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#477017 - 02/22/07 11:41 PM
New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Hi Folks,
We are going to jump right in and start experimenting with a new JPF Program: Mentor Lyric and MP3 Critiques.
The idea here is to pick 1 Lyric or MP3 file per week and have one of our JPF Mentors and sometimes Industry Guests do full critiques and post them for everyone to read, learn from and discuss. The idea here is to learn, not argue. If you want to participate, you have to accept that premise. We welcome all sincere discussion and people are free to share different opinions, with their reasoning behind it, but we want to avoid anyone attacking anyone's opinion. That would defeat the purpose.
Long time JPF Mentor Harriet Schock has agreed to be the guinea pig for this program to get us started. You can learn more about her at http://www.harrietschock.com. I am sure as we test this program out, we'll find ways to improve it and make it more beneficial to everyone involved. So please be patient, especially through the first few attempts, while we figure out exactly how to best proceed.
For now, here is the methodology I suggest.
Step 1: Each week I will create a Post for new entries. The purpose of this post is for all those interested to post a copy of 1 lyric or MP3 file link with lyrics for consideration. We will consider the first 49 entries (1 full page if you're viewing 50 posts at a time like I do). If you don't make it in the first 49, you'll have to wait until the next time.
Step 2: The Mentor involved that week will scan through the entries and choose one. I will instruct them to find a Lyric or MP3 File and Lyric that they think will allow them to make some interesting points that will educate folks. Since we hope to do this weekly, we want Mentors to be able to address different types of strengths and weaknesses so that we continue to learn as a group. (Instead of simply making the same or similar points week after week).
Step 3: Once the mentor chooses that weeks victim.. er.. selection, we will post it for open comment from everyone. The idea here is to get everyone to commit to their critiques. We don't want the songwriter to reply or post themselves however. That will come later. (I.e. don't thank people or get into cross discussions).
Step 4: Once we give folks a chance to post their own critique, we'll post the Mentor Critique. (I will do this just below the lyric/link itself as an edit. So you'll see the Lyric and the Mentor Critique and then all the other critiques. Then we'll open it up for further discussion. Points to be considered would be both the feedback on the lyric as well as how others perceived and critiqued it as well. This will give us a lot of chances to learn and discuss.
Step 5: Once everyone has commented, we'll lock the post and start on the next week's critique process.
We will also have a rule that you can only enter a Lyric File 1 time. That (I hope) will encourage people to write NEW Lyrics each week. A little extra motivation to be more prolific. I won't be as strict with the MP3's because I know not everyone can afford new demos for different songs each week. If possible, we'll expand this to have a critique of both a Lyric and an MP3 File/Lyric each week. But let's start with 1 or the other this week and see how it goes. For week 1, we will accept either a Lyric Only OR an MP3 Link & Lyric. (If you happen to write an instrumental only track, you'll have to hold off for now).
How does that sound?
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney 
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#477169 - 02/23/07 10:28 AM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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Question on step 1:
Should we enter our own song or can we "nominate" a song?
Should we post only a new lyric or comb the archives for any lyric?
The rest of the steps are clear enough- We critique first so
we get to make fools of ourselfs (if we are off base) or congratulate ourselfs if our critiques are on the mark. This will be fun and interesting. It is innovations like this Brian, that make your site as popular and effective as it is.
_________________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
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#477262 - 02/23/07 02:07 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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You can post anything you want, but I don't want anyone to "nominate" something. It has to be the choice of the person who wrote it. Some might not want so much public scrutiny and no one should pressure them. Let's let folks make up their own minds.
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#477574 - 02/24/07 10:59 AM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Vondelle
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 1059
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
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We are going to learn so much from this. Yay!
Thank you, Brian. This will be like going to a mini seminar every week. Thanks also to Harriet Schock for being a guinea pig. May we provide her with good food for thought.
Vondelle
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#477608 - 02/24/07 12:43 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Joanne Lurgio
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 01/07/01
Posts: 3900
Loc: RI, USA
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Sounds great Brian! I am ready to learn. Thanks to you and to Harriet for trying this out.. I think is a wonderful opportunity for all of us.
Joanne
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#477758 - 02/24/07 08:33 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Joanne Lurgio]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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The first week's pick is posted. Please offer your feedback/critiques to start the process. Once we have at least a dozen or more responses, we'll post Harriet's feedback.
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#477826 - 02/25/07 01:25 AM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Mike Dunbar
JPF Mentor
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 8201
Loc: Nashville Tennessee
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This is great. It's serious, people aren't just posting crits to get crits, (a problem with every website I've seen) and so far, you've defused the flame wars that people seem to start (which I've seen here and a lot at other places).
Good system, wonderful educational resource.
I'd be surprised if it doesn't get copied throughout the net.
All the Best,
Mike
_________________________
Anybody who’s made it will tell you, you can make it. Anyone who hasn’t made it will tell you, you can’t -John Mayer Success is simply a matter of luck. Ask any failure. -Earl Wilson It's only music. -niteshift Mike Dunbar Music
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#477960 - 02/25/07 01:45 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Greg C. Brown
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 3087
Loc: Suffolk, Virginia, USA
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I like this new critique concept, Brian. I think it will be very useful. I'm curious though. Do you anticipate having a lyric/mp3 discussion each week? Seems like (1) with people posting their songs, (2) everybody offering critiques, and then (3) Harriet giving her take and opening it up to further discussions, it could take more than a week to do this concept justice. Of course, you have the capability to lock all posts, so I guess you can end things at the end of each week if you like. I know I've seen some lyric critiques go on and on for a long time. Maybe a two-week time frame is in order? Just something I wondered about. Great idea!
Greg
_________________________
If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding.
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#478212 - 02/26/07 03:38 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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rhythm
Casual Observer
Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 2
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah
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Brian,
What would you say to someone who hasn't the foggiest idea how to go about placing an MP3 file online? I don't have a home computer and rely just upon the graces of the library presently! I wonder as well how to protect things best -so no one would steal them or ideas! Or songs for that matter!
The Rhythm
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rhythm
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#478214 - 02/26/07 03:39 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: rhythm]
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rhythm
Casual Observer
Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 2
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah
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Jim in Salt Lake City, Utah
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rhythm
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#478231 - 02/26/07 04:53 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: rhythm]
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Linda Adams
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 06/12/06
Posts: 5526
Loc: Danville, CA, USA
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Jim, the easiest thing, that most of us do, is to set up a free account with Soundclick:
http://www.soundclick.com
Make sure you put your copyright info on your post.
You have your MP3 file somewhere, I imagine--you'll have to figure out how to get it off your player or wherever and onto a portable disk/USB hard drive etc to attach to the library computer, so you can upload from there into Soundclick. And you're set!
Brian,
This is all very very cool, and I'm looking forward to participating here. Thank you, and Harriet, for setting this up! I hope to learn a lot.
Thanks!!
Linda
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#478942 - 03/01/07 10:16 AM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Linda Adams]
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Wyman Lloyd
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 6175
Loc: Missouri
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Jes' wonderin'. Whatta' I know----The songs being posted seem slow coming in again. Wondered if there might be more if they weren't posted on line except where Harriet could see them and then ,of course the one she picked would be posted for all to critique. I mean, is there any particular advantage to posting them for the world? If one was a bit paranoid, If they entered every week, they'd be putting up 50 songs to get, maybe one critiqued. 'Course you could put up something that's already been on the board or something already demod but that didn't seem like the original idea. Just wondering if there might be more songs put up that way. I thought there'd be like 40 or so when it started. Maybe they'll pick up though.
Wy
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#478972 - 03/01/07 12:39 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Wyman Lloyd]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Wy,
Not sure why folks aren't getting involved. I was going to leave it up to the folks already on the board, but if it doesn't pick up then I will post it in the newsletter and that will likely get a lot more folks interested outside of the board regulars. I guess right now is the best time to enter since currently there's only 11 entries giving you a good shot at being chosen. I am less worried about entries and more concerned that more folks didn't comment and get into the discussion after the critique. But it's still early.. we'll let it run for a month or two and see how it goes.
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#478996 - 03/01/07 01:55 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Vondelle
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 1059
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
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Hi Brian,
I think the timing on this needs to be locked in to specific days. For instance,
Step 1: Post lyrics on Monday and Tuesday.
Step 2: Harriet chooses the lyric she wants to evaluate, Wednesday.
Step 3: Everyone posts their feedback on that lyric on Thursday and Friday.
Step 4: Harriet's feedback is posted and we all spend time discussing that on Sat. and Sunday.
This can start on any day of the week but then I think it needs to be consistent.
I think a lot of people are 'participating' by attending without commenting or submitting lyrics until they feel more comfortable. 
I am going to take the lyric I posted on the Feb. 22 entry week and post it on lyric forum 1, hopefully by tomorrow, with what I learned from the feedback Harriet gave to Nashville Cat. That way I will feel like I am moving forward with the critique process on the song even if it didn't get chosen here. Certainly, getting a professional critique is worth paying for when one is ready to do that, too.
A grand adventure for all of us.
Vondelle
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#479287 - 03/02/07 12:17 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Vondelle]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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I understand the concerns about having exact days. Remember, we're working out the details of this program and I wanted to get a couple weeks in before we lock stuff down. We had a lot more entries this week (a great thing) and I love your idea of continuing the process Vondelle and posting a re-worked version of your entry for further critique. Great idea.
We'll eventually settle into a routine. I wasn't available last night to post the new entry, but it is up right now.
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#479310 - 03/02/07 01:29 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Jean Bullock
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 09/18/01
Posts: 10244
Loc: Anaheim, CA, USA
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Brian, perhaps alternating the weeks between lyrics only and MP3 only might be a good thing.
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#479343 - 03/02/07 04:12 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Jean Bullock]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Jean,
There's really not an "mp3 only" type of thing unless it's instrumental only. She's looking at both for the most interesting things to comment on. She spent most of her critique on the lyric last time which applies to both groups equally. Unless we see significant demand, I see no reason to break it up. I initially expected we'd have to cut off entries at 50.. but we haven't even gotten there yet. Let's let the thing grow for a few weeks and see.
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#480059 - 03/04/07 10:15 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Mike Dunbar
JPF Mentor
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 8201
Loc: Nashville Tennessee
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Brian,
I've been reading the past two weeks. This is working out even better than anticipated. It's overcoming the problems I mentioned and then some. I love the way it gets everybody treating the critical process intellectually and civilly. Harriet has the soul of a teacher as well as an artist. Her critiques are positive, accurate, and helpful. Hopefully a lot of the JPF regulars will use her business.
I wouldn't worry about the numbers, they'll increase. Despite the attendance, there are, I'm certain, a lot of folks who are learning valuable lessons just reading the threads. That alone makes this a great resource for the songwriter.
Good work, and good work Harriet.
Mike
_________________________
Anybody who’s made it will tell you, you can make it. Anyone who hasn’t made it will tell you, you can’t -John Mayer Success is simply a matter of luck. Ask any failure. -Earl Wilson It's only music. -niteshift Mike Dunbar Music
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#480063 - 03/04/07 11:04 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Mike Dunbar]
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Idamarie
Serious Contributor
Registered: 12/20/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Lorain,Ohio USA
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Brian and Harriet, I am totally impressed with the critic of Joyful Noises and found it not only stimulating, but very informative. She actually offered so many tips and treasures of helpful rules and things to watch out for that I have printed it and plan to read it again and again. Her suggestion that the first draft of a lyric is almost never the last draft is so very true. It made me more comfortable with the frequent multiple edits I am always chewing on in my own phrases. Thanks for a wonderful new addition to this forum and to the talents of the mentors who give thier time and expertise to help others succeed in writing a really good workable lyric. Idamarie
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#480266 - 03/05/07 05:10 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Idamarie]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Hi Idamarie,
It's great to see you around again! I was getting worried about you. Let's try to reset your old user name. Send me a private message with a current email address (preferably other than the one you are using with the registration above) and I will send you a new password to your old user name if you'd like to pick up where you left off?
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#480268 - 03/05/07 05:15 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Hi Folks,
I am very happy so far where this has gone. Anyone not participating by at least reading must really not want to learn because just reading the posts is very imformative and thought provoking. Harriet is the real deal both as a writer and as an amazing educator. This is what has been missing on our Feedback Forums and I may look to expand it in some productive way to cover just music tracks, production etc. If we could get 10-20 professionals to do this on specific things each week, we could revolutionize our own site and as Mike predicted, force the others to step up equally. (We get copied all the time as it is...).
So please continue to get involved. And if you have ideas of how we could expand this to production, music composition, lyrics etc... let me know and we'll give it a try. I just don't want to water it down too soon as we've just gotten started.
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#480312 - 03/05/07 07:21 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Hummingbird
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 2401
Loc: Victoria, B.C. Canada
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I think interest is picking up Brian. This was a wonderful idea and I've learned so much in just two weeks. Kudos to you and Harriet.
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#480365 - 03/05/07 08:49 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Hummingbird]
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Wyman Lloyd
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 6175
Loc: Missouri
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Yep, things are picking up.
And welcome back Idamarie
Wy
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#480456 - 03/06/07 07:17 AM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Wyman Lloyd]
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Kevin Emmrich
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 8628
Loc: Crozet, VA
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Brian,
I PM'd you a quick question -- I am not sure how that works, so I don't know if you got it.
Great idea you have going on here!
Kevin
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#480477 - 03/06/07 08:48 AM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
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Jean Bullock
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 09/18/01
Posts: 10244
Loc: Anaheim, CA, USA
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Brian, the number of views is pretty substantial. Only you would know who is reading them of course, and hopefully they include the people who post on these forums.
I think some people may feel a little nervous about posting songs and critiques. It takes a certain amount of courage to not only place your song before a professional song writer of Harriet's caliber but to also post it in a public forum for all the world to see. I think most people would enjoy hearing that their songs were examples of good song writing but how many would enjoy hearing that songs were examples of what not to do in a song? Likewise with the critiques.
As time goes on, people will discover the process isn't as painful as they thought it would be and will gather the courage to post both songs and critiques. We are really lucky to have her on board and I think most of us appreciate the opportunity you and she have given us.
Edited by JeanB (03/06/07 08:49 AM)
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#480497 - 03/06/07 09:10 AM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Jean Bullock]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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It think that Kevin's post should have removed fear someone might have. He got a tough critique, but he clearly seems to "get it" and I bet will have that tool of knowledge and awareness going forward to all the songs he does in the future. What a great experience, even though it was a really pointed critique. The only reason someone might want to NOT participate is if they have ego issues with their work and don't want to damage that. I think the worst enemy of a writer is also a common one. People convince themselves they are really better than they are. They do it for many reasons, but I think in many cases, there's always that suspicion that they'll be outed as frauds. Even very successful writers suffer from this. (I read interviews all the time with actors, corporate leaders, musicians and songwriters etc.) who are at the top of their game in very public jobs and who fear being exposed as a fraud. But the truth is we're ALL frauds to an extent. None of us can escape criticism no matter what we do and someone out there will always claim you aren't as good as you think you are, as well as saying you aren't as good as you REALLY are. That's is a crushing problem that most writers face and only a few can overcome. And that is the fear that I think many here on the boards may face before they can put themselves out there. But I think once someone does, they realize their fear was their problem more than that "exposure." Even the best writers in the world have written really flawed songs. The great ones learn from it. The pretenders don't allow themselves to.
Food for thought.
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#480515 - 03/06/07 09:40 AM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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argo
Serious Contributor
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 986
Loc: boston,massachusetts
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You are absolutely right Brian. Case in point: I lurked on this sight for 6 or 7 months before I got the courage to post a lyric for critique. The idea of putting my stuff out there was scary because in a forum people can say any thing they want and be as irresponsible as they like in judging other's work. But I found that JPF is a place where you can learn to grow your craft, nurture your talent, and also (which is the coolest thing) help other people to do the same without fear of ridicule. Yes, there is a lot of pandering going on on the boards. There is also a lot of wonderful ideas and refreshing attitudes and awesome talent out there too. The caliber of writers JPF attracts speaks volumes about the kind of atmosphere you have developed here. I dare say that JPF has become an actual "place" where ideas can live and breathe. A place where peoples hearts and minds can dwell at ease without fear of rejection.
Thanks,
Rick
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#480602 - 03/06/07 12:51 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: argo]
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harriet schock
JPF Mentor
Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 102
Loc: L.A., CA 90036
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I must say at this point that it is refreshing to me to see the kind of supportive attitude you guys show one another. Yes, it is vitally important not to have the creative spirit injured. And Brian is correct that even experienced writers go through that sort of fear, but one thing I've learned over the years of writing and performing and teaching is that some people are simply not your target audience. For instance, a less literate listener will not understand some references the writer really wants to use. Some of my students will use references in their songs because they want to attract the people who know those references. The song could refer to a film or a book and their target audience would know about it. So I say leave it in there and find their audience that way. That's different from simply writing vague or abstract lyrics that no one will understand. Or breaking so many songwriting conventions that the work is no longer able to be appreciated by anyone but a handful. My job here is to help everyone see a view of the song that may not have occurred to you, whether you're the writer or not, how and where it could have been stronger, and I try to be careful not to hurt that creative spirit that underlies everything we do, in songwriting or just living. I appreciate that you see my intentions are to help. That is very important to me.
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#480660 - 03/06/07 04:24 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: harriet schock]
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Herbie Gaines
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 2809
Loc: Chicago,IL, USA
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I appreciate that you see my intentions are to help. That is very important to me
-----------------------------------------------------------------
There is NO doubt about that in ANYONEs mind, Harriet, why else would you be here? And we all REALLY appreciate it!!! And yes, this group is incredibly supportive...joining JPF is one of the best things to happen to me in recent years!! The more you hang out, the more you'll like it, I believe!!
Herbie
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#480705 - 03/06/07 07:25 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Herbie Gaines]
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Linda Adams
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 06/12/06
Posts: 5526
Loc: Danville, CA, USA
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Amen to that! And Ditto!
Linda
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#480861 - 03/07/07 08:39 AM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Linda Adams]
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Wyman Lloyd
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 6175
Loc: Missouri
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Looks like there'll be a natural attrition process going on here in that after someone has a song picked, they're not going to get another one picked for an extended time so there's not much point in posting anymore. Point being we'd need new blood all the time to take care of that, but that may very well be forthcoming
Wy
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#480867 - 03/07/07 08:53 AM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Wyman Lloyd]
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Kevin Emmrich
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 8628
Loc: Crozet, VA
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Wy,
Interesting point. However, I see nothing in the "rules" that says you can't post again, even if you were picked. The rules just say don't use the same song twice. In my case, I had planned on a self-imposed exile for a few weeks anyway. All my songs are PH (pre-Harriet review). Therefore, it doesn't make any sense to submit another song until I have implemented Harriet's lessons in a new song (and I have to re-read week one's critique also).
Kevin
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#480911 - 03/07/07 11:06 AM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
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Teddie Cochran Music
Serious Contributor
Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 374
Loc: Oroville, CA, USA
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Harriet, I would like to tell that your service here is invaluable. I have been writing for years to get to the point I am now. And as good as I might be, I have never really had anyone show me the ins and outs of writing from your stand point. You provide that support. I cannot tell you enough how much you have helped me both on the writing side and the critiquing side. You have reinforces my strong points and pointed out some weak points. Thank you agian!
Brain, I think another good place to have this kind of mentoring is in the marketing area i.e., getting you music to the right publishers and the proper way to pitch them.
Best Regards,
Teddie Cochran
http://www.teddiecochran-music.com
Edited by teddie359 (03/07/07 01:22 PM)
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#480927 - 03/07/07 12:45 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Teddie Cochran Music]
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Wyman Lloyd
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 6175
Loc: Missouri
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Well , on the attrition, I'd think it'd be unlikely a person would be picked again anytime soon, though I don't know of any rules against it and even if they did, IMO there'd be folks saying "How come they get picked twice. I've never been picked at all"
Brian will probably come on after a bit and settle the whole thing
Wy
(Hmmm, didn't know Brian might be under the weather, well,,get well quick Brian. Who's gonna' run the show if the ringmaster's not here)
Edited by Wyman Lloyd (03/07/07 02:24 PM)
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#480973 - 03/07/07 04:24 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Wyman Lloyd]
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Herbie Gaines
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 2809
Loc: Chicago,IL, USA
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You know, I was thinking that if Harriet found a few songs in a weeks pool of them, that she should the option of using them. Why be so rigid that she can only use one? Just post it...the people waiting for the next batch for consideration will have no problem with that. What does anyone think of that? It could be better for her, so she doesn't feel so much pressure to read and listen to every entry EVERY time we do this. I could see that being overwhelming and causing her to stop. Brian, you could just announce that she picked 3 from the new batch, and do them one at a time, then say ok time for a new batch!!! Make sense?
Herbie
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#480980 - 03/07/07 04:49 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Herbie Gaines]
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Kaika Kale
Serious Contributor
Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 277
Loc: New Hampshire, USA
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You know, I was thinking that if Harriet found a few songs in a weeks pool of them, that she should the option of using them. Why be so rigid that she can only use one? Just post it...the people waiting for the next batch for consideration will have no problem with that. What does anyone think of that? It could be better for her, so she doesn't feel so much pressure to read and listen to every entry EVERY time we do this. I could see that being overwhelming and causing her to stop. Brian, you could just announce that she picked 3 from the new batch, and do them one at a time, then say ok time for a new batch!!! Make sense?
Herbie
I like Herbie's idea as well. If a song has been submitted once, Harriet should be able to choose it now or three weeks from now if she believes that it possesses something that could serve as a learning tool for others.
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#481076 - 03/08/07 03:14 AM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Kaika Kale]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Part of the goal here is to get folks to be more proactive and prolific. I truly think that many people get way too hung up on a handful of songs and don't move forward with anything new. Since this is just a critique and not a publishing pitch etc.. it would be great if everyone just wrote something new to post for feedback. And each week, include the things you learned the previous week and improve as you go. Also, it would be really sad if people can't understand the value of being involved even if it's not YOUR lyric that is posted. If you've read the first two weeks of critiques, you HAVE to realize the value of just participating. Posting something.. then reading whatever is chosen.. posting your own detailed critique... then reading everyone elses thoughts.. then seeing what Harriet has to say and then discussing how her points match or are different than your own... if your goal is to learn through direct participation, surely that process is way more important than simply being "chosen" on a given week. Especially considering it's not like she's choosing the "Best" lyric.. so there shouldn't be much ego stroking involved if you get picked. She is as likely to pick the worst lyric or song file/lyric as the best in a given week.
As for doing more than one in a week... I think that would curtail involvement dramatically. After all, if you know there's no entry segment.. and you have zero chance of being chosen for nearly a month, then new folks won't get involved at all. (Imagine.. you've never participated.. and you have to wait a month? no thanks..). Sure.. some of the long time regulars may "get" it.. but we want to keep this thing fresh. I know folks are already getting edgy about waiting a week.. let alone 3-4-5 weeks.
I have no rule against Harriet picking whatever she wants in a given week. So if Pokey Joe has the most usable lyric 2 or 3 times, then Pokey Joe will get chosen by her. And there's no rule she couldn't use pieces of more than one, but we have to repsect her time and asking her to do more than 1 is unfair. If folks are really dying to get her critique on a lyric, they should consider hiring her to do it. Then you'll get her all to yourself! = )
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#481216 - 03/08/07 03:47 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Herbie Gaines
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 2809
Loc: Chicago,IL, USA
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I thought that my idea was to make it EASIER for Harriet..she might choose 2 or 3 great learning opportunities from a week---and not have to read 30 entrees for a few weeks--- I AM NOT trying to argue with you Brian, it is not that big of a deal---BUT---one thing you're missing up there----
----------------------------------------------------------------
As for doing more than one in a week... I think that would curtail involvement dramatically. After all, if you know there's no entry segment.. and you have zero chance of being chosen for nearly a month, then new folks won't get involved at all. (Imagine.. you've never participated.. and you have to wait a month? no thanks..). Sure.. some of the long time regulars may "get" it.. but we want to keep this thing fresh. I know folks are already getting edgy about waiting a week.. let alone 3-4-5 weeks.
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If people know she might pick 2 or 3, they might feel a BETTER chance of getting picked and might put in MORE...but that's not the thing I feel strongest about....YOU BRIAN are obsessed with everything you do---you do it to excess---you'd write 10 songs in a blur----but I think MOST people are more like me--it takes me a long time...to write a song in a week would be amazing for me...it takes me a month to a year to even have something I would be comfortable presenting...If Harriet picked 3 and say I knew it would be 2 or 3 weeks until another mass batch of entrees, I MYSELF (just me personally but I suspect I'd have alot of people agree) would WELCOME that chance to take a breath and put something up I was proud of, even if it DIDN'T get picked!!!! I personally will not just throw something there with no thought in it. Most people will not have the time or energy to be putting a brand new one in EVERY week Brian. Whatever you choose is fine, I just think my way would be easier for Harriet...and she still may just pick ONE!!! The quality of the entrees if there was a bigger pause between batch entrees would also be higher.
Herbie
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#481225 - 03/08/07 04:54 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Herbie Gaines]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Herbie,
How many songs have you written? How many have made it into finished format and released on an album? How many are left? Post those. Seriously.. it's certainly possible that some folks are starting with ZERO songs and would have to write a new song from scratch each week. For that group, then it's really simple.. you post something when you have something. We really don't need much more than 50 lyrics or lyric/mp3's per week to have a wide variety of stuff to choose from. That's 2500 total in a year. We have 41,000 members. I am guessing that among even the fraction of that total that post here, we'd only need each member to have written a handful of songs in their entire life leading up to this to have plenty of stuff to work with. I know some folks who have already written more than 50 songs. That's a song a week in reserve for any weeks they don't write something new. Pro writers (and the point of this is to help people develop the skills to be pro writers) find much of their success by writing new songs and improving their craft each time they do. It's one thing to obsess over a single song going back over and over to try and tweak it. But I think most great lessons really show up when you write your NEW songs with the knowledge base you build up each time. So in your case Herbie, if you've written 10 songs previously in your life and you write 2 songs in the next year, you could easily post a new song once a month and never repeat. If you do more or have more, then you could do it more often. I bet the majority of folks here have more than a dozen songs/lyrics in the can and probably write at least a half dozen songs/lyrics in a year giving them plenty of songs/lyrics to enter. If we had 500 members participating out of 41,000 who had a dozen songs/lyrics ready to go per year, we'd be swamped with weekly posts with no problem. We certainly have more than that in numbers posting here a week. This month alone we're averaging over 16K unique visitors a day to the boards alone. That's well over a half million a year. I think having something fresh and a new change to participate each week will get some more of those anonymous folks to dip their toes in and will give the folks who are prolific and those who aren't, more reasons to stay involved over the course of the year.
As for your comment that I do everything to excess.. I can't argue with you there. My wife said the same thing on something else just last week. It's hard for me to do anything at less than 100 MPH. Part of it is because I personally get bored quickly and the other part of it is that life is short so do what you can while you're here. I've spent a lot of time over the last 9 years (and before that for that matter) being told what I couldn't do. So I respond often by just blowing through the roadblocks as passionately as possible. I am sure that annoys a lot of people, but I can think of worse flaws to have! = )
Even if you only write 1 lyric or song in a year, you have a place to participate here. If you write a lyric every day (which it seems like Dawg used to do) there's also plenty of room for you to participate. It's the same reason we've never had a rule limiting (or mandating) how many posts people can make here. If it were up to me, I'd find 7 mentors to do a new critique every single day. As it is, participate as much or as little as you'd like. And remember, if you entered your lyric and it wasn't chosen out of the 3 or 4 that were.. it would be less fun (for me at least) than having the chance to be chosen each new cycle.
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#481238 - 03/08/07 05:41 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Herbie Gaines
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 2809
Loc: Chicago,IL, USA
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Ok, that makes sense!!! The main thing is the program has a great start and will only get better...
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#482069 - 03/11/07 05:34 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Herbie Gaines]
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Wyman Lloyd
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 6175
Loc: Missouri
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Heck, I thought we might have between 30 and 40 songs posted this time. What'd we have? Actual posts, 16 or 17?. That's quite a drop even from the week before. But we've got "viewers". Over 700 first week and over 900 last week, so I guess it's popular all right. Maybe that's the main thing. I guess maybe you really "can" learn a lot from just reading the critiques. Heck, it just takes a few of us suckers, uh, guinea pigs,uh, posters <G>, to make it work. I'll have to think further on the subject. (My mind works slowly ya' see.)
Carry on as before
Wy
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#482151 - 03/11/07 11:23 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Wyman Lloyd]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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I think the key is the number of folks who post critiques and interact after Harriet posts. I am less concerned about the entries as long as there's something for her to choose from each week. I will post a note about it in the newsletter so we may have an influx of new entries after that, but they may not be the types to hang around as we've learned from the Lyric Award entries each time (lots of new posters who never come back). I really want to find more things to give new folks reasons to hang out and get involved. We all win if that happens.
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#482744 - 03/14/07 01:44 AM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Doug/Liszt Laughing
Serious Contributor
Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 981
Loc: Indiana
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Having Harriet critique is one of the best things you have ever done on the board...it's been very interesting to read them and to, like you said, read real critiques...I think it's too hard for most of us to be totally honest if we know the people and all...we want people to like us. I never critique but that just my feeling...
_________________________
Boo...my name is Doug
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#483939 - 03/18/07 02:44 AM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Dude Absher
Serious Contributor
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 73
Loc: Liberty Missouri USA
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------------------
Dude: I removed your entry. This post is simply for discussion. We will accept new entries next Thursday on the post created for that. Until then, feel free to join the current process by offering a critique and interacting with Harriet.
Thanks,
Brian
------------------
Edited by Brian Austin Whitney (03/18/07 12:50 PM)
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#484056 - 03/18/07 12:49 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Dude Absher]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Dude,
This isn't the place to enter something. This is a FAQ to ask and answer questions. Please wait until the next entry period which will start next Thursday. In the meantime, feel free to offer a critique of this week's entry posted under the Week 4 Pick.
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#484077 - 03/18/07 03:02 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Ernest Whaley
Serious Contributor
Registered: 04/29/05
Posts: 161
Loc: Newmarket, NH. USA
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How do we post on Thursday?
Blessings and balance,
Ernest
I am brand new here.
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#484259 - 03/19/07 03:38 AM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Ernest Whaley]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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There will be a post that says Post Week 5: (March 22) Entries Here (Just as there was for Week 1, 2, 3 and 4 which you can see on the main page Mentor Critique page). Post your entry there for consideration each Thursday.
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#484315 - 03/19/07 10:23 AM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Ernest Whaley
Serious Contributor
Registered: 04/29/05
Posts: 161
Loc: Newmarket, NH. USA
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Thank you!!
Blessings and Balance,
Ernest
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#485380 - 03/22/07 06:59 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Dude Absher]
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Dude Absher
Serious Contributor
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 73
Loc: Liberty Missouri USA
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------------------
Dude: I removed your entry. This post is simply for discussion. We will accept new entries next Thursday on the post created for that. Until then, feel free to join the current process by offering a critique and interacting with Harriet.
Thanks,
Brian
------------------
Brian and to All:
I am Sorry about that --
Thank You for your Help...
Take Care:
Dude
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#486305 - 03/25/07 11:02 PM
Re: New Forum For Mentor Critiques: FAQ and Discussion
[Re: Dude Absher]
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Al David
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 02/21/01
Posts: 9175
Loc: Middle Tennessee
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Brian and everyone...
First, as almost everyone has already said...what a wonderful opportunity this is for all of us! Harriet's gift of precious time and professional expertise is worth so much to us. Thank you, Harriet!
Regarding participation by JPFers...I am convinced that over a relatively brief period of time, the number of folks becoming involved will gradually increase. Most people tend to be a bit timid about jumping into something new; they need to find a comfort level with it first.
And, as you mentioned earlier, Brian, a few folks probably think a little more highly of their skills than what might be an accurate assessment. Having that exposed in a public arena would not be particularly comfortable for those few folks. But, I think they are, by far, the exception to the huge majority of JPFers.
But, I think that many of us do not know how to give an unbiased, objective and thorough critque of an ENTIRE song. By reviewing and analyzing Harriet's critiques, and the critiques of JPFers who ARE good critiquers, we have a real opportunity to learn. And as we become more proficient, we will become more involved. I gave my first in-depth critique this week (March 22). By closely examining Harriet's previous critiques and the really detailed critiques of the more accomplished JPFers, it gave me direction and the notion that occassionally I might actually know a little bit about something that I am doing.
The learning process of this excercise is so far-reaching to the rest of us, whether or not our personal entry is selected. Other than personal and professional friendships I have developed through my participation in various JPF activities, this process has been the most helpful, educational and enriching experience I have had, musically, in my six-plus years as an active JPF member.
To those of you who are a little timid to become involved...I suggest that you jump right in, even if you think your lyric/song has ugly warts all over it. You will never be exposed...FOR FREE!!!...to a better or more positive way to make those ugly warts disappear. Most of us are here to improve our skills. But, that will be hard to do if we don't publicly expose our weaknesses in a controlled and nurturing environment such as this. You will probably never have another opportunity like this in your musical lifetime! Don't waste it!
Alan
Edited by Al David (03/25/07 11:06 PM)
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