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Jody's Mis-Information About The Music Business

Posted By: Jody Whitesides

Jody's Mis-Information About The Music Business - 11/05/17 04:40 PM

Started a thread for all those willing to explain the mis-information about the music business that I've been spreading. Fire away!
Posted By: Barry David Butler

Re: Jody's Mis-Information About The Music Business - 11/05/17 05:23 PM

Not sure what you mean?
Posted By: Roy Cooper

Re: Jody's Mis-Information About The Music Business - 11/05/17 05:29 PM

As far as I have seen Jody, you have been spot on, but none of us know it all friend.

God Bless Roy and Helen
Posted By: Brian Austin Whitney

Re: Jody's Mis-Information About The Music Business - 11/05/17 07:46 PM

I haven't notice any issues aside from a few topics we simply disagree on, which doesn't make either side "misinformation" but rather different opinions. There was a time when people were allowed to have more than 1 official view of everything.

Brian
Posted By: John Lawrence Schick

Re: Jody's Mis-Information About The Music Business - 11/05/17 08:03 PM

This may concern Donna Duchess' thread about publisher's royalties: http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1131883/admin-service-needed.html#Post1131883

John smile
Posted By: MidniteBob

Re: Jody's Mis-Information About The Music Business - 11/05/17 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick
This may concern Donna Duchess' thread about publisher's royalties: http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1131883/admin-service-needed.html#Post1131883

John smile


Hey, Jody...I think that Mr. Schick nailed it!

Please, please, please!!!! Don't stop offering any info into the Forums here that you can!

RAMBLE ALERT! As a telephone technician, in 1996, I made a bunch of money working on "Pay Phones"....Pay Phones??? Yes, those coin operated telecommunication thingies that could be found on every corner....Has anyone seen one lately?

As a songwriter, in the year 2,000, there were still over 2,000 "Staff writers" employed in Nashville...Has anyone met a Staff Writer lately?

As a Screenplay writer, with moderate success.....

Bottom line?

In this day and age, any musical Artist, who hopes to make money, but is playing by yesterday's rules...And when I say "yesterday", I mean that literally, well that ship sailed earlier this morning.

END RAMBLE

Things change, in EVERY WORKING OCCUPATION!!!!

But when it comes to the "changing" in the Musical World?

I can't think of any better resource for anyone these days, than the exchanges that you & Brian, and MAB when he drops in, keep on discussing on the various JPF threads!

A priceless bundle of information for those who are paying attention!

Thank you!!!

Midnite
Posted By: Jody Whitesides

Re: Jody's Mis-Information About The Music Business - 11/06/17 01:48 AM

Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
I haven't notice any issues aside from a few topics we simply disagree on, which doesn't make either side "misinformation" but rather different opinions. There was a time when people were allowed to have more than 1 official view of everything.

It was brought to my attention that I am spreading a plethora of mis-information about the music business on JPF. I figured I'd save the time and create a thread so that all the incorrect information I'm giving can be outed and corrected.
Posted By: Brian Austin Whitney

Re: Jody's Mis-Information About The Music Business - 11/06/17 02:16 AM

Well you are Jody. It is actually spelled "misinformation" isn't it? See.... told ya. =)

I'll take a look at the post in question, this should be a laugh....

Brian
Posted By: Jody Whitesides

Re: Jody's Mis-Information About The Music Business - 11/06/17 03:33 AM

Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
Well you are Jody. It is actually spelled "misinformation" isn't it? See.... told ya. =)

I'll take a look at the post in question, this should be a laugh....

Brian

I'm aware. I'm merely parroting the source. Gotta have a sense of humor about it. smile
Posted By: Dave Rice

Re: Jody's Mis-Information About The Music Business - 11/06/17 03:56 AM

Hi Jody, Brian and fellow participants:

Jody, I hope you know your opinion and information is important to your fellow songwriters, artists and others in the biz... or those of us knocking on the door to attempt entry. While it often appears that you and my Pro (ASCAP) are often on different sides of the issue (particularly streaming) I am often confused by mixed signals they sometimes send... some of which tend to contradict the previous day's newsletter.

Most of us know the music industry is in a new state of turmoil and that most of us do not have the time or resources to monitor every facet of all the new assaults on what used to be a set of rules written in stone... at least until another international agreement became imposed upon us.

Please never take my posts to be intended to be petty, snide or personal when it comes to you and what you share with us. Like most folks, I don't care much for change unless I can clearly see that it improves the pathway for success to so many of us struggling to find a spot at the trough at the base of the music pyramid.

Keep that information coming. If I (or others) find information that seems to disagree, we owe it to each other to share. Since you appear to be on the receiving end of some monetary compensation from your musical efforts, I would tend to believe your information is extremely valuable to us... if for no other reason as to "sound the alarm" and let us know that change is at hand.

The concept of streaming is foreign to me, seems difficult to track, and thus account for fully from the perspective of one in the lower echelons. Thank you for caring enough to share your input with us.

Regards, ----Dave
Posted By: Jody Whitesides

Re: Jody's Mis-Information About The Music Business - 11/06/17 04:38 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rice
Jody, I hope you know your opinion and information is important to your fellow songwriters, artists and others in the biz... or those of us knocking on the door to attempt entry. While it often appears that you and my Pro (ASCAP) are often on different sides of the issue (particularly streaming) I am often confused by mixed signals they sometimes send... some of which tend to contradict the previous day's newsletter.

Most of us know the music industry is in a new state of turmoil and that most of us do not have the time or resources to monitor every facet of all the new assaults on what used to be a set of rules written in stone... at least until another international agreement became imposed upon us.

Please never take my posts to be intended to be petty, snide or personal when it comes to you and what you share with us. Like most folks, I don't care much for change unless I can clearly see that it improves the pathway for success to so many of us struggling to find a spot at the trough at the base of the music pyramid.

Keep that information coming. If I (or others) find information that seems to disagree, we owe it to each other to share. Since you appear to be on the receiving end of some monetary compensation from your musical efforts, I would tend to believe your information is extremely valuable to us... if for no other reason as to "sound the alarm" and let us know that change is at hand.

The concept of streaming is foreign to me, seems difficult to track, and thus account for fully from the perspective of one in the lower echelons. Thank you for caring enough to share your input with us.

No worries Dave.

I recently participated in the Grammy Advocacy day about meeting with my House of Reps rep over music related bills going thru the house at the moment. I even spoke to them about the dangers of the consent decree issue, which doesn't actually affect me as a SESAC member, but I think it sucks for ASCAP and BMI members - so I asked my rep to not side with the tech companies. Also, the big thing the G.A. group was working for was the bill that is supposed to remove the discounts streaming services get on royalty rates. Which is probably what ASCAP is also wanting.

Streaming is actually easier to track than radio. Why? Because metadata follows any song around, provided you have correctly created and submitted your metadata. But it still requires you to be on top of things with your PROs and other agencies that collect royalties.

And yes, I am on the receiving end of monetary compensation for my music. I take the business of it very seriously as its my source of income.

In my mind, more musicians that consider themselves professional and make their living from music should be participating in meeting their federal representatives. There is strength in numbers.
Posted By: Marc Barnette

Re: Jody's Mis-Information About The Music Business - 11/06/17 01:44 PM

"As a songwriter, in the year 2,000, there were still over 2,000 "Staff writers" employed in Nashville...Has anyone met a Staff Writer lately?"

I guess I'm like Beetlejuice in that when someone mentions my name, I feel summoned. Hey folks.

I don't speak too much on the issue of streaming, because that is not my end of the industry. I am in the teaching, creation and development of songs, writers and artists, and in helping other people find their footing and direction. Once they get to the point of releasing material, dealing with power players in the industry, producers, publishers, labels, mangers, etc. that is the domain of other people, and while I still get cuts, and have things going on, it is not my primary focus.

I can speak to things like "staff deals", the modern processes the industry here in Nashville use and various challenges we all go through. The thing about streaming and the current payments (or lack thereof) in the music business is that there are very few people happy with anything, being paid much from anything. My favorite line is:

"How can you tell you're in Nashville?"
"Your UBER or LYFT driver had "SONG OF THE YEAR" two years ago."

Not far off the mark. I know four number one writers that drive for those two companies.

As far as the "2000" staff writers in 2000, that is really a large overestimate. The high point was about 1460 in 2005, I believe. (Numbers from BMI, ASCAP and NSAI), but started decreasing drastically from that point. It was leveling off leading up to that and many "deals" were not what most people think of "deals." People weren't being paid money to write, getting their demos paid for, etc. Most were independent contractors, with relationships or "exclusive representation deals, with publishers representing them but no money exchanged. Some had single or a few collections of songs represented but probably could not be considered "staff."

The numbers now are closer to less than 300. And going down all the time. I had a publisher in the late 90's tell me that within 10-15 years there would be no more staff deals. He was pretty close to right.

Many publishers started disappearing at that point also, and more and more went to "song plugging fee for service."
Some who even had hit songs on the radio did not have an actual "deal", yet had some special deal worked out with a publisher. Even more would have deals with these "CANNE Millionaire" companies, (wealthy people that would come in, throw a lot of money around, and then disappear in the middle of the night when they got bored and go to something else. leaving the company broke, the writers and staff unemployed, and buildings empty.)

The "deal" of today is almost exclusively some young artist, usually under 25, and a few of the experienced, hit writers who have their own publishing companies. If you have a shot at a record deal, you have a shot at a publishing deal. It is about ARTIST BRANDING AND FAN BASE. If they look attractive, build extensive followings (OUTSIDE OF NASHVILLE), have money backing you, or are of a particular interest to a power player, you have shots at deals. But it is not always money. That usually comes AFTER things get rolling.

Interestingly, we are going through our own "Harvey Wienstein" scandal here, in that one of the most powerful publicist, manager, agents in town, has just had a number of young male acts, accuse him of trading favors for sex.
Has caused his business to shut down, and his clients, like Dolly Parton, Kid Rock, and hundreds of others, to quit him. A big broo ha ha.

So that is more or less the state of "deals" these days. Once again, as songs themselves lost their value, the methods of promotion of songs and building artists, have changed. It's actually much the way it has always been, just the competition has increased. Streaming has played a huge part in that. Some people are doing it well, most are just trying to find a way to get and keep a public bored in seconds, interested enough to actually build a career.

But I can tell you that if you want to meet a "staff writer" it is pretty easy. Most of the bar tenders, waiters, waitresses, valet parking lot attendants, are those people. Just talk to them when they are waiting on you.

MAB
Posted By: Brian Austin Whitney

Re: Jody's Mis-Information About The Music Business - 11/06/17 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
"As a songwriter, in the year 2,000, there were still over 2,000 "Staff writers" employed in Nashville...Has anyone met a Staff Writer lately?"

I guess I'm like Beetlejuice in that when someone mentions my name, I feel summoned. Hey folks.

I don't speak too much on the issue of streaming, because that is not my end of the industry. I am in the teaching, creation and development of songs, writers and artists, and in helping other people find their footing and direction. Once they get to the point of releasing material, dealing with power players in the industry, producers, publishers, labels, mangers, etc. that is the domain of other people, and while I still get cuts, and have things going on, it is not my primary focus.

I can speak to things like "staff deals", the modern processes the industry here in Nashville use and various challenges we all go through. The thing about streaming and the current payments (or lack thereof) in the music business is that there are very few people happy with anything, being paid much from anything. My favorite line is:

"How can you tell you're in Nashville?"
"Your UBER or LYFT driver had "SONG OF THE YEAR" two years ago."

Not far off the mark. I know four number one writers that drive for those two companies.

As far as the "2000" staff writers in 2000, that is really a large overestimate. The high point was about 1460 in 2005, I believe. (Numbers from BMI, ASCAP and NSAI), but started decreasing drastically from that point. It was leveling off leading up to that and many "deals" were not what most people think of "deals." People weren't being paid money to write, getting their demos paid for, etc. Most were independent contractors, with relationships or "exclusive representation deals, with publishers representing them but no money exchanged. Some had single or a few collections of songs represented but probably could not be considered "staff."

The numbers now are closer to less than 300. And going down all the time. I had a publisher in the late 90's tell me that within 10-15 years there would be no more staff deals. He was pretty close to right.

Many publishers started disappearing at that point also, and more and more went to "song plugging fee for service."
Some who even had hit songs on the radio did not have an actual "deal", yet had some special deal worked out with a publisher. Even more would have deals with these "CANNE Millionaire" companies, (wealthy people that would come in, throw a lot of money around, and then disappear in the middle of the night when they got bored and go to something else. leaving the company broke, the writers and staff unemployed, and buildings empty.)

The "deal" of today is almost exclusively some young artist, usually under 25, and a few of the experienced, hit writers who have their own publishing companies. If you have a shot at a record deal, you have a shot at a publishing deal. It is about ARTIST BRANDING AND FAN BASE. If they look attractive, build extensive followings (OUTSIDE OF NASHVILLE), have money backing you, or are of a particular interest to a power player, you have shots at deals. But it is not always money. That usually comes AFTER things get rolling.

Interestingly, we are going through our own "Harvey Wienstein" scandal here, in that one of the most powerful publicist, manager, agents in town, has just had a number of young male acts, accuse him of trading favors for sex.
Has caused his business to shut down, and his clients, like Dolly Parton, Kid Rock, and hundreds of others, to quit him. A big broo ha ha.

So that is more or less the state of "deals" these days. Once again, as songs themselves lost their value, the methods of promotion of songs and building artists, have changed. It's actually much the way it has always been, just the competition has increased. Streaming has played a huge part in that. Some people are doing it well, most are just trying to find a way to get and keep a public bored in seconds, interested enough to actually build a career.

But I can tell you that if you want to meet a "staff writer" it is pretty easy. Most of the bar tenders, waiters, waitresses, valet parking lot attendants, are those people. Just talk to them when they are waiting on you.

MAB


Yeah, I hear ya, but I bet there's a bad news side too!
Posted By: Barry David Butler

Re: Jody's Mis-Information About The Music Business - 11/06/17 03:44 PM

The one thing that galls me the most is how every single new artist male or female has their names on the writing credits. I believe that is a joke and it's just so they look like songwriters to their ignorant fans.....The Arts used to mean creativity but I don't see any in Pop or Country Music. Hip hop sucks and even Christian Contemporary has cookie cutter groups and singers all singing the same song but different lyrics and a slight change in melody. I was just listening to the Doobies LISTEN TO THE MUSIC and wish songs and groups like that were produced today....BUT just like America everything is in decline. Remember The Roman Empire??? lol
Posted By: Michael Zaneski

Re: Jody's Mis-Information About The Music Business - 11/06/17 04:57 PM

I'd just like to add that since we all can't really see eachother (cuz it's communication via the Internet) and read eachother's body language and KNOW eachother in more vintage ways, our words have to pick up the slack, to take the place of much of what once was carried by a simple gait or glance or smile and knowing someone more personally. In other words, our character is everything, when it comes to Internet communication and building relationships via the Internet. That's why when someone makes a comment like "you are all misinformation" it can hurt, it can make us angry, and it can lead us to "calling out" the accuser..because like I said..really..all we have is our words, our character, here..and some of us have a body of words that have integrity, like Mr. Whitesides, while the intergrity and character of his accuser remains questionable at best.

Jody, not only is your accuser of questionable intergrity, he's also apparently a coward cuz he hasn't shown up in this thread, or he's too proud to apologize (has he ever? To anyone?), even though he knows he made an over-the-top statement that was quasi-trollish and meant to provoke, cuz he does it often and he knows what he's doing.

Thanks Jody, for having the character to say NO MORE OF THIS..I've wanted to do that on more than one occasion, especially after this same person thought it was really funny to say that he'd like to see half the country (of a particular ideology) all gathering in New Mexico for a convention so that they could all be nuked and gotten rid of. To me, saying that was just as off-color as making a similar remark based on one's religious preference or race. Just heinous..

Mike

Posted By: Marc Barnette

Re: Jody's Mis-Information About The Music Business - 11/06/17 05:18 PM

"The one thing that galls me the most is how every single new artist male or female has their names on the writing credits."

Barry,

Interesting you mention the Doobie Brothers and "LISTEN TO THE MUSIC." Who wrote that? MEMBERS OF THE DOOBIE BROTHERS. Namely Tom Johnston and Pat Simmons. That is what happened to rock coming out of the 60's and beyond. Artists WERE the writers. Now that is the same in country. Most of the songs that are cut, the artist ARE INVOLVED in the writing process. And has been that way for over 20 years.

After the Beatles, there pretty much ceased to be "rock writers" outside of the artists. Now every form of music has followed that. Which is why it is and always will be hard to get songs even considered if the artist wasn't either involved in the writing or the development of the song.

And the current crop of country, with people like CHRIS STAPLETON, KACEY MUSGRAVES, and others, they had CUTS for other artists BEFORE THEY GOT THEIR RECORD DEALS. So even if you don't like a lot of music that is out there, you are in a trend that is nearly a quarter century old. And believe me, the "hating what is on the radio" is the only thing consistent in any of this. The people from the 50;s HATED the people from the 60's. The people from the 60's HATED the people from the 70's. The people from the 70's HATED the people from the 80's. The people from the 80's HATED the people from the 90's. The people from the 90's HATED THE PEOPLE FROM THE EARLY 2000'S AND THE PEOPLE FROM THE EARLY 2000'S HATE THE PEOPLE FROM THE LATER 2000'S.

Hating the music of the generation following you is the ONLY thing that remains consistent. But fortunately, you always have your own records your own ways to get the music that you love. So there you go.

And by the way, I started playing music in 1973 WITH the music of the Doobie Brothers. And there were a LOT of people that HATED THEM TOO.

The more things change.....

MAB
Posted By: Jody Whitesides

Re: Jody's Mis-Information About The Music Business - 11/06/17 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Interestingly, we are going through our own "Harvey Wienstein" scandal here, in that one of the most powerful publicist, manager, agents in town, has just had a number of young male acts, accuse him of trading favors for sex.
Has caused his business to shut down, and his clients, like Dolly Parton, Kid Rock, and hundreds of others, to quit him. A big broo ha ha.

Something I've not expressed to many people, certainly not publicly...

A few years back I was partnered with a very well known producer/promoter. He was my point person attempting to raise investment money to launch a "star" style career. We were going to a meeting with a well known label owner. We parked outside the label office and he proceeded to tell me "If he asks to see your nipples, we are leaving."

Then he explained the environment we were about to walk into. Which didn't really phase me since I lived in Los Angeles.

Long story short, it was a little unnerving, a little bit comical. Fortunately he didn't ask to see my nipples. Unfortunately said executive ended up going to jail for similar offenses and the money went away because of it. That was very disappointing.

That's first hand experience.

Originally Posted by Barry David Butler
The one thing that galls me the most is how every single new artist male or female has their names on the writing credits.

[sarcasm]Yeah, the gall of any artist to have a hand in writing their own material, be it lyrics, melody or chords. Blasphemy![/sarcasm]

As to the rest of your comment Barry, I don't see the lack of creativity that you're stating about Pop (especially in Pop, there's a lot of amazing stuff going on), or Country. Not all Hip Hop sucks. I can't speak for Christian Contemporary as that is off my radar. But then I'm misinforming everyone wink
Posted By: Jody Whitesides

Re: Jody's Mis-Information About The Music Business - 11/06/17 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
That's why when someone makes a comment like "you are all misinformation" it can hurt, it can make us angry, and it can lead us to "calling out" the accuser..because like I said..really..all we have is our words, our character, here..and some of us have a body of words that have integrity, like Mr. Whitesides, while the intergrity and character of his accuser remains questionable at best.

It didn't hurt. But it did make me wonder exactly what misinformation I'm spreading, because I'm not a fan of spreading incorrect information. Which means I wish to be schooled about it.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: Jody's Mis-Information About The Music Business - 11/06/17 06:25 PM

The problem with the Internet in general, is at least 50% of what you read is B.S. And most writing on forums and elsewhere are self serving

Ray is one of the most enjoyable people to read. You have to know shortly into reading his stuff that accuracy and credibility are not at the forefront.

alot of forum members are old timers who used to have ambition of a music career or songwriting career, and still cling to those old models and ideas, now they are here because it helps pass the time, not because they want to publish songs

Write songs, and if you tire of that, talk about writing songs, is the way

Jody is the inly I know who actually makes any money doing it, so if I had to flip a coin on who to listen to, I'd pick one sided Jody coin.

Michael, Ray is harmless, to think otherwise is to be thinking too much
Posted By: John Lawrence Schick

Re: Jody's Mis-Information About The Music Business - 11/06/17 07:51 PM

Most misinformation lies in the opinion zone. And we know how that saying goes - everyone has one. I trust Jody on business matters. I hate the business end, but treat it as a necessary evil. After all that can be done on the business end, it still requires a bit of luck (opinion zone). I've read a large amount of bio's/ auto bio's (mostly from actors, actresses, and composers). Everyone mentioned a turning point in their career that was a matter of being in the right place at the right time. Just finished Harpo Marx's bio. He would watch this man daily in the barber shop making ridiculous faces. He would practice for hours trying to duplicate it. It became his famous funny face. He credits this with making it big in the movies. His bro, Groucho would say if he had to choose between talent or luck, heíd take luck. His gig on "You Bet Your Life" was a stroke of luck being a one-time warm-up for a Bob Hope. A producer saw him and eventually signed him to the show.

I credit my success with as much to do with luck, as talent. More so living in the right era at the right time. The Internet has opened-up many possibilities for the common man that lives miles away from the action. So why am I saying this? This happens to be one area where Jody & I don't see exactly eye-to-eye,i.e., on the matter of luck. The other disagreement we had was in the non-exclusive/ re-title contract agreements. Though I've relented 80% to Jody's opinion on this. And donít want to open this debate up again. eek

So let the opinions roll. And double/triple check the facts. And know the difference between them.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Jody Whitesides

Re: Jody's Mis-Information About The Music Business - 11/08/17 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick
The Internet has opened-up many possibilities for the common man that lives miles away from the action. So why am I saying this? This happens to be one area where Jody & I don't see exactly eye-to-eye,i.e., on the matter of luck. The other disagreement we had was in the non-exclusive/ re-title contract agreements. Though I've relented 80% to Jody's opinion on this. And donít want to open this debate up again.

The internet certainly makes it much easier to chose where you want to live and work if you have connections. It doesn't fully replace face to face meetings that's for sure. I do believe we make our own luck.

And right, no sense in beating a dead horse. Though I find it interesting that you've started understanding (relenting to) my viewpoint on that other stuff. Guess I'm just ahead of the curve on that.
Posted By: John Lawrence Schick

Re: Jody's Mis-Information About The Music Business - 11/09/17 04:43 PM

Hey Jody!

Yeah, the old clichť ĎI make my own luckĒ. No sure what it means. I imagine it means developing oneís talent and taking care of the business side of oneís career. Iím sure thereís thousands of musicians/ composers that fall in that category that have never had any Industry success. Iíll never be convinced that I havenít been lucky. Lucky to have a family that supported my dreams, lucky that Iíve had wonderful teachers, lucky that I chose the publishers I use, lucky to have my health, lucky to have deep feelings for music, lucky to have a functional brain (no comments here please), etc.Ö Whether we choose to use the term or not, luck does exist. And I know musicians that have been terribly unlucky. Now with a little luck Iíll live long enough to compose many more compositions.

Best, John smile

P.S. Oh, and lucky to meet my wife of almost 50 years at one of the clubs I was playing. Whew, I almost forgot that one.
Posted By: Perfectpitch

Re: Jody's Mis-Information About The Music Business - 11/09/17 09:59 PM

I always heard, "The harder I work, the luckier I get". Not always true, but in my case, it seems to be!

Tony
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: Jody's Mis-Information About The Music Business - 11/14/17 08:17 PM

When I see the countless amounts of songwriters and musicians on dead sites such as soundclick, when I see the countless amounts of people doing covers on youtube( pick a song, any sing you can think of, old, new, obscure, somebody covered it on YouTube), when I can randomly pick a song on Spotify, and do it all day, every day through infinity, and not run out of songs and artists, it would make me moronic to think that luck has nothing to do with success in the music business.

There are great musicians and singers living homeless in the streets, whose only dream is to have enough money to eat something today. Talent absolutely plays a role, no talent, you can't take advantage of any opportunities you get, or it won't last long.

But to say luck has nothing to do with it is absurd. some people will never be in the right position at the right time, in fact, most dont
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