Numbers talk, BS walks:

On front page of songwriter forums as of 3/19/10, the average number of posts on an individual thread (excluding the Lady GG thread) was 13.4 posts/thread. The Lady GaGa thread has now generated 91 posts...far more than any other topic on the page.

You can love her or hate her, but we're sure the heck paying attention to her.

What else could she ask for?

Bill Renfrew
www.writethismusic.com

"You can love her or hate her, but we're sure the heck paying attention to her"
For mostly all the wrong reasons!

Did you count the off topic posts?

Ooooooo! Another Lady Gaga thread! Count me in!

She's currently getting sued for $35 million by her former boyfriend/producer, Rob Fusari. He claims that when they broke up, she pushed him away...but he invented her!

So, a little advice people: don't sleep with your proteges.

People often take interest in something current, and Lady GaGa is certainly a hot topic at the moment.

Just shows that JPF'ers are interested in current news topics, too

Lady who?

Now, if he wins the lawsuit, then maybe the opposite advice is in order.

Kevin

Did anyone watch American Idol last week? On kick-off night, they had three acts to fill-in the otherwise sparse agenda. One of those acts was a Ga Ga Imitator. She even had the ugly stuff around one eye and ran around all over the place twanging her strat... or whatever that ugly thing was. Man, Idol must be getting desperate. No talent... might as well just hire a doggone stripper... it would have been more interesting.

I didn't know what it really meant but I like your take on it. I just found it facinating.

Bill Renfrew
www.writethismusic.com

And those would be...?

Bill Renfrew
www.writethismusic.com

I just think it is a lot of talent showcased in all the wrong ways. Give me someone who lives by their talent and not selling it with gross displays. Give me someone like Carrie Underwood any day.

I agree. Personally, I can't stand her. If you have to be obscene to sell your music....

But someone said we're (JPF readers) are interested for the wrong reasons..

Bill Renfrew
www.writethismusic.com

It's like what has happened to most comedy, without a four letter word or sexual reference nothing seems funny to most people anymore. The funny thing is, I am not a prude, I just don't think it should be out there where children see and hear it everyday and take it as the way people should act.

To the naysayers....so she doesn't appeal to your demographic... does that mean she's no good, or not doing "it" in the right way???

Here are some numbers to consider

Combined, The Fame and The Fame Monster have sold 10 million albums worldwide, while Lady Gaga's five singles, "Just Dance," "Poker Face," "Lovegame," "Paparazzi," and "Bad Romance," have sold more than 30 million singles worldwide. The video for "Bad Romance" has racked up more than 125 million online views

She's wildly successful because she does appeal to a large segment of the population....and time will tell if she re invents herself to continue to appeal to a mass market.

Look, I don't like rap music...I don't get Black Eyed Peas. Does it follow that they're no good? Seems to me the problem is mine...I simply don't "get it"

But millions do.

John you are quoting sales figures and statistics that are born of hype and the gullibility of people who buy into this crap.
Macdonalds sells billions of burgers...does not make it quality, healthy gourmet food......It is a testament to the stupidity of people rather than a quality product. The same applies to MOST of the pop music stars. They are there beacuse silly teenagers buy into it hook line and sinker. I know dozens of young musicians and songwriters who could easily fill their shoes. I bet the Gagas could not fill our shoes though. We play to discerning audiences who can see right through this crap.

Interesting switch in your argument Big Jim

Now we're not talking about the quality of her music, or her entertainment value, now your saying her fans are idiots for buying into her hype.

Not only that, they continue to be blindsided by the sizzle as they buy more, and continue to be idiots as she releases more music.

Using your argument, Beatlemania was invented by the press (true) ...and we were idiots for buying into that hype. Certainly many of our parents thought so..as they continued to revere Sinatra and Torme.

Again...she's not appealing to your demographis, and that's fine. It's the way a mass market works. Just don't assume that the segment of a population that buys her music is stupid for doing so.

I judge her simply by what she has accomplished.

She's all over the media, has generated lots of music sales, and continues to capture a lot of attention that she uses to generate more sales. By any definition of "business", and in particular "the music business", she's a success. The fact that you don't think she's any good, or that I find her "interesting" is meaningless given her results.

It only proves what we've known all along. Music and entertainment is subjective...so you're right when you say you don't like her. Just don't assume your taste is universal, or that those who don't share your taste are fools.

I am not attacking anyone in particular just the system and the gullibility of the people who are duped into buying whatever is put in front of them. You cannot argue about the Beatles or other people from that era. They were innovators offering something new and revolutionary and were not a product of the system. For what it is worth I felt they were over hyped as well. I have not changed tack. IMO people who make it big should be there because they are so much more talented than anybody else and the music they produce is on a plateau others cannot reach....not becuase they are hyped. Yes gaga is famous.....yes she is a star.....etc etc etc. Is her talent way above everything else that is out there? I DO NOT THINK SO.
Whilst you think I am insulting the public for liking gaga or the rest of the popstars...I am just stating what I believe to be true. The public are easily led.

I understand this desire, but I've never known it to be the reason why anyone ever made it big. You win the Olympic gold medal for being the best, but you make it in show business because you sell tickets. All the arguments about who's better, more deserving, passed over, hyped...to me, they're irrelevant to the way things have always worked in entertainment.

Sadly there are no tests to determine fastest longest or strongest when it comes to music. Maybe they should all compete by playing or singing like an exam.......in the olden days and even today before being allowed to join an orchestra you had to pass an audition and be of an acceptable grade....I doubt gaga or any of the others would make it. In fact it creases me to see orchestras or bands perform behind these "stars" where any member of the band has far more talent than the people they are backing.
In days gone by people worked their way up through the business and eventually their experience and talent was recognised. Sadly now people with limited talent make it big instantly by appearing on AI or X factor or similar shows. I say sadly because it is a sad indictment of us that we should condone and even encourage such a thing especially when most of us know people who can do so much better but do not get the chance.

I can't stand her because I think she's obscene. But I think musically she has it going on even if I don't get it, and that she's talented despite the fact that I don't like it. Dude, I love the fact that you are passionate about good music. but does it concern you at all you that you've decided that 30 million people are not only wrong, but gullible and stupid, and you're right? Could there be any possibility whatsoever that this woman's success is a reflection, to at least some degree, of her talent?

Let me turn it around a little... Let's say a woman named Linda Smith submitted some of her lyrics or songs to JPF for comments for the first time. Let's say those songs were the very hits that Lady G has released on the radio but nobody had ever heard of her or her songs before this moment in time...that JPF was seeing her work for the first time. Would you have had any more willingness to consider her work, perhaps embrace her work, or at least give her the benefit of the doubt, simply because she was new, she was here, and no one had ever heard of her? Would you have been an more inclinded to encourage her as you do other writers on these boards, or would you have simply written her off as a no talent?

With respect,

Bill Renfrew
www.writethismusic.com

Bill I am not saying she or other pop stars have NO talent I am saying that they are over hyped over paid and over rated and are nothing special. I view and judge all music as to whether I think it is well written and performed not on how popular it is. Popularity does not mean greatness. Macdonalds are popular but unhealthy crap just the same.
Some people are taking offence because I say that the general public are stupid and gullible. Bill the whole human race is stupid and gullible. Perhaps if we were not as stupid then we could live in harmony with each other without crime, war, greed, selfishness and poverty.
We are all gullible and in my experience the most gullible are the very ones who say they are not gullible. Anything can be sold if it is hyped and packaged correctly FACT. If you do not believe me ask the sales and marketing teams and the advertising agencies. Watch the TV and magazine ads....do you believe all what they say? If you do then you are gullible if you do not then you are in agreement with me. Sad thing is there are millions who do believe and buy crap at inflated prices.
PC ink carts are obscenely expensive yet the ink costs only pennies.....why? cause we are gullible enough to let them get away with it. Why should music be any different?
The Simon Cowell's of this world are not stupid....succesful con men rarely are. They rely on the stupidity of the masses to buy into whatever they put in front of us.
Most folk are too weak to protest and some who try to get a piece of the cake or see themselves as potential popstars are afraid to rock the boat. I understand that.

Which is the better example of gullible- to generally assume that if something is wildly and rapidly successful it must be a result of hype and marketing, or to generally assume that if something is wildly and rapidly successful it must be good?

Let me guess...you have fallen prey to neither...but the rest of us have. Right?

And you did imply it was someting other than talent that was moving her forward...you said:

IMO people who make it big should be there because they are so much more talented than anybody else and the music they produce is on a plateau others cannot reach....not becuase they are hyped. Yes gaga is famous.....yes she is a star.....etc etc etc. Is her talent way above everything else that is out there? I DO NOT THINK SO.

This is where I think you miss the boat Jim. McDonalds and other big companies are always looking for ways to part you from your dollar, and use incessant advertising to do so.

Music is not sold that way. Did you buy Beatles stuff because it was advertised or because it generated a widely reported buzz among your peers? Even in the days of payola, if the music was no good, listeners tuned out, and went somewhere else. Remember, payola only gave it a better chance to be heard. Sure it generated some sales, I can't believe it did not, but if it had nothing going for it, it dropped off the charts.


As far as what they "deserve", the key is that folks are willing to shell out $15 to $20 for a CD, (her 30 million units generate say $600 million in sales) $50 to $150 for concerts, and up to thousands (I have a client who has tickets to the Superbowl every year...shelss out about 10k apiece for them) for sporting events. The total take is in the billions and a lot of folks make money. Who should get the lion's share?

Say Gaga sells 500,000 concert tickets (10 filled stadiums at 50,000 each, or 50 dates a year at 10,000 each....both are easily attainable) at say $75 a ticket....for a take of 37.5 million. Who should get the lion's share?

You say someone who generates hundreds of millions and maybe a billion or so between CD sales and concerts is not worth much, or is overpaid?

I'm not trying to keep up with Lada GaGa. I need to know what is happening in Nashville. Who is recording, who is looking for songs. Where can I get a weekly update? Is the music advancing or declining?

Dag Nab it, they are playing the Brahms Violin Concerto on the radio. Horray, all is well!

This is where I think you miss the boat Jim. McDonalds and other big companies are always looking for ways to part you from your dollar, and use incessant advertising to do so.

Music is not sold that way.

In a pigs eye......now who is gullible!!!!

Bill I do not follow your argument.....you say that you do not like gaga and do not get it. Then you defend her saying that if millions buy into the hype I must be wrong in saying she does not deserve it. You are a respected musician..use your ears and eyes....is she SO much better than the acts you see on a day to day basis?
The charts for many years has been full of imposters who have little or no musical talent. They have been sold on hype and creating a demand. The tweenies and tone deaf public buy into it.
I can spot talent from fake..I know when it is all hype and little substance.....I can see lip sync and know that these people cannot put in a decent enough live performance. I just wish others could. I judge each act and song on merit and so far few if any of the manufactured acts really deserve the fame they so easily get. As I said before anything sells if it is merchandised and packaged the right way.
I bet given the contacts, financial backing stage management and hype I could pick just about any kid off the street and make him/her a star. Does not mean they have talent just means that people are stupid enough to fall for it.

Read it all Big Jim...don't just take a few words out of context...and divert attention from your points that musicians today don't deserve what they get and are a talentless bunch supported by the gullible masses.

And say what you will, music is not sold (primarily) via advertising like other mass merchandise.

Radio play sells music (and radio stations aim for a specific audience so you get C&W, Jazz, Top 40, ez listening etc)

Concerts sell music (and the artists. Concerts are the PRIMARY way to capture and expand local markets)

Peer groups sell music.

Publicists work hard to get their artists in the news...which brings a spotlight that sells music.


McDonalds used television and radio adds and product promotions and coupons etc to spur sales. And they aim them at kids...not even the buyers..but the "influencers of the buying decision" For the same reason, Kellogs and Post cereals advertise on kids programs, not on adult programs...unless its an adult cereal.


-30

Gawrsh, this thread is FUN!!!

Johnny V seems to assume "the days of payola" are over, but howcome DJs no longer get to pick the music they play, if that's the case? & WHY does the public LET this happen..& look the other way when Payola's merely changed Form & Players these days?

Meanwhile, Gaga's the Latest Incarnation of Someone-Who-Can-Shock-Our-Parents...(WITH a good bit of Overall Talent, JMO/Hey, say what ya want, it takes a Certain Talent to sleep with The RIGHT Producer!) I remember when KISS got popular (very) with platform shoes/Makeup Jobs & Freaky Costumes...& Tossaway Hits like "I Want to Rock & Roll All Night"... Took far LESS Production than what Gaga has to go through..but, heh, THOSE guys are considered "Classics" & Gene Simmonds has his own Reality Show..at this Late Date.

"Don't stop/ for anyone/We're plastic/but we'll still have fun" goes one verse of Gaga's "PAPARAZZI" Hit.

I dunno WHY we've gotta Analyze Someone's Success "to death", but That Verse sorta says-it-all. Sooner or later, what's "Cutting Edge" gets kinda-dull...whether it's Platform Shoes...or Costumes that look like you're Duchamp's "Nude Descending a Staircase"...& Only The SONGS Remain.

I Googled lyrics to "Caught in a Bad Romance"...hmmm...not much better than "My Baby Does the Hanky-Panky"...back in "My Day"...
but it's Hook-Laden & catchy-enough to have caught on WITHOUT a lotta Payola, JMO.

Waal, back to Lurk Mode, knowing full-well that The Music Biz'll continue full-tilt without needing any of Our Opinions!

Best Wishes/Big Hugs,
Stan

Last word John.... Pop music is manufactured and processed....it is advertised through TV performances and radio play.....Getting on this payola is near impossible unless you are with the establishment and one of their acts. Talent does not even enter the equation.

GAGA is noticed for all the wrong reasons as I stated earlier. If she has to stoop to wearing outrageous indecent garb and flashing her boobies to sell records and get publicity then that tells me two things.
1. She has little self respect and low morals.
2. She has very little musical talent.

To be fair to your points though it seems that nowadays anyone who wants to make it in the business has to follow that template. No need to spend years learning how to play instruments, taking vocal tuition and honing your talents. You just need to look pretty screw a director and flash your boobies at everyone. Then your talent will sell millions.

If it were just a matter of showing skin and looking pretty...I can think of tens of thousands of "talent-less" women that should be doing as well or better than Lady gaga, because she's not a particularly "endowed" or advantaged woman.

I think the formula you described above, Jim, falls a little short on that argument. Besides which, she is a talented vocalist, pianist and performer - obviously she honed her craft.

-Ethan

BJ, that the music business is tightly controlled by the money...I'll agree. Try getting on Saturday Night Live or a major talk show without major backing...very difficult I'm sure. Some are more generous than others (I doubt for example that SNL is an easy to get gig while Letterman is more daring and less beholden to the powers that be). And yes, I'm sure payola is still around in different clothes, but still, the ultimate vote comes from the buyers pockets...and I give them more credit that you do.


Lastly,

"If she has to stoop to wearing outrageous indecent garb and flashing her boobies to sell records and get publicity then that tells me two things.
1. She has little self respect and low morals.

Maybe she has more self confidance, more daring, more flamboyance, a greater sense of adventure, or maybe she is less repressed, less inhibited, less self conscious.... I could go on here but I think I've made my point


2. She has very little musical talent.

As a crown attorney might say "I rest my case on the evidence Your Honour"

Who is Lady GaGa? Shows how much I stay up with current trends.

John


Point 1 The public can only buy what is in front of them so no backing and promo...no sales.... They cannot set trends they can only pick from what is there to buy.

Point 2 There is a subtle but distinct difference between self confidence, flamboyance, less inhibited, self conscious (I am all of these things).....AND being just plain lewd and tartish ( I am not she is)

Point 3 She has very little musical talent......Her chord progs are basic and her lyrics are moronic. Not that great a singer.

I know this has been posted before, but in the context of this discussion, I think it is worth viewing again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owT0lvqtdmI

Big Jim,

You said:

Bill I do not follow your argument.....you say that you do not like gaga and do not get it. Then you defend her saying that if millions buy into the hype I must be wrong in saying she does not deserve it. You are a respected musician..use your ears and eyes....is she SO much better than the acts you see on a day to day basis?

You always read 1 or two sentences of my posts and then fire back so I'll keep this short. I'm open minded enough to know that just because I don't like something doesn't always mean it automaticslly sucks. I'm suggesting that you aren't. I didn't say that gaga IS good. I'm just saying that she MAY be good and maybe I still have something new to learn to appreciate. The data would suggest that may be the case. You discount the data wholly as not only irrelevant but fraudulent.

My parents hated the Beatles when they first came out for the EXACT SAME REASONS you hate Lady GAGA...the Beatles were outside the world they knew and felt comfortable in. You can make your world as big or small as you want to. I can't stand her so am I as guilty as you and my parents? It's not the music I've decided to hate...it's the obscenity. I don't get the music but she's not off key and she can sing her arse off so for me the jury's out on the music.

Bill
www.writethismusic.com

DID YOU ACTUALLY SAY THAT????!!!!!

ARRRRGGGGGGG Why do I argue with you?????

[Hey, for some strange reason "Hey Jude" just popped in my mind. Isn't that weird that happens sometimes?]

Dude, I'm very sorry but I can no longer take you seriously after that one.

OUtta here...
Bill

Ray,

You said,
I'm not trying to keep up with Lada GaGa. I need to know what is happening in Nashville. Who is recording, who is looking for songs. Where can I get a weekly update? Is the music advancing or declining?

Dag Nab it, they are playing the Brahms Violin Concerto on the radio. Horray, all is well!


I wish I could answer your questions but I'm all about Lady GaGa these days. Sorry.

Send me a song. You get a free song eval for the funniest post in the thread.

NOW I'm outta here.

b
www.writethismusic.com

Bill "Bad Romance"..... C C C G Am...... mostly all the way through what can be more BASIC than that.

We agree on her crassness and obscenity.

My point if you actually read all my posts (I do read all of yours) is not so much that she is crap more like...what does she offer that is so special?
Nothing much IMO.
Please tell me why I am SO wrong saying that her chord structure is basic.

I am sorry so many of you measure talent or success and greatness by only looking at the numbers first.
I look at the content.....I make up my own mind based on what I see and hear. Sales figures do not necessarily reflect musical talent or prowess.

Thank you for bringing an end to this discussion Big Jim, because you've boiled down your argument to its weakest element.

Your personal opinion of her music, her talent, its content etc, is only that...your subjective opinion. I'll add it is as valid as anyone else's opinion that runs contrary to yours...and I'll even concede that with your experience, it deserves more credence than opinions from those with less exposure.

But your opinion is still merely that...your opinion.

The problem is that you assert that your opinion as fact, a universal fact. In reality, it is merely a "value judgement"

I would not have challenged you if you said...in my opinion, LGG is a talentless hack who does not deserve to be where she is. Everyone is on your case because you say, as if it is fact, she's a talentless hack who does not deserve to be where she is.

Its kinda like libel. I can always say, "in my opinion, Big Jim Merrilees is a lying thieving syphillic cheat with delusions of musical competence", but I cannot state it as fact. People can then take my opinion for what it's worth.... a sackful of excrement.

Now your statements concerning the behaviour of the industry...those are far less subjective.

And I suppose you are right in that I am defending her talent via her results and not via her substance. But I did try that and your value judgement would not accept it. So I mentioned results to say a lot of people voted with their pockets...so they certainly appreciate her entertainment value....but you basically said those people are mindless fools

Oh, back to music itself for a moment....the chords and chord progressions are , in my opinion, meaningless. It's all about the melody, rhythm, arrangement, and lyric that "flows through" the progression.

By your statement, what can be more basic and G C D ? Yet some brilliant songs have been written using that most basic of progressions.

By your statement, what happens if I transpose to a different key and start introducing more difficult to play chords? What happens if I play C and Am in different voicings. Does it suddenly become better?

By your statement, most rock and roll is crap, basic blues is entirely crap, and down the crapper goes "three chords and a sad story"

Lady Gaga is so yesterday. I have seen the future, and it is Louis Armstrong Death Metal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLkOYHYQ2tc&feature

You have all gone goo goo for gaga! Me, I gotta go go!

Simplistic is perhaps a better word. There has been some great three chorders but that is not my point. I use the word crap as to mean nothing more than she is nothing special or out of the ordinary. Lets not get bogged down with symantics. I think everyone knows what I mean it just seems that most folk are splitting hairs.
For the record PLEASE tell ME why you think she merits all this attention and why you think she IS even above average when it comes to writing and performing. I have seen or heard nothing that sets her apart from the many thousand wannabes who play pinao and sing.

5 reasons, IMO

The music is danceable...has a great beat

She sings the songs well

Her songs have memorable hooks

Her songs "stand out" in the market

I have seen her songs done fully produced and "unplugged" and either way, the songs are good.



And there's probably is no "magic bullet" that sets her far apart from the crowd talent (singing, songwriting) wise, but I do believe she IS

that unique individual (person, training, experience, drive, connections)

who was at the right place (New York) in the right industry (songwriting) with reasonable success (as Stefani Germotta (sp?),

who made the right connections (industry, fashion)

who saw and was able to exploit the opportunities that opened up for her.


So yeah, I get the part that others have the necessasry, and perhaps some even have more, talent that "deserves" success...but more goes into the equation than raw talent...

Now try to explain why ANYONE merits attention and stands out above the rest. It's not an easily explainable thing, and usually ends up with a statement such as "it's obvious".

The sales tell me she connects with million, while others choose to believe millions are not in control of their own opinions or pleasures.

I like her because I think she has it all--talent, entertainment, fun, star quality and good music.

HAHAHAHA MArk you are the MAN!! right arm "Its obvious" hahahaha I think I control my own I guess I am lucky or crazy like that

Actually Mark, those are the long lived acts...The Neil Youngs, David Bowies, Paul Simons, Madonnas etc...

The have entertained us for decades. They are not only good, but consistently good...but even they drop the ball every once in awhile, despite record company hype.

ie
Neil Young's Transformer
David Bowie's Low and Berlin years(at least to me)
Paul Simon's Rhythm of the Saints (maybe Graceland was too hard an act to follow)

Jim, You said:

Simplistic is perhaps a better word. There has been some great three chorders but that is not my point. I use the word crap as to mean nothing more than she is nothing special or out of the ordinary.
I know I said I wouldn't continue this but John V NAILED it. We love ya Big Jim. We just want you to respect our opinions, not call a lot of us stupid and gullible and too clueless to realize what you hage deemned as fact.

One more thing...I'd say if you can make millions of dollars with 3 chords, and don't HAVE to get more complicated than that,
you've got a handle on something other than mastery of the publicity stunt. Many have tried and failed...J Lo comes to mind as one who looked a lot better, made a LOT bigger splash, did the payola thing, you name it. But in the end she couldn't back it up with the musical goods. Now it's J who? That disproves your theory that talent isn't an issue...lock stock and barrel.

Here's where you might consider saying, "I don't agree at all , but who knows Bill, maybe I'm wrong and you're right. I guess time will tell." instead of, "Bill, you're a clueless gullible fool."

With respect,

Bill
www.writethismusic.com

Bill I am generalising when I say the public are stupid and gullible...please do not take it personally...I include myself when I say that.
Anyone with half a brain and a decent ear can tell crap from class. That said most of the music in the public eye MTV and TV and radio etc (payola) is just noise to the averasge Joe and they will buy into what ever fashionable noise is put in front of them. They buy noise not music.
I was once working in a club and the acts that were playing (except me of course LOL) were very poor and way below standard. The guy who ran the club, a pretty good musician himself, told me that the audience do not know any better and as long as there is noise aproximating music they will be happy.
Sadly, I hope I am wrong, but that is how I see the business. It does not matter how good or bad a musician you are,it does not really matter how hard you work or the songs you perform. It is all down to playing the game and hoping you get lucky. IMO talent has little to do with getting on in the business.

My daughter just bought a gaga album and we were listening to it last night. My daughter is 26 and has a pretty broad range and taste in music. She is not a bad singer and actress she stars in semi pro theatre productions. She is my worst critic. I asked her what she thought of gaga. "Well she is OK but nothing special" she said. I would rather listen to you.
What do you think of her singing I asked. "Hard to tell with so much melodyne and other effects she could have been singing anything" she said.
Let us just clarify....that is my opinion of gaga also.

I do respect your opinion Bill even if sometimes I disagree. What I did not understand why when you agreed with almost everything I said about gagas talent you got aeriated at me.
Musical taste all depends on location, upbringing, peer pressure and what is actually available. Some people have little or no interest in music whilst others devote their lives to it.
One thing though any lover of music wants to be the best, see the best and hear the best. I am afraid that the powers that be who determine what is going to be punted at the public obviously are not lovers of music. They are just lovers of money.
I think the public deserve better. I also think that the musicans and songwriters deserve better than a lottery. I believe that true talent should be rewarded. That is why I constantly fight our corner.
Interesting to see where you differ from that.

Big Jim, nothing you say can convince me that at the heart of this, its not about personal taste and, for the industry, about impersonal demographics.

If I recall tight, you've played with the folks from Nazareth. Now being Scottish yourself, I can see how you like them. They've had some widespread success with some of their stuff, had others cover some of their work, and they continue to release CDs. And they've had a long career.

But although I thought some of their stuff was fine, generally, they're not my cup of tea...

Now to the Scottish music scene, they're probably awesome...to a large segment of the the hard rocking crowd, they're awesome, to music purists who are into hard rock, they're masters of their craft....,

Me, I really like Everything But The Girl...another Scottish duo...their "unplugged" , I believe, started the "unplugged trend" and their covers of say "Time After Time, and "Allison" are great and their own "Driving" is a really good song...but again, not everyone's cup of tea.

You and I have both had a lot of exposure to music. I think Audience was one of the most influential bands that ever came out of Britain...but many folks go duh? who are they? I have to think you know who I am talking about.

But in the end...all this just says...it's subjective.

As far as what the industry does with acts...I can't agree more....but record companies are like venture capitalists. No amount of backing, publicity, cajoling, payola is going to save a bad act, so many CDs end up in the remainder bin and footnotes in music history, and record companies lose millions...but do make up for it with the Neil Youngs, Paul Simons, and yes, LGG.

Time will tell if she lasts.

This is not meant to invalidate your point...it only re inforces what I'm trying to drive home. Your opinion is your opinion, it is "fact" for you....but that does not make it a universal truth.

High John
I agree with most of what you say....Apart from the bit about bad acts. Milli Vanilli are just one example of the industry trying to pull the wool by kidding us on that crap has talent. I bet both you and I could both cite many other examples. There is different tastes obviously and I probably have different taste than most others. But hey we as musicians can appreciate skill and talent whether it is your cup of tea or not. By the same token we know when folk cannot sing or play guitar etc etc etc regardless of what kind of stuff they perform. I just watched La Roux (she just had a number one UK hit a month or so ago) She performed covers of classic songs for charity singing live on a tribute program and it was like amateur night at a karaoke. She was woefully bad. I mean woefully bad. Her mother is a famous soap actress.....mmmmmn I wonder how she got a break. All I am saying is that too many people get fame these days when they do not have the talent to back it up. I am sure we both know folk who are as good if not better as gaga or a lot of the others and could do as good a job. I bet they are not making the money they do. Why cannot the truly talented people get a shot first.
I stand by my comments that the industry is corrupt. Do not be fooled into thinking that people who sell millions of records necessarily have real talent.
Audience...I am sure I saw them back in the seventies backing Led Zep but am not that familiar with their work.
EBTG have had successs and I am familiar with their work....not exactly my cup of tea but can see the talent they have.

Man are you dead on with Milli Vanilli...and now that we are more or less on the same page...


No question there are acts that get promoted that should not, by "our standards" get promoted. At the lower end of the food chain, I've seen "managers" put bands together from their other pieces and send them out on the road...not because they're any good, just because it maintains a revenue stream for them.


So no question the business side drives a large part of the agenda, and that is not always a good thing creative wise.


I guess the answer to your key question "why cannot truly talented people get the break they deserve" is that it is an "ideal" at odds with reality.


The best do not always become corporate managers, executives and company CEOs. The best operating software does not necessarily sell the most. The best qualified people do not necessarily become prime minister. That has more to do with how they present themselves, who their friends are, their personal ambitions, drive and capabilities etc.


So talent does not automatically equate to success.


I guess success depends more on making the right connections, seizing the right opportunities, being in the right place at the right time, being easy to work with, having the right parents,...etc


And yeah, that does mean that some great talent gets missed or insufficent exposure....but don't get too excited...because I won't conclude that just because some talent gets missed, that those that do make it deserve it less....

I will though agree that it is true in some cases...like Milli Vanilli, and who can forget the Bay City Rollers ...were they not also Scottish?? As I recall, they were huge for a year or so, then began changing personnel as members began leaving and their record company tried to keep things alive.

We could start a whole new thread about bands that are not the same anymore, but tour on their early cred with no original members...man does that shore up part of your argument...that folks go to see acts that are only names...

And someone mentioned Menudo. Are they not a Brazilian boy band that is now about 5 decades old? They keep cycling through young idols because management owns the name...but it does appeal to the young who know no better...again shoring up your argument.

Nothing like advocating for the other side after scoring points with the one side. What can I say...you chose to "argue" with an INTJ...we're like that. We do it for sport

The Bay City Rollers were from Bay City Mich.

Actually the Bay City Rollers were from Edinburgh, Scotland, just like Big Jim. They got their name by throwing a dart at a map.

I did not know that. (Johnny Carson)

I was just thinking they had some pretty heavy scottish accents for being from MICHIGAN!

It's the insults on the intellgence of those who think differently from you that are the rub. As much as you and I dislike her you and I may still have something very important to learn from Lady Gaga..and of course maybe not. But to discount the intellegence of millions who think differently than you...because they like something you don't? is sorta like putting a bullseye on your back. Anyone can play the snob and say 'she sucks'. Easy. It's harder to identify what she's doing right and not only learn from it but gain from it. WIth her it's hard for me to do that...but I have to.) I've learned so much about songwriting from TaYLOR sWIFT. Some wholly dismiss her as a product of hype. It's the way it's done that either sounds like a difference of opinion or a comment that to me can sound a bit condescending.

Respectfully,

Bill