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http://www.humtoo.com/

Posted By: Nadia

http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/05/09 10:26 PM

Hello. I hope everybody is enjoying Sunday. A friend of mine has just posted me a liflet with http://www.humtoo.com/
I would be grateful if anyone would tell me whether it is a good place to be. I've never heard of them but it doesn't mean much so if anyone here tried them and happy / unhappy, please would you share your thoughts on the subject. Thank you.
Nadia
Posted By: Hummingbird

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/06/09 12:42 AM

I am a member there and have pitched music to a couple of opps. Haven't gotten any jobs yet. It's free. I'd vet any offer carefully, but then I'd do that anyway.
Posted By: Nadia

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/07/09 12:54 AM

Thank you, Vikki.
Nadia
Posted By: Steve P.

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/07/09 01:26 AM

I checked out the site and was interested enough to sign up. Then...I saw this when I was ready to upload a file:
---------

Our Right as Publishing Administrator

4.1 Subject to the prior or future rights of any Performing Right Organisation and to any Agency Licence, you grant to us an exclusive licence throughout the world and for the Publishing Period (defined below) to exercise all rights of copyright in any and all of your Uploaded Works, including the right to grant any third party a licence to use your Uploaded Works for synchronisation with cinematograph film or for the promotion of third party goods or services.

4.2 In this agreement, “Publishing Period” means, in respect of each Uploaded Work, a period of no less than five (5) years commencing on the date the relevant Track embodying that Uploaded Work is uploaded to the Website, and continuing until the last day of the Accounting Period in which you have given us 21 days notice of your intention to terminate this agreement, provided the five (5) year period has first elapsed since the Uploaded Work was uploaded. The Publishing Period shall also terminate if we permanently remove that Uploaded Work from the Website.
---------------------

So...just by uploading a single track to their site...even if you never get a `project', you are assigning publishing rights to them for 5 years?!?!?!?!?

Hmmm...I need to think about this one! confused
Posted By: Steve P.

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/07/09 02:00 AM

HA! I just received this email from Humtoo, when I asked the aforementioned question:
-----------
Hi Steve,

Yes that is correct. From our how it works section:

http://www.humtoo.com/how-it-works.asp?HIWPageID=3

The reason for this publishing deal for all tracks? In the very near future all tracks that are unsuccessful for the first project that they are pitched for will be entered into the HUMTOO music library. We publish all tracks uploaded to the site as they will all either end up winning a project through the site or end up in the library that we administer, publish and actively promote. Any track uploaded to the site is also always in the pool of available tracks and can be attached and reattached to any project on the site at will. This gives you flexibility to pitch your tracks as you see fit and also have the tracks available as part of a rapidly growing library...

---------------

BE CAREFUL...ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO TRANSFER YOUR COPYRIGHT????
Posted By: Hummingbird

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/07/09 05:38 AM

Thanks for checking into it Steve. The language is similar to that of music libraries, but I'm always cautious about just uploading stuff to a site. Where is the paperwork? What happens if the site goes down or discontinues? Who do I contact and will I always be able to contact them? A few questions to think about. Caution is warranted.
Posted By: Nadia

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/07/09 06:19 PM

Thank you for checking it out, Steve. I should have done it myself really but I haven't. Well, I have my music on MySpace, Showcase your music, Songramp, Soundclick, Soundcloud, Podomatic and a tiny sample on YouTube. Do you think any of these sites are really good for a songwriter to upload the music or do you think none of them are worth considering as in theory any site can go down and the copyright is different in different countries. I know the question of copyright issues keeps coming up but I'd be very grateful for any opinion. I was really happy with Showcase your music but I found out that the voting system is not what one hopes for. I'm happy with Songramp. I hope I'm right with my choices but I'd be very grateful for your honest opinion.
Nadia
Posted By: Steve P.

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/07/09 07:27 PM

Hi Nadia,

I guess that's really a tough question to answer...but I will try. smile

You say that you have your music `on' all of those sites, but where can listeners `buy' your songs? It's always good to have multiple websites playing your music, so in that regard...I guess it is good. The real question is: What are you doing to let people know that you're on those sites? I also have music all over the place, but honestly...nobody knows that I'm there. Just having your music on these sites is only the beginning. That's the easy part...now you need a plan to pull people in (the really hard part).

As long as you never agree to transfer, or sell your copyright (READ EVERYTHING ON THESE SITES CAREFULLY), there's no harm in submitting your music. You are not giving up any of your rights...only allowing them to play the music. You also need to understand what the termination, or cancellation policy is. Most sites will either allow you to delete your songs, as you choose, or will do so after you contact them. Others, however, may take a long time to pull it down. Some will make you wait a reallly lonnnnnnng time frown

It is always YOUR responsibility to read everything BEFORE you upload your music. The agreement with Humtoo is probably the worst (in my opinion) that I have seen yet. The minute you upload your track to their site...they control the EXCLUSIVE PUBLISHING for 5 years.

You have worked very hard to create it and the world wants to hear it. Just make sure you keep what belongs to you. smile





Posted By: Nadia

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/07/09 08:06 PM

Thank you, Steve. As for your question, I let people who are interested in my music know about my sites and when I post on JPF I often say where people can hear my work so I feel I do let people know about my music. As for selling it, I haven't done anything to sell my music on the net, I have no experience with it, no account so I'm still thinking whether that's what I want to do. Thank you again.

Nadia
Posted By: Brian Baughn

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/08/09 06:10 PM

This is a subject for an attorney to clarify, but it's my feeling that their legal claim to the copyright based on an upload is spurious.

Having said that, I'd agree that it's a bad idea to get involved with any site that even THINKS like that.
Posted By: Nadia

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/09/09 12:43 AM

I agree, Brian. I've decided not to even think about them as an option. Thank you very much for your opinion and my very special thanks to Steve who took so much time to investigate. You've done a fine job there, Steve. I'm still trying to find out the best sites to upload my songs although I might be wrong in considering so many. It gets confusing, doesn't it? If anyone is happy/unhappy and would like to share their experience via this forum or send me their PM, I'd be very grateful. Thank you everyone who took the time to post a comment to my question.
Nadia
Posted By: humtoo

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/16/09 01:40 AM

Hi all,

One of our marketing guys brought this thread to my attention - so I thought I'd pitch in our side of the story.

First off, Steve is very right when he says carefully consider agreeing to part with any copyright before you do it. You should - and were Myspace (for example) asking for your publishing just to list tracks on the site you'd be a fool to do it.

That being said - we are not Myspace. We are designed to be a professional music library and marketplace where you can pitch your music to clients and have clients access a library that we publish and promote. There are plenty of sites available for setting up an online resume.

Also - although our contract says that we publish everything uploaded to the site - in practice we only publish things that end up either winning a project or completing a project unsuccessfully. There is no point us registering something that can be deleted at any time by the user from the site. Once a track completes a project it enters into our music library (this is all in our "how it works" information on the site)

All of this information is available freely before you upload and even if you do upload and change your mind - you can completely delete your track from the HUMTOO system at any time before it is on a project that you completely pitch for.

We're not out to "steal" anyone royalties. This standard publishers share of performance royalties is HUMTOO's only publishing commission on the site. Other libraries take a hit of your sync and reproduction royalties too - we give 100% of any sync or reproduction royalties or project fees earned to the members. We also don't charge listing fees for projects or any sort of membership fees.

In addition we're always adding new features for our members - going online very shortly is our remix and collaboration section - all of the power of the site for users to use to have their tracks remixed and to collaborate with other members - of course we don't touch any publishing here either. There's a lot more to come - a great deal of it from requests from our members for things they'd like to see to help them get more projects.

Steve, I fail to see how you can classify this as the worst deal you've seen. As far as library music contracts go - ours is very fair and we consulted heavily to ensure this. The key thing again to remember is that we are a music library - not Myspace. Still, if you want to put up your songs just to have an online resume you can do so on our site as long as you don't pitch them for projects or enter them into the library (again explained in "how it works").

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how this is unfair. We give every piece of information you will need to make an informed decision about our services and multiple points at which you can opt out and we offer better a deal than most other library music companies. No one is forcing or tricking anyone into using our services.

We're very open with our information and have consulted widely with industry professionals and PROs to ensure the fairness of our system.

Brian - the copyright is not based on an upload - but the contract that you must agree to before uploading. This is perfectly legal. We've all agreed to many contracts online for use of services. Our contract is freely available as is all information before agreeing to anything. Also - just agreeing to the contract does not lock you into anything until one of your tracks is pitched for a project on the site when that project closes and we enter it into out music library and register it.

As said - every bit of this information is explained thoroughly in our "how it works" section where all our contracts are available for perusal. Our contact details are there and we will answer any question put to us.

I know it can get very scary out there with all the legalese and contracts and being careful where to put you music, etc - but we're on your side (cliché I know) but we are - we're a business but we're not out to hurt anyone - we try to explain everything on the site in as plain English as possible. We do need to make money - but rather than sting you for membership fees or upload fees, etc we chose a system where we make money when you do - like every other library music company - we profit when you profit.

I don't know if I'll check back here or not - but all our contact details and information are on the site. Feel free to drop in and poke around and ask questions. Use the service if you choose to - we hope yo see you there.

Cheers,

Jason.
(HUMTOO)
Posted By: Steve P.

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/16/09 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by humtoo
...
Steve, I fail to see how you can classify this as the worst deal you've seen. As far as library music contracts go - ours is very fair and we consulted heavily to ensure this. The key thing again to remember is that we are a music library - not Myspace. Still, if you want to put up your songs just to have an online resume you can do so on our site as long as you don't pitch them for projects or enter them into the library (again explained in "how it works"). ...


This is why I personally feel that it's one of the worst deals-
The minute a track is uploaded to your site...you control the EXCLUSIVE PUBLISHING for 5 years. It doesn't say anywhere in your terms of agreement that you can just post tracks as a `resume', as you stated here, and that the copyright transfer doesn't happen UNTIL you submit for a project. If it does, please correct me.

You tell Brian that the copyright transfer does not take place at the upload stage, yet section 4 of your agreement says that it does.

(from your site)
"4.2 In this agreement, “Publishing Period” means, in respect of each Uploaded Work, a period of no less than five (5) years commencing on the date the relevant Track embodying that Uploaded Work is uploaded to the Website, " That certainly reads to me that once it's uploaded...the 5 year clock starts ticking!

As I indicated in my correspondence with you, personally...I'm sure your offer is attractive to some people. Perhaps I am simply one of the minority that doesn't agree to the terms.
Posted By: humtoo

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/16/09 02:49 AM

Hi Steve + all,

If you read the how it works on our site - you will see what I'm talking about.

Yes technically we are able to register your tracks on upload - but as I tried to explain - we don't. Our contract exists this way as it is an easier point to quantify when a track enters our system. It does not mean that we register it then.

No copyright has been transferred until we register the track with APRA (our PRO). You have given us the right to, but nothing has been transferred at that point. There is no point at all in us registering at point of upload when you can delete your track from our site until it enters the library. We won't be marketing a library that does not exist on our site - there would be very little point in that.

We explain this completely in our how it works (there is a whole section explaining our publishing deal) and as I said before all the information is freely available before you upload and you can remove your tracks at any time until your track enters our library.

Library music companies are not for everyone - that is why we explain everything up front. Most library companies take 50% of all royalty types for the life of copyright. We take a LOT less and only on tracks that enter our library. It is fairer than any library music company I have personally dealt with. Please remember that we are a library music company - not a Myspace-style promotional page.

Steve, of course it is fine for you to not use the service - I am not here to question your decision. I just want to make sure it is clear to everyone as our system is not being presented clearly by merely quoting our contract.

If anyone is interested in the site - please read our how it works where everything is explained thoroughly and clearly and then shoot us an email if you have further questions.

Cheers,

Jason.
Posted By: Steve P.

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/16/09 03:24 AM

Hi Jason,

I knew you'd be back. smile

With all due respect, your `How it Works' section seems to give conflicting information.

The `Humtoo and Publishing' section says this:
"HUMTOO will exclusively administer the publishing of all tracks that are chosen for a project or enter into the HUMTOO music library for a period of 5 years after which you can opt any of your tracks out by writing to us."

Ok...That's pretty easy to understand.

Yet your`Contributing Music Makers' section says this:

"4.2 In this agreement, "Publishing Period" means, in respect of each Uploaded Work, a period of no less than five (5) years commencing on the date the relevant Track embodying that Uploaded Work is uploaded to the Website, and continuing until the last day of the Accounting Period in which you have given us 21 days notice of your intention to terminate this agreement, provided the five (5) year period has first elapsed since the Uploaded Work was uploaded. The Publishing Period shall also terminate if we permanently remove that Uploaded Work from the Website."

So please tell me (and anyone else here that might be just as confused), If the copyright is based on the UPLOADED WORK...does that not mean the track that I submit from my computer to the site...BEFORE it can even be considered for a PROJECT?



Also, according to section 9.1 of this same agreement, only Humtoo (notice the word `we', not `you' ) can remove a song and terminate the remainder of the 5 year publishing term:

"(ii) we remove the Track from the Website (in which case, if the Track is removed permanently, the Publishing Period for the relevant Uploaded Work shall cease)"
--------

For me, the deal breaker was what you told me in our personal communication. When I asked (on April 7th):
"So...just by uploading a single track to your site...even if I never get a `project', I would be assigning publishing rights to you for five years?!?!?!?!?"

You responded (also on April 7th):

"Hi Steve,

Yes that is correct. From our how it works section:

http://www.humtoo.com/how-it-works.asp?HIWPageID=3

The reason for this publishing deal for all tracks? In the very near future all tracks that are unsuccessful for the first project that they are pitched for will be entered into the HUMTOO music library. We publish all tracks uploaded to the site as they will all either end up winning a project through the site or end up in the library that we administer, publish and actively promote. Any track uploaded to the site is also always in the pool of available tracks and can be attached and reattached to any project on the site at will. This gives you flexibility to pitch your tracks as you see fit and also have the tracks available as part of a rapidly growing library...

All information is freely available there - but should you have questions, feel free to email us."

Hmmm.."We publish all tracks uploaded to the site as they will all either end up winning a project through the site or end up in the library that we administer, publish and actively promote."

So how can anyone upload a track and not have you take the publishing...for 5 years?

Am I the only one that doesn't understand this????





Posted By: humtoo

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/16/09 03:54 AM

Hi Steve,

Yes - the window was (and is still open on my machine) :-) I'll keep it open for a while now so I can answer any other questions you might have...

I'm not going to get into an argument with you - I respect your point of view and your want to find answers - we are NOT out to trick anyone into anything.

If you try it - you will find you can remove a track at ease until it enters the library.

If you just want to upload tracks to your profile and not pitch them for projects (to use the site as a resume-style thing) you can and you can remove those tracks at any time.

Like I said in my previous messages - it makes no sense for us to publish a library that isn't on our site - so we won't publish things until they are in our library (which happens either manually or by completing a pitch for a project). Try it - it is there right now...

Publishing only comes into when you start using the library part of the site - either the library itself or the marketplace.

I agree - just reading the contract could be confusing. Like I have tried to explain to you - just reading the contract does not explain how the site functions. Clause 4 + 9 are an agreement to allow us to publish you and how they agreement covers termination of the agreement. Until we DO publish you - then none of it applies and we're very public about when we will publish you.

Yes you give us permission to publish anything you upload to the site - but we also give you permission to remove it until it enters the library. If it is removed, why would we publish it?

If you don't want to be a part of a music library (as some don't) then just don't use the site. There aren't many music libraries out there that don't involve publishing deals.

However like I said - you can just upload tracks to use HUMTOO to publicise yourself (but Myspace is a larger and better established method for doing that) and we are offering collaborations and remixes without any publishing being involved.

If what you're after is just a music promotion page - then Myspace is for you.

If you're interested in a music library site that gives a fantastic music library deal for its members and is working very hard to build the best music library site around - come and have a look at us.

The big problem is because we are an online site - I think you are confusing the two - we are a music library - we publish your tracks as you will (hopefully) end up being placed in productions through our library.

All the best,

Jason.
Posted By: Steve P.

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/16/09 03:57 AM

Originally Posted by humtoo
Hi Steve + all,
...Yes technically we are able to register your tracks on upload - but as I tried to explain - we don't. Our contract exists this way as it is an easier point to quantify when a track enters our system. It does not mean that we register it then.

No copyright has been transferred until we register the track with APRA (our PRO). You have given us the right to, but nothing has been transferred at that point. There is no point at all in us registering at point of upload when you can delete your track from our site until it enters the library. We won't be marketing a library that does not exist on our site - there would be very little point in that. ...


Jason,

I just read through your agreement again (and printed it out for reference) and didn't see any place where I can delete a track after it has been uploaded. Where exactly is that information located in your Contributing Music Maker agreement?

Posted By: Steve P.

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/16/09 04:06 AM

Again, with all due respect...if you're saying that the agreement and/or contract "can be confusing" and that there are things that are not in writing (i.e. how to delete a track before the publishing rights have been transfered), wouldn't it be in your best interest to put those in writing? It might prevent those that are skeptical from just walking away.

Posted By: humtoo

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/16/09 04:07 AM

Hi Steve,

It isn't - it is in our how it works. The termination part of the agreement only applies to tracks that we have published.

If your track is deleted before we publish it, then the termination part of the agreement doesn't apply as your tracks were never published by us in the first place.

The instructions from the site that explain how to delete tracks:
http://www.humtoo.com/how-it-works.asp?HIWPageID=31#ManagingTracks

The publishing page from the site:
http://www.humtoo.com/how-it-works.asp?HIWPageID=55

Cheers,

Jason.
Posted By: humtoo

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/16/09 04:11 AM

Steve, likewise with all due respect, I keep saying - all of this IS in writing - please read the the how it works before claiming that any of this is not clearly spelled out for our members.

It is confusing to JUST read the contract as nobody puts the entire specification and manual to anything in a contract - read the manual - then the contract.

We've spent a lot of time and effort making sure that it is all transparent. You are reading half the information then complaining that you don't understand.

Cheers,

Jason.
Posted By: Steve P.

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/16/09 04:18 AM

ok...But that says absolutely nothing about the control of copyright.

Since you require the user to read and AGREE to the terms of your site, BEFORE a single track is uploaded...FOR WHATEVER REASON the creater might have, There should be information on deleting and copyright control there, don't you think?

I go back to the email from you of April 7th that confims that once a track is UPLOADED...you control the copyright.

I think that I've already taken too much space on this forum, debating an issue that seems to have `no end'.

Continued success with Humtoo.
Posted By: Steve P.

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/16/09 04:23 AM

Originally Posted by humtoo
...We've spent a lot of time and effort making sure that it is all transparent. You are reading half the information then complaining that you don't understand.

Cheers,

Jason.


Complaining because your information is all over the map?!?!

Ok...I guess I was complaining.

*sigh* I defer to your own admission (per the aforementioned email from you on April 7th) that copyright is transfered upon initial upload to your server. Doesn't that occur BEFORE a track can be edited or deleted?

My fingers are tired. Anyone else care to chime in?





Posted By: humtoo

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/16/09 04:28 AM

Hi Steve,

The first line of the publishing page (this page is all about the control copyright):
HUMTOO will exclusively administer the publishing of all tracks that are chosen for a project or enter into the HUMTOO music library for a period of 5 years after which you can opt any of your tracks out by writing to us.

I would hope people would read the site info before just uploading their tracks - and hey - if they don't they can delete them before the project ends.

BUT I agree - we're going around in circles. Please feel free to email me if you'd like any further questions about the site - I'm very happy to discuss any issues with you and also any improvements you can see that would benefit music makers.

All the best with your music also,

Jason.
Posted By: humtoo

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/16/09 04:34 AM

Hi Steve,

One last one:

"*sigh* I defer to your own admission (per the aforementioned email from you on April 7th) that copyright is transfered upon initial upload to your server. Doesn't that occur BEFORE a track can be edited or deleted?"

OK - one more time. Yes - we CAN register at that point. But as we explain in our how it works - we register them when they enter the library. it makes no sense to register stuff that is deleted from the site.

The contract merely covers our right to register - it does not cover what we register. That information is publicly available in our how it works.

Cheers and all the best!

Jason.
Posted By: Steve P.

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/16/09 04:58 AM

The information publicly available in your How It Works section is just as cryptic.

Why is it that when reading through the initial membership agreement (that is where people would actually begin, would they not), you only talk about the Project Maker member. I didn't see anything that talks about the Contributing Music Maker member. So, where would a person that wants to join as a CMM, find their membership agreement?

My suggestion for ways to improve your site, would include; making it easier for those of us that really do want to provide music...to get the whole story in one place. Having to jump all over the place, to get all of your terms and conditions, to make sure we know WHEN we turn over our copyright control, seems...pretty inefficient.

Posted By: Everett Adams

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/16/09 04:42 PM

I'm a bit confused. If we turn over the copyright to humtoo, does that mean that we can not put this music on another music library site, or pitch it too a publisher or artist? Do you, humtoo tie up that song from any other use by the writer for five years? If it only means that you need permission to use that song for five years in your library, that I could agree with, but I would not agree with you freezing it exclusively from any other use, such as recording it or being used by another library.
Posted By: Steve P.

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/16/09 08:46 PM

Everett,

According to section 4 of their Contributing Music Maker agreement, the answer certainly `seems' to be...yes.

It says that you grant them an EXCLUSIVE LICENCE throughout the world and for the 5 year publishing period.

I stopped back by their website this morning, but...it's down for server upgrades. smile

Maybe they're re-wording some of their language as well...making it easier to understand.

Posted By: John Lawrence Schick

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/16/09 09:01 PM

HUMTOO will exclusively administer the publishing of all tracks that are chosen for a project or enter into the HUMTOO music library for a period of 5 years after which you can opt any of your tracks out by writing to us

Hi Jason,

I'm just wondering what you have against non-exclusive agreements. The majority of music libraries are using it today.

I don't see where you'd have anything to lose as far as film and TV placements with such an agreement. And your members would feel more secure in entering into a non-exclusive agreement.

Best, John
Posted By: John Lawrence Schick

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/17/09 04:54 AM

Hmm... maybe Jason will address my question tomorrow. I'd really like to know the benefits of an exclusive agreement with a film music library.

Best, John
Posted By: Steve P.

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/17/09 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick
Hmm... maybe Jason will address my question tomorrow. I'd really like to know the benefits of an exclusive agreement with a film music library.

Best, John


John,

You might want to make yourself a sandwich...while you wait. Their site is still down, as of this morning.

Posted By: John Lawrence Schick

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/17/09 08:13 PM

Maybe a lettuce, tomato, and cheese on rye... Sounds good. Thanks Steve!

John
Posted By: Steve P.

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/17/09 08:21 PM

Don't forget the pickle!
Posted By: John Lawrence Schick

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/17/09 08:25 PM

Steve, I eat a kosher dill every day at 2PM - duh.
Posted By: Steve P.

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/17/09 08:32 PM

You brilliant composer types have the weirdest quirks.

I do hope that Jason can speak to your question. It certainly seems to make sense...although I'm sure that I have ostracized myself from every becoming a Contributing Music Maker with them.
Posted By: John Lawrence Schick

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/17/09 08:44 PM

I doubt you'll be ostracized Steve. Jason seems to be one of the level-headed businessmen types that wouldn't be offended by tough questions. How's that for sucking-up?

John

Posted By: John Lawrence Schick

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/22/09 02:07 AM

Well, this is the last time I'm bumping this up. Apparently Jason isn't talkin'.

To make it more convenient for you, I'll post the question again:

Hi Jason,

I'm just wondering what you have against non-exclusive agreements. The majority of music libraries are using it today.

I don't see where you'd have anything to lose as far as film and TV placements with such an agreement. And your members would feel more secure in entering into a non-exclusive agreement.

Best, John

Posted By: Steve P.

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/22/09 07:09 PM

Hmmm...I just don't understand why Jason's not been back to respond to your question. Their site was down for a couple of days, but it's back online now.

Posted By: John Lawrence Schick

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/22/09 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by Steve P.
Hmmm...I just don't understand why Jason's not been back to respond to your question. Their site was down for a couple of days, but it's back online now.


Yeah, I even sent him a PM. Chicken - buck buck buck buck!

John grin
Posted By: Steve P.

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 04/22/09 08:21 PM

You could always try: talktous@humtoo.com

Or...just save the keystrokes. The silence speaks volumes, IMHO.
Posted By: Dave Rice

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 05/31/09 03:23 PM

Hi Guys:

Sorry to arrive at the "waltz" so late. Has anyone here heard of their PRO organization "APRA?" I'll try to find my music biz book and see if they are listed.

I'm with you in wondering why they want a five year exclusive deal for their library? I realize they don't have to exercise that option... but, from the sound of it, they can "lock up your song" for five years... if they want to do so.

Interesting thread. Thanks for bringing it up Nadia... and thanks to you, Steve for your exchange with Humtoo.

Dave
Posted By: John Lawrence Schick

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 05/31/09 04:24 PM

Hey Dave,

Had to Google for APRA. It's a performing rights association that serves New Zealand and Australia members.

Here's a link: http://www.apra.co.nz/

Best, John smile
Posted By: Tom Shea

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 05/31/09 06:19 PM

This is an interesting statement that the humtoo rep says:

"I agree - just reading the contract could be confusing. Like I have tried to explain to you - just reading the contract does not explain how the site functions."

It seems to me tht he is saying is that what they do is different than what they can do under the terms of the contract. This is no comfort to me. One needs to consider what they are allowed to do and what rights one gives up under the contract.

Tom
Posted By: Tom Shea

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 05/31/09 06:25 PM

As for me, I would not agree to their contact. I am bothered by the exclusive rights for five years. I am also bothered by the confusion regarding the explanations of their operations compared to the contract.

Tom
Posted By: Steve P.

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 06/01/09 11:01 PM

I received this today from Humtoo:

The Library is a fantastic resource for content creators to get their hands on our members music quickly and cost effectively, and also for our Music Making community to earn money in the form of performance royalties.

We’ve made some some adjustments to our user agreement to accommodate the library, so please have a look through the How It Works section carefully and email us if you’ve any questions. (membershipagreement.humtoo.com)


I don't know what has been changed in the agreeement, but they still want 5 years exclusive.

Posted By: John Lawrence Schick

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 06/01/09 11:06 PM

Yeah Steve, and the "5 years exclusive" was the bug in the serum.

John smile
Posted By: 1hotroddie

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 06/07/09 05:08 AM

Hello everyone!

WOW! First off - Kudos to all of you for reading the FINE PRINT.

What a wonderful exchange of information.

Exactly what this site is for.

Although I'm only a voyuer in the music business, I certainly read these forums with a voracious appetite...keep on keepin' on.

Posted By: 1hotroddie

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 06/08/09 05:15 AM

touche`
Posted By: Matt Sage

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 06/09/09 01:20 AM

Good work, you lot. If they want 5 years exclusive (pretty laughable), they should say that in the first paragraph in big bold letters. Anything else is just a teensy bit sneaky. And for that reason, I'm out!
Posted By: Dave Rice

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 06/10/09 01:55 AM

Hi John:

Thanks for reminding me about APRA. I had planned to "Google" it and just got carried away doing a new song or two.

I too, have found Nadia's thread about HUMTOO very interesting. It seems that just about everyone of these outfits pretending to look for songs have a ton of "legalese" tanktraps embedded in their fine print. Sad!

Steve's exchange with Jason at Humtoo has been very enlightening. Kudos to all concerned.

Dave

http://www.ShowCaseYourMusic.com/DaveRice
Posted By: T_Music_Traveler

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 06/10/09 03:27 AM

Greetings Folks!
Please allow me to "chime in".
First, read the SGA contract. It is the industry standard for music publishing in the US.
http://www.songwritersguild.com/contract.pdf

A 5 year reversion clause for unplaced work is very fair and the purpose is to protect the wannabe composer from falling into a conflict of interest. Jason didn't say so but if humtoo doesn't believe they can place your music I seriously doubt they'll add it to their library. Why would they? The "content creators" or project managers PAY to use the service and expect to hear quality music in return. If the humtoo library is full of garbage they'll take their time and money elsewhere. Moreover, "Subject to rights of your PRO..." publishers can be changed. Contact your PRO or your attorney for advisement. If you don't have an attorney... one should be commissioned before further questioning:). If you don't belong to a PRO you can't post your music on humtoo anyway! So... do your homework... or get a lawyer... but don't quit your day job!

Finally, Jason answered your questions courteously and professionally. Steve, you were being hard nosed and you owe him an apology.
T
Posted By: John Lawrence Schick

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 06/10/09 03:41 AM

Jason didn't answer my question T. Maybe you can answer it since it's obvious you're connected to humtoo in some way. Here it is again:

Hi Jason,

I'm just wondering what you have against non-exclusive agreements. The majority of music libraries are using it today.

I don't see where you'd have anything to lose as far as film and TV placements with such an agreement. And your members would feel more secure in entering into a non-exclusive agreement.


Best, John
Posted By: Steve P.

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 06/10/09 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by T_Music_Traveler
Greetings Folks!
Please allow me to "chime in".
First, read the SGA contract. It is the industry standard for music publishing in the US.
http://www.songwritersguild.com/contract.pdf

A 5 year reversion clause for unplaced work is very fair and the purpose is to protect the wannabe composer from falling into a conflict of interest. Jason didn't say so but if humtoo doesn't believe they can place your music I seriously doubt they'll add it to their library. Why would they? The "content creators" or project managers PAY to use the service and expect to hear quality music in return. If the humtoo library is full of garbage they'll take their time and money elsewhere. Moreover, "Subject to rights of your PRO..." publishers can be changed. Contact your PRO or your attorney for advisement. If you don't have an attorney... one should be commissioned before further questioning:). If you don't belong to a PRO you can't post your music on humtoo anyway! So... do your homework... or get a lawyer... but don't quit your day job!

Finally, Jason answered your questions courteously and professionally. Steve, you were being hard nosed and you owe him an apology.
T


Hi T,

Thank you for the additional information. My apologies to Jason, if in fact he feels that I was being hard nosed.
Posted By: John Lawrence Schick

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 06/10/09 05:04 AM

Mr. T or Jason,

I just read the contract.

I think if you do indeed pay an advance against royalties, that would balance out the exclusive agreement and the five year reversion clause. Though I think a three year reversion is more in line with most libraries.

I would consider this a "good faith" payment. I doubt any publisher would pay an advance unless the publisher was fairly certain the music would be placed.

John smile
Posted By: T_Music_Traveler

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 06/10/09 05:57 PM

No John,
I'm not associated with humtoo in any way. So, I can't answer your question on behalf of that organization. Only from my own perspective that a "non-exclusive" agreement isn't a publishing contract. Any publishing contract must require exclusive control because the publisher receive its funds from the PRO just like we do and there cannot be a fuzzy line between who owns what share and who doesn't.

Yes, an advance would be nice and 3 yrs would be excellent! (5 years is "fair".)

Steve,
I still think Jason's responses on this string were sincere. Had he gotten defensive or argumentative I'd have lost respect. I've only read all the "How To" section once and don't recall every detail but everything Jason told you is contained either within the terms of use or the publishing agreement. In other words, I'm not perceiving any falsehood on his part. Of course, I've no idea how Jason "feels" so maybe you don't "owe" him an apology. I can only tell you how I feet and it seemed to me you were being nit-picky and beating him up. Although I admire your passion defending musicians rights and appreciate your considerate response back to me.

Well...,
Is humtoo a "shark"? I don't know... I'm still researching... and found this forum string through a google search. So far, this is the only discussion I've found about it. At least that's says to me there isn't a lot of bad talk going around. Not yet, anyway... I'm not seeing anything unreasonable in the contract or terms of service. It's tougher than what we might hope for and a little less than ideal but my phone isn't ringing off the hook with better offers either. Does that mean my music is bad? Well... if so, who cares who owns the publishing rights?

I haven't decided if I'll place anything with them or not. I think that will depend more on the "project" than the publisher and what other potential there is for the song. I mean,,, What's the song doing now? What will it be doing in 5 yrs? If I think I have the perfect piece for a fit in the right project I'll probably risk pulling something out of my archives that would otherwise continue to collect dust. Will I give them what I perceive to be a top40 hit??? Probably not in the beginning but if they can take an old song previously rejected by others and make a profit of it... well... yes, I'd put more in their library.

The only drawback I really see right now is that if humtoo claims publishing rights to a song it might take away a "bargaining chip" for getting my work placed elsewhere. I mean, if a "Major" was interested in the same song it might be an incentive for them to sign me if the publishing rights were still available. Then again, even getting material heard by one of the majors is a daunting task. We all know the name of that tune. It's "who ya know" man! I hate that!

Anyway... I'm going to dig deeper into humtoo and see what more I can learn about it. I'm most interested in the "project makers". Who does Jason know, so to speak. Well... let's see if we can find out?

Thank you all for responding to my post. We here are among the family of creative genius. It's a pleasure making your acquaintance.
Posted By: Dave Rice

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 06/10/09 11:08 PM

Greetings, T_Music:

Glad to have you aboard. Thanks for your input on this interesting thread. My version of "This Business of Music" (admittedly quite old) does not list a specified term in the copy of the SGA Exclusive Contract. Perhaps you have a newer version? Forgive me, I did not click on the link you provided since you are not a regular here... yet! I certainly hope you will continue to participate. I'll let Steve decide for himself if he thinks an apology is needed... LOL!

I would attempt to shorten any specified term longer than two years unless the outfit offering the contract could provide a real good reason for needing longer... and I would certainly want to see a reversion clause to my liking before I would sign on the dotted line. In this biz, just about everything is negotiable.

Once again, no argument intended, I'm simply looking for clarity and trying to make you feel welcome. Opinions, whether differing from mine or not, are always welcome.

Best,

Dave Rice

http://www.ShowCaseYourMusic.com/DaveRice
Posted By: John Lawrence Schick

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 06/10/09 11:14 PM

"Any publishing contract must require exclusive control because the publisher receive its funds from the PRO just like we do and there cannot be a fuzzy line between who owns what share and who doesn't"-T

That's why the publisher changes titles - to assure he/she receives royalties for their placements.

"non-exclusive" agreement isn't a publishing contract T

That's odd; I wonder what I've been signing all these years?

John smile


Posted By: John Lawrence Schick

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 06/10/09 11:20 PM

Oh, btw, welcome aboard T!

Best, John smile
Posted By: Hummingbird

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 06/10/09 11:29 PM

The exclusive deals I've signed to date have been 2 years. However, I also feel that, given that things move very slowly in this industry, 5 years exclusive, with a good active library isn't a bad thing. I agree every opp needs to researched effectively. But, as a good friend of mine says... sign the tracks exclusively for 5 years, if the deal is fair... and get to work on writing more.
Posted By: John Lawrence Schick

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 06/10/09 11:55 PM

I've signed both, however I lean towards the non-exclusive more these days. Many of these libraries have thousands of tracks, some like DSM Producers have hundreds of thousands. Easy for your tracks to get buried in bulk.

However; I still sign exclusive agreements with the ones that have already placed my tracks. They have a proven record.

And yes, I still consider both agreements, if they show promise, or come with a "good faith" royalty advance.

Best, John smile



Posted By: T_Music_Traveler

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 06/11/09 02:48 AM

Greetings all... Thank you for the warm welcome.

Dave- The SGA contract hasn't changed in 30 years. It's still circa 1978! You can go to the guilds home page and find their link to the contract in the left navigation pane.

Posted By: T_Music_Traveler

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 06/11/09 02:50 AM

Greetings all... Thank you for the warm welcome.

Dave- The SGA contract hasn't changed in 30 years. It's still circa 1978! You can go to the guilds home page and find their link to the contract in the left navigation pane.

John- I must have a different definition of "non-exclusive". Do you mean "non-broadcast" license? Otherwise it would be self-publishing, wouldn't it? hmmm... I wonder if we're talking about the same thing or if my perception is flawed?

Hi Vikki- Online music libraries are totally new to me and this may be where my perceptions here are weak. I've always used the traditional methods of pitching tunes to publishers via snail-mail and the only "DEALS" I've gotten were "works for hire" but they paid pretty good.

I spent a few hours on humtoo and registered there but didn't uploaded any tracks. The site is very small. Less than 50 composers and less than 1000 uploaded tracks. Maybe a good ground floor opportunity? I only saw 2 "songs". The rest are instrumentals and most are short clips or samples. The clients seem to be independent film and TV producers. Nothing major that I could see. Maybe down the road for them? It did have a pretty good search engine though for finding specific styles, genre, instrumentation, mood, etc... The whole thing seems oriented to background music for video or animation. I only saw one project that sparked any interest in me but they want full orchestration and I don't have that capability at the moment. So...

Anyway... that's my 2 cents for today.

Jack
Posted By: John Lawrence Schick

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 06/11/09 03:28 AM

Online music libraries are totally new to me and this may be where my perceptions here are weak - T

Yes, that's probably why we didn't connect.

A film music library's publishing contracts can have an exclusive clause or a non-exclusive clause.

The exclusive clause gives the sole right to the publisher to permit advertisers, television, cables, radio, film, etc. to use the writer's tracks - with agreed upon compensation to its writers.

The only difference with a non-exclusive contract is that the writer doesn't give up ownership or the copyright of the master recording. The non-exclusive publisher will change titles of the writer's tracks, to ensure all royalties generated by their placements on TV, film, advertising, etc. will be funneled appropriately.

In a non-exclusive agreement, the writer still owns the right to the recordings, and can exploit his recordings as he/she sees fit. I have some tracks that are published by several music libraries (non-exclusively of course).

Bottom-line; both contracts are basically the same except for the exclusive/non-exclusive clause.
Posted By: T_Music_Traveler

Re: http://www.humtoo.com/ - 06/13/09 12:13 PM

Well...

I've decided to be a guinea-pig and upload a song to humtoo. It's an old one that's been in my portfolio for 20 years but I think it's a good fit for one of the projects there... " A Mans Private Hell"...IF the filmmaker sees the same vision? If not... Well... humtoo will have publishing rights for the next 5 years... and who knows? Maybe they'll find a good home for it. It isn't accomplishing anything sitt'in in me 'ol gig bag:).

So... wish me luck... AND... I'll keep y'all posted...

Jack Anthony Jory
aka T Music Traveler:)
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