Making Money In Music? Let's Get Real... - Just Plain Folks Music Organization Message Boards

Kind of an off-shoot of the thread titled "Okay, so how do I make money at this".

I've been thinking of music more in the business sense these days. I devote half my time to "merit" composing and half to "business" composing.

On several music library sites I've noticed many of the tracks on the "best selling" list are drones (or variations of drones). Usually not much more than synth pads and effects. I can understand their popularity. The sound quality is great and the drones set desirable and variable moods for film scenes.

These drones fall into the "business" composing. Not much musical merit. Although they're fun to make, it has more to do with technology than music.

I can knock off a dozen of these drones in two days (I did this week), where one piano solo may take me two days alone to complete.

So I think it's wise today to give equal time to both business and merit. "Merit" is what got me into music and what keeps me chuggin' along. Business? Well, a necessary evil? Can't answer that. All I know is when you're in business you've got to give the customer what they want.

Selling out, or buying in? Hmm... Haven't thought that far ahead.

Here's one of the 12 drone-like tracks I made this week.

Outer Space Drone
http://schicksville.com/Music/Outer%20Space%20Drone.mp3

John,

You have that pretty much right. The basic problem I have with the business model is that if you can knock of a dozen of these types songs in a short period, so can the filmakers and their friends themselves. it is exactly why I have great skeptism in the entire "Film placement" idea in the first place. AS inside as all music is, I can't see any "musical outsourcing" whatsoever.

I mentioned this to a very high placed ASCAP official yesterday, who basically had the exact same take on it. Kind of a grin, wink and a nod. I keep hearing about these film and TV placements but know of very few people without a specific inside contact with music directors actually doing it.

I'm sure there are exceptions but for my money I have a lot of doubts as to success rates in these directions.

Just my opinion.

MAB

Hey Marc! Always enjoy you postings.

I was talking with a film producer I met through FMN yesterday. He liked my piano/string tracks, but said it didn't quite fit the scene. Oh well, sometimes it fits, sometimes not. Then again, every contact is a potential future gig.

Anyway, he told me he was good at directing and script writing, but had no talent at all in the music end. Thus, why he seeks out "cut and paste" music from libraries. I�m sure some film producers can knock off 12 tracks as easy as me, but some can�t. And for them to use established composers within their circle, that could get very expensive for that one scene that still needs music. That�s where �Johnny the Crumb Boy� comes to the rescue.

I agree it's very unlikely (if not impossible) to get those "big" scoring gigs through music libraries, but TV and film need an ever increasing amount of music and often it is easier (and cheaper) for them to go the music library route.

Best, John

John,

There is always exceptions and like a phrase I heard on songwriting yesterday when it comes to songs on the radio that break all the rules: "If it works, it works. There are no rules."

I don't ever want to disuade anyone from exploring every avenue they can when it comes to music. And if they have that desire, that is where the need to try it. A blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and then.

My own suggestions on what you are talking about is that writers should be prepared for anything. If you are good at writing snippets. Write em'and get them in as many avenues as you can.

If you have really great songs, get great demos. And always get a music only track on this so you can have a multiple pitch opportunities.Songs can always be cut down so if you have the basic tracks to start with, you have it on the way.

My first cut on Shelby Lynne was in a TV movie. The song fit exactly what they needed for the scene. At the time, Shelby was having her first album (yes,back in THOSE days) and CBS, her record label, were promoting that. At the same time, they were using the television movie "Another Pair of Aces" starring Willie Nelson and Kris Kristofferson, to launch her as an artist.

The scene needed a song with a slow dramatic intro, then kicked into a two stepping honky tonker. There would be some dialogue over the first part, as the characters talked over the action, which was a Texas Ranger (Kristofferson) and a reformed outlaw (Guess who) and how to catch a villan. There was the atypical hot babe love interest and both Willie and Kris would two step with her.

Wow. My song, THAT'S WHERE IT HURTS" just happened to have an extended intro, a kicking two step honky tonk beat and chance to sing all over the place for a big voiced singer. Wow. Imagine that. LOL!

So it all worked. But it helped that I had a great sounding demo, all the parts hit the right moments, it fit the scene AND the network was CBS, which owned a stake in the publishing company, TREE. Later both were bought out by SONY.

So it can work in a variety of ways. And I applaud yours and anyone's efforts in any way. We just always have to make sure we stand up to the challenge any time we get a chance.

Remember, LUCK is where OPPORTUNITY and PREPARATION meet.

MAB

I agree about exceptions Marc.

In fact, in todays Music Industry there seems to be an abundance of exceptions. Composers with music libraries are finding many lucrative placements on TV, film, commercials, etc. Technology has opened up many opportunities for musicians living far from where the action is.

Here's a list of credits for one such library (and there are hundreds of these libraries). There has never been a need for music more than there is today.

John

Just placements for one of many libraries:

Weekly Television Series - 10 Things I Hate About You � 3 LBS � 30 Rock � A Side Order of Life � Alias � American Dad � America's Funniest Videos � America's Got Talent � Army Wives � Big Bang Theory � Blue Mountain State � Boston Legal � Breaking Bad � Brothers & Sisters � Burn Notice � Californication � Cashmere Mafia � Castle � Cheerleader Nation � Classical Baby (HBO) � Close To Home � Cold Case � Cougar Town � Criminal Minds � CSI � CSI New York � Cupid � Damages � Dance In America: Beyond the Steps � Dark Blue � Dexter � Dirt � Dirty Sexy Money � Dresden Files � Eastwick � Ed � Eleventh Hour � Eli Stone � Emily's Reasons Why Not � Entertainment Tonight � Entourage � Everybody Loves Raymond � Everybody Hates Chris � Fear Itself � Felicity (Season 3 & Season 4 DVD) � Flash Forward � Flash Gordon � Friday Night Lights � Fringe � Ghost Whisperer � Greek � Happy Hour � Harper's Island � Heroes � High Society � House � How I Met Your Mother � In Plain Sight � In The Motherhood � Jimmy Kimmell � Judging Amy � Kath & Kim � Kevin Hill � Kings � Kyle XY � Lie To Me � Life � Life Is Wild � Life Unexpected � Lincoln Heights � Lipstick Jungle � Love Monkey � Lovespring International � Malcolm In The Middle � Make It Or Break It � Melrose Place � Men In Trees � Men of A Certain Age � Mercy � Monk � Moonlight � My Own Worst Enemy � New Adventures of Old Christine � New Amsterdam � NCIS LA � Notes from the Underbelly � Out of Jimmy's Head � Painkiller Jane � Parenthood � Parks and Recreation � Past Life � Passions � Prison Break � Privileged � Psych � Quarterlife � Raising The Bar � Reaper � Robson Arms � Royal Pains � Samantha Who? � Saved � Saving Grace � Scrubs (Season 3 DVD) � Shark � Six Feet Under � Sleeper Cell � Smallville � Sons of Anarchy � South Beach � Standoff � Swingtown � Tell Tale � The Cleaner � The Dollhouse (DVD) � The Ex List � The Forgotten � The Insider � The Loop � The Lost Room � The Mentalist � The Nanny (DVD) � The Office � The Philanthropist � The PJs � The Simpsons � The Young & The Restless � Trauma � Three Rivers � True Blood � Ugly Betty � United States of Tara � Valentine � Vampire Diaries � Veronica Mars � Wayside � Weeds � Wildfire � Will & Grace � Witchblade (DVD) � Woman's Murder Club

Television Movies & Specials - Acceptance � Dynasty: The Making of a Guilty Pleasure � Dirty Driving: Thundercars of Indiana � Good Fences � Good Hair � Great American Christmas � High Noon � Heart of a Stranger � Hitler and I: Reflections on Evil � H.I.T aka To Love and Die in LA � Knights of the South Bronx � Maneater � Masters of Horror: Chocolate � Masters of Horror: Fair-Haired Child � Masters of Horror (Season 2): Family � Masters of Horror (Season 2): Pelts � Masters of Horror (Season 2): Right To Die � Masters of Horror (Season 2): The Screwfly Solution � Masters of Horror (Season 2): The V Word � Masters of Science Fiction: Jerry Was A Man � Megasnake � Midnight Bayou � Picture This � Playing For Keeps � Scott Turrow's Reversible Errors � See Jane Date � Seven Deadly Sins � Snow 2: Brain Freeze � Staircase Murders � The Company � The Cutting Edge: Chasing the Dream � The Gathering � The Grid � The Quest for the Holy Grail � Vampire Bats

Films - 21 � A Single Man � Accidental Husband � Adventureland � After.life � American Pie Presents Beta House � American Violet � Amreeka � Another Gay Movie � Another Gay Sequel � Baby Mama � Bait � Ball's Out � Being Michael Madsen � Bratz: The Movie � Brokeback Mountain � Bottleworld � Buried Alive � Capitalism: A Love Story � Caravan Prague � Chop Shop � Cleaner � Cloverfield � Cop Out � Dance Flick � Dance of the Dead � Dark Country � Date Night � Dead Like Me � Disaster � Dylan Dog: Dead of Night � Echo � Edison & Leo � Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer � Farce of the Penguins � Fighting � Frankenhood � Funny Money � Get Smart � Getting It � God Grew Tired of Us � Hard Cash � Horton Hears A Who! � Hot Rod � I Hate Valentine's Day � I Hope They Serve Beer In Hell � I Love You Phillip Morris � I Think I Love My Wife � Inconceivable � Janky Promoters � Ladron Que Roba Ladron � Land of the Dead � Last Night � Legally Blondes � Legion � Little Man � Living Hell � Letters to Juliet � Love Hurts � Mad Money � Material Girls � Meet Bill � Meet Dave � Mission Impossible 3 � Mr. Woodcock � My Best Friend's Girl � Nancy Drew � Nearing Grace � New York City Serenade � Nights In Rodanthe � Not Forgotten � Numb � Observe & Report � Obsessed � Oceans 12 � Old Dogs � Personal Effects � Phoebe In Wonderland � Project Greenlight: Battle of Shaker Heights � Radiant City � Randy and the Mob � Redline � Reservation Road � Sex & The City � Sex Drive � Shoot the Hero � Short Track � Shutter � Solitary Man � Solo � Soul Men � Spring Breakdown � Step Up 2 � Stiletto � Street Fighter � Strays � Suburban Girl � Sydney White � Texas Chainsaw Massacre: The Beginning � The Air I Breathe � The Assistants � The Beautiful Ordinary � The Blind Side � The Boy In The Box � The Box � The Cinderella Pact � The Day The Earth Stood Still � The Dying Gaul � The Extra Man � The Final Destination � The Holiday � The House Bunny � The Last Lullaby � The Man from Plains Documentary � The Oh in Ohio � The Open Road � The Proposal � The Quest for the Holy Grail � The Road � The Ruins � The Slammin' Salmon � The Trouble With Romance � The Women � The Yellow Handkerchief � This Christmas � Thomas Kinkade's Home for Christmas � Trainwreck � Transylmania � Weiners � When In Rome � White Chicks � Year One � Zack & Miri Make A Porno

Commercials - American Express � Bella & Birch Infomercial � Dairy Queen Radio � DKNY � Gap 19.99 Jeans Sale Spot � Gap Kids Radio Summer Value Spot � Gap Rada Jeans Spot � Gorton's Shrimp Temptations � New York City Ballet � Nike/Jordan "V Game" � Royal Caribbean � Sizzler � Toyota Camry � Toyota Prius � United Way of Greater Los Angeles

Video Games - Grand Theft Auto (Playstation, PSP) � Grand Theft Auto 4 � The Sopranos � Wheelman

Other - AP Entertainment Fall News Reel � Beyond the Call Preview Trailer � Caroline In The City Season 1 DVD � Daffy's Internet Viral Video � Dish Dogz Preview Trailer � Employee Pick of the Week Promo � Firehouse Dog Preview Trailer � Fit & Fab Exercise Video � Kingdoms of Grace Online Webisode Series � Live Free or Die Hard Preview Trailer � Looking for Eric Preview Trailer � Middle Men DVD Featurettes � NBC Promos � Night at the Museum 2: Battle of the Smithsonian DVD � Physique 57 DVD � Redline Preview Trailer � Southbound (short film) � The Rocker Podcast � Weeds Season 4 DVD Preview Trailer � X-Files: I Want To Believe DVD

Networks and Studios - ABC � CBS � CW � Fox � HBO � Lifetime � Lion's Gate � NBC � Paramount Pictures � Paramount Television � Showtime � Sony Television � Sony Pictures � The Weinstein Company � Touchstone � Universal Pictures � Warner Brothers Features � Warner Brothers Television

I know a few people at TAXI who are exceptionally good at this kind of thing. They'll be the first to tell you not to quit your day job. If you get known and are very good at producing a broadcast quality product in a very short timeframe, you might find yourself getting more work. One of them is now making about 50k a year this way.

But again, it's not easy, and it has a lot to do with establishing yourself. The longer you do such work, the closer you get to insider status.

I honestly wouldn't suggest anyone put all their eggs into a basket like that. You really need an income BEFORE you go down a path like this...

Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman

I know a few people at TAXI who are exceptionally good at this kind of thing. They'll be the first to tell you not to quit your day job. If you get known and are very good at producing a broadcast quality product in a very short timeframe, you might find yourself getting more work. One of them is now making about 50k a year this way.

But again, it's not easy, and it has a lot to do with establishing yourself. The longer you do such work, the closer you get to insider status.

I honestly wouldn't suggest anyone put all their eggs into a basket like that. You really need an income BEFORE you go down a path like this...

I agree Mark. It's only one of many egg baskets. I say spread your eggs like fertilizer - you never know where something may sprout up.

Also it's good to have a large variety of eggs.

Best, John

John

Great list, is this one libraries doing? or many different ones?

As for the whole "Tv/Film" placement thing. To me it's not some alternative to "not having a hit" It's in many cases BETTER. In other words you can have the number one song in America on June 1st 2010 whatever it even was and I'll take the theme from "Friends"

In a few weeks nobody will remember what that hit was and the way things are now in ten years nobody will know or care. But the theme for that show will play & pay for a long long time.
10 seasons, then re-runs, on FOUR channels 3X a day.
Then the DVD box sets....

Ah so where is Ricki Martin again??

Okay not everybody can be so lucky to have the royalties of
Friends, The Sopranos, Star Trek etc...
But it is no second hand choice to have anything like that going on "musically or career wise"

I have done work from practically every angle you can in this crazy game. Shooting for film & TV was never my goal or intention. It is a practical solution for what to do with my work. And the result of the business rules boxing you in and keeping you out.

Lets see what keeps us OUT. And so keep you out of "the money"

1- If your not YOUNG you can't be a star in popular music unless it's - you made it in when you were younger.
Your in on some gimmick, or some TV show thing.

2- If your not beautiful or at least not unattractive! Again aside from gimmicks or novelty or some built TV thing ie talent show!

3- *****If your a songwriter who writes like a singer/songwriter or band! ***** This is the most damaging!

4- So your a writer who writes contemporary Country or Teen pop like songs for boy bands and young pop girls. BUT everybody in the world wants this... Connections are a major major role here.
YOU have a family so moving around traveling is tough, BUT you don't get paid to write songs yet, SO how do you support everyone? You do something else... Oh but those writers with those Big hits they don't do anything else really. Maybe some gig
or some do whatever, but it ain't no clock punching union/goverment job that takes FULL TIME hours so they can have benefits for there families..

If they did that then they couldn't STAY awake never mind compete with all those hit writers. living music 20 hours a day.

How's that for REAL!

Lets see what can WE get in on.

1- TV/Film - Well, it used to be better in terms of less people focusing on it. What really sucks about it is..

A- Doesn't it make 100% sense for a major label to give Movies & TV songs from young acts and say.
"Hey kids" your song is going to be in the new Transformer movie or the show "Supernatural" this week. Go tell all your friends and everybody on your internet pages... And YOU dont get paid okay? It's MASSIVE publicity! It will help sell your CD..Oh you guys don't want to do it? Lets get somebody else?? That leaves us OUT!

I'm not saying they don't get royalties but that deal HAS got be made. It makes total business sense.

2- Okay under all this rader people like our own Joanne Lurgio,
Jody Whitesides, Sue Lainey and a number of others who are artists who struggle to break into the big show for varies reasons now have a place to be where there music can be.
Sue got "Nip Tuck" and almost got me it too...

3- Upside/Downside

Upside - Age, looks, style. None of it matters or works against you.
Did you ever HEAR the season one song for the hit show SHO "WEEDS" It's not about IMAGE!

Upside - You don't have to force your songs! You get to throw the rules out the window and you don't have to be so specific it's like your watching a movie on the lifetime channel. Not that that's a bad thing, but doing whatever YOU want at any given time is a better thing.

Upside - There's two thousand channels running 24/7 that use MUSIC

Downside - There's two thousand channels running 24/7 that use MUSIC

So nobody really cares about it too much It's become an after thought.It doesn't pay very much! in the overall smaller gigs, A movie I have FOUR songs in has been out on DVD for five years, it has been on the Lifetime channel. I have never received one cent for any of it. BMI id far more concerned with
REAL royalties from there BIG names. Just like any other business.

Really how well do you thing anyone can keep track of music 24/7 365!

You think I've studies these angles, do you want me to go on & on? lol

If this career means anything to you really! if your serious about it you MUST look at yourself and find your angle, how you fit. look at your life! your age, your situation for these are your biggest obstacles long before you get to a suit who just says NO forever & ever.

In any case make a decision on what matters most! Focus on something, BE or GET good, really good. No one can take that away from you.

I have figured out a few ways to do some things, but my health has taken the number one slot on my billboard chart

But when I finally beat that I will not talk anymore, I will just do..again.

If rock were alive today I'd say
Rock On!

Mike

Originally Posted by Mike Caro Substudio

Okay not everybody can be so lucky to have the royalties of
Friends, The Sopranos, Star Trek etc...

Upon his lawyer's recommendation, Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry actually wrote lyrics to the series' theme song. Although the lyrics were not used, they enabled Roddenberry to collect a share of the music's royalties.

John, this is something I grapple with regularly as well. I've written dozens of tracks with the express purpose of placement in production music libraries. I often sell these songs to the public as well, but generally speaking, I consider there to be a difference between them and the albums that I do "for fun" (even though I end up licensing those too.) Ultimately, it's important to do a mix of both. Your best work is the work you are most passionate about. On the other hand, you have to pay attention to the kinds of music people are looking for. For example, I noticed recently that Pump Audio was looking for instrumental hip hop. I've never written in that genre, but I went ahead and dove into it, researching tons of tracks and producing a whole CD of the stuff (which was promptly accepted!)

ROCK ON, MIKE!

Miss the pizza! Lol.

If it were me doing this today, I'd make songs for the following:

Meeting for the first time, being annoyed by someone, starting to fall in love with them, definiely in love, first fight, making up, fear of losing the person, the big breakup, the small breakup, the soul searching, the lonely road, the unexpected flirtation, could it be love again?, the former lover returns, the struggle to choose, the big goodbye, the big hello and of course, the happy ending.

That's most of the plot points to most of the ROM COMS that are made. I'd then do the same thing for all other major forms of movies, sci fi, horror, drama, mystery, comedy etc.

Play those songs and tweak them until you can play them for someone and they can tell you what is happening in the movie just from the way it sounds. Then you're on the right track. Next, I'd move from instrumental versions to lyric versions that cover the same ground. Once I had tested and tweaked them, then I'd start on Round 2 in a different genre style but which told the same story points.. over and over... before you know it you'll have a library collection of film music and you'll also have learned how to instinctually write to the needs of a script. You identify the plot point and then you write to it.

Then you'll be ready for success for film/tv/theater type work.

Brian

Great post, Brian! I love that life course list!

John, I wonder how much you get those easy drone like pieces placed? As Mike says, there ain't much money in tv/film music..

And music libraries are not just music libraries, if we look at the tracks the top ones has, the music is very vell composed and produced.

For example Extreme Music, witch is a go-to Hollywood library.. http://www.extrememusic.com/#newzplaylist/86

There you'll see very genre focused tracks, greatly produced, most as good as any record you'll find.

The trend here is not to get the occational track, but a full CD with broadcast quality genre focused tracks.

Not too rare these CD's comes from well known producers, whom may well have had very little to do with them, but put their name behind the production. Most music library owners are also composers themselves, so they look more for original music they can't come up with or produce themselves.

Thyat's what you're up against in the library music, if you want to be in the money, that is.

As hard as any Nashville pitch, networking seem to apply as much as anywhere else. Actually, I would take The MABs advice and use it directly on the tv/film market.

Sure there are libraries, who would take anything. But there you would get your music parked on a shelf, no money, no nothing.

I think it's a false impression that library music is "easy", and less "musical". You have to be as good as anyone to make it there, play like a pro and be very clear about your genres, because the folks with pro equipped studio's are in that game too, and they are not easy to push away from the bass!

The occational 'drone' tracks ect. are used of course, but the ones who get to make those are producers with placements and close contacts in the business. People who've earned their seat.

New writers just can't show up with that, and expect business.

Justmyviewfromoverseas, no cents involved :-)

I don't think it's any different than writing hit songs.

It's all an art, but mainly in the persistance of writing often, with variations on a theme. You need to be prolific and consistent. Then you need to be able to write on Q , to the drop of a hat..... for not much pay.

That's an impressive list of placements there John, but I think, quite miniscule in relation to the volume of music that is produced every week.

My opinion if I was to give it a shot seriously ? Be diverse, and follow up on the rejections. Get to know who the real players are and what they are after.

Oh, just had a thought..... kinda like writing hit songs.

cheers, niteshift

Originally Posted by Mike Caro Substudio

John

Great list, is this one libraries doing? or many different ones?

As for the whole "Tv/Film" placement thing. To me it's not some alternative to "not having a hit" It's in many cases BETTER. In other words you can have the number one song in America on June 1st 2010 whatever it even was and I'll take the theme from "Friends"

In a few weeks nobody will remember what that hit was and the way things are now in ten years nobody will know or care. But the theme for that show will play & pay for a long long time.
10 seasons, then re-runs, on FOUR channels 3X a day.
Then the DVD box sets....

Ah so where is Ricki Martin again??

Okay not everybody can be so lucky to have the royalties of
Friends, The Sopranos, Star Trek etc...
But it is no second hand choice to have anything like that going on "musically or career wise"

I have done work from practically every angle you can in this crazy game. Shooting for film & TV was never my goal or intention. It is a practical solution for what to do with my work. And the result of the business rules boxing you in and keeping you out.

Lets see what keeps us OUT. And so keep you out of "the money"

1- If your not YOUNG you can't be a star in popular music unless it's - you made it in when you were younger.
Your in on some gimmick, or some TV show thing.

2- If your not beautiful or at least not unattractive! Again aside from gimmicks or novelty or some built TV thing ie talent show!

3- *****If your a songwriter who writes like a singer/songwriter or band! ***** This is the most damaging!

4- So your a writer who writes contemporary Country or Teen pop like songs for boy bands and young pop girls. BUT everybody in the world wants this... Connections are a major major role here.
YOU have a family so moving around traveling is tough, BUT you don't get paid to write songs yet, SO how do you support everyone? You do something else... Oh but those writers with those Big hits they don't do anything else really. Maybe some gig
or some do whatever, but it ain't no clock punching union/goverment job that takes FULL TIME hours so they can have benefits for there families..

If they did that then they couldn't STAY awake never mind compete with all those hit writers. living music 20 hours a day.

How's that for REAL!

Lets see what can WE get in on.

1- TV/Film - Well, it used to be better in terms of less people focusing on it. What really sucks about it is..

A- Doesn't it make 100% sense for a major label to give Movies & TV songs from young acts and say.
"Hey kids" your song is going to be in the new Transformer movie or the show "Supernatural" this week. Go tell all your friends and everybody on your internet pages... And YOU dont get paid okay? It's MASSIVE publicity! It will help sell your CD..Oh you guys don't want to do it? Lets get somebody else?? That leaves us OUT!

I'm not saying they don't get royalties but that deal HAS got be made. It makes total business sense.

2- Okay under all this rader people like our own Joanne Lurgio,
Jody Whitesides, Sue Lainey and a number of others who are artists who struggle to break into the big show for varies reasons now have a place to be where there music can be.
Sue got "Nip Tuck" and almost got me it too...

3- Upside/Downside

Upside - Age, looks, style. None of it matters or works against you.
Did you ever HEAR the season one song for the hit show SHO "WEEDS" It's not about IMAGE!

Upside - You don't have to force your songs! You get to throw the rules out the window and you don't have to be so specific it's like your watching a movie on the lifetime channel. Not that that's a bad thing, but doing whatever YOU want at any given time is a better thing.

Upside - There's two thousand channels running 24/7 that use MUSIC

Downside - There's two thousand channels running 24/7 that use MUSIC

So nobody really cares about it too much It's become an after thought.It doesn't pay very much! in the overall smaller gigs, A movie I have FOUR songs in has been out on DVD for five years, it has been on the Lifetime channel. I have never received one cent for any of it. BMI id far more concerned with
REAL royalties from there BIG names. Just like any other business.

Really how well do you thing anyone can keep track of music 24/7 365!

You think I've studies these angles, do you want me to go on & on? lol

If this career means anything to you really! if your serious about it you MUST look at yourself and find your angle, how you fit. look at your life! your age, your situation for these are your biggest obstacles long before you get to a suit who just says NO forever & ever.

In any case make a decision on what matters most! Focus on something, BE or GET good, really good. No one can take that away from you.

I have figured out a few ways to do some things, but my health has taken the number one slot on my billboard chart

But when I finally beat that I will not talk anymore, I will just do..again.

If rock were alive today I'd say
Rock On!Mike

Wow, a lot of interesting thoughts there Mike. That was just one library's credits. Many of the libraries have long lists like this one.

"There's two thousand channels running 24/7 that use MUSIC"- yes, a double edged sword. I agree that a large amount of music on TV will never be remembered by the audience, unless it's primetime theme music or for a Burger King commercial.

As far as not getting PRO royalties, yes that happens a lot. Sometimes cue sheets are neglected or the library fails to register tracks on time with your PRO. Both have happened to me.

Thanks for giving me more to think about Mike. The bottom line is I love doing this. Yeah, embarrassingly so, even those drones were fun.

Best advice: �Rock On�!

Best, John

Originally Posted by Kevin Edward Rose

Originally Posted by Mike Caro Substudio

Okay not everybody can be so lucky to have the royalties of
Friends, The Sopranos, Star Trek etc...

Upon his lawyer's recommendation, Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry actually wrote lyrics to the series' theme song. Although the lyrics were not used, they enabled Roddenberry to collect a share of the music's royalties.

Never heard this before Kevin. Interesting.

John

Originally Posted by Andrew Aversa

John, this is something I grapple with regularly as well. I've written dozens of tracks with the express purpose of placement in production music libraries. I often sell these songs to the public as well, but generally speaking, I consider there to be a difference between them and the albums that I do "for fun" (even though I end up licensing those too.) Ultimately, it's important to do a mix of both. Your best work is the work you are most passionate about. On the other hand, you have to pay attention to the kinds of music people are looking for. For example, I noticed recently that Pump Audio was looking for instrumental hip hop. I've never written in that genre, but I went ahead and dove into it, researching tons of tracks and producing a whole CD of the stuff (which was promptly accepted!)

I agree with your "passion" comment. That's what it's all about. But you're right, on the other hand, it's important to cover the business end as well. Hip Hop? Hmm... Maybe a "Hip Hop drone.

John

Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney

If it were me doing this today, I'd make songs for the following:

Meeting for the first time, being annoyed by someone, starting to fall in love with them, definiely in love, first fight, making up, fear of losing the person, the big breakup, the small breakup, the soul searching, the lonely road, the unexpected flirtation, could it be love again?, the former lover returns, the struggle to choose, the big goodbye, the big hello and of course, the happy ending.

That's most of the plot points to most of the ROM COMS that are made. I'd then do the same thing for all other major forms of movies, sci fi, horror, drama, mystery, comedy etc.

Play those songs and tweak them until you can play them for someone and they can tell you what is happening in the movie just from the way it sounds. Then you're on the right track. Next, I'd move from instrumental versions to lyric versions that cover the same ground. Once I had tested and tweaked them, then I'd start on Round 2 in a different genre style but which told the same story points.. over and over... before you know it you'll have a library collection of film music and you'll also have learned how to instinctually write to the needs of a script. You identify the plot point and then you write to it.

Then you'll be ready for success for film/tv/theater type work.

Brian

Great list Brian! I'll make a copy for reference. The "sci fi, horror, drama, mystery" are my favorites, but I realize everything on your list should be covered as well.

Best, John

Originally Posted by the songcabinet

Great post, Brian! I love that life course list!

John, I wonder how much you get those easy drone like pieces placed? As Mike says, there ain't much money in tv/film music..

And music libraries are not just music libraries, if we look at the tracks the top ones has, the music is very vell composed and produced.

For example Extreme Music, witch is a go-to Hollywood library.. http://www.extrememusic.com/#newzplaylist/86

There you'll see very genre focused tracks, greatly produced, most as good as any record you'll find.

The trend here is not to get the occational track, but a full CD with broadcast quality genre focused tracks.

Not too rare these CD's comes from well known producers, whom may well have had very little to do with them, but put their name behind the production. Most music library owners are also composers themselves, so they look more for original music they can't come up with or produce themselves.

Thyat's what you're up against in the library music, if you want to be in the money, that is.

As hard as any Nashville pitch, networking seem to apply as much as anywhere else. Actually, I would take The MABs advice and use it directly on the tv/film market.

Sure there are libraries, who would take anything. But there you would get your music parked on a shelf, no money, no nothing.

I think it's a false impression that library music is "easy", and less "musical". You have to be as good as anyone to make it there, play like a pro and be very clear about your genres, because the folks with pro equipped studio's are in that game too, and they are not easy to push away from the bass!

The occational 'drone' tracks ect. are used of course, but the ones who get to make those are producers with placements and close contacts in the business. People who've earned their seat.

New writers just can't show up with that, and expect business.

Justmyviewfromoverseas, no cents involved :-)

Hey Magne! I'll let you know if I get any of my drones placed. It's just one more angle for me.

"there ain't much money in tv/film music"

It depends on the placement Magne. Background on a reality show, no so good. A McDonald's commercial - big bucks. Primetime TV pays much better than off-hour shows.

"The occational 'drone' tracks ect. are used of course, but the ones who get to make those are producers with placements and close contacts in the business"

There's such an abundance of music needed today, that the "in crowd" just can't handle it all.

"because the folks with pro equipped studio's are in that game too"

Fortunately the technological revolution has evened things up. Home studios are competing side by side with pro studios. Maybe should use the term "Pro Home Studios".

"I think it's a false impression that library music is "easy", and less "musical"

Not easy at all Magne. It's a jungle out there.

Best, John

Originally Posted by niteshift

I don't think it's any different than writing hit songs.

It's all an art, but mainly in the persistance of writing often, with variations on a theme. You need to be prolific and consistent. Then you need to be able to write on Q , to the drop of a hat..... for not much pay.

That's an impressive list of placements there John, but I think, quite miniscule in relation to the volume of music that is produced every week.

My opinion if I was to give it a shot seriously ? Be diverse, and follow up on the rejections. Get to know who the real players are and what they are after.

Oh, just had a thought..... kinda like writing hit songs.

cheers, niteshift

I think you're right on the mark there Nite. Can't disagree with anything you said.

"I don't think it's any different than writing hit songs"

My dream is to write the next "hit" drone.

Best, John

Andrew, I also deal with the conundrum about balancing fun music with paying attention to what people look for... but how can I find out what Pump Audio is looking for? can you guide me where ?

I would appreciate, thank you!

Originally Posted by Ariel Kalma

Andrew, I also deal with the conundrum about balancing fun music with paying attention to what people look for... but how can I find out what Pump Audio is looking for? can you guide me where ?

I would appreciate, thank you!

Hi Ariel! Pump Audio has a list of the type music they're looking for on their website: http://www.pumpaudio.com/artists/

Best, John

Ariel,

The most important thing you can ever do for your career is write a LOT of different types of music. Most people who are publishers, producers, artists, music directors, etc. don't exactly ever know what they are looking for until they hear it.
So having a large catalogue that is well recorded and represented are always the best way to be prepared for anything.

MAB

Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick

"there ain't much money in tv/film music"

It depends on the placement Magne. Background on a reality show, no so good. A McDonald's commercial - big bucks. Primetime TV pays much better than off-hour shows.

True, the big hard to get commercials, can be as profitable as a number one hit in Nashville. Michael Laskow has used examples where unknown artists has gotten half a million $ for a commercial gig.

Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick

There's such an abundance of music needed today, that the "in crowd" just can't handle it all.

Well, the big difference is that the market for 'outside writers' is a hell of a lot bigger in tv/film music. Compared to the about 50 available spots a year for outside writers in Nashville, the demand in tv/film music is about 1000 tracks a day! (and some of those instrumentals can even pay back more to you, than a cut on an album that doesn't sell!).

Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick

"because the folks with pro equipped studio's are in that game too"

Fortunately the technological revolution has evened things up. Home studios are competing side by side with pro studios. Maybe should use the term "Pro Home Studios".

Well, true if you are great at producing. And sure the sampled stuff is better now ect, but I believe the top music libraries still wants real musicians playing real instruments, and competing with the pro studio's on that, is gd tough!

But nothing really new under the sun. You gotta be good, you gotta network, you gotta be prolific and you gotta be patient, persistant.. well, you know, just name all the positive qualities you can, and you'll need'em

Originally Posted by Marc Barnette

Ariel,

The most important thing you can ever do for your career is write a LOT of different types of music. Most people who are publishers, producers, artists, music directors, etc. don't exactly ever know what they are looking for until they hear it.
So having a large catalogue that is well recorded and represented are always the best way to be prepared for anything.

MAB

When it comes to film/TV this is the best way to approach it.
Also works for ANY musical endeavor or goal.

Back in the early 2000's I decided that since getting a major label to take a song was so impossible, AND also writing some of the silliness that they require was so difficult, I needed other options. TV/Film is that option even though it's very difficult and requires even MORE work in many cases.

You can write the lyrics only - And have a big hit, have ZERO to do with anything else,get rich and those lyrics can be something like.

I love you
I honestly love you
Yes I do
I love you
It's true I love.

Or you can, write and co-write the lyrics,melody,musical changes,
perform, produce, record, yourself and pitch AS IS...

That catalog does not need to be 500 hundred so so songs,
It needs a few really really good ones, cool ones.
Ones that fit a hundred different scenes in a hundred different films.

It just requires more work, more time, more money,more commitment than anything else. More than even a songwriter with a pen needs. You are doing EVERYBODY"S job, and you have to make it feel like you hired everybody to do it, or actually hire them.

I can spend up to six months or more just trying to find the perfect singer for my song. Many times I can't, so I do it myself or take the best of what's available to me at the time.
Now after all that, I have a product for Film, TV any publisher any label. It's all covered. Even the star who may do the song is gonna think "I'm supposed to do this better"?

Doing the best work you can, even if it's a little catalog is the best thing you can do for yourself, and the only thing that's
"IN YOUR HANDS"!

Best of Luck!

Thank you John, good one to know! I have several albums on Pump Audio's shelves but never saw what they look for!!

Excellent advise, thank you!

So in terms of Real Estate they would say "Location, Location, Location"

And in terms of music we would say "Quality, Quality, Quality"

,,, makes sense,,,

I go back to work...

Thanks John, good advise...

I have been flirting with various types of music but not involving myself too deep fearing it would influence my "own style".

Now I realize that good stuff comes in any style... we just have to make it well.

Once again, truth is not obvious...

"Well, true if you are great at producing. And sure the sampled stuff is better now ect, but I believe the top music libraries still wants real musicians playing real instruments, and competing with the pro studio's on that, is gd tough!"

Some may want conventional instruments Magne (especially guitar, sax, etc), but most the libraries I've researched (or used) have mostly digital orchestras or a mix of both conventional and digital in their catalogs. It's not uncommon to add a few conventional instruments to a digital orchestra mix. One exception is using "real" rock bands to create tracks. I hear a large supply of those. I won't mess with the rockers!

Probably the biggest library sellers are the electronic tracks. I hear these on TV shows all the time. Some libraries like "Crucial Music" use a lot of songs.

Also, creating conventional orchestral tracks is too expensive to expect a library to recoup the overhead. I have seen some conductors of large orchestras submit tracks to libraries, but they're the exception.

Also, there are many digital atmospheres that conventional orchestras can't capture. I think the best tracks are the ones that use both conventional and digital instrumentation. So many films today go that route.

As far as "real" goes, I think digital orchestral music is "real". A computer doesn't create my tracks. I play every track myself (in real time) - and I'm a real person.

I'm now thinking of the tough sell the electric guitar had when it first made its appearance.

One more thing to consider; a conventional orchestra with great players is awesome, one with mediocre musicians a let down. Not many composers can afford great musicians (or have them available) to enhance their tracks, thus, why digital orchestras are here to stay.

I've heard poor dynamic-less tracks played by "real" orchestras and ass-kickin' aewsome tracks played by digital orchestras - and vice versa.

I think I may have went beyond your quote Magne.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

Best, John

I will second your comments Mr Schick.

Magne, everything you hear on mass media is sampled. It doesn't mean that it's not played by a real player. The real player has layed down the sample, and the composer uses and manipulates that sample to reproduce the orchestra.

Real orchestra in a score on a blockbuster ? It's rare. And when it's "real" it's only 50% real, with the other instrumentation being synthetic. That's what gives it punch.

What is real these days anyway ? I'm sure I, me, myself, is just a little cyber-bot.

cheers, niteshift

OK... that's very inaccurate. All blockbusters use live orchestra primarily, with some sampled orch mixed in. Even most major video games use a lot of live instruments. I worked on a soundtrack recently that had a pretty small budget as far as the game world goes yet we have live performers all over the place (it's not an orchestral soundtrack, but still.)

Sampled orchestras are fine but really, all the major scores are live. Trust me

Yes Andrew, you're quite correct. But have you considered post production ?

If you've ever tried to mic an orchstra, you simply can't get the depth of presence that is required on film these days.

cheers, niteshift

My bad, I wasn't trying to fuel more petrol on the ole 'real' vs 'artificial' truck. I've just learned that music supervisors often like an ORGANIC feel to the tracks.

While many samples gets better these days, they still are a budget solution in most cases ('digital atmospheres' of course being a very good counter example, John), and they don't quite capture the complexities and depth of 'real' (in the meaning.. 'organic') instruments.

Therefore, like you also say, a piano track, a sax track ect. blended with the midi tracks often can provide all the 'organic' vibe they'll need.

That way, I think the 'real' world and the 'reel' world are not so far apart. That basically was my simple point.

In approaching this, the key is to consider what the buyer wants - not what you think the buyer should want.

Tom

Hey Magne, yeah, I understand what you're saying. I didn't mean to turn this into a "real vrs. artificial" debate. Though it can't be helped when discussing film music. For the record (IMO) - conventional orchestras use real instruments and real players, digital orchestras use real instruments and real players. The synthesizer is a "real instrument. It's kind of a hybrid organ and much more.

Okay, I'll try to get back on the actual topic. What was it now?

Best, John

Originally Posted by Tom Shea

In approaching this, the key is to consider what the buyer wants - not what you think the buyer should want.

Tom

For sure Tom. Just like any other business.

Best, John

Originally Posted by Andrew Aversa

OK... that's very inaccurate. All blockbusters use live orchestra primarily, with some sampled orch mixed in. Even most major video games use a lot of live instruments. I worked on a soundtrack recently that had a pretty small budget as far as the game world goes yet we have live performers all over the place (it's not an orchestral soundtrack, but still.)

Sampled orchestras are fine but really, all the major scores are live. Trust me

Hey Andrew!

I wasn't necessarily discussing Hollywood Blockbusters with 80 million dollar budgets. Though a lot of these are using Electronica in their soundtracks. Yes, in that arena it's a mix of conventional & digital. May as well get the best of both worlds.

John

Originally Posted by niteshift

I will second your comments Mr Schick.

Magne, everything you hear on mass media is sampled. It doesn't mean that it's not played by a real player. The real player has layed down the sample, and the composer uses and manipulates that sample to reproduce the orchestra.

Real orchestra in a score on a blockbuster ? It's rare. And when it's "real" it's only 50% real, with the other instrumentation being synthetic. That's what gives it punch.

What is real these days anyway ? I'm sure I, me, myself, is just a little cyber-bot.

cheers, niteshift

I agree with this completely Nite. It would be great if there were a website that discusses the making of soundtracks for those blockbusters. Googled but couldn't find one. I'll keep looking.

John

"That catalog does not need to be 500 hundred so so songs,
It needs a few really really good ones, cool ones.
Ones that fit a hundred different scenes in a hundred different films" - Mike

That's one of the problems of libraries. Some composers are submitting as many as a thousand tracks to one library. It's easy for that one special track to get lost in the chaos.

I started placing my extra tracks on Audio Sparx. They have over 400,000 tracks in their library (not exactly a library).

John

Yes yes samples and presets are all over the place.

But regardless of what you use or choose it still takes a "knack" for commercials and instrumentals that suit film & TV.
John Schick has that knack.

I listen to the music on commercials and in shows and movies ALL the time. Many times I say to my wife, "What a catchy part, or sound or tune" Also I think to myself NICE programming, how very musical that simple piece was.

I appreciate the layering, also the sound in many cases. "Listen to that bass"
Most of the time it's sounds I can't get and things I don't really do, I appreciate things I don't do or don't do well.

Originally Posted by Mike Caro Substudio

Yes yes samples and presets are all over the place.

But regardless of what you use or choose it still takes a "knack" for commercials and instrumentals that suit film & TV.
John Schick has that knack.

I listen to the music on commercials and in shows and movies ALL the time. Many times I say to my wife, "What a catchy part, or sound or tune" Also I think to myself NICE programming, how very musical that simple piece was.

I appreciate the layering, also the sound in many cases. "Listen to that bass"
Most of the time it's sounds I can't get and things I don't really do, I appreciate things I don't do or don't do well.

Hey Mike,

The beauty in film/TV music is in its diversity. One library owner told me he had no idea of what's going to sell next. As long as it's broadcast quality it's in the running.

Hard-hitting guitar tracks seem to be popular in commercials. I'd love to be able to do a couple dozen of those. But they're out of my reach.

John

[/quote]

I agree with this completely Nite. It would be great if there were a website that discusses the making of soundtracks for those blockbusters. Googled but couldn't find one. I'll keep looking.

John

[/quote]

Hey John, there are a few DVD's around that include "the making of" as extras. One example I think I've used before is " The Invincibles", live orchestra onto 48 track tape, but even that is post enhanced. An old solution to a new high tech problem of 5.1 surround. ( Now 7.1 I think ? )

I've also noted, that almost all composers use MIDI mock up, until the score is done. Then in steps the orchestrator/conductor, to finish it off. I always thought it would be the same person, but not necessarily so. We live and learn.......

cheers, niteshift

Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick

Hard-hitting guitar tracks seem to be popular in commercials. I'd love to be able to do a couple dozen of those. But they're out of my reach.

John

Hey, we could team up for a couple of those? Sharing the workload..

Originally Posted by niteshift

[/quote]

Quote

I agree with this completely Nite. It would be great if there were a website that discusses the making of soundtracks for those blockbusters. Googled but couldn't find one. I'll keep looking.

John

Hey John, there are a few DVD's around that include "the making of" as extras. One example I think I've used before is " The Invincibles", live orchestra onto 48 track tape, but even that is post enhanced. An old solution to a new high tech problem of 5.1 surround. ( Now 7.1 I think ? )

I've also noted, that almost all composers use MIDI mock up, until the score is done. Then in steps the orchestrator/conductor, to finish it off. I always thought it would be the same person, but not necessarily so. We live and learn.......

cheers, niteshift

About the mock-ups Nite. I've been told that often the score has to be re-arranged for the orchestra, because what sounds good with a digital orchestra doesn't always work with the conventional one.

John

Originally Posted by the songcabinet

Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick

Hard-hitting guitar tracks seem to be popular in commercials. I'd love to be able to do a couple dozen of those. But they're out of my reach.

John

Hey, we could team up for a couple of those? Sharing the workload..

I'm afraid you'd have the lion's share of the workload Magne. I wouldn't be much help in that genre.

John

I keep hearing the same thing from artists and just heard of a new company that partnered with Youtube called Rumblefish. What they do is allow your tunes to appear in the AUDIOSWAP section of Youtube vids so anyone can use your song for their video. You then get royalties from this. I sent in 2 of my discs to see what would happen and in the past couple months had several hundred plays (which I got paid about $15 for).

This was my first check I received but I think this sort of thing is rad for musicians because it's recurring income. Just thought I'd pass it along. Their site is: http://musiclicensingstore.com/

Hey John,

Ya got a cyber-bot on your thread. Do you think it could be conned into signing us all up to make MONEY ?!

Yes, that's right little cyber-bot, please send your bank details to my email, and I'll send you some really RAD tunes in return.

Cool, I'm now a Nigerian millionare !

cheers, niteshift

Yikes!

Well.. if it's a bot, at least it's on topic.

Brian

Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney

Well.. if it's a bot, at least it's on topic.

Brian

Hmm... I didn't realize my topic was about the parasitic larva of a botfly.

John

I am not seeing the post you are referring to?

Brian

Just joking around Brian with the multiple meanings of the word "bot". I was on another thread where people were asking what "bot" means. One of the meanings was "a parasitic larva of a botfly".

Oh well, I guess I'll never be a stand-up comedian.

John

Yes I agree, drone or background music is not that difficult to do and is usually quite boring to listen to with-out the visual element present.
How-ever the original synth based bands from the 1970's ie Tangerine Dream, Jean Micheal Jarre, Vangelis and Kraftwerk produced very fine music that had no visuals, and is both exciting and interesting to listen to, not to mention atmospheric and sometimes quite emotional.
Today's synth music is a pale imitation of their music and they did not have the luxury of computers but were using analogue synths and a variety of hardware fx which were not easy to control or make recordings with.

Thanks for sharing your perspective.

I ain't makin' no money, but I sure am having FUN! For the first time in my 30 years in music, I'm FINALLY doing what I want to do and it feels so good every time! Been a "cheese band" whore for many years...now I'm doing music that really means something to me and shows off the talent of all of us in the band and there's not enough money in the world to compare to the feeling we get when we take the stage.

"Cheese band" whore"

I'm still a "music library" whore.

John

And the button pushing knob twiddler here , makes 3........

Any more takers ?

cheers, niteshift

I'm still a "music library" virgin, how do I get into this house of ill repute?
Wyndham

You simply have to place your scruples on the back-burner Wyndham.

John

Shouldn't a thread about film placements be titled "Let's Get Reel"?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

There is still money to be made in the music industry, although it's not as easy as it used to be. My business strategy is to try to provide what everyone is looking for -- the single -- and to think globally. The release of a single in even a small European country provides many revenue streams: radio airplay, video airplay, live performances, single sales, album sales, compilation sales, downloads, sync placements, other uses. Those Euros add up!

Mitch
www.myspace.com/splitpeasongs
Check out new song "If This Is Love" on the MP3 board!

Wyndom, Sign up and send your money. Put a song out there. They will find you.

MAB

They've found me in so many places & so many ways, I dare to count.
I doubt they're ready for Gospel Drone tracks for Toyoda or Burger King

Interesting thread, never know where this music stuff will lead.
Wyndham

Originally Posted by Wyndham

I'm still a "music library" virgin, how do I get into this house of ill repute?
Wyndham

Snap..... I never get emails from Africans wanting to give me money if I give them my bank details or people wanting to pitch my songs or make me millions.....I feel left out.

Wasn't that drone track a lil' on the busy side, John? ;-)

No, well, I think if you make real money from drone tracks, at least they are paying someone who can PLAY!

Even if it's the simple stuff that pays off (maybe because no one get's offended by it, the least worst music), they usually recruit people who has merit in other departments to do it. Then it's true they don't utilize ALL your talents (at least not at once)..

I don't think the Internet composer mobility really has changed that it's the good musicians who get's the job - or actually, maybe it has.. :-), as it's hard to believe all the good musicians actually lived in those hot spots - maybe moving to a music city was kind of a shortcut for those who could NOT compete locally?.. just a thought..

On a more practical side of this, if you choose one of the different music library brokers (I guess that might be the correct term) to make your tracks available to buyers, who makes sure to inform the PRO you're registered with, that the tracks or library have been sold to be used in ???. Does the music house/broker inform BMI or does the buyer inform BMI(or other)that track 8 is in CSI episode xxx.
Since it seems that the reporting time from possible purchase to money in hand can be quite long, how can the artist make sure they get the other performance monies now & later on.
Kinda curious how all this works
Wyndham

A mixed bag...

Most of my publishers follow through getting cue sheets (a few I have to watch).

John

John, do the publishers sell one time rights? It sounds like the buyers have to be top notch . Wyndham

Originally Posted by Wyndham

John, do the publishers sell one time rights? It sounds like the buyers have to be top notch . Wyndham

I'm sure you'll find all kinds of agreements with publishers. I'm in it for the long term with all of mine.

John