMING REMARKABLE, which some of you already have and have read. Thanks for the discussion. I enjoy it!
1
Step One: Touch Somebody
Think back to the first time you wrote a song for someone and then played it for that person. Did it have an effect on him or her? And wasn't that a thrill? At that moment, you may have realized that the whole thing is about communication. And if it was real enough to make someone smile, or cry, or say "thank you," then who knows? It might be real enough to move millions of other people.
I live in a duplex. My only contact with the upstairs neighbors had been when I discovered my music room was directly under one of their bedrooms. Being quite elderly, they go to bed at about 9:30, so I moved my music studio to another room, directly under their spare room. They were very grateful and sweet about it. Last week, I called them to ask them something about the television antenna. They invited me up for fruit. I spent an hour and a half hearing them speak of their life, their many pets through the years, their children and grandchildren. I was so moved by the experience, I couldn't stop thinking and feeling about it. So I started writing. . . .
"The television looks like it's from the fifties,
Except that there's a cable in the back.
He sits in his special chair,
Half awake and half aware
That she is in the room somewhere,
That is his pivotal fact."
I realized that, in the middle of a million things I was supposed to be doing, I was writing a song about my upstairs neighbors. Not knowing them very well, I didn't know how they would feel about having their love story immortalized by the night owl below them, but I knew I was hooked and couldn't stop.
I called them up and told the wife I had written a song of tribute to her relationship with her husband. She then said one of those things that will forever stay in my memory, not only as a comment, but as a life's lesson. She said, "Well, it certainly can't harm the relationship. Everything only makes it better." I knew, at that point, here was a lady who had made some sane decisions. I really wanted her to like the song.
They came down this morning and I played it for them. They smiled and thanked me. Then she asked me to read the lyric to her. I did. We had a nice visit and they left. They had asked me for a copy of the lyric, which I gave them. But I made them promise when their children and grandchildren heard it, they'd let me play it with the melody, not just read the lyric. They agreed. Ten minutes after they left, the wife called me and told me that after she read the lyric, she realized what it said, how moved she was, and that her husband had tears in his eyes as well. They just couldn't hear quite well enough to make out the words without reading them. Then she said she didn't know how she could ever thank me enough for what I had done. And I thought to myself, I should be thanking them for the inspiration. What a rare couple it is who can instill that kind of feeling in someone.
My point here is that, yes, it's exciting when I hear a song of mine on the radio or in a film for the first time. But that's sort of a wild excitement that's directed outward. I've actually been known to go up to bikers in restaurants and tell them my song was playing, only to be thrilled that they were actually familiar with it and equally pleased that they weren't offended I had spoken to them. But the kind of reward I'm talking about is of a deeper, more inward nature. It comes from playing a personal communication to someone.
It's such a wonderful gift to be able to put something into music and words in the first place. And to offer it to someone as a validation of something he or she did—that's really quite a gift also. And if you've never done it, you're really missing something. On my second album, I had a song called "Mama," which was covered by Helen Reddy, after she'd had a hit with "Ain't No Way to Treat a Lady." When Helen was touring, she went through Dallas, and my mother went to see her. Afterward, my mother proudly announced that she was the "Mama" the song was written about. Looking back now, I'm so happy I had the foresight to write that song when I did.
So, as I tell every class I teach and every seminar I give, there are many reasons to write songs. Getting on the charts is just one of them, and usually not a very inspiring goal. Money is cold and generally doesn't get the kind of juices flowing that inspire art. But there are many lives to be touched by the gifts we have as songwriters. You might find that giving one of these gifts is as rewarding to you as to the recipient, if not more so.
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#513481 - 06/16/07 09:18 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: harriet schock]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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That was a nice story Harriet. A story and a chapter! At the end of this month, I am going back to Oregon to attend my mother's 80th birthday party. I have 5 brothers and sisters so with all the grand kids and great grand kids scheduled to arrive, it is going to be a big party. I contacted my old band members yesterday and we are going to play at the party. It has been 7 years but they are still working. My mom is a big fan of my original music, so I'll do some of those. All my brother's and sisters are expecting me to write a birthday song for Mom and I will write one. I know how much it will mean to her. Playing it at the party may be the biggest audience it ever gets but for one person, it will be very special. Make that at least 2 people.
_________________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
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#513523 - 06/16/07 11:30 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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Scott Campbell
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 10861
Loc: Lakeland, FL, USA
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Great story, Harriet.
And a wonderful lyric.
For me, the great thing about writing a song about real people is that it allows me to communicate things that I probably wouldn't if I was just talking to them.
Things that would make me tongue-tied (I am a guy after all) seem to come out more naturally (or at least more easily) in a song
My favorites have been written as gifts for others.
I met my wife's granddad Joe about 27 years ago and we probably visited him and my wife's grandmother Ann 4 or 5 times before he passed away. He was tough as nails (he worked in the coal mines) but perhaps the most decent human being I've ever met. A few months ago, I wrote (with the help of another relative) a song about him and gave it to Ann - she plays it all the time.
I suspect that will mean more to me than anything else that ever happens to me because of music
Great that you are getting together with your old band, Joe. Should be a great and special day...
Scott
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#513756 - 06/17/07 03:02 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Scott Campbell]
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"Tampa Stan" Good
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 26754
Loc: Tampa, Florida since 1973
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Hi Harriet!
Great Story, Good Moral~!
I've got one in my Catalogue titled "A Song for Joe"...penned On-Assignment when my HS Class Sec'y emailled & mentioned one of my Track Team Buddies was dying of cancer. & soon...had 3 months to live. His wife was also a Classmate & friend..& his 2 kids were aged 13 and 8.
After 2 days of reflection (on How I'd Feel In His Shoes...& how MAYBE I'd Feel Better) the Key Line of this Whole Lyric arrived ("We all walk the Same Pathway, You're just Further Ahead") & the Song was finished in about 20 minutes. JPF's "Little Stevie" Biederman provided Music & Vox (Thanks Steve..I just don't sing Sad Ones without Chokin' Up!) & we scooted the CD up to Joe's with 2 1/2 Months to go.
When Joe phoned me to Thank Us it REALLY Choked me up...& his wife told me Joe played it every day..then had it played for his Entire Family at the Funeral. His daughter emailled me afterwards to thank me, too...& the Song'd apparently made All-Concerned feel a lot better.
All of which leaves me Very Misted Up about This Gift we're given. If you can make people Smile at a Funeral, you can do ANYTHING with a Song..I am convinced.
(Tho I far-prefer penning HAPPIER Fare!!!)
Thanks for Sharing!
Big Hugs,
Stan
_________________________
I try to write For The Ages, yet I'm aware about the only 200-year-old Pop Songs that have survived are Nursery Rhymes....
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#514359 - 06/19/07 02:37 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: harriet schock]
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Jean Bullock
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 09/18/01
Posts: 10244
Loc: Anaheim, CA, USA
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This is a great chapter, Harriet and one I relate to very well. Most of the songs I write are liturgical and meant to be sung by the congregation. One day after the service had featured a number of my songs, a lady came up to me and asked where she could buy a CD of the music. She said the songs put into words what she had been feeling but could never express. She also said that when she sang along with the songs, she felt better. (She didn't realize that I had written the songs because I write under my maiden name.) On another occasion, a young man (late twenties/early thirties) came up to me after the service. He told me that he never sang in church but he did this time. He liked the beat and the melodies and what the songs were saying. He said they were meaningful to him and he wanted to let me know that.
The whole purpose of my ministry is to create singable music that could help others express their feelings to God and, through the use of scripture, let people learn of God's love for them. On both these occasions, I had been wondering if I had just been fooling myself and was considering ending my ministry. When those two people came up to me and let me know how the music had touched them, it not only moved me but also encouraged me. There have been other times when I was reassured but these two impressed and uplifted me the most.
Whether the music is religious or secular, when people are touched or moved or impacted in a special way, the song becomes more than clever words put to a tune. The moment a person is touched by it, the song becomes a part of them and more than just a song. It takes on a life of its own.
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#514742 - 06/21/07 02:40 AM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Jean Bullock]
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harriet schock
JPF Mentor
Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 102
Loc: L.A., CA 90036
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Thanks, Jean. I so agree. We are really all ministering to people when we say what they can't say and touch them in a way that makes them feel what they need to feel but don't know how to get to. I want to acknowledge you on your own work. I'm glad you didn't give it up. We've all had those thoughts from time to time, but I think people who write "clever words to a bunch of notes" have it more often.
Truth and craft. It takes both. Thanks for your feedback.
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#514962 - 06/21/07 09:39 PM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: harriet schock]
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Lynn Orloff
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 5161
Loc: PA of the great USA
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Hi Harriet,
I couldn't agree with you more about what you wrote above. I guess I might coin it like this:
Music if successful can surely pay the bills,
But touching someone's soul gives me the bigger thrill!
Edited by Lynn Orloff (06/22/07 07:23 AM)
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#515013 - 06/22/07 03:22 AM
Re: Chapter discussions
[Re: Lynn Orloff]
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Heidi Thompson
Serious Contributor
Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 1867
Loc: NV
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Hey Harriet,
Just droppin' in to "hang." I see that our serial lyricist has struck again! Sometimes, I just envision Lynn like "Zoro" only instead of making a "Z" with a sword, she leaves lyrics in her wake! Love that!
Are you coming back to us next week? I'm working on your songwriting course and love your book, too!
Hope all is well.
Heidi
_________________________
"And, in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make." Paul McCartney
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