JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Is this normal for a recording studio?

Justice is recording an album at Sadson Music Group's studio here in Lincoln. I want to outline what they are doing and ask --- Is this a normal thing for a studio to do - to get so involved. Until dealing with them, I was pretty much under the impression that most recording studios mostly just did the recording and engineering.

- I give them examples of songs and the structure and then they write the music. One of their studio musicians, usually Spencer Hansen or Lucas Kellison, writes the music.

- they have their studio musicians record the music - sometimes 15 separate tracks. Depending on the song, this includes keyboards, acoustic and electric guitars, bass, drums.

- I write the first draft of the lyrics.

- The producer arranges the vocal parts for Justice and a background singer.

- The producer, TJ Sadler, works out the melody, sometimes restructures the music tracks, gets additional music tracks recorded to match his vision for the song, does substantial re-writing of the lyrics, records a guide vocal for Justice to follow.

- TJ or Lucas (another producer) works with Justice on her vocals for the song.

- They record Justice's vocals - usually 2 to 4 hours in one or two sessions. As she records the producer works with her on each line. There are usually a number of vocal tracks for various parts of the song, background vocals, harmonies etc.

- They often get one of their studio singers to sing additional background vocals - again multiple tracks, for various parts and harmonies.

- They do a mix of the song. Often there are 30-40 separate tracks. I am usually there when they mix the song. They they burn a copy of the bounced track and we listen for some period of days and they make any final mix changes and master it.

I just wonder how other studios do it? I would appreciate hearing your experiences.

thanks

Tom

In addition my own home studio, I record in a local studio, the owner of which can do pretty much everything himself. He functions as the engineer and producer and is willing to play instruments and sing backup vocals as needed by the artist. The artist I typically work with brings in an original song and lays down a rough draft guitar vocal. Sometimes, we recommend changes to the melody and lyrics and usually he accepts them.

Then we usually lay down a proper rhythm guitar track and start adding bass, percussion, keys and more guitars. The owner plays some of the tracks and i play some of them. Then the artist does a real vocal track and we start adding backup vocals. Final additions are made, the owner does a quick mix and master and sends the artist home with a finished song for review. Final changes are made a few days later after the dust has settled and everyone has had a chance to identify problems and improvements.

The process varies with the size and abilities of the customer's band if he has one.

By comparison, your studio seems to do much the same thing but involves more people.

Other studios in our city operate much the same way from what I hear from friends who have recorded at them. I suppose the big buck studios in the music cities make everything more complicated, but the end result from our local guys sounds just as good, assuming the artist is up to snuff.

Hi Tom,

Just a few questions. You say you are Recording an "Album"
is this privately funded by you only?
What are the terms?

Is there a Label funding the project?
I ask because, if all of this activity is going on around the Artist and you are not aware if it is "Normal" or not is a bit troubling,because if you yourself has not mapped out the details of your arrangement for your Artist, then things are going to get complicated.

Is this all a "Work for Hire" because it seems they are actively "Co-writing" your songs, that is if there is no agreement prior stating otherwise.
If there is nothing in place that states the arrangement is work for hire then you are doing yourself and your Artist a great disservice if that is the situation.

I would expect all this to be a normal part of the process if there was an production agreement with the Studio with a Signed Artist they are producing.

We need more info.
Thanks for sharing this, because this post will help a lot of people in your position or before they find themselves in one of similar circumstances.
Best of luck!-Dana

Hi Tom

you are definitely getting gold plated service from that studio...and I am sure you are paying premium prices per track..

I would be interested to know the price per track agreed upon or do you just get in there and say let the meter run and I will pay whatever it is when I get there.?

best of luck to you

Tom

Tom,

I re-read what you wrote more carefully and have a couple more thoughts.........

The process I described for the studio here involves about 4 - 6 hours of studio time per song and includes everything from soup to nuts for roughly $300 per song. I am guessing you are spending a lot more than that.

I think your process is inefficient in a sense because you are starting to record before you have the song written. You are starting with a concept, creating the melody and then writing and re-writing lyrics to fit. I sometimes do that in my home studio because I can and it costs nothing but my time, but most people who are paying for studio time want to go in fully prepared and knock out the recording efficiently for cost reasons (with the exception of wealthy, big stars who don't care much about costs).

You might want to consider finding a co-writer who would work with you to develop the lyrics and melody more before you walk into the studio.

It depends on how much you are paying them It sounds a little like ‘seat of the pants’ stuff to me e.g. writing lyrics and music on the hoof in studio time – that could lead to expensive melodies and lyrics! Still, this may be their (or your) preferred way of working, as long as the studio get paid they will probably do whatever they feel is necessary. I suppose the proof of the pudding will be if you get some decent songs and recordings out of it then it’s probably worth it

Not the way I would do it.The artist should have the song learned before going into the studio.Learning it on studio time could drive up your cost.

Sounds like a modern pop style of record production, where the producer drives everything -- a la Max Martin.

Of course, his records cost a fortune to make.

A completely independent artist's take on it:
That is not at all normal. At least not at all like any session that I have ever been a part of. We always went in with a band and an already-written song, recorded the basics, did the overdubs, mixed, etc.
The producer may have made suggestions as to the arrangement or a tweak of a lyric, phrasing, or melodic phrase, but nothing like what you outlined.

Hey Tom,

Yeah, I'd say that is pretty much how production type songs are written.

It's hard to say if it's "normal" as I don't know the circumstance. Are the producers taking a cut ? , or being paid ouright ? Or maybe a combination of both. Are they involved in artist develpment ( for a cut ) or are you paying them as a work for hire ?

It's difficult to give an opinion on methodology without knowing the circumstance.

More information please.

cheers, niteshift

Dayson, great questions.

- This is the second album that Justice has recorded at this studio.

- I paid a fixed sum for the album.

- It is work for hire.

- Since I was an attorney in my prior life, there is written agreement.

Colin, sounds like a similar process. I appreciate you sharing that process - very informative.

Tom

Cost for the project (15 completed songs of which we will pick 12 for the cd) $12,000.

Tom, to answer your question in the strict sense, no it's not normal for a "sound studio." That's because most of what you are describing is the work of a producer. Now, to answer practically, yes, more and more studios are owned by producers. That's because the technology got less expensive and more user friendly. There was a time when a studio engineer had to know quite a bit about electronics, acoustics and physics, so studios were owned by true sound engineers. Now they are owned by producers, songwriters, publishers, musicians, managers, singers, lawyers, artists, music teachers, even banjo players!! So, the whole definition of "studio" is changing.

Here in Nashville there are studios that offer video production, mixing from folks' home studios, photography, legal services, cd duplication and replication, booking, food, transportation, image consultation, marital advice, vocal coaching, lodging, tour support, fishing, prayer and vitamin supplements. Yes, I've seen all of these offered by studios, LOL.

By the way, good price for that work. I'd suggest taking the extra songs and offering them as a bonus. For example, you could give people who buy a cd a code to download bonus songs by registering as a fan on Justice's website.

Yeah, I'd agree with Mr Mike to some extent.

It's not normal to write songs in a studio at the lower/middle end, but is quite acceptable to burn money at the high end. ( perhaps not any longer )

At this particular level, I'd say off the cuff, if you have unlimited time for a set price, then it's OK. But then again, I don't know the quality of the work that is being produced, nor the experise of those who are producing it.

I'll go away and have a think.....

cheers, niteshift

Colin, I completely understand your comments about efficiency. My background makes me want to do things in a neat, straight, linear fashion. But production is so important in pop music that in order to get the maximum quality and creativity, this messy process really seems to work. Ironically, it is more efficient that doing it in a linear fashion. The reason is that it is so difficult to fully envision what can be done and what things will sound like until one tries them out a bit. By doing a substantial part of the development process in the studio, we can do this.

Here is an example of what we did Monday evening on a new song for J. Present were, Justice, TJ (producer), Nick (sound engineer), me.

- Spencer Hansen had already written the music in the structure and style I had requested. The studio had the basic music tracks recorded - about 10 tracks.

- I had written draft lyrics to the music. Justice and I had reviewed the lyrics and she approved.

- TJ listened to the music tracks and read along with the lyrics. He developed a melody for the verses, pre-chorus and chorus.

- TJ added an intro with adlibs (which will actually be scripted but will sound like adlibs).

- TJ chopped the first verse in half (from 16 to 8 bars), using most of the lyrics I had written for the first 8 bars, but changing several words with me.

- He used the lyrics I had written for the last 8 bars of verse 1 for the pre-chorus. This eliminated the lyrics I had written for the pre-chorus.

- I had written a repeating chorus - same lyrics for 8 bars repeated for a total of 16 bars. TJ used most of these lyrics but only once; changed the phrasing, added a single repeating (three times) line at the end.

- TJ decided he wanted different music for the bridge.

- TJ recorded guide vocals for the intro, verse 1, pre-chorus and chorus. In the booth, he tried out various melodies for each part until he got what he envisioned.

- TJ and Nick restructured the tracks to the structure TJ wanted.

- They sent all the tracks back to Spencer Hansen for him to compose a new bridge. Spencer will have the new structure re-recorded as necessary.

At the next session we will finalize the bridge and verse 2 and the ending. TJ will work with J on the vocals and she will record scratch vocals to practice with.

Then J will record the final vocals. One of the Sadson studio singers will record background vocal tracks. TJ will add any additional music he wants and then mix it.

Colin, your note about developing the melody is well taken. I am not good at writing melodies. One of the most interesting things to me about current pop music is that the music does not determine the melody. I am so used to music from the 60's and 70's where the music does determine the melody that it is difficult for me to envision a melody that does not simply follow the music. TJ is very tuned into the pop scene and can do this - It is easier for him to do it in the studio.

Nigel - yea, you are right. Song development is part of the studio process for us. If you want to hear what we are doing you can hear some of the songs at my soundclick page - not finished but basically done.

Tom

Kevin - yea I guess so. I would really love to see some videos of the process for some of the songs done by the national pop artists.

Tom

Everett, during the song development process, J is in the studio, giving her ideas and getting an idea of the right approach to the song. She comes up with more an more ideas as she gets older.

During the recording of one song a couple weeks ago, she surprised TJ and I by singing a different line that what was written. While practicing the song she had come up with an idea --- it was great and we kept it.

Niteshift, it is all work for hire. Although I am not required to do so by our agreement I am going to give TJ and Spencer the statutory share of songwriting royalties, if we actually make anything.

Tom

Tom, I think that as long as you believe in the quality of their work, then you are doing a wise thing. You believe in Justice, so I think the best way to give her a REAL shot as a pop artist is to truly invest what it takes to give her a serious product. $12k with no string attached is a great price for that. Good luck with her career--I think it's wonderful that you are demonstrating your belief in her with serious commitment. That's an awesome Dad, and no one can take that away from the two of you.

Ok Tom, I've got a bit of a clearer picture of what's gong on.

I could write pages and pages about process, and different studios and methodology, but that doesn't help because it doesn't relate to circumstance.

Your and Justice's circumstance ? Simple, a young performer who is doing the real leg work, and like yourself, has their feet on the grond, and are doing the best that they can in a very difficult profession.

So my coments are straight foward, and not intended to cause any offence. I'll be brief, because otherwise, it will sound like a lecture. LOL

* Great stage presence, as a performer, and seeing her over the last couple of years, has naturally grown into the role
* Quite capable of handling the business and all that it has to throw
* Working well regionally, and expanding the cirlce as opportunities eventuate
* Now working on a 3rd album to further that hard work already put in

So, if I was a financial backer of this young lady, what would my thoughts be ? Random.....

* Hope and expect that she has on gong vocal tuition
^ Hope and expect that the dancing training is going the same way
^ Hope and expect that she remains the same fine young lady that she is

Your role ? Nurture and produce talent, in the best way you can.

In producing an album, your role.....

^ Juctice is a performer. The whole package. You may like to write your own songs, but that will come later
* On production terms alone, this is not the best way to write an album
* Is there concept, and is it precise to the goals of the performer ?
* On this point, if you simply asked Taxi for a producers listing ( free ), you would have maybe 500 songs to choose from, of which, ten would be way way better than what you are doing now
* Take those brilliant songs and make them happen, which you are quite capable of doing so

Sometimes Tom, it's a hard road, and I don't see any point, at this point of the process to be tied up in producing an album where there ground work for the album hasn't even been thought about.

Me ? I'd stop and re-group, and do some budget estimates, and projected outcomes.

As a lawyer, I'm assuming that you have a budget put aside for marketing ( double the production costs and then some ) and also a sound business plan for the video ( or two ) which will be at least the expense you have already outlaid.

If I sound like a complete ass Tom, you can shoot me tomorrow.

cheers, niteshift

Mark, thanks for the encouragement. It will be interesting to see what reception there is to the new album.

Niteshift - very thoughtful comments and excellent ideas. Nice to have your perspective. I did not know about the Taxi idea - what a great source --- will have to look into that for sure.

Always need to consider the base issues as you suggest - not just go on without a plan and thought.

I appreciate it.

Tom

Great for you the way it's going....and that it works for you...

I could personally never work this way....Melodies are always thought out in advance, Chord progressions...etc..

I guess I really use my Producer for Arrangement ideas, and to think of things I didn't...To take my ideas to a different level, but ok'd by me every step of the way....

I'm just a simple Singer/Songwriter....And I really take my time and yes i have to have full control of where my tunes are going...

Of course I need to play em live too

Yes...most studios do it like that or a little different. If you already have your own beats for the song, you can just record your vocal for what ever price they charge.

Mike, thanks for the perspectives. Considering what you say, it seems like a great thing - broadening the concept of a studio and the production process. I very much appreciate your insights Mike.

Tom

Steve, I can certainly understand that. You have the multiple talents to do it all yourself. I appreciate your perspective.

Tom

Niteshift, you hit on a very important issue ---- the quality. That really is what it gets down to.

Tom

Just as an FYI, this is the itinerary that I was sent from the guy with whom I am recording soon:


This is for just a single song and, assuming that I am coming in with a well-rehearsed band (which I will be).

pt, great info. thanks.

Tom

That answer is No. No they don't.

Hi buddy, What's happening with you is just based on your situation. The more that you need and that you don't have at your disposal. It's that you have so many multiple people involved in this project. Seems every single aspect of Justin's music career is split up amongst a number of people.

So the situation seems accommodating and normal from that perspective.

Your first concern THEY write the music.. NOPE that is not a recording studio's job at ALL. It can be a producers job but that's it.

or THEY tell her how to sing something, no again... Yes the producer helps with that but is he a co-writer???

You are probably fine, but just be careful of every one thinks belongs to them and how you go about your Biz arrangements with studio's and producers.

I'm personally 100% the opposite of you guys, okay I'm not a shopping artist. But I literally do every possible aspect of a song myself. I produce and Mentor a few young artists.
THEY write the songs, lyrics and music. I help develop those songs, perform on them, record them, mix them and master them.

Just two of us basically..... So just make sure everybody involved is aware of there place in all this... and you should be okay. Looks like THEY supply what you demand

All the best Tom, hi to Justice

Mike

I'm going to 2nd Mike's answer. No, it's not normal.

I'd also say, if it were me, and someone came to me saying: "Hey, here's some examples of other songs that I like, can you write me some music that is similar." The first thing I'm going to respond with is, "Is this a co-write?"

The fact that they're not asking for co-write status when they're the one's writing the music, is not normal at all. I would make that very clear from the get go. Do you have it in writing that this isn't a co-write? Do you have it in writing that it's a work for hire?

I'd say there's a lot of blurring of the lines going on in your situation and it's the kind of thing that should Justice actually get signed and start making real money, can come back to bite you in the butt with lawsuits.

The kind of work they're putting in based on your description is certainly not something I'd do as a work for hire. Because it's actual writing, and writing decisions.

Consider it lucky, and be careful.

Mike, first and most importantly, I am so glad that you finally have received some attention from the medical community. I hope that this is the first step on the road to your recovery.

Thanks for the comments and perspective. As you know I respect your views very much. Yea, Justice and I are so much the opposite of you. I see you as being a genuine talent as a singer, musician, producer and recording engineer. An impressive combo, Mike.

This process seems to work for us. We have recorded the music for 14 of the 15 songs and J has recorded vocals for 10 of the songs. All of the lyrics (at least first draft) are done.

I really enjoy reading about how others do it. The process is very interesting to me. I also appreciate the many suggestions of what we should consider doing differently. It really helps.

BTW, everyone reading this, drop everything and watch Mike's video on Brooklyn. ----- Mike could you give us the link? I can't find it.

Your friend from Nebraska

Jody, thanks man. You got it. Good points. I did not make it clear but I am listing Spencer Hansen as a co-writer on the songs. I am also listing TJ as a co-writer on most of the songs since he has contributed so much to them. These are not nominal co-writer credits. They are very real. They certainly deserve the credit - and any proceeds that many come. Also, Justice is a co-writer on a couple songs - she is getting more involved in this process.

Thanks Jody.

Tom

I had my own equipment back in the days of reel-to-reel Teacs. Since things got complicated, I let studio professionals do the technical work.

Jim, when I was in college I had a recording setup with reel to real Teacs also....and little aluminum cutting block and some razor blades and tape.splicing tape. Four tracks- not forty. I produced an album and had it manufactured - Ranch Music.

Tom