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#984306 - 11/16/12 03:38 PM How Stupid Can You Get???  
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Dak Lander Offline
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Dak Lander  Offline
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LoCal
To steal a phrase from "Forrest Gump", Stupid is as Stupid does.

Hostess Brands Inc, the bankrupt ma...ousands of its striking bakery workers.

This is a prime example of what's wrong with unions in this day and age and why they have outlived their usefulness and, as bad as it is in the private sector, it's much worse in the public services sectors such as school districts, police and fire unions and other public service unions.

So these clowns in the bakers union would rather have to company liquidate their assets, lose their jobs and have to hit the unemployment lines rather than make concessions to the company so it can remain in operation? Amazing! The epitome of stupidity.

Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face....


Get My Gear Here!

"That ol' dog's so mean, he ain't done nothin' but eat nails and [naughty word removed] nickels ever since he was born"
#984310 - 11/16/12 04:11 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Dak Lander]  
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John Lawrence Schick Offline
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Hope they're bluffing. I'd hate to think of a world without Twinkies. grin

Yes, sometimes unions go overboard with their proposals. Not always working for their member's interests.

John smile

#984311 - 11/16/12 04:12 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Dak Lander]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Did I say I was Smart,
The Teamsters also a part of this deal did settle with Hostess but the Baker's Cooked their Goose. Yes I agree, they are stupid!

It's probably gonna Snow in Miami this year!


Ray E. Strode
#984319 - 11/16/12 04:56 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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John Voorpostel Offline
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Before you put all the blame on the unions, consider that its managers must also share the blame for their bad decisions in the past, and today's health conscious consumers can also be said to be a cause.

These kinds of events can rarely be blamed on one thing


If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

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#984322 - 11/16/12 05:22 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: John Voorpostel]  
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There is probably more to the story than we know. If a one week strike puts a company under, they were going under anyway. Probably just the profiteers of the world getting more value out of the a company by selling the assets, than by actually making it a viable company again.

Things like this are the never the fault of one "thing", usually lots of things.


"It's supposed to be hard. If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The 'hard' is what makes it great."
Kevin @ bandcamp: Crows Say Vee-Eh (and Kevin @50/90 2019)
#984323 - 11/16/12 05:30 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: John Voorpostel]  
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John V. beat me to it!

The truth is Hostess has been on the ropes for years. They've gone bankrupt twice. Their snack cakes are not nearly as popular as they used to be. The shift to low-carb dieting has hurt them as well as other businesses like Krispy Kreme.

This year their CEO quit and got himself an $3.5 million dollar severance package. I think he saw the writing on the wall and got out while there was still some money to take with him.

The bakers' strike was just the killing blow for a company that was nearly dead already.

#984339 - 11/16/12 08:53 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: scottandrew]  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
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I think Hostess is too big to fail. Think of all those union jobs!!! It's time for a government bailout. Of course, big bro...I mean Uncle Sam could insist they make some changes. Those Twinkies and Ding Dongs could be baked with whole grain wheat and filled with tofu. The cupcakes could be 1/2 cup cakes. And there could be a limit as to how many a customer could buy. No, better than that, there could be a mandate a tax...er...a penalty...er...(well call it whatever is expedient) could be charged to citizens who do not buy them. Buy Uncle Sam's Healthy Twinkies or else!


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#984344 - 11/16/12 09:16 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
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Lynn Orloff Offline
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PA of the great USA
(to the tune of Twinkle Twinkle Little Star)

Twinkie Twinkie little snack
I canít find you on the rack
Up there on the shelf youíd be
Winkie winking back at me
Twinkie Twinkie little snack
Now you're gone and wonít be back!


My Music at Soundclick
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=788266

~call it a blessing or call it a curse, but I see all of life in verse~

Always open to collaborations smile

God Bless Our Military!!!
#984418 - 11/17/12 12:13 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Lynn Orloff]  
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Dave Rice Offline
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It's amazing how we get caught up in polarity. I'd sure hate to know this iconic little snack will disappear because the two sides could not agree. (Sounds like Washington, DC, eh?)

In a time when jobs are scarce and taxes are due to rise... all those families on welfare because an agreement could not be hammered out. Oh well, now it appears the "Twinkie" will join Icons Oldsmobile, Pontiac, TWA, PanAm and all the others in the Logotype Graveyard. Sad.

Nice work, Orloff. Your brain's wiring bundle is obviously unique and this one "hits the nail" precisely.

Thanks, Dak, for brining this up for discussion.

#984431 - 11/17/12 01:36 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: scottandrew]  
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Iggy Offline
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Originally Posted by scottandrew
John V. beat me to it!

The truth is Hostess has been on the ropes for years. They've gone bankrupt twice. Their snack cakes are not nearly as popular as they used to be. The shift to low-carb dieting has hurt them as well as other businesses like Krispy Kreme.

This year their CEO quit and got himself an $3.5 million dollar severance package. I think he saw the writing on the wall and got out while there was still some money to take with him.

The bakers' strike was just the killing blow for a company that was nearly dead already.


Yes, The Batari Box! By feelings effect my actions which effect your feelings which effect your actions. Your actions effect my feelings and so on and so on.

Many years ago companies valued employees. They took care of them and their families. In return the employees gave an honest dayís work and remained loyal. If a company was struggling or in trouble all parties would work toward a solution. This CEO who gave himself 3.5 million dollars right before bailing just shows how itís all about me and screw everyone else. The strikers simply mirrored his actions. Now everyone loses.

Then thereís the Dennyís franchisee who states he will cut employees pays and increase prices when Obama Care kicks in. Letís see, hmmn screw over the help and pi$* off the customers. Yeah thatís a recipe for success.

Companies are failing because they have lost sight of whatís important. The people. I had the pleasure of working for The Marriott Corporation for many many years. Bill Marriott philosophy was simple. ďTake care of the people and the people will take care of youĒ.

#984438 - 11/17/12 03:42 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Iggy]  
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John Voorpostel Offline
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In our business news this morning

In a Canadian twist, it may be that Saputo, a Canadian company that licenses the Hostess brand here, may bid for ownership of their snack brands, meaning that Twinkies will continue to be available to you all...of course they will be better because we are smile


If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

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#984442 - 11/17/12 04:07 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: John Voorpostel]  
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Given the rate at which the store shelves have been picked clean of Twinkies here, I wouldn't be surprised that Hostess did the best business in years in the space of one day!

I think Twinkies will survive. The brand is way too valuable. They'll sell the name and recipes to another company, maybe Saputo, as John mentions, or Grupo Bimbo, which tried to purchase Hostess before. The interesting question is: will it be a US company?

#984449 - 11/17/12 04:36 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: John Voorpostel]  
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Dan Sullivan Offline
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Dan Sullivan  Offline
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A DISSENTING POINT OF VIEW

Years of corporate and right wing political propaganda have trained people to scapegoat unions for any and all of the country's economic problems. So it's as predictable as the sun coming up in the morning that folks here would blame "the union." when Hostess Brands Inc. announced it would ask a bankruptcy judge for permission to liquidate the company after Bakery, Confectionery, Tobacco Workers and Grain Millers International Union (BCTGM) refused to call off a strike after being ordered to do so by Hostess' hedge fund owners.

"How stupid can you get?" was a fairly typical response of those quick to blame workers and the union.

Few blame the mis-managers of a company that has been in bankruptcy protection for all but 3 out of the last 8 years and is now owned by hedge funds Silver Point and Monarch. For many, the knee jerk reaction is to blame workers like Mike Hummel, a receiving clerk and a Baker's union member.

According to a story on CNNMoney, Hummell was making $48,000 per year when the company first entered bankruptcy protection in 2004. To help the company and protect his job, he and the union accepted concessions that cut his pay to $34,000 a year. He said the latest round of give-backs demanded by the bosses would have cut his pay to $24,000 and significantly increased out-of-pocket expenses for insurance.

"The point is the jobs they'e offering us aren't worth saving,"he said Friday. "It instantly casts me into poverty. I wouldn't be able to make my house payment. My take-home would be less than unemployment benefits. Being on unemployment while we search for a new job, that's a better choice than working these hours for poverty wages," he told CNNMoney.

Union officials and workers also say that past concessions weren't used to modernize plants and trucks but instead went into the pockets of owners, including private equity firms and hedge funds.

Under the cover of bankruptcy, Silver Point and Monarch are also raiding the workers' pension funds. CNBC reports the Teamsters believe "they've been fleeced out of almost $100 million from Hostess after the company 'temporarily' ceased making union pension contributions last August. That move by Hostess was a breach of its collective-bargaining agreement with the unions."

According to Fortune magazine, "The critical issue in the bankruptcy is legacy pensions. Hostess has roughly $2 billion in unfunded pension liabilities to its various unions' workers."

The only likely winners will be Silver Point and Monarch, the hedge fund owners who are asking the bankruptcy judge to liquidate Hostess. "Silver Point and Monarch-as well as the other secured creditors-will realize some value for their investment in the company, although certainly far less than they had hoped."


As for the workers? Silver Point and Monarch walk away with a profit and the workers lose their jobs and face the added insult of being blamed for it by a public too ready to accept the anti-union propaganda of the right wing and mainstream media.

How stupid can you get?




Write from your heart, not what you think others want to hear.

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#984454 - 11/17/12 05:47 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Dan Sullivan]  
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Now, lets say that Silver Point and Monarch are Pandora. Pandora who has never been profitable is going up against the unions and the law. Unions = ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, SoundExchange and Congress. Sound familiar yet?


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
#984456 - 11/17/12 06:02 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Jody Whitesides]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Well,
If the figure is correct of, Mr. Hummel, a Receving Clerk making 48 thousand a year I would call that excessive. My wife a Registered Nurse never made that amount ever. Anyone that has walked into a grocery store knows all the brands avaliable on the shelves. The Compitition is fierce. It was reported that the Teamsters did agree to the contract so there are 2 sides to the story. I would liken the Bakers to the Air Contollers that were fired in the Reagan Adminstration. In this tough economy you would thing they would have thought it over more carefully.


Ray E. Strode
#984462 - 11/17/12 06:57 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Dan Sullivan]  
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Dak Lander Offline
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Originally Posted by Dan Sullivan
A DISSENTING POINT OF VIEW

......



All you have to do is look at the public sector unions that have many cities and counties bankrupt or on the road to it because of their tactics. Can you say sky high pensions, 100% health care & etc? Granted, it was often partially due to the idiot voters who were scared shitless by the tactics of those unions. If we don't get that raise and the increase in pensions and benefits we'll lose half the police and firemen and we'll have to close half the schools. Very often the same holds true in private sector unions and the bosses have the members pressured to vote a certain way and for certain pols who are in their pockets. Most of the time though, it's the bosses in the private sector who reap the benefits while the members suck up the leftovers.
When it's so bad that it takes three or four union members to accomplish a job that could be easily handled by one person it is ludicrous. As an example, you have a union fleet repair shop. A vehicle is brought for some work. One guy needed to diagnose the problem. A second to order and acquire the needed parts. A third to make the repair. But wait, there's a bracket broken. OOPS! A fourth guy has to weld the bracket and a fifth guy to paint it.
End result? What could well have been accomplished in a couple of hours ends up taking a day or more.

Yeah, how stupid CAN you get?

Unions have outlived their need and have become an anchor around the necks of the general, non-union population.


Get My Gear Here!

"That ol' dog's so mean, he ain't done nothin' but eat nails and [naughty word removed] nickels ever since he was born"
#984470 - 11/17/12 08:07 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Dak Lander]  
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Lynn Orloff Offline
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PA of the great USA
(to the tune of "I'm Dreaming Of A White Christmas")

"I'm Dreaming Of A Big Twinkie"
(c)2012 Lynn Orloff


Iím dreaming of a big Twinkie
Just like the ones I used to know
Though not too nutritious
They were delicious
Please tell me why they had to go

Iím dreaming of a big Twinkie
Just like the ones I used to buy
With their creamy middle
That dripped alittle
But that was half the fun Iíd find

Oh Iím dreaming of a big Twinkie
Theyíd always start my shopping list
Can my days be merry like this
Sadly not since Twinkies donít exist cry
_____________________________________________

Oh I wish someone could put music and a zany vocal to this (or a Bing Crosby voice) and wouldn't it be fun to post it on You Tube. grin


My Music at Soundclick
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=788266

~call it a blessing or call it a curse, but I see all of life in verse~

Always open to collaborations smile

God Bless Our Military!!!
#984490 - 11/17/12 10:44 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Lynn Orloff]  
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Dave Rice Offline
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Dave Rice  Offline
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Hey, Guys and Gals:

Unions were established for a valid reason. The "Pullman Strike" was one of the key factors. I'm not against unions but there must be a balance. A company exists to make a profit or at least break even. Without the success of profit, wages become the first target of attempting to "right the ship" except when other factors are involved... such as gross mis-management.

Our own government has caused much of the imbalance that caused the Automobile Industry to end up with such a severe problem. Out-of-sight wages and pension plans fit for kings. All brought about by illogical labor law and government meddling.

Of course workers need protection from mis-management... but not at the expense of the company being able to exist. If the government had fairly established rules that were palatable to both parties, we would still have lots of jobs available for middle class Americans. Instead, the labor costs got so out of hand, the jobs were "exported" overseas. Now our existing Government (failing economics 101) can only attampt to supplement their excessive spending, giveaways and outright bribery, by wanting to tax the rich, the poor and everyone in between. They may not call some of the little deals taxes... but our pocket books will be much slimmer soon.

All the best,

Dave

#984494 - 11/17/12 10:54 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Dave Rice]  
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ben willis Offline
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I dunno, when I think of labor unions, I think of organised crime and thuggery. I wonder why that is?

#984495 - 11/17/12 11:19 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: ben willis]  
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Tricia Baker Offline
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Ben, I've been craving Ding Dongs since I heard the news last week. This country's going to Hell in a hand basket. Apparently, nothing is sacred. Not even Ding Dongs or Twinkies. It's very sad.

To answer your question, unions do have a bad reputation. Some of it well deserved. To keep making demand on top of demand. That's part of what is ailing GM, despite the government's shot in the arm with taxpayer money. At some point, people have lost touch with the economic situation. Everyone is hurting. I think I'd rather keep a job even if I had to take a cut in pay. In fact, we're all going to be in the same boat soon. I don't even want to think about it, really.


"Grits is one of those country-boy words that is both singular and plural-like deer, elk and sheep. I think the singular is appropriate when there's a modifier that makes it clear one is talking about something specific. Like, 'Grits are good for you, but these here grits is tasty.'"~~Joe Wrabek
#984520 - 11/18/12 03:34 AM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Tricia Baker]  
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"Tampa Stan" Good (D) Offline
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I read ALL the article this AM, and I think, Bottom-Line, it said Hostess' Owners WILL sell-off their Assets to Other Companies...Which means Someone Other than Hostess WILL be making Twinkies again.

Wanna bet that Someone Else will have a Non-Union Shop?

#984531 - 11/18/12 08:50 AM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: "Tampa Stan" Good (D)]  
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niteshift Online content
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Hey Dak,

I'd have to disagree with you on this one. I'm no fan of unions, but what you have here is a greedy private equity firm that borrowed too much money and bought an overpriced asset on borrowed money.

When borrowing costs went up they couldn't cover their debts. They also failed to read a rapidly changing market place where they are yesterdays taste as far as the snack food market goes.

Don't worry, the assets will be sold off, re-structured, and most of those employees will be working again one way or another... just in a more sensibly run company. It's the investors who blew it. Oh well, too bad, another day, another potential take over.

cheers, niteshift

#984535 - 11/18/12 10:54 AM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: niteshift]  
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Bill Robinson Offline
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You want to know why Hostess and all the other companies are shutting down in America?

Beijing tops the list of China's employees' salary with an average monthly pay of 4,672 yuan ($730) among the 23 provinces and cities that recently published the statistics, chinanews.com reported Friday.

That's about $4.50 per hour and that's the top province. The rest of China is below that.

Now I know everyone is going to say what's that got to do with Twinkies. It has to do with all the stuff required to make those Twinkies, The Fuel, Electricity, Parts for machines, Flour, delivery trucks, Etc.

That receiving clerk making $48 Grand....$24.00 per hour

Those figures don't even address Retirement plans and other benefits.

That's why Hostess is closed. We simply cannot compete in the world market.

I wonder why?




Bill
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"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." --Thomas Jefferson didn't say it

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#984545 - 11/18/12 01:57 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Bill Robinson]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Ray E. Strode  Online Content
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niteshift,
We need you to go up and advise the "Annointed one" You can take Bill's Post for him to read. You will also need a battery of Kindergarten Teachers to do Show and Tell so he can understand it. Any Questions?


Ray E. Strode
#984558 - 11/18/12 03:58 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: niteshift]  
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Bill Robinson Offline
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Originally Posted by niteshift
Hey Dak,

I'd have to disagree with you on this one. I'm no fan of unions, but what you have here is a greedy private equity firm that borrowed too much money and bought an overpriced asset on borrowed money.

When borrowing costs went up they couldn't cover their debts. They also failed to read a rapidly changing market place where they are yesterdays taste as far as the snack food market goes.

Don't worry, the assets will be sold off, re-structured, and most of those employees will be working again one way or another... just in a more sensibly run company. It's the investors who blew it. Oh well, too bad, another day, another potential take over.

cheers, niteshift


Yep. It was the the greedy Capitalists. Shame on them for making a profit.

What do you think the companies that buy up those assets will be paying the new employees to make those Twinkies?
If they are "sensibly run" I seriously doubt it will be $24.00 per hour.
It wouldn't surprise me a bit if foreign companies buy the product name

Last edited by Bill Robinson; 11/18/12 04:00 PM.

Bill
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"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." --Thomas Jefferson didn't say it

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#984568 - 11/18/12 05:31 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Bill Robinson]  
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Paul H. Gaines Offline
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Paul H. Gaines  Offline
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So if China takes over and starts making all the Hostess Branded products, does that mean Lead Based Twinkies will soon be part of our future?

Unions are a bad thing as far as I can tell.


Cheers
Paul


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#984571 - 11/18/12 07:52 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Paul H. Gaines]  
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ben willis Offline
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ben willis  Offline
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Well, I'm not worried about losing Twinkies. I can make a yellow cake with a white sugar/butter frosting or filling that'll give 'em a run for their money. The only thing that Twinkies have going for them is the convenience.

I make everything else from scratch, why not make my own Twinkies?

#984572 - 11/18/12 08:12 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: ben willis]  
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John Lawrence Schick Offline
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John Lawrence Schick  Offline
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Originally Posted by ben willis
Well, I'm not worried about losing Twinkies. I can make a yellow cake with a white sugar/butter frosting or filling that'll give 'em a run for their money. The only thing that Twinkies have going for them is the convenience.

I make everything else from scratch, why not make my own Twinkies?


Yes, on the news last night a baker showed how to make a Twinkie. Only thing is, the baker's recipe had 12 ingredients and the Hostess Twinkie has 27. But said it tasted the same. Hmm...

Start bakin' Ben! grin
John smile

#984575 - 11/18/12 08:58 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
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Colin Ward Offline
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I will not enter the debate about unions, hedge funds, etc. I will say however than when Twinkies start arriving from China, it will be a sad day. The US system and government are usually responsible for us shooting ourselves in the foot and causing our jobs to migrate to Asia where somebody understands the need to grow their economy and create jobs. The loss of jobs to Asia is essentially the root cause of nearly all of our other problems.


Colin

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#984581 - 11/18/12 09:16 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
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ben willis Offline
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ben willis  Offline
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Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick
Originally Posted by ben willis
Well, I'm not worried about losing Twinkies. I can make a yellow cake with a white sugar/butter frosting or filling that'll give 'em a run for their money. The only thing that Twinkies have going for them is the convenience.

I make everything else from scratch, why not make my own Twinkies?


Yes, on the news last night a baker showed how to make a Twinkie. Only thing is, the baker's recipe had 12 ingredients and the Hostess Twinkie has 27. But said it tasted the same. Hmm...

Start bakin' Ben! grin
John smile


It doesn't surprise me John. I have also never believed that KFC is made with "11 herbs and spices". I've made fried chicken pretty close to KFC. The secret is in the brineing of the chicken before it's fried, and the pressure fryer. The basic ingredients are salt, pepper, and garlic. The rest I will withhold out of respect for Col. Sanders.

#984587 - 11/18/12 09:25 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: ben willis]  
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Lynn Orloff Offline
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PA of the great USA
Toto I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore....


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#984589 - 11/18/12 09:53 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Dak Lander]  
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Tom Shea Offline
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Tom Shea  Offline
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Originally Posted by Dak Lander
To steal a phrase from "Forrest Gump", Stupid is as Stupid does.

Hostess Brands Inc, the bankrupt ma...ousands of its striking bakery workers.
This is a prime example of what's wrong with unions in this day and age and why they have outlived their usefulness and, as bad as it is in the private sector, it's much worse in the public services sectors such as school districts, police and fire unions and other public service unions.

So these clowns in the bakers union would rather have to company liquidate their assets, lose their jobs and have to hit the unemployment lines rather than make concessions to the company so it can remain in operation? Amazing! The epitome of stupidity.

Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face....



Amen Bro, Amen



Thomas Shea

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#984591 - 11/18/12 10:12 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Tom Shea]  
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Bill Robinson Offline
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And guess who were the first group of business leaders to meet with President Obama after the election.

Union Leaders.

I think unions are a necessary part of our system but they have ruined it for themselves. Unions did a lot of good for the labor force in this country but I think greed and corruption have ruined it.


Bill
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"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." --Thomas Jefferson didn't say it

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#984593 - 11/18/12 10:49 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Bill Robinson]  
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John Voorpostel Offline
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John Voorpostel  Offline
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All this talk of unions...did you know they only comprise just over 11% of all the USA work force, and they are primarily part of the public sector...and this precentage has been on a steady decline fore years?

Is it even possible for them to be responsible for all the ills you blame them for??

I am not arguing they are all good...far from it...but those off on this tangent totally ignore the fact that Hostess failed for more complex reasons...yet you insist it was caused by the unions.

Do some unbiased research and you'll find that Hostess failed because of

1) bad management decisions
2) changing consumer prerferences
3) increased prices for things like sugar, flour etc and of course labour
4) their unions not accepting a pay cut

So stop blaming just the unions for this...and look forward to another company making your precious Twinkies.


If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

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#984600 - 11/19/12 02:04 AM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: John Voorpostel]  
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Rick Heenan Offline
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I also recently read where their upper management had voted themselves a 60% raise during the bankruptcy periods. I think that unions are an integral part of the corporate yin and yang. The best ones are the honest ones.

#984619 - 11/19/12 11:08 AM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Rick Heenan]  
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Everett Adams Offline
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Everett Adams  Offline
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Unions are good and bad.They are a protection against bad employers but when they get greedy they can drive employers out of business.Unions have to justify their existance so they keep asking for more and more and often the employer just can't absorb the extra expense with out raising prices so high that they can't compete in the market place. That is why some European
countries are in trouble,they pay high wages and give very liberal vacations to employees,driving production cost so high that they can't compete on the world stage,that and corruption and tax dodgers are driving governments to the brink of bankruptcy, which is affecting the world's economy.

But how do you bring wages back to a normal level.No matter how high wages are, people will spend more than they earn, so how will they pay off their debts on lower earnings.Change in life style and expectations could help but with less money being available to be spent will hurt the economy and drive governments to the point that they can't pay off their debts without raising taxes, which takes more money out of the economy.
Greed started this cycle,a lot of belt tightening may bring it under control, but not with out a lot of pain.


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#984642 - 11/19/12 01:27 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Everett Adams]  
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Bill Robinson Offline
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I don't think anyone is blaming everything on the unions in the Hostess mess.
But my understanding is the investors lost everything. Might not be true but that's the spin. The CEO's were probably the only one's that didn't get hurt.
CEO's are like Sports Figures. They make Millions per year whether they perform or not. If they fail they fire them with a big fat severance package.
Also Hostess was dealing with something like 350 Collective bargaining agreements.
They were grossly inefficient because of Union rules. Like forcing duplicate delivery routes because one union product couldn't be on the same truck with another.

But it's obvious there were many factors why they failed, not just the union.
But the ONLY thing a business can control directly is labor cost.

I remember working a job where I was Union. Part of my job involved installing Fire hose cabinets. They wanted three tradesmen from three Unions to install the damn thing.I ran the Pipe, the Sheet metal guy mounted the metal cabinet and the Glazer's put on the glass door. It was ridiculous.


Bill
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"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." --Thomas Jefferson didn't say it

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#984656 - 11/19/12 03:05 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Bill Robinson]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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If the number of collecting bargaining agreements is correct it is no wonder businesses move off shore.


Ray E. Strode
#984659 - 11/19/12 03:35 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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John Voorpostel Offline
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Not to begin an argument or confrontation Bill, but there are lots of costs a business can control besides labour. What makes it such an issue is that it is often one of the largest cost categories. But almost every line item on an income statement can be focused on and controlled and or reduced...either by using less or by finding some other way to do something.


There are even some businesses with lots of buying power, ie Walmart, that can basically dictate to suppliers what they will pay for certain items they stock. If you can't or won't sell to them at this price, you simply don't do business with them. But I do understand that Walmart will work closely with their suppliers to help them reduce their costs to enable them to meet Walmart requirements.


But there are others, especially large chain grocery stores, that make lots of money by not only beating up their suppliers, but they also charge them for shelf space.


Basically, businesses lever whatever power they may have into controlling their costs and maximizing their revenues.




If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

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#984660 - 11/19/12 03:43 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: John Voorpostel]  
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John Lawrence Schick Offline
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"Walmart will work closely with their suppliers to help them reduce their costs to enable them to meet Walmart requirements"

Yes, using China sweat shops as a prototype. grin

John smile

#984661 - 11/19/12 03:49 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: John Voorpostel]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Looking at the other side,
A business and the officers has to examine many things to keep the business solvent. Not always easy. On the other hand all the worker has to do is a basic job. We need good Labor and good Management for a sucessful enterprise. In the free Enterprise system things are always shifting so balanceing everything isn't always easy. In Astrology Venus and Jupiter represent the great benifics, Mars and Saturn represent the great malifics. So all those little problems will show up, like it or not.


Ray E. Strode
#984663 - 11/19/12 04:02 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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John Voorpostel Offline
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John Voorpostel  Offline
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Yup John, as long as the American public continues to demand lower prices, Walmart will continue to buy from China.

Tried to find stats on exactly what percentage of Walmart merchandise is actually made in China, but it ranged from 70 to 90 percent, so meaningless on the one hand, and meaningful on the other. Would be nice to know what kind of goods (skill level required and related high value jobs), dollar values etc



If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

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#984669 - 11/19/12 06:57 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: John Voorpostel]  
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Dan Sullivan Offline
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As long as labor is viewed as nothing more than a commodity, workers will be obtained like any other commodity, at the lowest available price. That's capitalism. Or, for that matter, communism.


Write from your heart, not what you think others want to hear.

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#984694 - 11/20/12 12:14 AM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Dan Sullivan]  
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Michael LeBlanc Offline
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They finally legalize pot in a couple states,THEN they take away their Twinkies!That's just wrong!Nice timin' dudes!Mike

#984701 - 11/20/12 01:27 AM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Michael LeBlanc]  
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John Voorpostel Offline
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John Voorpostel  Offline
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In a surprise move, the bankruptcy judge just gave Hostess and the Bakers union some time and he will mediate the discussion.

Lets see what happens tomorrow


If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

iAccountant --- Info L inc --- Taxboard
#984806 - 11/20/12 11:34 PM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: John Voorpostel]  
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Jean Bullock Offline
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Well ... I don't intend to cry over Twinkies. I'm crying over the Ding Dongs.


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#984810 - 11/21/12 12:16 AM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Jean Bullock]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Headline on CNN says Mediation with Union unsucessful.


Ray E. Strode
#984811 - 11/21/12 12:23 AM Re: How Stupid Can You Get??? [Re: Michael LeBlanc]  
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Dak Lander Offline
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Dak Lander  Offline
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Originally Posted by Michael LeBlanc
They finally legalize pot in a couple states,THEN they take away their Twinkies!That's just wrong!Nice timin' dudes!Mike
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