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#951835 - 03/24/12 08:29 AM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: Jean Bullock]  
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Everett Adams Online content
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,NL Canada
I give up.


The more you taste the bitterness of defeat, the sweeter final victory will be

May the flowers of love forever bloom in your garden of life

http://www.soundclick.com/newsflashsounds

http://www.soundclick.com/newsflashgospel

www.cdbaby.com/all/eca333

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#951839 - 03/24/12 09:17 AM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: Jean Bullock]  
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John Lawrence Schick Offline
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John Lawrence Schick  Offline
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PA
Originally Posted by Jean Bullock
John ... you forgot the second part of my answer

I believe that God is all loving and forgiving both before and after our deaths. Who's to say that we don't get a second chance to join God in heaven?


That's the part I thanked you for Jean. LOL

John smile

#951889 - 03/24/12 01:53 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
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Douglas Murphy Offline
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I sometimes have my doubts and find myself questioning the existance or not of what I was taught as a child.

I have read through the new testement and believe the underlying statement is true. We need to be good to each other.

This quote, from Bill and Teds Excellant Adventure (A.L) sums it up perfectly for me. Does not answer your question John but still says it all IMO.

seven minutes ago... we, your forefathers, were brought forth upon a most excellent adventure conceived by our new friends, Bill... and Ted. These two great gentlemen are dedicated to a proposition which was true in my time, just as it's true today. Be excellent to each other. And... PARTY ON, DUDES!

douglas


"Is this a practice? They are all practices." John Denver

www.soundclick.com/dougmurphy

Skype Contact: douglas.murphy8
#952084 - 03/25/12 05:21 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: Jean Bullock]  
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BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
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Whilst God is "all loving and forgiving".......can we in all honesty forgive him for ALLOWING the pain and suffering we all endure throught this short life. I said God is preposterous and I stick by it........no all loving being can possibly sit back and let it happen.........we pray for all sorts of things....well some pray...others like myself with a more realistic attitude would not waste my breath on something that simply aint never gonna happen.
I would have thought that if there was a God he would make a far better job of making his presence known and felt....so belief and dlind faith does not enter the equation.
Some folk quote passages of the bible or other manmade dogma......as God's word.......now that is preposteropus.....and a pretty gullible.......there is not a shred of proof to support any of it........
I am afraid I laugh at religion the same way folk laugh at kids who belief in Santa or the tooth fairy.
Sorry if I offend folks....BUT.....there is nothing personal....I just get angry about how some folk can be so easily taken in.

#952085 - 03/25/12 05:29 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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December X Offline
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What if God is not a being who sits and thinks but a part of everything that is, energy.

People sit back and let things happen, energy and spirit just is.

I agree, the idea that a man on top of the clouds is running the show, is preposterous, but is that what God is?

#952086 - 03/25/12 05:37 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: December X]  
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BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
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That is just like saying there is no God. Well if God is such a thing as energy then there is no God....at least in the Christian or any other religion sense...so why all the hullaballo....these folk are wasting time and effort they could be spending the time writing songs and helping fellow himans rather than chasing around after something that does not exist.

#952087 - 03/25/12 05:41 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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December X Offline
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December X  Offline
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LoL, God Bless ya Jim

#952090 - 03/25/12 05:51 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: Everett Adams]  
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KimberlyinNC Offline
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KimberlyinNC  Offline
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Originally Posted by Everett Adams
I give up.



Do not give up... smile

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" John 8:32


Keep sharing the truth Everett. If only one heart takes it and learns of God's love and how he sent his Son to die for our sins, you are doing as He has commanded us to do.


I am a believer, and I am not ashamed to admit it, and no I don't have all the answers, but I have faith, and He says that is all it takes. Faith.



God Bless~

I am not planning to join in the conversation for now, but I happened to run across this and your statement and wanted to send alittle love your way, Everett


Kimberly









*Always open to collaborations on my lyrics.. with singers and musicians, but PLEASE contact me before putting work into one--in case someone else has it..thanks!!**
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#952138 - 03/26/12 02:14 AM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
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R&M Offline
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You obviously have a heavy responsibility being a dad. I can't say outside of being a fill in baby sitter with nephew and nieces visits. But you are the big parent and authority. Kids seem to need to hear things in small increments from relatives and friends to the family where nothing is forced.

Do not trust social services and look at your own network with who is around you. I do not say that lightly since I considered psychology as a main field.
With what is on T.V nowadays I try to keep the channel on retro television when kids come to watch. They are interested just the same.

My mother is in post acute care now with terminal cancer.
Everything from childhood sure rushes back.

#952172 - 03/26/12 10:03 AM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: R&M]  
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Everett Adams Online content
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Everett Adams  Online Content
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Thank you Kim,I'll never give up on God,but I just as well give up casting my pearls before swine. Some people just love poking fun and trying to destroy other peoples faith. They will be held accountable for every word they speak someday. I don't mind being insulted for my beliefs in God and Jesus, in fact I should rejoice.The bible says Christians will be persecuted and imprisoned and even killed for their faith, (in the last day which we are in now).There are more Christians being killed for their faith now than were killed through out history.

Christians do a lot of good work in the world, they just don't boast about it. Often when disaster strikes somewhere in the world, Christian organizations are there helping before the Red Cross shows up. I can forgive Big Jim and others for cutting remarks because they know not what they do,they are blinded to the truth, they demand proof before they believe, if you have proof you don't need faith, but without faith and belief as that of a little child, you can not please God. I am not ashamed to confess Jesus before man, therefore Jesus will not be ashamed to confess me before His Father.


The more you taste the bitterness of defeat, the sweeter final victory will be

May the flowers of love forever bloom in your garden of life

http://www.soundclick.com/newsflashsounds

http://www.soundclick.com/newsflashgospel

www.cdbaby.com/all/eca333

www.showcaseyourmusic.com/newsflashsounds
#952176 - 03/26/12 11:25 AM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: Everett Adams]  
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Birmingham, UK
Originally Posted by December Rock Star
Monkees dont worry about anything, they just swing off their tree and eat a banana, maybe thats how we should live.
Well I'm gonna give it a go grin

Originally Posted by Douglas Murphy
Be excellent to each other
It’s a good code to live by

#952189 - 03/26/12 01:07 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: Meg Engell]  
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Sam Wilson Offline
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Sam Wilson  Offline
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Religion comes from the outside in.
Spirituality comes from the inside out.


Co-Write Friendly.....Look at my blog on My Space.

http://www.cherokee46x@yahoo.com
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Ronnie Van Zant fan
#952211 - 03/26/12 05:50 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: December X]  
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adf Offline
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Hamilton, Ontario
DRS,

Like I said in a previous post, the Energy scenario is one I find plausible, and so did Einstein. He was quite a smart dude, so I'm following his thinking until I know better.

Andy


If at first you don't succeed, try the 'ON' switch!
#952423 - 03/28/12 02:40 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Little_stevie_b Offline
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Hickory, North Carolina USA
Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
Whilst God is "all loving and forgiving".......can we in all honesty forgive him for ALLOWING the pain and suffering we all endure throught this short life. I said God is preposterous and I stick by it........no all loving being can possibly sit back and let it happen.........we pray for all sorts of things....well some pray...others like myself with a more realistic attitude would not waste my breath on something that simply aint never gonna happen.
I would have thought that if there was a God he would make a far better job of making his presence known and felt....so belief and dlind faith does not enter the equation.
Some folk quote passages of the bible or other manmade dogma......as God's word.......now that is preposteropus.....and a pretty gullible.......there is not a shred of proof to support any of it........
I am afraid I laugh at religion the same way folk laugh at kids who belief in Santa or the tooth fairy.
Sorry if I offend folks....BUT.....there is nothing personal....I just get angry about how some folk can be so easily taken in.


Well here we go again Jim. Since you rarely if ever answer my pointed questions I'll repost my last response to you on this matter. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you were away and didn't read it, although with the fervor you follow this topic I find that hard to believe....Here we go...

Here we go again Jim,

By now of course, we are all quite aware that you are an atheist. My question is why you hold an evangelistic zeal to turn others to your way of thinking? You say that your sense of logic dictates that the religious writing and teachings do not make sense and the very existence of God is preposterous. Preposterous means by definition that something is totally against nature, reason or common sense. It is wholy against nature, reason and common sense that everything came out of nothing without a catalyst born of intelligence. It doesn't happen anywhere at any time in your god of science. Everything has a cause and effect in an observable system of 4 diminsions as our Universe is thought to be. Everything! If not, give me one example of cause without effect in the known Universe. Who or what caused the "Big Bang" in the first place which set in motion a Universe where there is always a cause for every effect?

Yet once again I implore you to look at the issue without religion or man and simply from a common sense approach, not about any one religion being true but instead, merely the question of a Creator's existance.
Stating that the existance of a Creator is preposterous indicates logically that you assume to possess infinite knowledge of all there is. Therefor, ipso facto, you are your own god. That must be a tremendous responsibilty for you.

In your world there is, in reality, no good or evil. Everything just IS. Everything you do is neither good or evil according to your own personal convenience at the moment. Why? Because without a law giver there is no law. It's just that Big Jim has decread that one act is good and another evil. Argue that point with me. Concepts of good and evil are all in your own imagination and nothing more.

Seems you must have been in the Garden of Eden and you partook of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil and have become like God, or became A god , knowing good and evil. Man, what a paradox!!!

Those are the only points I'll ask you at this time. More to come I'm sure. I await your next sylable with great anticipation.

But again, why do you feel such an evangelistic zeal to convert others to your way of thinking about the matter at hand here? Because atheism is in fact your religion? Religion by definition is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. Sounds a lot like your belief system Jim, with the exception of ritual observances.

Stevie

#952425 - 03/28/12 02:56 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
Joined: Apr 2006
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Ian Ferrin Offline
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Ian Ferrin  Offline
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Close to WalMart
Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
Whilst God is "all loving and forgiving".......can we in all honesty forgive him for ALLOWING the pain and suffering we all endure throught this short life.

That's a question that's been asked and answered a zillion times thru the ages. You apparently don't know or like the answers, but in itself it's not much of an argument. If you google that question, you'll get a plethora of answers. (and agreements w/ you from the atheistic side too). My point is that it's an OLD discussion.

I would note that your question kind of assumes that God should automatically get the blame for pain and suffering. That's not automatic IMO.

Peace,

Ian


Soundclick http://www.soundclick.com/ianferrin
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'Hammers don't build houses. People build houses' - Me

What happened before the big bang? What's the universe expanding into? Did you know the speed of gravity is the speed of light?
#952426 - 03/28/12 03:03 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: Ian Ferrin]  
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adf Offline
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Hamilton, Ontario
I'm wondering whether John Lawrence Schick is actually God. confused

Last edited by adf; 03/28/12 03:03 PM.

If at first you don't succeed, try the 'ON' switch!
#952434 - 03/28/12 04:41 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: adf]  
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BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
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Stevie I will reply to your question....it is preposterous to claim that we were created by any God or supreme force without having any scientific evidence or proof to back it up other than man made conjecture and hand me down stories...... there is absolutely no proof that there is or ever was a God...in fact we are uncovering things almost daily that throw spanner after spanner in the works of creationist theories and the words of the bible. nobody should have faith or believe in the unprovable. I would have thought that any God worth his salt would make his presence unmistakable...sadly it has not happened. I wonder why.
Re why do we have laws...well simply they are created by man for man...some are good some not so good depending on perspective....but one thing for sure we need basic laws to protect ourselves from each other and god has nothing to do with making them. Contrary to what you might think we CAN have civilisation and do good to each other without a God....and IMHO it would probably be a better place without misguided religious zealots poking their noses in everything insisting that we live by THEIR archaic principles and laws. Actually I say this cause religious people are too blind to see that they have been conned and indoctrinated. Most of the wars, hatred cruelty and suffering is a product of religion anyway. I preach cause I feel religion has had its day now we must try an alternative....more peaceful and fairer approach to life.

Ian whilst the question has bee asked a zillion times no answer worth considering has ever come forth simply cause an all powerful being with infinite wisdom and forgiveness could NOT have made such a pigs ear of things and deserted that which he created in the first place........I pose the question where is the compassion or forgiveness in allowing generation after generation after generation to suffer just because their parents sinned. That simply does not compute....and does not come from anyone I would consider a worthwhile God.

To all.....well I could be wrong.... but if I am then on the great judgement day when it is my turn for an audience with the almighty HE will have more things to answer for than me....He better have eternity and a good few excuses ready to state HIS case.

#952436 - 03/28/12 05:08 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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DonnaMarilyn Offline
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Hmmmm. Strange. A couple of posts seem to have gone missing: one of Everett’s and one of mine.

Everett, you had stated earlier that you thought Einstein was a Christian.

I replied that he in fact was ethnically a Jew, though well versed in Christianity.

Einstein’s own philosophy was allied with that of the highly controversial 17th-century Dutch Jewish philosopher, Baruch Spinoza, who argued strongly - and with considerable scientific insight - against the authenticity of the Hebrew Bible (the Christian Old Testament) and the nature of Divinity.

Einstein did not believe in a personal God.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_einstein.html






Honour the Earth. Without it, we'd be nowhere.

Life is too important to take seriously.

http://www.reverbnation.com/donnamarilynrichblend




#952438 - 03/28/12 05:10 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Little_stevie_b Offline
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Jim,

Your belief's as an atheist are just man made conjecture as you condemn the believers for. Your's.
And you didn't answer my question. Show me one instance of an effect without a cause in all of known science. Suspending my personal faith for a moment, I'll use "if" in my next offering to you. If it turns out that there is a Creator, I really don't think you'll have the courage to ask any questions at all, least of all in the tone you assume.

Still waiting for your example of an effect without a cause. Oh, and contrary to your statement of things being discovered every day that throw a spanner into the existance of God and the Biblical narrative, all based on "conjecture" of people who are already predisposed to disbelieve in a Creator, I can come up with a whole lot more discoveries that show evidence that The Bible is relevant in it's history and geography, etc.

You like to state that evolution is a proven fact. How about the fossil gap that even Darwin said would render his "theory" inconclusive or void? How about the hoaxes that have been exposed concerning evolution and evolutionists. Case in point...
Nebraska Man. Museums had exhibits of whole families of Nebraska Man down to what "he" looked like. Problem was it was later discovered that the only evidence for Nebraska Man's existance was a single tooth. Turns out that the tooth belonged to an extinct pecarry, which is a pig like mammal with hooves.

Man this is fun. Isn't this fun?

Stevie



#952443 - 03/28/12 07:43 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: adf]  
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John Lawrence Schick Offline
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Originally Posted by adf
I'm wondering whether John Lawrence Schick is actually God. confused


I hope He doesn't punish you for that remark Andy. laugh

Besides. I wouldn't want to face Jim on Judgement Day. grin

John smile

#952444 - 03/28/12 08:01 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
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I'm in agreement with Einstein on all this. Thanks for that link, Donna.

#952457 - 03/28/12 10:10 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Stevie I will admit that some people have produced hoaxes to gain fame or to try to prove a theory..........but be honest Christianity is famous for it and has it off to a fine art.....the Shroud of Turin....various assorted miracles..the weeping virgin and stigmata cases are just a few examples from the top of my head....so what.
Evolution has been legitimately proved beyond all doubt.... it sticks in the craw for Christian religions to accept it as fact now....it made a mess of some religious beliefs at the time it was first broached and Darwin was treated cruelly for trying to prove his theory.
I am an Atheist therefore do not believe in anything I do not have proper proof of......that is not a belief in itself it is just applied LOGIC plain and simple. I refuse to accept pure belief without it being backed up by facts. I have studied the Bible and Christianity....I agree that some of the things written about in the Bible actually happened.......but that is hardly surprising as much of the Bible is historical information and accounts ..proves nothing about God though....that said much of these writings must be tainted by human exaggerations and the Chinese whispers effect therefore nobody can weed out the truth from the fiction given the circumstances in which it was compiled or handed down verbally and then translated. Any accounts about Jesus were seemingly written almost a century after his death......so believe them if you want...I remain skeptical.

As far as effect without cause I am afraid you have lost me...have not got a clue what you are talking about......or what point it proves. There is evidence of the big bang and there is evidence as to how life evolved from it.....but there is no evidence that effect without cause has anything to do with God......consider it impossible for God to create anything without himself first being created...and who created god and who created the thing that created Gods creator?
One thing for sure I am more inclined to believe the premise that man created God rather than God creating man. Historically man has come up with all kinds of explanations for things he cannot explain...some are pretty weird some downright stupid. Then thanks to science we discover the truth....somehow I suspect that whilst we show that God is an improbability we will never get prove one way or another...you cannot prove that something does not exist you can only prove a positive..the earth was flat till we found out it was round......people were called blasphemers and even put to death for daring to suggest that the Earth revolved around the sun.
One of the main reasons I am so anti religious and could never be a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim is that I respect women too much and prefer to treat them as equals....and God is too manlike....greedy, violent, possesive, unforgiving and egotistical for my liking.
My whole philosophy is simple..... if a thing looks implausible and lacks logic...it probably is not true. Skepticism is not accepted by most religions...they rely on complete blind faith and indoctination.....
One day one of us will be proved right.....sadly after death we cannot come back and prove that the other was wrong.
I see people banging on about religion and trying to convert people to their religion all the time...my rants are just redressing the balance.

#952460 - 03/28/12 10:27 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Good Lord how did Einstein get mixed up in all this. Oh, someone said Einstein was a Christian. He was probably a good person so I will leave it at that.

There is a Practical side of Religion and a Theoretical side of Religion. The practical side everyone pretty much agrees on. The Theoretical has lots of different opinions.

Some here use the word Believe. Believing something doesn't make it necessarily true. Kinda makes you wonder doesn't it. Now why did this All powerful All seeing all knowing God make us with no ability to know what is right? Either we are all sinners or we are not. Organized Reilgion has decided we are all sinners and are expected to know exactly how to fix the problem. But a sinner knows nothing from nothing and has fallen short of the glory of God. Aw well we are all in this together no?


Ray E. Strode
#952479 - 03/29/12 05:42 AM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Jim,

If you would lay out your beliefs or lack of in the spirit that you just did you wouldn't sound so pompous and arrogant to people. We could have a friendly discussion without either feeling the other was being disrespectful or down right mocking the other. Or...we wouldn't feel compelled to debate things of this nature at all out of respect for one another.

There's a guy on this site who is an atheist. I consider him not only a friend but a brother and he feels the same about me. We talk some about these matters but I don't try to convert him and he doesn't try to be degrading to my beliefs. Mostly we laugh about it. He respects my beliefs and I his. Like I said, if you would conduct yourself in these matters in a similar fashion you would be taken more seriously. If you and another person of faith want to discuss the topic you could do so in a manner of mutual respect or not discuss it at all if the two of you chose.
You go out of your way to belittle people who believe in God, even "god" with a lower case "g."

Here is what I've been trying to get you to do...Strip away all mention or notion of Judaism, Christianity, Islam or any man made religion as you like to characterise them. Forget about those for just a moment. The question is not about the Judaeo Christion faith or Islamic faith or any other in this instance. Just for the sake of this discussion.

What I'm talking about here, in this particular instance is merely if there is a Creator or even could be. Is there evidence or lack thereof?

As for cause and effect, here is what I'm getting at. In the observable Universe every effect has something that caused it to happen. If I were to jump off a building and crash below on the pavement the effect would be that I crashed into the pavement. It didn't just happen in a vacuum. There was a cause. I jumped and gravity did the rest with the result being that I crashed into the pavement. Cause and effect. Every effect has a cause, whether in the lives of people or in the inorganic world. How did stars and planets, galaxies, etc. form? It is believed, and rightly so, that over time concentrations of matter were drawn together because of their gravitational attraction to one another, obtaining more and more mass until they formed various forms of gas. Gravity and other forces on the molecular level formed heavier elements and it caused a chain reaction of sorts as these concentrations of matter became denser and denser until stars were formed.

And so on.

How and why that happens could be much better explained by Scott Campbell as he teaches thermodynamics at South Florida. The point is that in the formation of stars or anything else, other causal events had to occur along the way for everything to condense into being a star in this case.

If I turn on a light switch a light bulb turns on and produces light. Light is the effect. My flipping the switch was the cause for whatever events in the realm of physics that had to occure for the lightbulb to produce light. Again, cause and effect.
A mere lightbulb won't produce light unless certain causal events happen. Energy in the form of electricity in this case have to cause the effect of the lightbulb giving off light.

The so called "Big Bang" was not the cause of the Universe forming. It was an effect. Everything that exists in the Universe once existed in one infinitesimaly small concentration of energy. But where did that energy come from? How did it come to exist? There was a primal cause for it's existance as well as a cause for it to "explode" into forming what we call the time and space continuum in which we exist. What was that primal cause? It's as if something came out of nothing. I can't wrap my mind around that without believing that there had to be someone or something of an intellectual escence causing that something to "be there" outside of our limitation of space and time.

I call it/Him God. A being outside of space and time would not be limited to existing in space and time and it's limitations. One who "creates" something is not contained within the creation but is outside of it. Same thing here. You may create a song. You are not inside the song or a part of it. You are outside looking in, and that's talking about something that isn't even of a physical nature. You are not bound by or within the song in any way, shape or form.

In the same way whatever or whomever caused the Universe via the Big Bang is outside of nature and not limited to time as we concieve of it. To us time is linear. Linear meaning involving measurement in one dimension only. We percieve it as one event occurring after another event and so on. We cannot go back or forward in time in the physical Universe. A Creator would not be limited in such a way being outside of creation.

If you were to create a painting or drawing, would you be held within the bonds of the painting? Of course not. The painting would however be merely two diminsional but you are three diminsional, at least as far as we can discern. You are outside of your creation and are not limited in time or space to the two diminsions limiting the painting. There is no passage of time within the painting. It is static in that way. You as the creator are not. In the same way a Creator of the Universe would not be limited as we are within the boundaries of space and time but would operate in concieveably infinite diminsions that we can't fathom.

Even if evolution as a theory was really true, which is another subject entirely, something or someone had to cause an environment to make the effect an event. By the way, there are Christian scholars who do believe in evolution. Did you know that? I personally don't agree with them based on scientific observations and questions of my own but we would have to agree to disagree on that matter. But evolution doesn't even address the matter we're discussing here. You and I can in similar fashion agree to disagree about the existance of a Creator but don't accuse me of being silly or childish for my observations which I would contend make perfect sense. And remember, we're leaving the religions of men out of the equation for the sake of this discussion. I respect you for holding the beliefs you do although I can't fathom them to be realistic in this case but shouldn't you conduct yourself in the same respectful manner?

The validity of Christianity or any other religion is another matter entirely and for another discussion at another venture. Here we are merely addressing the possibility of the existance of a Creator and nothing more.

And Jim...Don't get so uptight about these things that when you fart, only dogs can hear it.lol I'm not trying to proselytise you into believing as I do. I'm merely sharing some thoughts and concepts with you. Give others the same respect even if you don't agree with them. Not everyone who disagrees with you is silly, childish or whatever you are tempted to label them as. There are concepts within Christianity itself that I differ with other Christians on but I don't consider them to be idiotic. We just see things differently based upon our own observations and I respect their view even if I don't agree.

Take care my friend.

Stevie

#952489 - 03/29/12 10:19 AM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: Little_stevie_b]  
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Stevie I always try to conduct myself properly and do have respect. Sometimes it is not returned especially when people disagree with my POV. I always argue by sticking to the points and facts and never personally insult...pity other do not adopt that philosophy. I might think that a POV, belief or a stance is silly and will speak my mind but I still respect the person making the point. Just because I am at odds with many accepted views does not make me wrong.

Cause and effect
the simple answer to cause and effect is unfathomable. Nobody can get their head around such theoretical things like why we are here or where we came from. We are all ignorant in our knowledge of such things like time, space, dimensions and forces. The very essence of your argument is that you cannot get something from nothing........without there being a creator......but that does not make sense either because if there is nothing in the first place then where did the creator come from? So it is just as logical to say that we happened by chance with no superior force being applied. I am afraid that the whole subject is so mindbogglingly illogical that I and everyone else do not have the answer. I am the first to admit that I do not have the answers.....I only have the questions. So far the theory of a creator in the way you put it is very much open for debate....so nobody should jump to conclusions.
Lets assume that there was a creator........whether it is a being like an ET or a force like gravity or electricity etc etc...or just chance it does not really matter... the fact that we have created religions to venerate such a thing without any proof of what it is and what it did is IMO totally preposterous illogical and a step too far........especially when so many people have such conflicting theories and beliefs.
You call me pompous.......perhaps that is true. I do not consider my views nearly as pompous though as someone who claims that their religious beliefs and theories on creation are right and everyone else is wrong....especially when what they believe in is totally man made with no hard evidence to back it up.
Interesting to hear that you do not accept evolution especially when it is all around for everyone to see. Our genetic make up is so similar to all living things that we had to evolve from things that have gone before....perhaps God (written with a capital "G" this time please excuse previous typos) created evolution. Perhaps God was a spaceman and this world we live in is the result of a genetic experiment......long time abandoned. That possibly holds as much logic as most other religious theories.
My stance is simple I do not buy religion or accept blindly any faith.. I have issues with most if not all religions and faiths...and I certainly have issues with any God if we were indeed created by such a being or entity.

I watched a religious debate on TV many years ago where various people from different backgrounds and religions sat around a large table and debated topics of interest surrounding religious matters. One of the questions was "is the Bible the true word of God?"....now many very intelligent and learned people were arguing various pros and cons.......but the most sense was spoken by the Atheist......he said....."I do not know cause when reading the Bible it is so difficult to see where the word of man ends and the word of God begins"
Later on the subject changed to could God be a female? Now again much dry discussion took place where God was described as asexual. Then one lady who represented the feminist movement put forward a case that God was indeed a woman. In reply a plain speaking down to earth housewife replied "Oh no dear.... God is definitely a man cause what woman could ever allow her son to be crucified."
Perhaps if more people applied this kind of logic rather than believing in fanciful theories then the world would be a better place.

#952490 - 03/29/12 10:43 AM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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I'm glad the link was of interest to you, Mark.
And thank you for the acknowledgement. smile

Donna


Honour the Earth. Without it, we'd be nowhere.

Life is too important to take seriously.

http://www.reverbnation.com/donnamarilynrichblend




#952500 - 03/29/12 11:25 AM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: DonnaMarilyn]  
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adf Offline
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It's true what they say, "there are two sides to every story". Although I'm with Einstein on this subject, there have been brilliant scientists who were convinced that there is a God.

Isaac Newton is quoted as saying "The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being." Who's to say he wasn't right?

On the other hand, Stephen Hawking said: "There is a fundamental difference between religion, which is based on authority, [and] science, which is based on observation and reason. Science will win because it works."

Very clever people, very different views.

Andy


If at first you don't succeed, try the 'ON' switch!
#952503 - 03/29/12 11:46 AM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Aha!! See Jim, ole Buddy. You can discuss the issue of God and religion in a measured and humble way. We'll have to agree to disagree at this point but I don't love you any less. How about that.

Oh. I didn't call you pompous. I just said you come across that way to lots of people when you get going on religion or the existance of God. For future reference why don't you discuss these issues in a more matter of fact way without the personal attacks like you've done with me. I don't think you're pompous or arrogant at all. You're a soft spoken, well mannered fellow but you come across as the former sometimes like on this issue.

If I didn't consider you a friend I wouldn't have spent so much time corresponding back and forth with you here. You're a good guy Jim and I like you for that.

Cheers,

Stevie


#952512 - 03/29/12 02:29 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES

Ian

an all powerful being with infinite wisdom and forgiveness could NOT have made such a pigs ear of things and deserted that which he created in the first place........


"For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive."


Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
can we in all honesty forgive him for ALLOWING the pain and suffering we all endure throught this short life. I said God is preposterous and I stick by it........no all loving being can possibly sit back and let it happen

Well you certainly can't. It's kind of hard to forgive someone who doesn't exist isn't it?

I'd say if you really do have some anger about the issue, that that in itself might be your own acknowledgement of God's existence. IE you're angry against God!

Your response might be that your anger is directed at organized religion, NOT God. But your arguments above are pretty clearly directed at the idea at least, of God. Seems to me that you might actually be a closet believer in God, despite what you're willing to admit to yourself!

Peace Jim,

Ian


Soundclick http://www.soundclick.com/ianferrin
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'Hammers don't build houses. People build houses' - Me

What happened before the big bang? What's the universe expanding into? Did you know the speed of gravity is the speed of light?
#952518 - 03/29/12 03:54 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: Ian Ferrin]  
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Ian you have a great sense of humour......to think that I would actually believe in something I find absurd.

My anger is aimed solely at man.....who clearly created or invented God...and his silliness over this whole issue of God and religion. The reason I get so angry is that I and most others have spent life being dictated to by religious organisations who despite others views or non belief still have the power to make laws that compel folk to do things or prevent folk from saying or doing things that the religion alone disapproves of. Examples include closing everything down on a Sunday, gay marriage, abortion, contraception and this constant refusal to let women have equality within their organisation.


"O would some Power the gift to give us. To see ourselves as others see us! It would from many a blunder free us, And foolish notion"....... Robert Burns

Whilst that could be applied to most folk doing most things it is especially applicable to many of the world's religions and their silly practices and beliefs.

Stevie if you read ALL my posts you will find I stick to the issue and have never directly insulted anyone other than a general inference that I find all religion and belief in God silly and illogical....I do not know how to say it any other way.....I tend to treat everyone as an individual and do not let differences in religion or politics get in the way of friendship.....hell if I did I would have no friends........
Just for the record I have band members and other musicians I work with who are Roman Catholic, Jewish, Church of Scotland and also no fixed religion or opinion. The subject of religion is hardly even mentioned. The only arguments we have are over music and band issues....and even they are infrequent.

#952524 - 03/29/12 05:02 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Ian Ferrin Offline
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Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
Ian you have a great sense of humour......

My anger is aimed solely at man.....who clearly created or invented God...and his silliness over this whole issue of God and religion.

Definitely not clear to me. That in itself is a statement of faith Jim. It's what you believe!

Anyway, I'm happy to agree to disagree. You're a good musician, and I'm happy bow out of this converstion...

Peace,

Ian




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'Hammers don't build houses. People build houses' - Me

What happened before the big bang? What's the universe expanding into? Did you know the speed of gravity is the speed of light?
#952558 - 03/29/12 10:34 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: Ian Ferrin]  
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Thanks Donna for quoting Einstein's views on religion. I have read many of them here and there but your link presented a nice collection. Einstein was a "deeply religious man" he admits but only "in this sense" as he explains in the following:

“The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. He who knows it not and can no longer wonder, no longer feel amazement, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle. It was the experience of mystery — even if mixed with fear — that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms-it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension, nor do I wish it otherwise; such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls. Enough for me the mystery of the eternity of life, and the inkling of the marvelous structure of reality, together with the single-hearted endeavor to comprehend a portion, be it never so tiny, of the reason that manifests itself in nature.”


"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
#952575 - 03/30/12 07:44 AM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
Evolution has been legitimately proved beyond all doubt....

Darwin was treated cruelly for trying to prove his theory.

..proves nothing about God though....

or what point it proves. There is evidence of the big bang and there is evidence as to how life evolved from it.....

will never get prove one way or another...

you cannot prove that something does not exist you can only prove a positive..

One day one of us will be proved right.....

sadly after death we cannot come back and prove that the other was wrong.




You keep alluding to the value of proof.

You make this statement:

Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
I am an Atheist therefore do not believe in anything I do not have proper proof of......




Are you saying you are an Athiest because you have proper proof God does not exist?

Also, where is the proof and evidence you allude to in these statements below?

Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
Evolution has been legitimately proved beyond all doubt....

There is evidence of the big bang and there is evidence as to how life evolved from it.....




#952586 - 03/30/12 08:59 AM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: Sausagelink]  
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"Evolution has been legitimately proved beyond all doubt...."

One question about this theory I have is...

If we evolved from the ape, why are there still apes?

John smile

#952587 - 03/30/12 09:19 AM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: Sausagelink]  
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Sausage...... You miss the point entirely. I am an Atheist simply because there is no proof of the existence of God and I do not accept the premise that any God should be revered. In earlier posts I was quite clear about why I would not have anything to do with a God in the remote possibility of such a thing existing. There has been too much suffering in this world to ever consider that. In fact there is more to support the non existence of a creator and evidence to cast grave doubt on the validity of certain religious ways and beliefs.
I cannot prove a negative it is impossible. For example the Loch Ness monster, Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, ghosts and the Yeti. Now I cannot prove they do not exist only that weighing up the evidence I doubt it very much that they do.....however without any evidence nobody can prove that these things actually do exist.
If someone IS prepared to have blind faith well that is up to them.....I just do not have blind faith and never will.
I should ask what proof YOU have of supporting the theory that God exists? I do not have to prove anything I am not the one claiming that there is a God. Nobody has proof only blind faith and that is a step too far for me.
I bet that you would never have any belief if just left to your own imagination and you would probably have a completely different faith or viewpoint if you were born in a different place. I bet you were preached to and so followed the rest of the flock. If God exists why do we have to be taught about it by MAN? and why does every man have a different take on the subject?

#952590 - 03/30/12 10:17 AM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
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Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick
"Evolution has been legitimately proved beyond all doubt...."

One question about this theory I have is...

If we evolved from the ape, why are there still apes?

John smile


John, hominids - from which homo sapiens later evolved - represent only one branch that diverged from the ancestral line of great apes/chimpanzees. There were/are many branches.

It's been an interesting journey. grin

Donna


Honour the Earth. Without it, we'd be nowhere.

Life is too important to take seriously.

http://www.reverbnation.com/donnamarilynrichblend




#952591 - 03/30/12 10:25 AM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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So, I found this dead horse...and I decided to beat it.


I love words. They say so much.

http://kurtfortmeyer.com
#952599 - 03/30/12 11:36 AM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: Kurt Fortmeyer]  
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It would be a sad day if folks stopped re-exploring old questions. wink

Donna


Honour the Earth. Without it, we'd be nowhere.

Life is too important to take seriously.

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#952611 - 03/30/12 12:28 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Nigel Quin Offline
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Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
I cannot prove a negative it is impossible. For example … the tooth fairy
You clearly haven’t met my dentist wink

#952621 - 03/30/12 12:51 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: DonnaMarilyn]  
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Samuel Harris Offline
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When we determine as reasoning adults that Santa Clause is the creation of the human imagination, we can easily trace the orgins in folklore, history, art and literature. What many "belivers" don't seem to grasp is that the orgin of the concept of God can be traced in exactly the same way. What ardent Atheist don't seem to grasp is that myths about God, or Santa Claus for that matter, are necessary to the very essence of man. If you doubt it, study the life work of Joseph Cambel. There is a meeting ground where both belivers and Athiest can dwell. It has even been introduced on this forum-the Golden Rule. We are not as far apart as it may appear. If there exist such a principle and both believers and athiest know it is right, then maybe "God" is that principle.
Joseph Cambell's research determined that we are hard wired as humans to believe in something. Or as Bob Dylan says, "Your gonna serve somebody".


"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
#952622 - 03/30/12 01:10 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: DonnaMarilyn]  
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John Lawrence Schick Offline
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John Lawrence Schick  Offline
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Originally Posted by DonnaMarilyn
Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick
"Evolution has been legitimately proved beyond all doubt...."

One question about this theory I have is...

If we evolved from the ape, why are there still apes?

John smile


John, hominids - from which homo sapiens later evolved - represent only one branch that diverged from the ancestral line of great apes/chimpanzees. There were/are many branches.

It's been an interesting journey. grin

Donna


Yeah, I've heard that theory Donna. I imagine the "shared ancestry" implies that hominids resulted from the mating of two different species, thus, creating a hybrid. Then the hybrids evolved into the present day homo sapiens.

I would think that the mating of one inferior creature with a superior creature would result in a lobrid rather than a hybrid. grin

Anyway, it's interesting to contemplate theories (speculations). Though I'm a bit skeptical of theories presented by the scientific community. They're very protective in keeping their theories intact. You know, with government grants hanging in the balance.

It reminds me of a documentary several years ago when a group of rogue scientists discovered dinosaur bones that were determined to be a mere ten thousand years old (radiocarbon dating). The mainstream scientific community (exclusive membership) wouldn't allow this data into their archives.

Another widely accepted theory is the conspiracy theory. grin

Interesting topic though my opinion isn't worthy of being taken seriously. I'm just a dumb musician. laugh ... and a skeptical old man.

Best, John smile

#952624 - 03/30/12 01:44 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Well John,
After a while you just get numb from all the information. You need to Google PIN BALL BOOGIE-RED FOLEY to get your bearings again!


Ray E. Strode
#952625 - 03/30/12 01:58 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
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BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
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Why are there still apes?
The reason there are still apes is simple yet complex. As Donna quite rightly states it is thought that there were many species of hominids covering a huge evolutionary timescale. Some developed into modern day apes, monkeys and lemur type animals whilst others evolved into Homo sapiens. Although scientists have found fossils for some of these creatures there are huge gaps remaining. So the exact family tree has many blanks. Here is an interesting article explaining this
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/humans/humankind/low_bandwidth.html
All creatures can adapt or evolve to different environments and lifestyles. Therefore over a lengthy period IE millions of years some of the adaptions are remarkable and some modern animals bear little or no resemblance to their forefathers. Just to compound things some animals that have a striking resemblance to others are a completely different species with a different family tree.

#952629 - 03/30/12 02:36 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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John Lawrence Schick Offline
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I won't go any further into the theory of evolution because I haven't done any on-hands research or testing grin , but keep in mind, "theory" is basically an assumption often based on limited knowledge and/or a faltered premise - in other words, an educated guess.

Either way, I don't see this weighing-in on the existence or non-existence of God.

John smile

#952630 - 03/30/12 02:50 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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John Lawrence Schick Offline
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Originally Posted by Ray E. Strode
Well John,
After a while you just get numb from all the information. You need to Google PIN BALL BOOGIE-RED FOLEY to get your bearings again!


I suppose it couldn't hurt Ray. grin

Thanks, John smile

#952632 - 03/30/12 03:07 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
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DonnaMarilyn Offline
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John, the 'theory' of evolution is considerably more than an educated guess. smile
Unfortunately, the term is often misunderstood.

In scientific parlance, a theory is an explanation that is accepted to be true, because it is based on a given number of facts that have been demonstrated - proven - to be true: in other words, based on extensive empirical evidence.

It's a hypothesis that is an 'educated guess'.

Hence, we have a 'theory of evolution' and not a 'hypothesis of evolution'.

Homo sapiens aren't a result of a cross-breeding of species, but of ongoing, separate adaptation over millions of years.

Donna


Honour the Earth. Without it, we'd be nowhere.

Life is too important to take seriously.

http://www.reverbnation.com/donnamarilynrichblend




#952636 - 03/30/12 04:01 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: DonnaMarilyn]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Ray E. Strode  Online Content
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And John,
If you get really, really, tired of this post you can Google, I'VE ENJOYED AS MUCH OF THIS AS I CAN STAND by Porter Wagoner. Gerenomio!


Ray E. Strode
#952639 - 03/30/12 04:44 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: DonnaMarilyn]  
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John Lawrence Schick Offline
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John Lawrence Schick  Offline
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Originally Posted by DonnaMarilyn
John, the 'theory' of evolution is considerably more than an educated guess. smile
Unfortunately, the term is often misunderstood.

In scientific parlance, a theory is an explanation that is accepted to be true, because it is based on a given number of facts that have been demonstrated - proven - to be true: in other words, based on extensive empirical evidence.

It's a hypothesis that is an 'educated guess'.

Hence, we have a 'theory of evolution' and not a 'hypothesis of evolution'.

Homo sapiens aren't a result of a cross-breeding of species, but of ongoing, separate adaptation over millions of years.

Donna


Yes, and the proof is always too complicated (or the methods/data/procedures are kept under wraps) for us inferior intellects to understand. I'm sorry Donna, but every group has an agenda. And the agenda isn't always layered in facts. Jeez, I've become a skeptical, untrusting old geezer. grin

I do believe we humans breath in oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide, though I haven't ever seen the gasses. Hmm... another perverted fact...? Of course it is a little discomforting when Sandra tries to smother me with a pillow during my sleep. I think I better take Ray's advice. laugh

Interesting the direction this thread has taken since my initial question to the knowledgeable Christian folks.

John smile

#952642 - 03/30/12 05:38 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
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DonnaMarilyn Offline
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John, some of us were the knowledgable Christians you speak of. smile

As to science and a hidden agenda: I have no doubt that - just as with religions - certain people have been less than honest. However, I suspect that, on the whole, science is far more transparent and accessible than some areas of religion. There are so many books, courses, and websites that strive to make science understandable for everyone. It is, after all, in the public interest. People need to know their evolutionary history. Heck, if I can read and understand a clearly written book on evolutionary biology, anyone can. grin

I've worked with scientists (molecular biologists/evolutionary biologists) for 20 years, and I haven't known one who didn't aim for absolute accuracy and integrity in his or her research. The notion of dishonesty and secrecy is abhorrent to them. Believe me, every single piece of data is scrutinised, double-checked for accuracy, re-tested. Over and over, including by colleagues in other labs and institutes. And results - if considered valid - are published in leading journals that are available in any half decent library.

As to the thread meandering: I guess this is what usually happens here on JPF. smile
It is, after all a forum full of creative thinkers. wink (And that question of yours was a good one. wink )

Donna


Honour the Earth. Without it, we'd be nowhere.

Life is too important to take seriously.

http://www.reverbnation.com/donnamarilynrichblend




#952648 - 03/30/12 07:11 PM Re: Christianity Question... [Re: DonnaMarilyn]  
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Jan Johansen Offline
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Jan Johansen  Offline
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Korcula, Croatia
I’m a believer in that it must be something greater than us. Whatever faith we might have, to love each other must be the foundation of that faith.

Everett Adams said:

“Some people just love poking fun and trying to destroy other peoples faith. They will be held accountable for every word they speak someday.”

I believe that is right right, but we will (in a far more severe way) be held accountable for the things we didn’t do to try to prevent the ills of this world.

I’m a Norwegian who has traveled around the world for 3 decades now and has had strong connections with ex Yugoslavia through friendships for a long time. The things that happened down here in the 90s were a lot worse than the political influenced media ever reported. To those of us who say, but we didn’t know anything about it, we will in addition to not trying to do something about it, also be held accountable for our ignorance.

Love you all
Jan



Last edited by Jan Johansen; 03/30/12 07:16 PM.
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