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#954533 - 04/12/12 09:15 PM When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Michael Zaneski  Offline
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California
Hi y'all...

This is an awful way to break a three year silence...

This is a soft rant I've been holding back for awhile...I am like the TV character "Monk" in some ways, and the following has been driving me crazy for awhile...I personally know a few really good writers who are "trapped" by a rule...I will not "out" them...

Rules are slippery things. We are taught that identity rhymes are bad. Usually, this is true. But what about single syllable (same/identity) words, at the end of a line, that are unstressed, that are preceded by a STRESSED, RHYMED WORD?

examples...

KNOW you/SHOW you
deLETE me/comPLETE me
MY home/FLY home
TEACH me/REACH me

These are legitimate, "okay" DOUBLE rhymes, though technically, those last syllables are indeed identity rhymes...Why are they okay? Mainly because the stress is NOT on the identity. I would also point to the fact that rules are actually extrapolated from the tens of thousands of popular songs. They are not conceived of by some "rule-maker" high up in the hills somewhere.

As such, this type of rhyming is actually very common, though it has NO TECHNICAL NAME. It is simply a subset of feminine rhymes. Feminine rhymes are any stressed rhyming SYLLABLE, followed by ANY unstressed rhyming syllable. "TEACH me/REACH me" is just as legit as notion/potion.

Duh, you say? (yes, I agree...) Fortunately, this seems obvious to most of us. Here's the problem...There are SOME (otherwise) good writers that seem to avoid ANY and ALL identity rhymes (I know a few, personally...), like the plague. Some do this consciously, most unconsciously)...

The reason may be because, in all the "rulebooks" and songwriter books, ALL the examples listed for double rhymes, triple rhymes, etc. are for two syllable words (nation/station)and three syllables (curious, furious)...and so, if one is formulating "the rules" in ones head, based on these examples...and YES, at JPF, you hear people bad-mouthing identity rhymes without an "asterisk"...and so, some have come to the conclusion that, since the last words are the same, they are BAD identity rhymes that one must steer clear of. Wrong.

Many of these okay identity rhymes are simple NOT good, because of their high cliche factor. In most cases, you might want to avoid "love you/above you" simply because it is so overworked. But otherwise...

So maybe there's just one of you that reads this that can add this to their toolbox...my aim is NOT to embarrass anyone...I just hate to think that a few of you have limited what you think you can rhyme, based on what appears to be a rule, but is not. There SHOULD be an asterisk, next to the "identity rule" saying that SOME are part of a feminine rhyme scheme. No "rule book" explicitly says this, and I know there is a (albeit very) small minority that follow what they believe to be "the rules" to a tee...as I said, rules are slippery things...

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 04/14/12 07:05 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#954534 - 04/12/12 09:25 PM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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DonnaMarilyn Offline
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DonnaMarilyn  Offline
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Mike, how wonderful to see you again! smile

And I enjoyed your 'soft rant'. wink In fact, I often use these types of rhymes, albeit avoiding 'love/above', etc., like the proverbial plague. grin

Donna


Honour the Earth. Without it, we'd be nowhere.

Life is too important to take seriously.

http://www.reverbnation.com/donnamarilynrichblend




#954543 - 04/12/12 10:47 PM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: DonnaMarilyn]  
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Jean Bullock Offline
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I think whatever works .... works. Were you really staying away because of that?


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#954558 - 04/12/12 11:43 PM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Jean Bullock]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Michael Zaneski  Offline
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Jean,

LOL NO! I wasn't consciously staying away at all! Did I say I was? I had/have just been really busy...with the great adventure of caring for my mother, among other things, who is now 95, but still has a good day now and then...it has been an emotionally draining time for me, and I felt like I couldn't really contribute much here.

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 04/12/12 11:43 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#954559 - 04/12/12 11:49 PM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Jean Bullock]  
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R. Shayne Vaughan Offline
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R. Shayne Vaughan  Offline
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Michael,
Let's focus for a moment on the word, "okay". If you want to write for yourself, family, and friends, anything is okay; there are no rules/guidelines/perimeters; however, if you are writing for the market, like it or not, there are...mostly anything overused, whether it's rhyme mates or phrases. If you should hear anything overused on the radio, it's most likely written by the artist or an associate, who can easily get by bending and breaking any rule. Outside writers have to actually write better songs to get past the gatekeepers.

Rule of thumb: if you've heard it before, try not to use it.

Artists, record labels, and publishers are all trying to find fresh ways of saying common things.

I only use perfect rhymes when there is nothing else that sounds as good.


“I usually start with a title or maybe a little rhyme or phrase.” - Harlan Howard

Co-writing = Compromise!


#954561 - 04/12/12 11:53 PM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: DonnaMarilyn]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Michael Zaneski  Offline
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California
Thanks Donna!

Good to hear from you, too...

Yeah, it seems more common in Broadway stuff...but it works great with proper names, makes the song seem more personal, "I was feeling so hum drum, Donna/then I finished off your rum, Donna..."

I'll try to get back here more often... smile

Mike


Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#954562 - 04/13/12 12:03 AM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: R. Shayne Vaughan]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Michael Zaneski  Offline
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Shayne,

You are preaching to the choir with me ("there are no rules, avoid cliches, etc...")... In my post, I say that it is the COMMON USAGE drawn from the tens of thousands of songs, that accounts for the (QUOTE) "rules"...if we want to feel good about doing something, it IS GOOD for it to have SOME precedent, no? Otherwise, perhaps we are intuitive (songwriting) geniuses, with guts of steel...

I am talking (mostly) about younger writers who don't know that, and who may have internalized the unwritten rules to mean that NEVER could an identity rhyme be any good. Based on the songwriting literature out there, it is not such a difficult leap to imagine some writers avoid some things, simply because they think they are bad choices, based on what they have learned about songwriting.

On the other hand, I disagree with your "rule of thumb"...If you threw out everything you ever heard before, you would have maybe two lines left in a song, as most of what we do is built on the shoulders of others, with a little uniqueness thrown in, here and there. We don't plagiarize, but we have learned the knack of saying same the "same things, over and over, in different ways". Personally, I think true uniqueness/creativity may be in finding ways to make little used subjects/topics the objects of songs, but that's the material for another thread.

If we make "being unique" the main criterion for how and what we write, aren't we writing ourselves into a corner? Sometimes to get to a TRULY UNIQUE THOUGHT, we have to approach it with more common, mundane ones, thereby insuring that the listener is following. IOW, it's easier to navigate a landscape with SOME sign posts.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 04/13/12 12:20 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#954563 - 04/13/12 12:26 AM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Lynn Orloff Offline
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Lynn Orloff  Offline
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PA of the great USA
Hi Michael, so good to see you. You are to be commended for taking such good care of your aging mother. In a world where there is so much selfishness, it is not as common as you think to look after our loved ones, so God bless you!!

Ahhhh rhymes! You hit on a subject near and dear to my heart! love Remember rules are "tools", nothing less, nothing more, nothing else. Concerning identical versus soft (I love both) it all depends on the total lyric and the genre and the melody. If I am writing a song that sounds like it's from the 50's and I want it to, identical rhymes are the standard, acceptable, and expected. If I write in traditional country that would probably apply as well. If I write in modern country, soft rhymes are preferred but not required, or atleast have a mix of both leaning preferrably to more of the soft rhymes. If I write a children's song one would expect to find identical rhymes. If I am writing a jazz song I think identical and soft work. If I am writing in the adult easy listening genre, again both types are welcome though the lyrics may be more sophisticated. So much depends on the totality of the lyric. If a "perfect" rhyme seems like a natural fit and not forced, by all means use it!!!! If someone hears a great song because the melody just takes thems right in, they will not be discussing the ratio of identical to soft rhymes, trust me. Again the totality of the song is the focus w/the melody being key (pun intended). smile

I love the hard, crisp, distinct sound of identical rhymes, but I also love the surprising and natural rhymability of soft rhymes and how in the sing of a song two words that don't sound alike somehow do when they are sung. When I write or rhyme I don't think hard about it at all, I just write(to my detriment or betterment).

Another example of a fool's rule. We've heard that yoda speak is taboo and should be avoided, BUT here is a link to a hit song sung by Bruno Mars (85 million hits) whose very hook is yoda "Everyday It Will Rain" as opposed to the normal way of saying it will rain everyday.

http://youtu.be/W-w3WfgpcGg

Rules are tools
But rules can be broken
When it comes to a song
Best to keep options open


Best to you,
Lynn smile


My Music at Soundclick
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=788266

~call it a blessing or call it a curse, but I see all of life in verse~

Always open to collaborations smile

God Bless Our Military!!!
#954564 - 04/13/12 12:34 AM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Lynn Orloff]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Michael Zaneski  Offline
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California
Thanks Lynn,

I am not speaking about perfect vs. near rhymes at all, but
"identity rhymes"

In my examples, I capitalized the STRESSED word, like Tampa Stan used to, showing where the stress was, NOT to show a perfect rhyme! Notice the last words in those examples are exactly the same in each couplet. THAT'S what I'm talking about IDENTITY rhymes, as in EXACTLY the SAME words, at the end of two rhyming lines.

"Now I am forlorn, Lynn
My insides tossed and torn, Lynn"

You see it alot with pronouns, but any identity word (used at the end of two lines in "rhyming proximity") can have an acceptable usage in a song, provided that it is unaccented, and PRECEDED by an ACCENTED rhymed word.

I agree with what you say about perfect rhymes and near rhymes, but that, alas, was not what I was talking about, and I am sorry that I was not clear enough in my post.

Mike


Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 04/13/12 12:51 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#954566 - 04/13/12 12:49 AM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Lynn Orloff Offline
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Lynn Orloff  Offline
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PA of the great USA
Forgive my misunderstanding, Mike
I hope I don't get a branding, Mike
My plane's come in for landing, Mike
Your points are all outstanding, Mike smile

Michael, forgive me, I got caught up in the moment. I love identity rhymes. love Here is a lyric from a classic where identity rhymes are abundant and wonderful. Actually writing in that style and having it work well, is quite a bit trickier than standard rhyming and I appreciate the craft. And, of course, this type of rhyming suits well this genre. I'll give much due credit to the writers Alan and Marilyn Bergman (a husband and wife songwriting dream team) and composer Michel Legrand. Wish I wrote this song, but thank God someone did....

http://youtu.be/vQWqmiHK-WE

What are you doing the rest of your life
North and south and east and west of your life
I have only one request of your life
That you spend it all with me

All the seasons and the times of your days
All the nickels and the dimes of your days
Let the reasons and the rhymes of your days
All begin and end with me

I want to see your face in every kind of light
In fields of dawn and the forests of the night
And when you stand before the candles on a cake
Oh let me be the one to hear the silent wish you make

Those tomorrows waiting deep in your eyes
In the world of love that you keep in your eyes
I'll awaken what's asleep in your eyes
It may take a kiss or two

Through all of my life
Summer, winter, spring and fall of my life
All I ever will recall of my life
Is all of my life with you



My Music at Soundclick
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=788266

~call it a blessing or call it a curse, but I see all of life in verse~

Always open to collaborations smile

God Bless Our Military!!!
#954568 - 04/13/12 01:01 AM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Lynn Orloff]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Michael Zaneski  Offline
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Thank you thank you thank you, Lynn...

That Michel Legrand is a GREAT song and a good example, and good examples will help some who may have swallowed the "unwritten rules" ...and see this fantastic example, and better understand what I am talking about.

"of your life" becomes a mini hook, by using it like that, but it is technically three identity words in a row, OVER and OVER again!!!

IOW, there are a few out there that would never even CONSIDER that, because of the identity issue, taking precedence, in their minds.

But then they would miss out on

"...what are you doing the REST of your life/ north and south and east and WEST of your life"

In fact, those are all quite legitimate quadruple rhymes, all being set up with stressed rhyming words (rest/West/request...times/dimes/rhymes)followed by three consecutive secondarily stressed identity rhymes (of your life/of your life/of your life...of your days/of your days/of your days...).

Now I am happy smile smile

MIke

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 04/13/12 01:17 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#954574 - 04/13/12 01:29 AM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
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Mike Dunbar  Offline
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Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Great stuff.

In reality, there are NO rules to art. Only observations of things that have "worked" for some people. Almost all of the strategies and devices that are now considered to be recipes for good music have, in the past, been considered mistakes.

I recommend that songwriters and musicians listen a lot to music that they like and continue exploring to find more and more music that they like. Learn that music, digest it, and that will make you a better songwriter and/or musician. Analyze why you don't like some music and that will make you an even better musician.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#954576 - 04/13/12 01:46 AM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
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Lynn Orloff Offline
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Lynn Orloff  Offline
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PA of the great USA
I'm happy you're happy Michael and now I'm happy smile

now you got me goin' Mike
your happiness is showin' Mike
your face is all a glowin' Mike
these rhymes just keep a flowin' Mike


My Music at Soundclick
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=788266

~call it a blessing or call it a curse, but I see all of life in verse~

Always open to collaborations smile

God Bless Our Military!!!
#954577 - 04/13/12 01:54 AM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Exactly, Mike.

That's what "music theory" taught me...you looked at how some composers wrote their music. Then, you put them (Bach, Beethoven, Stravinsky, Reich) on a timeline in your head, with yourself at the very end of the timeline. In this way we are taught, in "Music Theory", that what has come before CAN be an influence, but we can be as innovative as we damn please! Or as "copycat", if we choose...We have that luxury, being alive, at the "end-of-the-timeline" so to speak, to write "how we feel" ...as did, ironically, Bach, in his time...

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 04/13/12 01:54 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#954585 - 04/13/12 02:55 AM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
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Originally Posted by Mike Dunbar
Great stuff.

In reality, there are NO rules to art. Only observations of things that have "worked" for some people. Almost all of the strategies and devices that are now considered to be recipes for good music have, in the past, been considered mistakes.

I recommend that songwriters and musicians listen a lot to music that they like and continue exploring to find more and more music that they like. Learn that music, digest it, and that will make you a better songwriter and/or musician. Analyze why you don't like some music and that will make you an even better musician.


...rereading this...I am reminded of Harold Bloom's "the Anxiety of Influence" ...in that...REALLY, really liking an artist can put one in a position of being over-influenced by him/her, and the "anxiety" part is that, coming AFTER that artist, we need to differentiate ourselves from him/her, before we can be true artists ourselves. Bloom was talking about novelists, mostly, but the theory holds, in all the arts.

I think the beginnings of Blooms theory are in Freud's relationship with Jung, where Freud rationalized that Jung had to "betray him" --to metaphorically kill him, in order for Jung to come to terms with his (Jung's)own theories. The son slays the father, so to speak...

This is how we can come to find our own "styles" --by grappling strongly with another artist, whom we admire...

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 04/13/12 02:59 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#954613 - 04/13/12 08:59 AM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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There are no rules..... as previously stated art is art. However there are things that work better than others. Some songs actually STRESS the bad rhymes and make a hook or feature out of them. That can work too. Some pop songs just contain one or two lines repeated ad finitum. So I do not worry about things like that. I just worry about writing a tune and putting down words that fit in the hope that folk like it. As for avoiding cliches and popular rhymes well a heck of a lot of hits have capitalised on adopting the very opposite view.

#954617 - 04/13/12 09:35 AM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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There may be no rules, but that's for the "artist" to know, and those struggling to find their voice, to find out.

The truth is, many writers start with a book, or a JPF, and need some basic guidelines. We all start out acting "as if" there ARE rules, so we can grow enough as writers/artists to forget about them. I get all that.

It's just that, when it comes to things like using the same word at the end of two lines in close proximity (identity rhymes), many haven't learned that some really sound GOOD to the ear, because some haven't learned how to listen to what their ear tells them. They go by what they perceive to be the common practice.

Maybe it's not good to tell a "novice" there are no rules, or even those good writers who lack confidence...they may keep Sheila Davis on the table...there is always a set of "hidden rules" surrounding any style of art. Even Picasso learned how to paint like the classic masters, before he went cubist.

Those who write having "thrown them away" have simply internalized them. and listen to their guts and proceed from there. But at that point, it is no different than having no rules. You simply have your "style" --and rules be damned...

Again, my point is that some writers would never write a lyric like "What Are You Doing the Rest of Your Life" because they would perceive it to be full of "awful" identity rhymes, one after the other, instead of legitimate double, triple, quadruple rhymes, like in the case of the Legrand song.

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 04/13/12 09:41 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#954618 - 04/13/12 09:53 AM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Ray E. Strode Offline
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Humm,
Well there is one guy here that says something like, Don't Try to analyze the thing, just write it! That's mostly where I am.

Suppposedly there are a lot of great paintings in the Lourve. No doubt there is a lot of "Junk" also. But some call it great Art.

And some say, Whatever Floats you boat. What was the question again?


Ray E. Strode
#954619 - 04/13/12 10:13 AM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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There wasn't a question...but now I've got one...

John Q Fledgling is a 13 year old who think he might like to become a "songwriter"

He goes to a symposium, and has a chance to ask his question, how do you write a song, what are the rules?

Bart Buckaruck tells him, "the rules are kinda slippery, songwriting is one profession where the rules seem to change, from writer to writer--STILL...having said that...stay in school, listen to lots of music, try to write a bit like those who you like at first, maybe buy a book or two, write about what you know...try to figure out what you like...be patient... "

Question goes to Big Jam Ramacleeze, who says "kid, there are no rules, write whatever you damn well feel..."

MY question is, which songwriter was more helpful?

... ... ...

and my point is, it's easy for established writers to say "there are no rules" ...but I think maybe we forget that...that may not be very helpful to some younger writers, and those lacking confidence...

I was trying to talk about ONE SPECIFIC songwriter tool that I know many overlook, because I know many perceive it to ALWAYS be a "bad thing" to do (rhyme the exact same word with itself) when in actuality, sometimes those identity rhymes are really feminine rhymes in disguise.

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 04/13/12 10:35 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#954622 - 04/13/12 10:22 AM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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I don’t know that I have a lot to add at this point because all the good discussion has already happened. As Lynn said, it depends a lot of genre and context, and as has been noted, musical theatre is where the perfect rhyme is expected rather than not. And, and, and, perfect rhymes are tough because so many of the obvious ones have been used so often.

I did my lyric apprenticeship studying musical theatre lyrics in my teens; of course always coming back to Sondheim. The unfortunately thing about Sondheim is that he’s so adept with language, he has always been able to find a way to make the perfect rhyme work. He’s a perfectionist and you will find endless perfect rhymes, all falling naturally into place. It’s hard for me to walk into any room and immediately start looking for the soft or imperfect rhyme, when it’s been demonstrated to me over and over again that if you spend enough time you can make it better.

I’ve had to train myself to deliberately choose softer rhyming schemes for some songs.

Where I feel frustration is when a writer *starts* his/her process by saying “ah, who cares, it doesn’t have to really rhyme” without doing any work or exploration to see how close they can come. It’s the effort and searching for the “perfect” rhyme that reveals the structure of the thoughts you are versifying – you keep moving the words around to find the right combination to hit the rhyme, and even if you drop back to the imperfect, you’ve discovered a lot about your lyric.

Sondheim could tumble out breathtaking rhymes, like this one about a lawyer thinking about seducing his wife (and analyzing the options with lawyerly reasoning):

Now
As the sweet imbecilities
Tumble so lavish-
Ly Onto her lap

Now
There are two possibilities
A, I could ravish
Her, B I could nap

Or, he could toss rhymes out, and have a fisherman and a samurai trade “haiku” (though in the song, he did not use the traditional 5-7-5 meter):

Rain glistening
On the silver birch,
Like my lady's tears.
Your turn.

Rain gathering,
Winding into streams,
Like the roads to Boston.
Your turn.


Obviously, writing a song for a music venue, with no dramatic context, is a different exercise, with a different audience and different expectations. But you can learn a hell of a lot about sheer song structure and rhyming technique and possibility in musical theatre.


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#954626 - 04/13/12 10:32 AM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Z. Mulls]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Hi Z,

No, those are some great thoughts, Z, but my initial post has nothing to do with perfect rhymes. Lynn misread my post, and you and others seem to have taken Lynn's FIRST post as their starting point. I guess my initial post, talking about IDENTITY rhymes was difficult to understand? Anyway, Lynn went on to get it...



Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#954631 - 04/13/12 10:55 AM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Z. Mulls Offline
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Well, the post read to me like 'when are identity rhymes acceptable in lieu of a perfect rhyme, masculine or feminine?" -- it's all part of the larger question of how strict you need to be about rhyming (which is part of the big question of "why do I need to follow any stinking rules when I'm so brilliant?" that we hear from new songwriters so often).

I have zero problem ever with identity rhymes when the rhymes are perfect and the stresses are correct and natural. A rhyme like KNOW YOU/SHOW YOU is as good to me as a perfect rhyme (that is, I'd use it in a context when a perfect rhyme was called for, and wouldn't feel like I was cheating).

Some of the examples, though, like MY home/FLY home, don't work for me. When I say "my home" I always emphasize HOME, not MY (unless I were telling somebody that it wasn't their home it was mine). So the stresses would feel strained.

I would avoid using "deceive/receive" for the same reason. You're really rhyming "ceive" with "ceive," you don't say "DE-ceieve".

I tend to be more strict with myself about rhyming than I need to be, because of my self-education in musicals, I always strive for the perfect rhyme. But I've never had any problem with identify rhymes, the way you've described them, and I'm surprised to hear there's a prejudice in some circles against them.

Sondheim never had a problem with it. One of his most emotionally beguiling lyrics from Passion (which I won't quote in entirety) starts off with them. The first line of each verse rhyme2, starting off as follows:

v1: I wish I could forget you
v2: I know that I've upset you
v3: I never should have let you

Nope, not an issue for me...


ZMULLS.COM
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#954636 - 04/13/12 11:40 AM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Great points. I think that you raise the issue that there are many varieties of rhymes. I generally don't like to have too many perfect rhymes in my songs but there are occasions that having a series of short perfect rhymes can sound very good - kind of perky.

I always notice the rhymes when I listen to a song - very interesting to discover a rhyme that I like that is no obvious.

For example, in the song Beautiful by One Direction(the new hot boy band), the song rhymes KNOW with BEAUTIFUL. It works nicely. Certainly not obvious.

Tom


Thomas Shea

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#954637 - 04/13/12 11:41 AM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Tom Shea]  
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... and Taylor Swift is excellent at rhymes - lots of variety and many that are not obvious.


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#954648 - 04/13/12 12:01 PM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Z. Mulls]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Z,

Thanks for posting again!

Not an issue with me, either.

My point was that many do have a problem with the "good" kind of identity rhymes, because they don't know, either through lack of ear or education, that there exists such a breed of good identity rhyme.

I think we are so educated that we perhaps forget that younger writers may look at "What Are You Doing The Rest of Your Life" and see a bunch of bad, identity rhymes, instead of good, legit, quadruple rhymes.

I would avoid "deceive/receive" as well, I used that as the kind of examples used in songwriters books, and I put no thought into it...nice catch, since those are masculine and are accenting the same, second syllable "SEEV" sound. We are in agreement...on just about all of these things...

I love Sondheim as well. Sweeny Todd, the Len Cariou, is still my favorite.

Thanks again,

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 04/13/12 12:06 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#954654 - 04/13/12 12:27 PM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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what is a rule book anyway?Rules are made to be broken,right?i prefer to write with whatever rhyme scheme suits me at the time, wether it's even a real word or a made up word like that has been done before by international artists.I will never buy or read a songwriters rule book,it may show in my writing to some but i live by enough rules in this day and age.However,i do appreciate any critique given to me wether i like it or not.And i'm sure some of those critiques come from rule books they've read.But as you listen to any genre these days,there are hit songs that are far from any rule book,lots of cliches,near rhymes,bad rhymes,no rhymes,identiy rhymes or just everything you're NOT suppose to do.Just write and please yourself!

#954659 - 04/13/12 01:00 PM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Michael LeBlanc]  
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All this talk of rhymes has my heart going pitter patter!! Don't stop!! crazy

Oh I could spend a thousand days
And not run out of gas
Conversing on the things of rhyme
Cause rhymes are one big BLAST!!!


My Music at Soundclick
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~call it a blessing or call it a curse, but I see all of life in verse~

Always open to collaborations smile

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#954660 - 04/13/12 01:07 PM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Lynn Orloff]  
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Yes Tom, and I think the classic Taylor Swift rhyme that is so clever is.....

she wears high heels
I wear sneakers
She's cheer captain and
I'm in the bleachers
cool

Of course it's not genius in an Einstein sense, but it's genius that it's right in front of all of us but she reached for it and used it and did so masterfully (and a winning melody didn't hurt). The words describe a style of dress and a physical location, but at the same time describe the two different worlds the girls live in. Simple brilliance!!


My Music at Soundclick
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~call it a blessing or call it a curse, but I see all of life in verse~

Always open to collaborations smile

God Bless Our Military!!!
#954665 - 04/13/12 01:44 PM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Lynn Orloff]  
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Awesome to see you again, Michael!

I think every song should be taken seriously. Whatever it is meant to be needs to be seriously considered and ensured by the writer. This means an offhand, frivolous piece should have an offhand, frivolous nature, and the writer should seriously ensure that everything about it is offhand and frivolous.

So if the rhyme you decide is right for the song happens to be an identity rhyme, and you've seriously considered it, then you are right to use it, and anyone who deems it wrong is a bonehead.

Listen, some writing sucks, and some doesn't. I know you have the intelligence to distinguish between the two. Every songwriting rule you decide to embrace has the ability to hinder your progress, block your flow, nail you to the floor, turn you into a quivering ball of fear and succeed in making you sound boring.

I say write for the song, not the Imagination Police. If it turns out it is just right, but has some element that prevents it from a pitch, either change that bit or don't pitch it...but intercourse those rules while engaged in the act of creation, or you'll find yourself dithering over every single decision.


#954668 - 04/13/12 01:52 PM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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"Every songwriting rule you decide to embrace has the ability to hinder your progress, block your flow, nail you to the floor, turn you into a quivering ball of fear and succeed in making you sound boring."

Every songwriting rule you decide to embrace has the ability to stop you from making the easy choice, train muscles you didn't realize you had, force you to consider a world of alternative paths, and open your imagination to possibilities from which you were cutting yourself off.

To take a slightly contrary view. ;-)


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#954715 - 04/13/12 04:32 PM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman
Awesome to see you again, Michael!

I think every song should be taken seriously. Whatever it is meant to be needs to be seriously considered and ensured by the writer. This means an offhand, frivolous piece should have an offhand, frivolous nature, and the writer should seriously ensure that everything about it is offhand and frivolous.

So if the rhyme you decide is right for the song happens to be an identity rhyme, and you've seriously considered it, then you are right to use it, and anyone who deems it wrong is a bonehead.

Listen, some writing sucks, and some doesn't. I know you have the intelligence to distinguish between the two. Every songwriting rule you decide to embrace has the ability to hinder your progress, block your flow, nail you to the floor, turn you into a quivering ball of fear and succeed in making you sound boring.

I say write for the song, not the Imagination Police. If it turns out it is just right, but has some element that prevents it from a pitch, either change that bit or don't pitch it...but intercourse those rules while engaged in the act of creation, or you'll find yourself dithering over every single decision.



I totally agree with everything you say.

Yet...

My point is still...

You and I and Z Mulls and Lynn and Big Jim and Donna and most of those who have posted here have earned the right to write anyway we please. We are confident enough in what we are doing to not need any "rules"--written or unwritten, or "shop talk" about this type of rhyme or that type...GRANTED...

Is it so for younger inexperienced writers?
Is "too much freedom" a good thing, when one is starting out, or lacking confidence?
Is there no value to say, teaching songwriting "as if" there were rules, as sifted from common usage, so one can give fledgeling students more than the chaotic feeling that accompanies, "write whatever you feel..." ... ?


I was talking towards...what seems to be an error or gap in literature about songwriting, and identity rhymes in particular, and the literature seems to say that feminine rhymes are NEVER of the type where a one syllable word is the last, unaccented syllable, the examples given are always two or more syllables. This oversight can lead some (younger, inexperienced writers) to view legitimate double, triple, and quadruple rhymes, as if they were of the unwanted, identity rhyme variety.

The only boy who could ever reach me
The only boy who could ever teach me

What are you doing the rest of your life
North and south and east and west of your life

Those are double rhymes and quadruple rhymes, respectively. My point is, it is an easy mistake to make, if you are a younger or inexperienced writer, to look at that, and say to yourself "bad identity rhymes" because there is no literature that talks about, how the ear enjoys an identity rhyme at the end of two lines, if it is set up with one or more preceding (perfect or near) rhyming, stressed syllables.

LOL...You have to admit, I'm consistent...

Good to hear from you. I've always admired your work, you know that... smile

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 04/13/12 04:53 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#954720 - 04/13/12 04:57 PM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Thanks Michael, and likewise!

I actually agree with Z, too. It's very important to stretch your abilities, and I find even just simple lyric writing demands that...you have to fit them to a rhythm, make them rhyme, keep them logical and perhaps chronological...and the more rules you adopt, the more challenging it gets. It's just that I'm a strong believer in first creating with absolute reckless joyful abandon, no restrictions whatsoever---and then RE-writing to suit your needs. That's where the "kill your darlings" rule applies.

Then again, if you're writing against a deadline, you'll need to get it right immediately.

So many ways to do it...my main point is that you have to measure the strength of each rule against the strength of the song...and sometimes a good song demands a broken rule or two.

#954724 - 04/13/12 05:19 PM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman
Thanks Michael, and likewise!

I actually agree with Z, too. It's very important to stretch your abilities, and I find even just simple lyric writing demands that...you have to fit them to a rhythm, make them rhyme, keep them logical and perhaps chronological...and the more rules you adopt, the more challenging it gets. It's just that I'm a strong believer in first creating with absolute reckless joyful abandon, no restrictions whatsoever---and then RE-writing to suit your needs. That's where the "kill your darlings" rule applies.

Then again, if you're writing against a deadline, you'll need to get it right immediately.

So many ways to do it...my main point is that you have to measure the strength of each rule against the strength of the song...and sometimes a good song demands a broken rule or two.


LOL, I love/hate the "kill your darlings" rule. Yes, save it for the rewrites, the self-deprecation, the humbling and wincing that accompanies it, like a sobering morning after.

"Kill your darlings" is like...know thyself well enough to know when you are "championing" something that probably sucks...I have killed many a darling... Instant strong editor.

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 04/13/12 05:21 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#954725 - 04/13/12 05:22 PM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman
Thanks Michael, and likewise!

I actually agree with Z, too. It's very important to stretch your abilities, and I find even just simple lyric writing demands that...you have to fit them to a rhythm, make them rhyme, keep them logical and perhaps chronological...and the more rules you adopt, the more challenging it gets. It's just that I'm a strong believer in first creating with absolute reckless joyful abandon, no restrictions whatsoever---and then RE-writing to suit your needs. That's where the "kill your darlings" rule applies.

Then again, if you're writing against a deadline, you'll need to get it right immediately.

So many ways to do it...my main point is that you have to measure the strength of each rule against the strength of the song...and sometimes a good song demands a broken rule or two.


What you are describing is making the process "organic" by starting tabula rasa, and letting the content meet the form. Bringing to the table the particular things, for a given project, that need to be there...I couldn't agree more!

Still, it feels like we are talking "peer to peer" and are overlooking the process that a younger or less experienced writer may have, or need, which is also something to consider, when talking "process" amongst ourselves...

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 04/13/12 05:27 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#954733 - 04/13/12 06:20 PM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Michael Zaneski  Offline
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We would all probably agree that "music theory" is a valuable tool for a young composer. NOT because it teaches "rules" per se, but because it gets a student to look and listen to some composers that were quite influential, and changed the shape of music. Composers tended to solve musical problems in similar ways, in similar time periods, with the innovators among them nudging the canon forward here and there. A Stravinski, a Schoenberg, a (Steve) Reich are important, in this context, because a student can see JUST HOW RADICAL an innovator can be. Steve Reich was fed up, and didn't want to write what was being taught him--12 tone serialism, so I think it was his teacher Pierre Boulez who told him, "look, if you want to write tonal music, write tonal music!"

But, without that process of going to school learning to write music that frustrated him--I have to wonder...would Steve Reich have ever come to realize that it was okay to write how he wanted? If he had gone into Boulez' class, and on the first day, Boulez said, "go home, write whatever you want!" --do you think Steve Reich would be half the composer he is today?

Of course not. And then he needed a father figure and strong musical figure, Boulez, to legitimize how he (Reich) felt! How's THAT for lack of confidence! If Boulez says, "write 12 tone music, blah blah blah..." who knows...

So if a Steve Reich, probably the most important and influential living composer, had such a need for this theory "process", just to overcome his own confidence or self-esteem problems...what might us lesser creatures be going through, in the similar realm of putting words together?

I think that some songwriting "theory" is equally valuable for those younger and inexperienced lyricists, just like music theory is for composers. But there is nothing there, just a bunch of disparate books by a Webb or a Davis, and the "theory" that a young lyricist cobbles together by hanging out here. Young lyricists NEED theory, just like young composers need it--IF ONLY to get to a place, inside, where they feel it is (now) holding them back, and they can THEN abandon it. smile

And when Z Mulls writes the official "canon", I hope he includes the proper "thought" on "identity rhymes" and why some are better than others wink

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 04/13/12 07:39 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#954735 - 04/13/12 06:26 PM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Michael LeBlanc Offline
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Michael LeBlanc  Offline
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Well thinking back,i guess i did read some sort of rule book or ideas of writing lyrics.Since i started buying albums as a teenager,i was always praying for a lyric sheet inside which most of them had.From YES,NEIL YOUNG,PINK FLOYD,ALICE COOPER,just so many ways that these people/groups write alone gives a young writer ideas and inspiration.

#954796 - 04/14/12 06:24 AM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Michael LeBlanc]  
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BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
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Michael I agree 100% with what you say. Music is a learning curve and we all crave for as much learning as we can. Now some people can by their own intuition write music and lyrics with little or no formal tuition. Others require these skills to be taught. Whatever way it is importasnt to experiment and try to develop ones own style of writing playing and performing. That is what makes music so diverse. There is no right and no wrong just WHAT WORKS best for each individual. I do however feel that TOO many people go down the route of writing to a formula usually as taught by a book. In other words they copy what has gone before and as a result we get the same old clones churning out the same old so music stagnates and evolves very slowly. Whilst it is good to read these books and learn the rules...... that does not mean we all have to follow them to the letter.

#954831 - 04/14/12 11:10 AM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Dottie Offline
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Hi Mike,

This is very interesting because I know an excellent writer that uses identity rhymes and I wasn’t sure why it was ok to use them when he did. Another writer whom I admire told me that it’s ok to break a rule as long as you know you’re doing it and there’s a good reason for it. Let me end by saying I know there aren’t really any rules, I think of them more like a proven strategy.

I have a question but since it will be changing the subject I'll start a new thread.

Dottie


#955185 - 04/16/12 11:27 AM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Dottie]  
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Dave Rice (D) Offline
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Dave Rice (D)  Offline
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Mornin' Michael Z:

Interesting "soft rant" topic. Your points are well-given and well-taken. I understand what Shayne is telling us but I ignore just about everything when I write a song. Whatever that little devil on my shoulder dictates... I put it down. (Don't always use it... but there it is, for all the world to see... well, at least for me to see.)

The big Scotsman said it pretty well for my perspective. If we worry too much about structure... the song may never be ready to perform. In truth, I may rewrite a song six or seven times before it is ready to record. Nothing is "safe" in my little compositions until it all blends in... and moves me.

So glad to have you back among us. Maybe now, we'll all spend more time worrying about the music and less time on politics and religion.

Regards,

Dave

#955190 - 04/16/12 11:43 AM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Dave Rice (D)]  
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glynda Offline
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Hi Mike,

Great to have you back, and you were missed....this thread is great....and we all know that rhyming is the hardest part for me, wish there was a list of the perfect rhymes.....anyway, good to see you among us again...love it....Yea!!!!!!

glyn

#955209 - 04/16/12 12:27 PM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Lynn Orloff]  
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Tom Shea Offline
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Tom Shea  Offline
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Lynn - I love these lines - absolute example of the highest writing ability.

Originally Posted by Lynn Orloff
Yes Tom, and I think the classic Taylor Swift rhyme that is so clever is.....

she wears high heels
I wear sneakers
She's cheer captain and
I'm in the bleachers
cool

Of course it's not genius in an Einstein sense, but it's genius that it's right in front of all of us but she reached for it and used it and did so masterfully (and a winning melody didn't hurt). The words describe a style of dress and a physical location, but at the same time describe the two different worlds the girls live in. Simple brilliance!!


Thomas Shea

Thomas Shea - Songwriting
http://www.soundclick.com/thomasshea

Justice - Songs
http://www.soundclick.com/justice-nebraska

#955230 - 04/16/12 01:52 PM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Tom Shea]  
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Dave Rice (D) Offline
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Dave Rice (D)  Offline
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Darn, Michael:

You're gonna think that ignorant fool from Glen Rose didn't read the entire thread... and you would be correct. I just noticed the "question" about advice to the young prodigy... which slant on how to write is the best advice for him? Certainly, the part that advises him to study just about every aspect of music and songwriting... and an ever changing music industry. I would never advise anyone to write the way I do... but it's the way I do things. It's a little like "brainstorming"... which was popular in thinktanks a few years ago. Put it down, no matter how ridiculous it seems. Then review the list and discuss each aspect... throw out what does not work and zero in on what does.

Great discussion. Much food for thought.

#955259 - 04/16/12 06:52 PM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Dottie]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Michael Zaneski  Offline
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Originally Posted by Dottie
Hi Mike,

This is very interesting because I know an excellent writer that uses identity rhymes and I wasn’t sure why it was ok to use them when he did. Another writer whom I admire told me that it’s ok to break a rule as long as you know you’re doing it and there’s a good reason for it. Let me end by saying I know there aren’t really any rules, I think of them more like a proven strategy.

I have a question but since it will be changing the subject I'll start a new thread.

Dottie



Hi Dottie (and Tom and Dave and Big Jim and Glynda)...

There are some identity rhymes that are better than others, and an easy way to suss out the good from the bad, is to think of the good ones as feminine rhymes (last syllable unaccented) in disguise. The following examples, I will capitalize where the STRESS goes. Notice the end words are identities:

The moment I WAKE up
Before I put on my MAKE up

--Burt Bacharach, Hal David, "I Say a Little Prayer"

I'm looking THROUGH you
Where did you go
I thought I KNEW you
What did I know

--Lennon and McCartney, "I'm Looking Through You"

Another thing to consider is, that since carrier and barrier are feminine rhymes, then it would be totally idiotic to rule out carry her and bury her, simply because "her" appeared to be an identity rhyme.

*************************************************************

So there is no official canon, but there are rules that we cull from the canon of songs that have entered the world of popular music, and this is what the good identity rhymes have in common:

they are feminine rhymes in disguise. The problem is NOT in the definition of feminine rhyme: a rhyme that matches two or more syllables, usually at the end of respective lines, in which the final syllable or syllables are unstressed

but the fact that in all the examples, they use single words!!!

Wikipedia, for example:

A woman’s face with nature’s own hand painted,

Hast thou, the master mistress of my passion;
A woman’s gentle heart, but not acquainted
With shifting change, as is false women’s fashion...
But since she prick’d thee out for women’s pleasure,
Mine be thy love and thy love’s use their treasure.


*******************************************************

So there you go...

Think of it as a "rule" ...or, if that bothers us... just as the fact that some things sound better to most ears.





Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 04/19/12 12:45 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#955288 - 04/16/12 08:20 PM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Dave Rice (D)]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Michael Zaneski  Offline
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Originally Posted by Dave Rice
Darn, Michael:

You're gonna think that ignorant fool from Glen Rose didn't read the entire thread... and you would be correct. I just noticed the "question" about advice to the young prodigy... which slant on how to write is the best advice for him? Certainly, the part that advises him to study just about every aspect of music and songwriting... and an ever changing music industry. I would never advise anyone to write the way I do... but it's the way I do things. It's a little like "brainstorming"... which was popular in thinktanks a few years ago. Put it down, no matter how ridiculous it seems. Then review the list and discuss each aspect... throw out what does not work and zero in on what does.

Great discussion. Much food for thought.


Well, no...unless the way you wrote was a kind of style that regarded the entire history of popular music to comprise the canon from which you sussed good lines from bad. Then maybe, you would be teaching a well rounded course!

But even doing that, I would admit that there is still a big grey area where subjectivity and personal opinion was indeed the tie breaker.

Let's say...and this is rather arbitrary...just throwing out percentages...it's about 75% "this solution is better than that one", and about 25% this is absolutely THEE correct way to do it, and THAT's undeniably wrong...with those wrongly identified identity rhymes (that are actually feminine rhymes) THAT would be a case of RIGHT/WRONG, in that carry her/bury her is just as legit a feminine rhyme as carrier/barrier. (see above post).


Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 04/16/12 08:35 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#955524 - 04/18/12 09:29 AM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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MFB III Offline
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MFB III  Offline
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ohio
Hey Mike, Your caring for your mother is a truly wonderful compassionate act, so many just put them away somewhere and forget all the years of love. Your lesson on Identity rhymes, and the entities one finds in such work was very enlightening. I rhyme most of my work like Dr. Seuss on crack, and any instruction on rhyming is most helpful.Obviously you have been missed here, which is evident from the comments left you on this piece since April 12th. Write on and welcome back.~~~MFB III

#955554 - 04/18/12 11:58 AM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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"Tampa Stan" Good (D) Offline
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HiDee Prodigal Bro Michael...Good to Have Ya Back, Amigo!

Methinks it's Good to have Young Writers a-lookin' at BOTH Burt Bach' AND Big Jim Ramacleeze...since BOTH have a lot to offer...heh!

I, personally LOVE the advice Shayne offers Us Writers, fresh from the frontline NashCity Trenches. BUT...My Particular Ears absolutely THRILL to the Perfect Rhymes in Toby Keith's "Red Solo Cup" that's a BIG current country HIT...(with "Receptical/Festivals/Testicals" in the Very First Verse...heh-heh...)

So much for Half-Rhyming in THAT little Hit Number... (&..so much for "Novelty Songs Don't Sell" too...) ;-)>

IF you can get away with it, AND it makes the song BETTER, and it's NOT so Friggin' OBVIOUS What-You're-Doing...Do WHATEVER Works..& Have Fun with it. ("Rules are made for Sissies"...I think I heard Big Jim Ramacleese say that a few times....Good Advice, Kids...) ;-)>

Waal, back to Obscurity...but...I've enjoyed addin' to The Thread, Brother Michael...

Best Wishes & a Big Guy-Hug,
Stan

#955680 - 04/19/12 12:26 AM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: MFB III]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Michael Zaneski  Offline
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California
Hi MFB III,

Dr. Seuss on crack?

Didn't you hear? Johnny Depp just signed onto that project!

It's a scandalously little known thing, Theo Geisel had a subst...oh who am I kidding. grin

Anyway, I am humbled by your kind words.

It's good to see new talent here; I've enjoyed the things I've read by you, kind sir. smile

See ya...

Mike


Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 04/19/12 12:27 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#955681 - 04/19/12 12:36 AM Re: When an "Identity Rhyme" is acceptable [Re: "Tampa Stan" Good (D)]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,108
Michael Zaneski Offline
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Michael Zaneski  Offline
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California
Hi Tampa,

LOLOL, you read that far! Got to the Buckaruck and (Big Jam...Jam, NOT Jim...I mean...whattya tryin' to do Tampa, get me in trouble?!? grin ) Ramacleeze...that's most excellent!

Well...rules may be made for sissies, but there is a school of thought that thinks that some people need them, even if they are "imagined" rules with no true existence.

But we all DO have our favorite songs, and our own imaginary wall, upon which all the songs we've ever been "marked" by, are etched onto that wall...and so we are indeed, greatly influenced by the contents of that wall...which we sometimes go bashing into, head first...looking for a way to (to paraphrase John Schick) just finish writing the damn thing...

Big dude-like hug, backatcha...

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 04/19/12 01:23 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)

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