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#981112 - 10/24/12 01:45 AM Gauging a tempo change for song ending  
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I dont think there is an official rule book for this, but I wondered how some of you approach this.

Lets say you have a song at 110 bpms, and you dont want to fade, you want an ending, and usually, the ending would slow down slightly.

So what would be a good baromter for your temp at the end.

It's kind of tricky because endings are more intricate than we think. A gradual slow down is hard to pull off using say, ezdrummer.

If I choose to use an online drummer, the problem would still be there. How do I get the drummer to slow down in time with the song.

Some songs are more slowed down than others, but I wondered if any of you have a standard protocol or mathematical formula for figuring this out.

Remember, your pretty much stuck to the same bpm for one measure in ezdrummer. So you cant slow it down by half a bar or qtr of a bar...

Thoughts...?

#981156 - 10/24/12 09:42 AM Re: Gauging a tempo change for song ending [Re: December X]  
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"So what would be a good baromter for your temp at the end" - Dec

A ritardando is executed by feel. Canít formulate that. If you must use a drum program, cut it at the ritard. Or if nothing else slow it down in short increments.

John smile

#981160 - 10/24/12 10:40 AM Re: Gauging a tempo change for song ending [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
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In Sonar, which I use, you can write in tempo changes and the track automatically follows it.
If you don't have that then John's suggestion is best.
Vic


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#981171 - 10/24/12 12:56 PM Re: Gauging a tempo change for song ending [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
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Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick
"So what would be a good baromter for your temp at the end" - Dec

A ritardando is executed by feel. Canít formulate that. If you must use a drum program, cut it at the ritard. Or if nothing else slow it down in short increments.

John smile


Yes well those increments are the whole thing. You can only slow down a program by measure.

This is one reason why you cant replace a real drummer. But most of us dont have a live drummer in house.

#981172 - 10/24/12 12:58 PM Re: Gauging a tempo change for song ending [Re: Vicarn]  
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Originally Posted by Vicarn
In Sonar, which I use, you can write in tempo changes and the track automatically follows it.
If you don't have that then John's suggestion is best.
Vic


I use sonar too, that works for wav sorces, and a very unnatural temp change at that, everything speeds and slows precisely the same amount.


#981188 - 10/24/12 02:03 PM Re: Gauging a tempo change for song ending [Re: December X]  
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How about playing the drum parts on a keyboard through your synth in Sonar, then you can pick your own timing?
"Natural" and "automation" though, are not easy to put together
Vic


It's never too late? Yes it is, so do it now.

If, given time, a monkey can write the complete works of Shakespeare maybe there's hope for me.
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#981196 - 10/24/12 02:30 PM Re: Gauging a tempo change for song ending [Re: Vicarn]  
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Originally Posted by Vicarn
How about playing the drum parts on a keyboard through your synth in Sonar, then you can pick your own timing?
"Natural" and "automation" though, are not easy to put together
Vic


That would be the only way I can think of as well. But the problem is you want the timing of the program for most of the song, it can then sound pretty noticable or bad, if the timing is not flawless, like it could sound like i did exactly what i did!


#981201 - 10/24/12 02:52 PM Re: Gauging a tempo change for song ending [Re: December X]  
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Not sure if this would work...

Change the duration of drum notes, i.e., make eighth-notes dotted-eighth-notes, quarter-notes dotted quarter-notes - then the next measure make dotted eighth-notes quarter-notes, dotted quarter-notes half-notes, etc.....

Maybe a combination of this and realtime playing.

John smile

#981205 - 10/24/12 02:57 PM Re: Gauging a tempo change for song ending [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
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Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick
Not sure if this would work...

Change the duration of drum notes, i.e., make eighth-notes dotted-eighth-notes, quarter-notes dotted quarter-notes - then the next measure make dotted eighth-notes quarter-notes, dotted quarter-notes half-notes, etc.....

Maybe a combination of this and realtime playing.

John smile


thats a thought.

its weird cause songs dont slow down at one rate they slow at increasingly slower rates, thats what makes it tough.

I cant be the first person to have to deal with it doing recording at home.

#981208 - 10/24/12 03:07 PM Re: Gauging a tempo change for song ending [Re: December X]  
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Was thinking what they should do is have a set of patterned endings to choose from, ones that are already sampled ritards that can be inserted into the back of the programs.

Not that you'd use that particular ending, but you can use it as a timing device to play, say your guitar with, Once you have the guitar played, then you can take that ending out and add your own playing of the drums over the guitar you recorded.

A perfect world.

#981209 - 10/24/12 03:27 PM Re: Gauging a tempo change for song ending [Re: December X]  
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"You can only slow down a program by measure" Dec

Maybe 2 beat measures (2/4) from the ritard section would work better than 4/4. Could make a tempo change every 2 beats (more gradual).

John smile


#981211 - 10/24/12 03:48 PM Re: Gauging a tempo change for song ending [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
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In the genre I write in, it usually works to end the drums completely at the beginning of the slowdown. If it doesn't, I add them manually, as Vic suggested.

This is probably a crazy idea and my memory might not be correct. I know that Audacity has a tempo change tool. I think you can select some portion of the track to apply it to. Might be a bit of work but you might be able to select a small portion of the track, decrease the tempo by a few BPM, decrease the next small section, decrease by a few more, and so on....to simulate a continuous decrease.

I don't know how small of a section it will allow you to select though. If not less than one measure, no good to you.

If my memory is correct and this would work, I'd recommend applying it to the drum track alone. Then bring the drum track up into your recording software and record the rest. My experience is that the Audacity tools often distort the sound unacceptably. Probably because it's free smile

Maybe the same could be done on more sophisticated software.

Scott

Last edited by Scott Campbell; 10/24/12 03:50 PM.
#981213 - 10/24/12 04:02 PM Re: Gauging a tempo change for song ending [Re: Scott Campbell]  
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I stop the program at the beginning of the ritard and either play the drums myself via a MIDI pad (a KORG Nano pad) in EZdrummer, or just use a cymbal roll with a final cymbal crash.


Colin

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#981224 - 10/24/12 05:54 PM Re: Gauging a tempo change for song ending [Re: Colin Ward]  
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In BIAB, I just start slowing the song down on a measure by measure basis. Here is a song that is 110 bpm and then I slow it down by 10% on two successive bars near the end: http://soundcloud.com/kevin-emmrich/12-blow-your-life-away (it slows down a little at ~2:30)


"It's supposed to be hard. If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The 'hard' is what makes it great."
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#981248 - 10/24/12 08:38 PM Re: Gauging a tempo change for song ending [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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Originally Posted by Kevin Emmrich
In BIAB, I just start slowing the song down on a measure by measure basis. Here is a song that is 110 bpm and then I slow it down by 10% on two successive bars near the end: http://soundcloud.com/kevin-emmrich/12-blow-your-life-away (it slows down a little at ~2:30)


Sounds acceptable, yet noticeable if u listen for it.

it helps that the song stops for just the vocal at the end, but there does seem to be a catch up feel at the amen part.

I think the real issue is all the instruments are ending precisely the same. in real band situations all players might be micro seconds off from each other, much like a real drummer and a drum machine, the machine is precise.

But it sounds good enough, thanks for sharing.

#982386 - 11/01/12 05:28 PM Re: Gauging a tempo change for song ending [Re: Scott Campbell]  
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Originally Posted by Scott Campbell
In the genre I write in, it usually works to end the drums completely at the beginning of the slowdown. If it doesn't, I add them manually, as Vic suggested.

This is probably a crazy idea and my memory might not be correct. I know that Audacity has a tempo change tool. I think you can select some portion of the track to apply it to. Might be a bit of work but you might be able to select a small portion of the track, decrease the tempo by a few BPM, decrease the next small section, decrease by a few more, and so on....to simulate a continuous decrease.

I don't know how small of a section it will allow you to select though. If not less than one measure, no good to you.

If my memory is correct and this would work, I'd recommend applying it to the drum track alone. Then bring the drum track up into your recording software and record the rest. My experience is that the Audacity tools often distort the sound unacceptably. Probably because it's free smile

Maybe the same could be done on more sophisticated software.

Scott


I tried this idea out. It's not bad. I had a song where the bridge slows, ran it in real time. then looking at the wave form, was able to figure out right where the change comes, and it worked.

Thanks for the idea, it will take alot more precision to get it finely tuned, but it's better than the alternatives so far

#982657 - 11/03/12 08:26 PM Re: Gauging a tempo change for song ending [Re: December X]  
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Hey December, I found out this can be done in Logic Pro (had no idea).

Using the pointer of the mouse in Logic's "tempo change mode", a curve can be drawn at the point you want the ritardando to start and end. Amazing technology.

John smile

#982866 - 11/05/12 02:00 PM Re: Gauging a tempo change for song ending [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
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Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick
Hey December, I found out this can be done in Logic Pro (had no idea).

Using the pointer of the mouse in Logic's "tempo change mode", a curve can be drawn at the point you want the ritardando to start and end. Amazing technology.

John smile


Thanks, I dont use a mac, but at least there are some answers out there.

#982886 - 11/05/12 05:11 PM Re: Gauging a tempo change for song ending [Re: December X]  
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hey an "uh huh" moment has occured.

A friend suggests that all daws have a tempo map that will play whatever tempo you want. Not believing it I just moused over all
the tools cakewalk has, and it couldnt be more easy
"insert tempo change"

Inserted it, and it worked. Now I can know exactly when and where to change tempos in the drum track itself and can follow the drum track for the other parts.

Embarasingly easy....gulp

Last edited by December Rock Star; 11/05/12 05:12 PM.
#982887 - 11/05/12 05:24 PM Re: Gauging a tempo change for song ending [Re: December X]  
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Originally Posted by December Rock Star
hey an "uh huh" moment has occured.

A friend suggests that all daws have a tempo map that will play whatever tempo you want. Not believing it I just moused over all
the tools cakewalk has, and it couldnt be more easy
"insert tempo change"

Inserted it, and it worked. Now I can know exactly when and where to change tempos in the drum track itself and can follow the drum track for the other parts.

Embarasingly easy....gulp


Yes, that's why I suggested making the measures 2/4 instead of 4/4. It would allow a tempo change every two beats instead of 4 (more gradual ritard). Probably could set it to one beat measures, though may have quirks with tempo changes that quickly.

Best, John smile

#982894 - 11/05/12 07:01 PM Re: Gauging a tempo change for song ending [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
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Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick
If you must use a drum program, cut it at the ritard.


That's how it's done, and then when the drums cut out, you play the ending freestyle on whatever instrument you have the best feel for, and then use that performance as the guide for the other tracks to follow. You play the final missing drum beats manually to match the music tracks.

Tempo changes inside the song are pretty tough to do with a drum program.

#982898 - 11/05/12 07:54 PM Re: Gauging a tempo change for song ending [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman
Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick
If you must use a drum program, cut it at the ritard.


That's how it's done, and then when the drums cut out, you play the ending freestyle on whatever instrument you have the best feel for, and then use that performance as the guide for the other tracks to follow. You play the final missing drum beats manually to match the music tracks.

Tempo changes inside the song are pretty tough to do with a drum program.


I used to have trouble with tempo changes, but ive grown and matured since then, ahemmm.

A plain piece of cake. The "insert tempo change" helps a lot. trying to do ti manually the changes werent sticking

Its not perfect. but If you add a drum fill before the break for example, all you need do is break the fill in half of tempo.

I was working on a song in 150, the bridge is 138, so the first part of the fill is 144, the second half of the fill 141, then a 138 tempo for the bridge, then it jumps back to 150.

Actually sounds similiar in timing and temp to this bridge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvWwtfKiGUk

What a great bridge, and, The Who's bridge is pretty good too.

#983972 - 11/14/12 05:43 AM Re: Gauging a tempo change for song ending [Re: December X]  
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As John states, this is trivial in most DAWs and Logic handles it very well with the Tempo Track. Click two points, pick a tempo change and it will evenly distribute inbetween.

Alas, Logic is Mac only. Though I'm betting Cubase, DP, Nuendo and Pro-Tools can all do the same thing.


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#984023 - 11/14/12 03:54 PM Re: Gauging a tempo change for song ending [Re: Jody Whitesides]  
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Originally Posted by Jody Whitesides
As John states, this is trivial in most DAWs and Logic handles it very well with the Tempo Track. Click two points, pick a tempo change and it will evenly distribute inbetween.

Alas, Logic is Mac only. Though I'm betting Cubase, DP, Nuendo and Pro-Tools can all do the same thing.


As Mark Kaufman stated, doing a temp change mid song is tough. I understand what he means, really the fix I found is only for the ezdrummer track, or a midi track of some kind.

it;s not perfect, as it requires a computerized intuition of how a song should slow as opposed to a manual human.

So all i can do is create the drum track and then follow that.

Would a real drummer be able to follow the changes presciely if I decided to remove the drum track? You cant really create two seprate click tracks in the same song, it wont work.

So its only as good as the ezdrummer track goes.

I dont have apple, but Im sure it's not a perfect temp change, as it will change all instruments at the same rate in a computerized fashion.

I wouldnt use one that slows the wave, it just doesnt seem right.

So I wouldnt call it trivial at all, Id call it "there is a solution, though not perfect"


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