JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum how to rewrite a lic song

I've heard an old 70's acoustic county ballad that I'd like to rewrite,legally. It is owned by a big music co that licenses and has 100 % rights, not the writer.
How does one go about dealing in this type of matter? Does licensing allow for a rewrite or is this a different type of negotiating. I think that about 50% of the words will change, some deleted others expanded as well as another verse or 2 added and melody staying the same. Nothing down on paper yet, just what's running around in my head.
I'm hoping some here have run into this or seen a path to take, thanks Wyndham

Please let the Muse flow and write away!!!!

Seriously!!!!

The first order of business is to write, and there ain't no law against it.

Write it. See what you end up with. Hope that it's MAGIC.

And then, follow down all the appropriate "business" channels.

But first...Write it, satisfy the Muse, and then get some feedback before worrying about the lawyers!!!

...And by the way, the Best Man at my wedding, and one of my dearest friends, who is one of a very strange breed that's known as "A Lawyer With a Conscience", would advise you the same way...

The first order of Creative Business is letting the Muse flow.

Midnite

Well we are working on it tonight while it's still fresh in mine and my wife's minds. already about 75% roughed in.I'm not worried about the lawyers, but thought the original writers might like to break into new ground going from early ballad love song to Gospel.I was surprised to find a publishing house had the 100 % rights as I had hoped it was still with the writer.
We just got a new Ipad and Garageband smart guitar gives a good beat and strumming to flesh out ideas.
Thanks for the feedback Wyndham

What would be your application for the song? If it is just to do some presentation, like in a church, for yourself, limited release, it's probably no big deal. Trying to do it commercially, I'd avoid it like the plague. Anytime you start messing around with other people's work, particularly without permission, you are just asking for trouble. What if someone started taking your songs and using them for something you didn't believe in, like porno movies or something? You probably wouldn't care that much for it.

You probably do need to get permission from the writer and publisher depending on what you are wanting to do. It would be called a 'derivative work" and there are laws about it. People do it mostly when it comes to "parodies." That usually is making comedy songs into existing songs.

Any song that has commercial applications, particularly from the past, are going to have publishers owning 100% of the song. That is the industry norm from the beginning of commercial music. Publishers are in the business to publish songs, writers to write. Self publishing was not even done till later in history. People self publish now because there are very few legitimate publishers, and publishing doesn't count for what it used to, so no one really WANTS to do publishing anymore.

All about the money.
MAB

Morning Marc
This is an old song written by Brewer & Shipley "Overflowing Heart" that's covered by many today. I've reached out to them on FB but waiting to see if they answer. My belief is that they first need to get onboard both because it's their work and that it might be something that they would like to do expanding in their work.
I realize the Christian music biz area is as cutthroat as any genre, but the true meaning to the Gospel is sharing, which is sometime looked on as naive in today's world
This song has a simple melody that I think, we can change to a different presentation as a Christian Praise song and as we have rewritten almost all of the words as well I think this will be viewed as new work, if the writers object in any way.
We will also work on a different melody for the song as a plan B.
Thanks for your comments, looking forward to your continuing thoughts. Wyndham

Wyndham,

It would be another reason I would be hesitant in doing anything until I hear from them. And if I didn't hear from them, I might go a different way. The reason is that RELIGION and songs of FAITH can be as polarizing as anything. I don't think I need to remind you of the culture wars that are going on in our society.

Some people don't WANT to be known for anything remotely close to Christianity. And as benign as it would seem to be, people take their own faith, (or lack thereof) pretty seriously. You could be dealing with some "Theists" or totally atheists that have very bad experiences with Christian or many other forms of music.

And then it might be perfectly fine. I am just trying to point out things I see happen a lot. I do know of someone who was a pop star in the 80's, and someone did a Christian version of one of his songs. He was attempting to get a "cease and desist" order because his faith was one of the Eastern Indian religions and was insulted by their attempts.

My particular thoughts are just in general, I don't really think it is a good idea to go messing with other people's works, regardless of intentions, because it can be a grey area. And I am one that has done parodies and other versions of songs. But I have stopped that, just due to things I have seen happen over the past few years. Why invite trouble when you don't need it? And why do you really need to wait on them if you have lyrics? Just find another melody and do your own. You can even pattern it after the original song if you want.

If you are NOT hearing back from them, there might be a reason for it. They might be totally out of business, publishing companies folded, (a lot of artists from that era, have long put their music paths behind them) or they could be deceased. I think you would eliminate a lot of headaches if you just put something together on your own, and go from there.

My two cents.

MAB

Marc, I've heard back by way of his manager and basically going to send them a copy we will record just for them to review. His manager also stress Michael's protective nature of the lyrics, with which I'm in full agreement of this .I have also agreed to keep the lyric private until we get an approval to do anything further.
I understand the delicate nature of personal religious POV. We have a strong faith and if the shoe were on the other foot, I recognize the issues involved

Next question, if I may, is about music etiquette and ethics. Should I mention, at this time, giving him half the writing credit for this song if he likes it and allows it to go forward or is that presumptuous of me? Ethically he should have his name on it unless he is opposed to being associated with Praise Gospel music.
My hope in a best case is he likes likes the 50% writing credit and knows someone in the Praise Gospel area that would like to release it.:) Wyndham

Wyndam,

You will have to check with the manager, but I am pretty sure that YOU cannot claim any authorship of this. He would have to cut you in and I doubt very seriously that will happen. You would probably have to claim "interpretation" of a dirivative work, but I doubt you can claim any ownership whatsoever in that song.

You could see the problems. What if people just suddenly wanted to change Beatles songs or Springsteen, etc. and suddenly say they "wrote these songs" with them. You didn't do that. You weren't asked, you weren't included, you weren't there at the inset of that song, you are not really a writer on it at all. You are just a guy who liked the song and wanted to change it to your liking. It is actually fairly insulting. You are saying "hey your version is okay and all, but I HAVE the REAL version the way the song SHOULD GO." And asking for any credit would probably stop them from allowing you to make any changes.

This is that "grey area" I was talking about. If you were allowed to do that, anybody could just do anything they want on anything, that violates all copyright and etiquette rules. You will not have any writing credit at all other than an interpretation, and you could not collect publishing or any other revenue outside of your performance royalties. You actually would be paying ALL publishing royalties to them. As well as paying up front licencing fees to them. It's going to cost you money, no matter how you look at it. And most people just don't go with the "But it's God's will" excuse. Give God your prayers. Give the writers and publishers cash.

Again, I don't really know why you would want to do this. It is just going in a direction that is fraught with so many problems it is an accident just waiting to happen. It is another one of those things publishers have to deal with all the time, and why the only people that really make money in music are the attorneys.

I wish you luck, but if you were to ask me the same thing about one of my songs, my answer would most definatley be "NO." No matter how good your intentions, in my opinion, you just can't go around making changes to other people's works and expect to be accepted doing that.

MAB

I read another part of your post and just had to laugh.

"My hope in a best case is he likes likes the 50% writing credit and knows someone in the Praise Gospel area that would like to release it.:) Wyndham"

Wow. That is quite a statement. You are "allowing a guy who doesn't know you, and never asked you to do anything on HIS song, to have HALF the writing credit on his own song and then hope he knows someone in the "Praise and Worship" genre to get it cut.

Why didn't you just let them know how big a favor you are giving them by allowing them to pitch and promote your version of their song? Very nice of you.

Sorry man, but I hope you can see how ridiculous that all sounds. Again, I go back, what if someone took one of your praise and worship songs and wrote all about porno, racist, or secular stuff you didn't agree with at all, and then offered to let you have HALF of your song if YOU can sell it for them.

I don't think you have really thought this through. But I will admit, it is an approach I have never thought of. LOL!
Good luck with it, however it turns out.

MAB

Plagiarism for the most part. The lawyers are waiting patiently to see how far this goes before banging him.

Actually Ric, that is truer than you know. They can REFUSE permission, and most of the time, except in the case of a parody they will say no. It's really just a case of ownership of creative content.

One of the things that has INFURIATED me is Rap and Hip hop artists, not just stealing songs from other people, but taking the ACTUAL tracks, and putting their lyrics (if that is what you want to call them) and putting their OWN on them. And nine times out of ten, the original owners have had to spend thousands of dollars and years in court to get them to pay up. They see nothing wrong with it.

A thing happened a couple of years ago with an artist named FRANK OCEAN, who sampled the entire tracks and everything of HOTEL CALIFORNIA. He just put this whole curse filled lyrics up on the song and released it as his own. Didn't even credit Henely or Frey.

Someone brought it to the attention of Don Henley, who wrote a very nice letter, letting Ocean know that while Henely was appreciative of artistic freedom and creativity, it was actually ILLEGAL to take existing songs and just appropriate them for someone else's benefit.

Ocean basically told him to "go screw himself."

That began a back and forth legal action and finally Irv Woolsey, had to get a cease and desist order to stop Frank Ocean. But by that time, there had been over 800,000 downloads of the song. Don't know how much money it was, I can't imagine his audience pay for anything, but having an "alternative version" out there was not a good deal for Henely and Frey.

And to me, that is the issue here. Legal issues aside, I just get a very bad feeling overall when anyone takes ANYONE'S creative work for their own. I just don't get it. But it is just one more issue as to why people seem to be devaluing ALL creative work. They appropriate songs for their videos and slideshows. They post their own camera phone videos of them doing cover versions of songs and pay nothing for licencing. It is just a "free for all, take what you want, use it however you want." world.

I do understand the desire to contribute and have your own version of things. But there are ways to do it, and ways NOT to do it. In my opinion, I don't think this is quite the way.

But that is just me.

MAB

The more I think about this, the more nightmare senarios I have been thinking about. One in particular happened to two friends of mine, who are originally from Los Angeles, but have been in Nashville for many years. They are teachers and have written books on songwriting.

In the 70's they had a cut on an artist named BOBBY WOMACK. Bobby was one of the soul singers of that day in the Lou Rawls, Curtis Mayfield variety, and had a nice little Soul career for a while.

Many years later, after my friends had moved here, one day her daughter, who still lives in LA, called them up. She had been driving and heard that Lou Rawls song. It was the tracks, music, drums, everything, except it had all these rap lyrics on it. She was kind of shocked and asked if they had licenced the song to somebody.

They said, no and had not heard anything. They came to find out it was the rap artist SNOOP DOG, who had appropriated the Lou Rawls song which he always liked, for his own. He put his own lyrics on it, and released it. He made quite a deal of money on it.
When my friends contacted their publisher and Snoop Dog, he basically gave the standard Rap rap. "Screw yourself.." He refuse to acknowledge them, the original song and wasn't going to pay a dime. It took them years in court and legal fees before they ever got anything.

At the same time, Weird Al Yankovic, did a parody version of Coolio's "GANGSTA'S PARADISE" into Weird Al's "Amish Paradise." Even though Al had paid all the licencing fees, and gotten permission from Coolio's publisher, Coolio tried to sue Weird Al to keep him from releasing the parody song.

I guess double standards run pretty deep in that world.

MAB

Ok Marc, I'm a naive critter I'll readily admit that.Plagiarism, not hardly as I'm asking the writer to consider another use for the melody, for him to financially benefit. I'm not publishing anything, but it it has value to him, should I not be compensated? My purpose is to work within his framework not mine.
If I were to visit with you and you had a melody playing and the discussion came about that I said it sounds like a possible love song and you said yea I've thought that might be some thing to do with winter in Minnesota. I go home write the lyrics to the melody I remember and ask you to see if this might work in your melody. You like it and want to produce it, do I simply give you the lyrics?Is it plagiarism to do that or collaboration.The melody is copyright, the lyrics are also, so if the artist hears something worthy, maybe collaborate on an offshoot into another song.
How else can someone introduce themselves than getting out and doing it. There are 1,000's of people on this forum that want to participate some way in music.We have written many Gospel songs with our own lyrics and melody, I just happen to hear this the other day and hear something different and went to the artist to ask permission.

"Why didn't you just let them know how big a favor you are giving them by allowing them to pitch and promote your version of their song? Very nice of you."

Because if it is good they make money,you said "it's all about the money "
Just because no one knows me or my wife in the music biz doesn't mean that our work is not worthy and has no value.

If Michael doesn't want or like what we've done a simple thanks but no thanks stops this at that point.
Wyndham

Wyndham,

I have no doubt your intentions are honorable. The "Plagarism" charge is a bit strong. Ric had mentioned that. I was just responding to him, but also listing actual examples of things that have happened in the not too distant past.

The problem that you have with your example of "visiting" and sitting around with a melody going" is flawed because that is a co-write on a song. What you are talking about is APPROPRIATING an EXISTING SONG for your own uses.

By your OWN admission, this was an EXISTING SONG from the group BREWER AND SHIPLEY. The only song I remember from them was "ONE TOKE OVER THE LINE (SWEET JESUS), which tells me that they already had kind of a handle on the Praise and Worship thing and if they wanted it to be that kind of song they would have already done it.

But you are talking about taking an existing song, and writing your own lyrics, your own theme, your own version of a song that has already been released commercially.

If you get their permission, it is fine. But to me, for you, unasked for, to insert yourself into someone ELSE'S song, seems to be a pretty arrogant thing to do. It would be different if you were a friend of their's, had known them for years or currently wrote with them. Or most importantly, IF THEY HAD ASKED YOU TO DO IT. That is a DIFFERENT ANIMAL. From what you are telling us here, that has not happened.

As for making money, most songs don't. So offering someone to "be able to make money" off of something, is a pretty rare occurance. I am sure if you were Steven Curtis Chapman, or some other monster Christian act, it would be a different ballgame. But to my knowledge, you are not that. I could be wrong, and don't want to disparage your reputation. I am sure you are just fine and maybe it could make some money. But I would have to see it do that first before I would sign off on it.

Most every artist or writer who has ever had a hit record, been on the radio, or in the public eye, has had someone tell them how they ought to write their songs, or what is missing on their song in their own opinion. It happens to me a great deal. Sometimes it is flattering, but most time you just wish they would go write their own.

I have had a few people want to do very similar things on songs of mine. One artist even wanted to record one, yet make some really big changes on the song, the melody and chord structure. I was just not willing to allow that. Plus, my co-writer, who has had some very big hits, would IN NO WAY sign off on it outside of a huge artist. That was our decision.

I hope this turns out the way you want it. I really do. I hope that they love your version and encourage you to run with it. But you do need to realize that YOU ARE APPROACHING THEM. They did not approach YOU. That is the difference in what you are stating and reality.

MAB

I fully understand your explanations and grant that this is the way things work. I really wont carry this thread much further as it opens no new ground to benefit anyone.
I have people tell me many times how to make my pottery,what color I should us, etc. About 5% of those folks have worthwhile ideas that when implemented, makes me more money. Even though the general public has no idea the how and why of clay, they express a mood in the marketplace of things needed, trends in colors, decorating, and so forth. Timing is everything,so opportunity can be a door no one knocked on, but there maybe a tiger behind the door.
Thanks for the exchange. Wyndham

Hope you get what you want. Let us know how it goes.

will do one way or the other
Wyndham