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This is an old joke updated for this election....



Alltalk Obama and Twit Romney were sitting in a bar in Washington, discussing what each was telling the American voter in order to get elected.


Alltalk said "I'm telling America to vote for me because I will raise the tax rates of the rich to help spur business growth and job creation, that I saved the banking system by enacting new regulations, and that I will restore the American economy to its former glory.


Twit responded by saying "Well I'm telling America to vote for me because I will reduce the tax rates of the rich to help spur business growth and job creation, that I will save the banking system by reducing red tape, and that I will restore the American economy to its former glory.


Some further discussion centered on how their policy advisers could think America could possibly swallow either message, and they concluded that they must have thought the average American voter was simply be too dumb to know any better.


Alltalk decided to test this theory, so they left the bar and hailed a cab.


"Take us to the White House would you,"  Alltalk instructed the cabby, "I'd like you to help us find out if that is where we are"


Without saying a word, the cabby drove off, deposited them in front of the White House entrance, and disappeared into the night.


"Wow" said Alltalk turning to Twit, "that guy was really stupid"


"So true" said Twit, "he has a cell phone, he should have just called"

This election reminds me a lot of 2004. The Democrats ran the only candidate that could possibly lose to Bush, John Kerry, perhaps their worst nominee ever. In 2012, the Republicans have repaid the favor. The only possibly worse candidate they could have run this year was Pawlenty, so of course they are considering him for VP.

Sigh.

Brian

PS: I didn't get the joke.. I think the "updating" may have failed. But if it meant to point out both sides suck bad, then I agree.

Hi John and Brian:

I too, missed the point. I thought the names selected for the two "characters" were humorous though.

I agree, Brian. We Conservatives are left with the choice of voting for a man we sincerely doubt is a real conservative. Regardless, I would vote for Mickey Rooney or Kinky Friedman in lieu of guaranteeing the completion of the wealth re-distribution plan of our Hubristic 44th President, Mr. Obama.

I believe Obama will be forever relagated to last place when compared with previous Presidents. Surrounded by liberals, socialists and degenerates, this man is receiving some extremely bad advice. Now I see they are "enlisting" Bill Clinton to help with the campaign. God save us. We probably won't survive as a nation if the Democrats win.

Whew... I'm glad I wasn't the only one that didn't get the joke. I was getting a headache trying to figure it out.

John

Well,
It's getting down to the Nitty Gritty isn't it. The "Annointed One" is finally starting to show his true Colors. THE PRIVATE SECTOR IS DOING FINE but YOU DIDN'T BUILD THAT, SOMEONE ELSE DID. I have now percieved that Obama got his Education in Vaudville. He keeps repeating the same mantra, WITH YOUR MONEY AND MY BRAINS, WE WILL GO PLACES. Then I am reminded of that old George Jones song, AIN'T NO MONEY IN THIS DEAL. Maybe people are singing that old song, CASH ON THE BARRELHEAD, by the Louvin Bros. There is a Country song in there somewhere.

I actually thought it made the candidates look dumb and the voter look smart

It was a stupid question, a stupid response, and the cabby drove off with the fare money.


edit...and of course it is stupid to suggest that diametrically opposed policies could yield the same result for all.

Yeah...it would really be great if you guys could refrain from posting anything political during this election season. None of it is terribly funny or meant to spur a good conversation.

Actually it was some of the heated threads, and the nasty things people were saying about each other, that made me stop being an active member in this community several years ago.

I had checked back to see if the discussions had matured somewhat...they didn't. It's too bad.

This is supposed to be a forum about music. Can we just keep it focused on the music and leave political opinions at the door?

Cheezo01,

Political discussions here and throughout the web attract people who like to argue and bully. Such threads feed feelings of revenge and schadenfreude, and are often inhabited by those afflicted with problems like, for example, borderline personality disorder. These discussions often descend into personal attacts and boorish behavior. They can lure the most genial of folk into anger and escalation.

But this is not limited to discussion about politics. Simple opinion attracts like conduct. Some folks are quite adept at such things and can take over the tone of an entire forum. I'm sorry that our heated discussions have led you to taking a less active role here at JPF, but I understand it, they have done the same for me.

I must confess that for a long time I enjoyed debating politics and opinion here on the board, but have come to realize that in the virtual world of the web, such debate never has resolution and simply goes on in an unending cacaphony that spirals into meanness and aggression. Quite simply, the meannest folk take over. I've lately entered such discussions in a limited manner, trying to present my position and allowing myself only a few exchanges.

I see value in the art community to be able to share their differing opinions, but I don't see how it is possible to carry on such discussions without each thread having clear rules to which posters agree and a dedicated moderator who can be present nearly continuously. It's simply not possible, so my vote would be "no politics." Expressing opinion about music is difficult enough.

These political discussions would go a lot easier if everyone just agreed that my opinion was the correct one.

Of course, I first have to figure out what my opinion is!

I apologize that what I thought was a funny joke seems to have taken a wrong turn here, especially after the Denver thread fiasco which Brian thankfully disposed of in the trash where it belonged.


It was certainly not intended to stir up any political debate at all, rather it was meant to introduce some levity and hopefully a chuckle. Lampooning political figures goes on all the time, and I thought this was, in fact, clever.


Having said this, any discussion is at the mercy of participants, and unfortunately, there are many people out there in the on line world who, for whatever reason, like to stir the pot. And there are of course people who do not understand a point, or who carry baggage that blinds them to the point or discussion.


Furthermore, this is an on line community whose primary purpose revolves around music and creative activities, but because it is a community, people share ideas around other events and topics that have touched them. So although I see the value in a "no politics, no religion, no gay, no abortion, no (insert controversial issue here) music only policy, that will not stop the trolls and flamers and the spectrum dysfunctional behaviour.


So I do see value in allowing those discussions as an outlet (people, especially artists, feel and are deeply affected by certain events and topics), but enforcing a code of conduct that centers on mutual respect, which can be self policed by participants and ultimately enforced by Brian.


And to Cheeze and Mike, I am sorry that what has happened in the past has tainted and limited your participation here...

Gee guys:

Sorry you were offended by free speech on the general discussion forum. The thread was not started by me but it was a politically oriented joke John posted... then commmented on by our Founder.

I've tried my best to keep my opinions to myself but every now and then, a demonic flaw in my character causes me to express my constitutional right to say what I believe is right. No profanity and no personal attacks on the other thread participants.

This will be the most important election in the entire history of the United States of America.

Cheeze, welcome back to JPF. Glad you returned and I hope you will consider sticking around. There are other threads, you know.
Mike, being a Christian gets more difficult every day and I hope you'll remember me in your prayers next Sunday.

All the best,

Dave

Hey John, no problem with me. Anything's open for discussion. If you need to know anything about sex, just ask me.

Dopey me just didn't get the joke. I'm still trying to figure it out. I reckon that's more of a joke than the joke.

Best, John

Dave, it's not about free speech. It is, of course, a constitutionally protected right to say and think whatever you want. But it being a protected right doesn't mean exercising it is always wise or prudent.

I understand that discussion on these topics is good, and if respectful, can even be healthy and productive. Unfortunately, the trolls seem to take over fast and ruin any chance of a productive conversation and reduce everything to the lowest common denominator. Especially when people start throwing out blanket terms like liberals, conservatives, socialists, fascists...etc. and following that up with a snarky phrase or insult.
Firstly, it makes no sense because it is an impossibility for all liberals or conservatives to think, act, and believe the same thing such that they can be typified by the insult.
Secondly, adversarial language like that is not language that seeks a solution, it only seeks conflict, and usually finds or creates it.
Thirdly, most of the major complaints of the "other side" are largely imagined, misunderstood, misinformed, or misrepresented. We're fundamentally, on a global scale, a nation of centrists that spends more energy than anyone else deciding whether to lean slightly left or right (with a small percentage of outliers, of course, that polarize the conversation).
So while speech like that is protected it isn't productive.
I'd love to just focus on the music, but I remember when it got so heated on here with some threads that the whole atmosphere got a little toxic.

I just thought I'd make the request to avoid political discourse as the election season ramps up because, as we know, this stuff is so quick to pull people into opposite camps. The motto of this site is that "we're all in this together."

I just wanted to voice my concern that polarizing political threads aren't an effective way of achieving that goal.

Like Mike said...music is a challenging enough subject to tackle.

But hey...feel free to disagree. What do I know? I'm just a guy with a guitar and a trunk full of CD's I can't seem to sell.

Because I'm trying to understand your point Cheezo, are you saying these discussions should not take place because it draws the trolls and flamers who drag the conversation down?

Hi BurleyBuddy...

I didn't get the joke entirely, but then, I'm not entirely Enthused about Either Candidate.

AM awaiting a slight uptick in Business when all the Politicos swarm down here in Tampa to make Romney the Candidate of Choice.

Prolly won't happen...but..just like the last 4 Years, We'll See.

I've never felt LESS like voting for a President...but...again, We'll See..heh!

As for Political Discussion...Why Not? The Election IS an Important One...yet..it's the Small Businessfolk who make or break the Taxes for whoever Wins...& if Either Candidate has a MasterPlan that Works...We'll See...

Big Biz..& The Wealthy..will always find ways to avoid their share of Taxes. (Just SEE how they're financing this Election!)

Best Wishes & Continual Big Guy-Hugs,
Stan

With absolutely no disrespect meant to John(I love ALL things Canadian, but I guess I'd have to say I'm in Cheezo's camp on this one, although no one's suggesting the "banning" of free speech. But I avoid getting involved in any political discussions because I've never seen evidence of even one, single, solitary, soul, who has EVER had their perspective enlightened by one.

What I HAVE seen evidence of, is harsh, hardheaded, confrontational, devisive, abusive forays into the land where friendships(or at least potential future collaborations) have been permanently shattered.

I like to see the best in Folks, but the old respecto-meter plummets drastically during these "debates". After about the third post in any of them, I(and pretty much anyone else who would care to try) could write the next two pages all by myself because everyone is so frickin' predictable....

...Hhhmmm....Maybe that's the cardinal sin of them for me. They're so predictable as to be boring, and boring is, well, BORING!!!....And certainly does not show the JPF Community to be one of much love and understanding....But hey, I'm a grown boy and know's how to not click onto a thread, so have at it.

Midnite

I am not sure why a handful, or like now, currently only 1 single topic, this one, that I am aware of, is political in nature on a site with nearly 1 million active posts and thousands of visitors each day would keep someone away? Do you think it even possible for a site this large NOT to have a handful of posts that might annoy any living human being at any given time? Why would you go looking for the needle in the haystack and forget the haystack itself when you find it and it sticks in your finger and bothers you? Cheez, I think you doth protest too much. It's just as tired of an argument that people should shut up so as not to offend anyone as the predictable occasional break outs of political discussion during what is the most divisive election year in modern US history. If, as the moderator of this massive board, I don't let folks blow off a little predictable steam now and then, it will just as likely keep other members away for the opposite reason you give. The bottom line, if you don't like political posts, why in the world would you not only READ one, but also engage in it too?

We do have rules which apply to everything: No gratuitous personal attacks on other members. It's right there in the site rules you had to agree to before you were allowed to register to use this site. Heated issues on many topics pop up around here and we have to moderate them when someone goes too far and if it's a case of a troll, we nuke them, especially if they are anonymous, in which case we give them zero benefit of the doubt.

I think it is informative because it proves that musicians are far from similar to each other politically. I have always seen that as I toured 48 of the 50 states for nearly 20 years. But our site has been a mixing ground for all viewpoints for a long time as has our incredibly diverse membership from over 160 countries and across more than 100 different genres of music. The message board is but a tiny subset, but it is illustrative of many broader viewpoints in our entire community.

I spend a lot of time in DC working on issues that affect the music community. Sometimes I am on one parties side, sometimes I am against them on an issue. Sometimes they help me tremendously and sometimes the very same people are our adversaries. Discussions get VERY heated, yet those folks "get" it. At the end of the work day, there's an awful lot of R's going to dinner or for drinks with the D's. Myself, I rarely agree with either party and don't align myself with them. I remember one very contentious argument in front of TV camera's and live Radio with a particular organization which got a lot of coverage, but a year later that same org. helped a friend of mine's family survive when he had brain cancer and couldn't feed them.

There's a large number of people here who I disagree with on almost everything there is to disagree on. One in particular was still important enough to me that we flew across the ocean and spent 3 days of our trip just to drive up and have dinner with him. And he's not the only one. As long as personal attacks remain on the side and out of sight, I want to hear people's opinions. I need to be informed on a wide range of things and political season is important too. I love nothing more than an intense back and forth with someone who disagrees with me but keeps it civil and productive. Attacks happen when people have lost and have no other course of action than to attack. It's the result of a feeble mind trying to express itself forcefully with nothing of value to say.

So feel free to find a fault and blame it for why you don't come around. Any one will do. This is a free world and frankly, a reason isn't even needed to stay or go. We'd prefer you stick around and share your experiences with us and perhaps someone here can even help with those CD's in your trunk. But no need for an announcement. But certainly say what you think, or avoid a discussion, if you can't find plenty to talk about among the 10 million pages of text on the site, you aren't looking very hard. And if all you can find is this post, you're looking too hard for the wrong thing.

Brian

Well,
All things considered I have never forgot how great is to live here in the U.S. I have never taken my country for granted. True there are many places on the Planet I would be just as happy to live in. Heck, i even like Country Music, and even tho that uh, So and So over there in whatit's place stirs up the pot about most everything we are all in this together so I will continue to tolerate as much as is possible! This time i am voting for George Washington and my wife is voting for Abraham Lincoln so you see what politics is like in my house!