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#983858 - 11/13/12 03:28 AM Re: Why Free Music? [Re: Gregory Watton]  
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Originally Posted by Gregory Watton
Dude. I definitely have horses in the race, so I think you can keep your promises to yourself. While you may never sell a darn thing (because you say yourself that you give everything away for free), I have records that ARE selling, in various territories throughout the world. So, I'm putting my money where my mouth is.

There are several PROFESSIONAL SONGWRITERS who ARE fighting to keep music royalties from diminishing and I am not a fan of anyone who is an advocate of taking away their livelihoods. Sorry buddy, but even if I didn't have cookies in the oven, I'd still be standing up and fighting right alongside them because this is the future of music we're talking about here. UNLESS there is a CLEAR plan where EVERYONE benefits and MUSIC can still be GIVEN AWAY, I don't see it as a good business model if companies like PANDORA and SPOTIFY can bully content creators in the name of THEIR profitable commerce. Who's side are you on? The side of creative people or the side of those who would dip their hands into the livelihoods of those who keep them in business just so they can fill their coffers?

Sir, I have no idea who you are, or if you're even a sir, but the truth of the matter is, your opinion and the opinions of those like you, are the reason career songwriters are fighting to be heard on Capitol Hill. We're fighting for the right of EVERY songwriter to make a living doing what they love to do and what gives us motivation to get out of bed in the morning.

Do you really want to destroy the landscape so that you can shape the world how you see fit?

I don't think so.

Originally Posted by December Rock Star
Originally Posted by Gregory Watton
Rockstar,

You're entitled to your opinion and I think I will opt out of engaging you in this conversation. By the way, I didn't say I was getting millions of streams, but I have several friends and people I work with, who are. You ask if I have music on spotify....I don't know, I haven't bothered to look.

Good luck buddy. Since you're such an advocate for music being free, let me know how far giving your music out for free gets you.

Peace


I can at very least, promise that you and I will still not be selling [naughty word removed]!!!

I didnt mean to make it an argument, but I do get peeved when some folks who have no horse in the race complain like their pensions count on it.

I dont know your situation. But music IS free right now, just trying to minimize the damage.


Do you have a link to these records selling over the world, I might like to buy one. I cant wait to hear it actually.

I understand the fighting for it, but you are fighting a fight that has been over for some time.

Your fighting for the few, the 1 % making real money with their music, and meanwhile they are licensing their music to spotify and pandora.

Its admirable if not a tad sad that the little guy does all the fighting, and the big guys make all the money, but thats how it is.

And never once did I say I didnt want artists to make money, I am totally pro making money.

Just looking for a way to be successful with music, success doesnt take place at the cash register, it takes place by being a voice in the music community, and not flapping gums on forums.

All these things are coming into play to cut down on theft, and it seems to be working.

itunes is getting a little greedy now asking for 1.29 per song.

Id be happy to be an indie musician my whole life, fame means nothing to me, but being able to make a living with ones own music is a dream.

Mp3 sales is not a big part of that, indies sell very little, but its a part of the whole package


Last edited by December Rock Star; 11/13/12 03:30 AM.
#983864 - 11/13/12 03:49 AM Re: Why Free Music? [Re: niteshift]  
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Originally Posted by niteshift
No, free music is not a right. And it is at writers' discretion to give it away for free.

Some music is free, as in the stuff which is given away as promo's. Just like those small packets of laundery detergent. Try going to the supermarket and asking for a free full bottle of detergent........ crazy thought huh ?

My own opinion is that if you think that you have to give away all your music for free, then it's not worth much.

For marketing puropses, in limited amounts that's just fine, but otherwise I'd suggest that it's not worth listening to anyway. It's just more white noise filling an already over crowded space.

cheers, niteshift


Werent you the on recently posted a thread about how you finally sold a song to some website for 20 bucks or something?

So if your view was correct everything you wrote before that wasnt worth anything or anything after.

Music is only worth something if there is a demand for it. There is no demand for music, music is overkill, we have more music in 2012, then we will ever need for the rest of our lives.

So its not a question of value, its a question of getting fans.

If you can get fans interested by giving it away thats great.

Ever go to a mall and have soomebody stop you and ask if u want to taste a cookie or bread or something?

They give it free so u might buy later. If they said, would u like to try this for 2.50? ud walk away. Unless u were real hungry or real fat....


#983871 - 11/13/12 05:47 AM Re: Why Free Music? [Re: December X]  
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Those free hand outs in the mall are samples. They're not handing over full sized versions of the product for consumption. You have to BUY that.

Giving away a sample of your song (ie. 1:30 seconds) for free for promo purposes would be the concept you're describing. If the consumer wants the full song, they gotta BUY it.

I sent you a PM with some links. Check it out.

You're right. I'm wasting my time flapping my gums with you on the forum. My time will be better spent elsewhere, doing something productive.

Peace

#983872 - 11/13/12 05:51 AM Re: Why Free Music? [Re: Gregory Watton]  
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Originally Posted by Gregory Watton
Those free hand outs in the mall are samples. They're not handing over full sized versions of the product for consumption. You have to BUY that.

Giving away a sample of your song (ie. 1:30 seconds) for free for promo purposes would be the concept you're describing. If the consumer wants the full song, they gotta BUY it.

I sent you a PM with some links. Check it out.

You're right. I'm wasting my time flapping my gums with you on the forum. My time will be better spent elsewhere, doing something productive.

Peace


Oh God... LOL

Yes, and those samples are soooooooo useful, i always buy music ive never heard of simply by listening to the sample.

Cmon dude why dont we call it a truce.

Here;s some of my music, that prolly wont make it to my album but I demoed them to see what I had.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=1254288&content=music


#983873 - 11/13/12 05:53 AM Re: Why Free Music? [Re: niteshift]  
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I get a kick out of these arguments over how the pie gets sliced up in the multi-billion dollar music business. You've got small fry scuffling for what amounts to nickels and dimes on the fringes of this gigantic money-making racket, sounding off like they're some combination of Col. Tom Parker, P.T. Barnum and Jay Z. Nothing's more comical than some pompous fool braying and scolding the plain folk who refuse to take him seriously.

Why, they even ridicule the musician who wants to give his music away for free. I suppose they'd probably find fault with the Savior for not monetizing miracles. I can almost hear them, "Why, that healing must not be worth much if you got it for free."

As they say on the pre-game show just before Monday Night Football.

"C'mon, man!!"


Write from your heart, not what you think others want to hear.

https://dansullivan2.bandcamp.com

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/dansullivan2
#983874 - 11/13/12 06:01 AM Re: Why Free Music? [Re: Dan Sullivan]  
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Rock Star, Your songs sounded good to me. Even if they were free.


Write from your heart, not what you think others want to hear.

https://dansullivan2.bandcamp.com

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/dansullivan2
#983875 - 11/13/12 06:01 AM Re: Why Free Music? [Re: Dan Sullivan]  
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Originally Posted by Dan Sullivan
I get a kick out of these arguments over how the pie gets sliced up in the multi-billion dollar music business. You've got small fry scuffling for what amounts to nickels and dimes on the fringes of this gigantic money-making racket, sounding off like they're some combination of Col. Tom Parker, P.T. Barnum and Jay Z. Nothing's more comical than some pompous fool braying and scolding the plain folk who refuse to take him seriously.

Why they even ridicule the musician who wants to give his music away for free. I suppose they'd probably find fault with the Savior for not monetizing miracles. I can almost hear them, "Why, that healing must not be worth much if you got it for free."

As they say on the pre-game show just before Monday Night Football.

"C'mon, man!!"


Well, I do understand that the forum is a songwriters ship, and they want to run a tight ship. Supporting one another should be something that happens.

I am nothing but supportive when it comes to talking about songwriting, giving feedback, and helping writers get better if i can. But im pretty sure most folks here know where they stand as the needles in the haystack of the music business.

Im not saying anyting revolutional, just practical and real.

I hope everyone can make money doing this. Nothing would make me happier.


#983876 - 11/13/12 06:02 AM Re: Why Free Music? [Re: Dan Sullivan]  
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Originally Posted by Dan Sullivan
Rock Star, You're songs sounded good to me. Even if it was free.


Thanks

#983877 - 11/13/12 06:03 AM Re: Why Free Music? [Re: December X]  
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Hey December.

Yeah, we can call a truce.

#983977 - 11/14/12 07:09 AM Re: Why Free Music? [Re: niteshift]  
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I create a "buzz" for my music the old fashioned way. By PLAYING six nights a week, adding to my fanbase and building up my mailing list. Once on my mailing list I provide links to all my extra curricular activites such as Pandora and Spotify. www.bobcushing.com


bc
#984006 - 11/14/12 01:40 PM Re: Why Free Music? [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
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I think that a lot of this has to do with one's perspective and goals. For someone who is making music or writing songs as part or all of their income, selling is obviously important.

For me it is a different goal. I am not looking for the money. My goal is to get my songs recorded and listened to. That is Justice's goal also. She wants to be a broadcast journalist - not a professional singer.

Tom


Thomas Shea

Thomas Shea - Songwriting
http://www.soundclick.com/thomasshea

Justice - Songs
http://www.soundclick.com/justice-nebraska

#984007 - 11/14/12 01:45 PM Re: Why Free Music? [Re: Tom Shea]  
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Another issue is the amount of money involved.

First let me say that I think an artist or songwriter absolutely deserves fair compensation..... but how often are the amounts involved significant?

For Justice however, the amount of money involved is very small. She has about a million and a half digital distribution streams and downloads. (CDBaby does a great job of managing this BTW). The checks we receive are not going to come close to paying for the costs. (The go into her college trust fund).

Tom


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http://www.soundclick.com/thomasshea

Justice - Songs
http://www.soundclick.com/justice-nebraska

#984041 - 11/14/12 07:57 PM Re: Why Free Music? [Re: Tom Shea]  
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The unfortunate thing about this issue is that there is no line that draws a distinction between those who would like to make a living making music and those who do not.

If someone who does not wish or who's goal is not to make a living or profit for their hard work takes the attitude of "music should be free", and starts to be a "Advocate" if you will, it affects the collective "whole" of us as creators of Music.

These attitudes have a way of "Snowballing" their way to the in-boxes of Senators who have the power to weaken already weakened Laws regarding Musicians and Songwriters, who one day would like to be compensated fairly for their Work and Talents they share with the world.

Those of us who do of course can have and will make their say on the issue but are becoming more and more outnumbered by the masses of people who believe that they are entitled to something "Free" when it comes to music because they have the means to Rip it.

We don't have the luxury of "opting" out of this attitude with the numbers being as massive as they are.

Our Songs don't come with a "Tag" if you will of "I'm a struggling Musician/Songwriter" trying to support my family to go along with it when it gets "Ripped" or Stolen by someone who could not careless what it costs to bring something as powerful and meaningful as a Song to those very same ones that will take the time to "Rip" the song other than actually pay for it.

At the very least if you are a creator of Music and believe you are not likely to get compensated or paid, or just doing it out of a hobby to share with friends or family or whoever is willing to take the time to listen....first "Do No Harm"
Please do not make it harder for us that believe our work and talents still have value to the people who care enough to listen and maybe someday show their appreciation and support us by "Buying" it.

What better way to show your appreciation than actually spending your hard earned money for something that you can enjoy for a lifetime?-Dana



#984061 - 11/15/12 12:00 AM Re: Why Free Music? [Re: Dayson]  
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Originally Posted by Dayson
The unfortunate thing about this issue is that there is no line that draws a distinction between those who would like to make a living making music and those who do not.

If someone who does not wish or who's goal is not to make a living or profit for their hard work takes the attitude of "music should be free", and starts to be a "Advocate" if you will, it affects the collective "whole" of us as creators of Music.

These attitudes have a way of "Snowballing" their way to the in-boxes of Senators who have the power to weaken already weakened Laws regarding Musicians and Songwriters, who one day would like to be compensated fairly for their Work and Talents they share with the world.

Those of us who do of course can have and will make their say on the issue but are becoming more and more outnumbered by the masses of people who believe that they are entitled to something "Free" when it comes to music because they have the means to Rip it.

We don't have the luxury of "opting" out of this attitude with the numbers being as massive as they are.

Our Songs don't come with a "Tag" if you will of "I'm a struggling Musician/Songwriter" trying to support my family to go along with it when it gets "Ripped" or Stolen by someone who could not careless what it costs to bring something as powerful and meaningful as a Song to those very same ones that will take the time to "Rip" the song other than actually pay for it.

At the very least if you are a creator of Music and believe you are not likely to get compensated or paid, or just doing it out of a hobby to share with friends or family or whoever is willing to take the time to listen....first "Do No Harm"
Please do not make it harder for us that believe our work and talents still have value to the people who care enough to listen and maybe someday show their appreciation and support us by "Buying" it.

What better way to show your appreciation than actually spending your hard earned money for something that you can enjoy for a lifetime?-Dana




No the unfortunate thing is, if you'd like to make money, you probably cant.

it's not our choice to make money, it's our choice to sell it or not.

it's about finding ways to get heard in an over saturated market.

The only way to make real money with your music is to become a relatively big star.

It is a nice way to show support to people, but have you bought anyone's music here? It's not just for you, everybody needs their music sold.

We all need that appreciation, but the thing is the regular person doesnt know we exist, so how could they show appreciation?

All im saying is, trying to sell your music to people who dont know you exist, is well tough.

My niece recently said to me, "why would you buy music nobody knows" that's like going to the movies by yourself"

I think most folks think the same way.

#984080 - 11/15/12 08:49 AM Re: Why Free Music? [Re: December X]  
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No one is debating whether or not you have the choice to sell your music of give it away, like you said that's your choice.
As I said in my post "Do no Harm"
It seems to me you want very badly to sell your music that you are willing to give it away in hopes that someone will buy it, but also failing to realize that that process in turns devalues Music for us all.-Respectfully-Dana

#984096 - 11/15/12 12:21 PM Re: Why Free Music? [Re: Dayson]  
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Originally Posted by Dayson
No one is debating whether or not you have the choice to sell your music of give it away, like you said that's your choice.
As I said in my post "Do no Harm"
It seems to me you want very badly to sell your music that you are willing to give it away in hopes that someone will buy it, but also failing to realize that that process in turns devalues Music for us all.-Respectfully-Dana


No you got it wrong. Im not talking about me at all, I dont need to sell my music.

My objective was to raise the possibility that giving some music away free, might yield better results than trying to sell it.

That when a customer can hear it, they might buy it.

The post originally came about from my listening to spotify. I think spotify is good for indies, as they can be heard.

As far as devaluing your music, well if nobody hears it, it has no value. This is the point.

How does some giving away music, hurt the value of your music?

This assumes all music is created equal too.

Its not the cost of the music that gives it value, it's the entertainment it provides.

If somebody gives you a cd as a gift, you didnt pay for it, but it still is enjoyable isnt it?

Not sure what "value" you are refering to, value to whom?

Last edited by December Rock Star; 11/15/12 12:22 PM.
#984113 - 11/15/12 02:40 PM Re: Why Free Music? [Re: December X]  
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Nebraska
In reviewing the original post in this thread, I want to clarify my position.

An artist (or song owner) owns the song and deserves to be compensated for any one accessing that song.

For Justice, though, we don't care. We would be happy to make the choice of giving away her music for free.

The artist (song owner) should have the choice.


Thomas Shea

Thomas Shea - Songwriting
http://www.soundclick.com/thomasshea

Justice - Songs
http://www.soundclick.com/justice-nebraska

#984116 - 11/15/12 02:46 PM Re: Why Free Music? [Re: Tom Shea]  
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Nebraska
As has been mentioned in some of the posts, making money with music is tough. I have been talking to people locally to see how many people in Nebraska actually make enough money with music to earn a living without another job. The general consensus is about 20. Of course we are a small population state and not a know music center. But there are a few thousand serious musicians. Let us say there are only 2,000. That means that one out of 100 can make a living with it.

I wonder what you all think? I will start a new topic on this.


Tom


Thomas Shea

Thomas Shea - Songwriting
http://www.soundclick.com/thomasshea

Justice - Songs
http://www.soundclick.com/justice-nebraska

#984123 - 11/15/12 03:08 PM Re: Why Free Music? *DELETED* [Re: Tom Shea]  
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Post deleted by December Rock Star

#984126 - 11/15/12 03:16 PM Re: Why Free Music? [Re: December X]  
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Perfect World= Every artist in the world makes an album, and makes money.

Real World, out of every artisat who does make an album, 1% will make money

So which scenario is better.

A. You sell your cd and make nothing

B. You give away some music, and mostly allow free streaming, becomes noticed, and sell music when they notice you.

Regardless of how much you think your song is worth, you cant argue this.


#984128 - 11/15/12 03:28 PM Re: Why Free Music? [Re: December X]  
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Hey December,

I'll only ask you one question.

Have you ever been a paid professional musician ?

I have. And a lot of the other guys here also.

By saying "paid professional", I mean that I was never "famous" but made my living from music.

My wife and I were talking one day, about the changes in the music industry, and I wanted to give some perspective to a yoounger musician. It worked out that I was paid 2.5x the average wage ( plus expenses ) to do what I did. Plus free meals, beer, travel and accomadation.

A few gigs on national television ( live, and they scared the crap out of me ) , booked 5 nights a week, and some studio work.

If you got some royalties out of your music, then that was a bonus.

Now ? There is no work and I know very few musicians who can make a decent living. I'm certainly not in the main game, like many others.

Would any of us give our music away for free ? No. No professional muscian either now or then, would not do so. It's simply beneath them.

I'll simply ask again, have you ever been a professional musician ?

cheers, niteshift

#984129 - 11/15/12 03:41 PM Re: Why Free Music? [Re: niteshift]  
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Originally Posted by niteshift
Hey December,

I'll only ask you one question.

Have you ever been a paid professional musician ?

I have. And a lot of the other guys here also.

By saying "paid professional", I mean that I was never "famous" but made my living from music.

My wife and I were talking one day, about the changes in the music industry, and I wanted to give some perspective to a yoounger musician. It worked out that I was paid 2.5x the average wage ( plus expenses ) to do what I did. Plus free meals, beer, travel and accomadation.

A few gigs on national television ( live, and they scared the crap out of me ) , booked 5 nights a week, and some studio work.

If you got some royalties out of your music, then that was a bonus.

Now ? There is no work and I know very few musicians who can make a decent living. I'm certainly not in the main game, like many others.

Would any of us give our music away for free ? No. No professional muscian either now or then, would not do so. It's simply beneath them.

I'll simply ask again, have you ever been a professional musician ?


cheers, niteshift


yes, Ive played gigs in various clubs from decent to dives. I played in a wedding band for a while that never made enough, I do know that the standard fare for a gig was 100 bucks.

A friend talked me in to filling in for a friend couple months ago, I didnt want to do it cause I wasnt up on my sinatra repetorie but I did it for a friend,

I got paid 100 bucks.

LOL, the one thing that never changes is for most run of the mill gigs you will make 100 bucks.

I havent gigged where I was doing my own music though.

And I disagree, we've had plenty of covers cds for sale, and never sold many at all. And this is when cds were in vogue.

There was no such thing as "aww we're going to support these guys"

Hell no, they thought like most people think. Ill never listen to this so why would I buy it, im already buying food and beer!

Dont try to tell me the wonderous happy life of gigging. The best gigs Ive had is when We managed to jam pack the place with people we know. Usually when we had a new place and wanted to make it look like we had a big following.

Some venues that sell alot of beer you do better, but these are highly competetive.

Mostly, u make 100 bucks, i bet the calculator would land somewhere around that.

And lucky to sell one cd a gig.

No, we wouldnt have given a cd free then, because we were too concerned about the right now, not thinking that a cd circulating around could garner more interest, including more venue owners.

But being a musician and being an artist are different things. You dont get many gigs doing originals, not paying ones, so the music has to do it.

If your music is online, people feel somehow they can get it free.

Last edited by December Rock Star; 11/15/12 03:45 PM.
#984132 - 11/15/12 04:07 PM Re: Why Free Music? [Re: December X]  
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Hey December,

Yeah, I'm hearing what you are saying.

I gave it away, because in my day, I can't remember being paid less than maybe $250 a gig, and that was 20 yrs ago. And there may have been, quite often, firstly a pub gig, then a club gig till 4 in the morning.

I did that until perhaps the mid 90's , then the work just vanished.

Thank you for being honest.

I gave music away for 10 yrs, completely, because it became a stupid enterprise, financially.

Now that I've returned to it, I embbrace it in a new world. BUT, I still don't give it away for free.

Welcome to JPF and the baptism of fire. It was certainly good for me ( and has done great things for me ) and I hop it works the same way for you.

It's not nice to get a wake up call, but believe me, it's certainly worth the pain.

Best to you,

cheers, niteshift

#984134 - 11/15/12 04:15 PM Re: Why Free Music? [Re: niteshift]  
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If you were making 250 per night, and had 3 or 4 people in the band, the venue was paying you 1000 a night.

Seems high, Depends how well off the venue is.

Anyway, some gigs were really fun, some sucked.

But I wouldnt hesitate giving a cd away for free today. The cd actually costs something, defintly wouldn't hesistate to give away free downloads.

They wont buy it anyway, music is more like a promotional item. I know songwriters dont want to hear that.

Then again our songwriters are dwindling these days.

#984136 - 11/15/12 04:29 PM Re: Why Free Music? [Re: December X]  
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Hey December,

Yep, as I recall, we had a 6 piece bad, so that would have been about $1500 a night. Then, there was agents commision, so probably somewhrere about the $2k mark, if you wanted a decent band for your club.

It was simple. No band, no punters, and therfor no profit.

It all worked then, but not any longer. People don't want to listen to live music anymore, a DJ is way cheaper.

cheers, niteshift

#984143 - 11/15/12 04:39 PM Re: Why Free Music? [Re: niteshift]  
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Originally Posted by niteshift
Hey December,

Yep, as I recall, we had a 6 piece bad, so that would have been about $1500 a night. Then, there was agents commision, so probably somewhrere about the $2k mark, if you wanted a decent band for your club.

It was simple. No band, no punters, and therfor no profit.

It all worked then, but not any longer. People don't want to listen to live music anymore, a DJ is way cheaper.



cheers, niteshift


People have been going with djs over bands for at least 20 years now.

Maybe the most happening places down the Jersey Shore would pay 1500 to a band.

The reality is the economy is so bad people cant afford to go out like they used to. A night of partying at a club costs money that people dont have.

People think showing up is what u need, but u actually need them to buy food and beer and make the venue money.

Places who already sell alot of beer are the hard gigs to get.

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