JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Industry Message Forum Being Charged for Music Placement? Gotham Records

Hi Everyone, I remember reading a thread recently about this very thing, where companies offer to work with the songs You give them and in return they try to charge you with absolutely no guarantees of anything... Surely if I'm giving them some of my songs then they should be the ones doing something to f**king earn them?! Or am I deluded and old fashioned to believe that the writer and his/her work deserve such token respect. Anyway, I've copied and pasted the email below, please lend your 2cents.


"Sean...

Sorry it took so long to reply to your email.
We are slammed...and yes...we do receive hundreds of emails from independent artists.

I listened to your material and I was very impressed.

We would love to represent you and your material!

Here's the deal

I started Gotham Records 17 years ago and have been very successful.
We are most known for developing artists and signing them to the major labels.

Due to the demise of the retail side of the business, I decided to take a hiatus from signing new artists to the label, and focus on one of our greatest strengths…Music Placement.
Since we started Gotham Music Placement, just over 3 years ago, we have signed 180 of some of the greatest artists, of all genres, from all over the world, and have placed their material in numerous motion pictures, TV shows, advertising campaigns and video games. (See Attachments)
Now, since our catalog is so strong and varied, we are being hired to supervise entire productions.
This is extremely advantageous to our artists, as it will open up numerous placement opportunities.
Since we are still an active record label, with major distribution through Sony-RED, we can release full soundtracks at any time. This will be wonderful for all!

The standard agreement is the SAME FOR EVERYONE...
* It is non-exclusive...
My feeling is that if you work with another person, and they placed your material in production 'X' then you have given me the ammunition to place it with production 'Y'.
* Every placement is split 50/50...Very fair and standard.
* It is a three-year term...
Which really doesn't mean much...If we are happy working together, we'll continue to do so.
* I require a one-time fee of $200 upon signing of the agreement...
I ask this from our artists for the simple reason that between legal fees, staples, mailings, meetings, conventions, etc., we will end up spending far more than $200 over the course of 3 years. Regardless of how wonderful an artist's material might be, and how hard we have worked, there is always a possibility that nothing gets licensed. If this occurs...WE have lost money, and the artist(s) haven't lost a dime. This is NOT how we make our money.

If you are interested in joining forces, I will send you an agreement.
For the agreement, please provide me with the following…

1) A list of your songs that you wish us to represent.
The material has to be original...No samples!
Unlike other organizations, you do not have to supply all of the names or actual masters at this time...You can always add / remove (with proper notice) tracks at any time.

2) Send me the address to which the agreement would be sent....This is just for the header of the agreement.
Once the agreement is signed and you are onboard, we will ask for some information on the material, such as lyrics, themes, etc.

Please note what I tell every artist…
We have incredible contacts. We have had much success with placement. (See recent newsletter & bios I've attached)
We can get to anyone…This does not guarantee that your music will be placed.
You could have written and recorded the most beautiful song EVER. It means…NOTHING !! Placement is about RELEVANCE !!
For example… If you wrote an incredible song about running through the desert with your lover, it will not be licensed for a scene where a submarine gets attacked by a giant squid.
Due to the current status of the industry, everyone is trying to place their music. I will never guarantee that your music will be placed…But I sure make it a lot easier.

If you are interested in being represented, I suggest you let me know as quickly as possible, as I am about to start supervising 'El Nacional...In Search Of The American Dream', am currently working on another major retail campaign...and we are getting close to the maximum number of artists we wish represent at any one time.

Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions.

All the best,

Patrick Arn
President"

Take a hike Patrick! Everybody's a big shot president these days. If they're the original Gotham Records, they've certainly stooped low.

Sean, there are plenty of legit libraries that place your music in TV/film and won't charge you one red cent. I'd wager Gotham Record's success today lies in the $200 upfront fee. Start here: http://musiclibraryreport.com/

Though the deal can differ from library to library, 50/50 license split and 100% writer's PRO royalties seems to be the standard deal (with no upfront charge to the writer - duh).

Good luck, John

Sean, Your instincts are correct. Hang onto both your songs and your money. Perhaps you could make a counter-offer to Gotham Records. In return for them paying you a $200 fee, you'll give them non-exclusive rights to place one of your songs. But make sure it's not one of your better songs.

The original Gotham Records was started back in 1946 and this one started in 1994 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotham_Records ). It could be legit -- or the $200 might be the new way of making money. IF they are for real, then $200 is a reasonable administrative fee for 3 years -- IF they can get placements for you.

I would keep an open mind and investigate a little further.

Kevin

Not the same company Kevin. This Gotham is located in Santa Monica. The famous one isn't in existence any longer (since 1956), thus, the name "Gotham Music" was free for the pluckin'.

There are hundreds of music libraries that do the same thing but don't charge the product maker.

Charging the product supplier is just plain el stinko.

John

Charging the product supplier is just plain el stinko.



I agree.

One of my cowriters signed a non-exclusive deal with someone for two years. This sort of thing is getting pretty commonplace. They have the right to try and place your song, in return for which they get a cut; but if you place something without them, they don't get anything. They only get paid if their contacts pay off.

However his deal was that they would only take 25%, and there was no "you pay us to work for you". In a way, they are asking to function as a song plugger -- represent your song for a fee, but they are acting as if they are something else.

There are certainly people who will do this "no commitment" relationship and it's pretty straightforward. But this guy looks like he's trolling for funds. If he sends this e-mail out to 500 songwriters, and ten of them say "Wow, they love my song, I'm going to be rich!" and send in $200, he makes a couple thousand to pay his bills.

I'd consider it if he weren't asking for upfront cash -- "Yeah, I'll cut you in if you get the song placed" -- but it sounds more like he's phishing a bit.

SCAM.

Yeah Bob, that four letter word wraps it up.

John

I think Commisioner Gordon should call Batman right away on this one...sounds like a Joker trying a new trick to SCAM the masses in Gotham out of their $200.
No legit publisher asks for $ up front.

Absolutely a no-go! If he makes money from taking your songs, he's not motivated to pitch them. Real business is always win-win. Thi is a win-loose in his favour, which means it's not real business in my book.

How can you say no to a company that represents the Vicious Martinis and the Loose Nuts?



NO

Not to mention Rip Dizzy and Flybanger Colin.

Yeah... in the attached documents there was more nonsense about how successful they are... I've never met a successful person that had to labour this point... It's like the saying "Honestly, I'm famous really".

They're obviously just phishing for funds, if staples are costing them that much then maybe their amazing "success" could cover this.

The golden rule is "They pay me" not the other way around. Any legit outfit should not need or ask for money from songwriters or artists. People who ask for up front payment are just scammers.

For the record, I didn't read their note, only your concern and description which is 100% clear in my mind... pass. Period.

Nigerian email scams still sadly work.. so do things like that which is why people do it. Always makes me want to puke. But some people are just not ready for the truth and common sense, so you help those who "get" it (like you) and the rest learn a $200 lesson (if even that teaches them anything).

Brian

I believe we had a discussion about Patrick Arn and Gotham Records a few months back. I believe we also decided then that it was a scam...

Yes, we actually are VERY confused at this point. We are contacting actual artists that have worked with Gotham and will see what they say.

Patrick Arn rubs elbows with some pretty big people in the industry, and speaks at SXSW (is a speaker slotted for 2012 and spoke in 2004). He's got quite a large success record; but that letter that the OP posted was roughly the same one we just got.

That scares me.

I'm hoping we hear from the artists themselves and I will post results if I hear back from anyone!!

PS: it also should be mentioned that we sent him a press kit and initiated contact, not the other way around. He is noted as a Music Supervisor on a few projects in the industry currently.

Yeah, man... the price of staples alone will pull you under...

ROTF!!!

HHHHHaaaaaa--you're right Shayne!!!staples always were what caused my empire to collapse!!!lolol

I am having my first demo produced and this is the perfect place to join in this discussion--what have you guys done as far as finding a publisher for your music--do you do anything in particular such as try to find who they have actually found buyers for others muaic? I mean is that even really possible( does the publisher actually give out that kind of info?) Does Don Henley or Neil Young actually have a phone number I could call?
I really would like some input because I don't know how much Gotham spends on staples but for us chasing the big dream of having our music done by the big timers we definitely give thanks over a can of beans at the supper table sometimes because we will shell out the money gladly to people who can help us move closer to that dream---alot of times money we don't really have to spend--
so...after the demo is done---where to next?
thanks
tim

@houlihan

Finding a publisher?

I can tell you what my strategy is. Write some really great songs, post them online, try to network with great writers, who might be interested in writing with you, due to the great songs you've written. Write with them when you can, and share your address books.

No great songs, no great cowriters
No great cowriters, no great publishers
No great publishers, no artist pitches

Sometimes you can get lucky to jump the fence, if your songs are truly great, at places like SongU and Taxi.

You can check the lists of publishers at the publishers association, but it's hard to separate the good from the bad, and the good ones always has a closed door policy where you can't send them songs without a reference. The reference can come from cold calling their office, so you get a "code" from the receptionist, but you still need references to get the code.

If someone is jumping up and down to take your music, be very cautious, it's probably scammers. That's the way you can tell the good from the bad.

So, I think it's more true to say that you have to earn the right to be published. You don't just "find" one..

yeah---great point songcabinet--earn the right to be published.
thanks
tim

I am in the process of getting a book published, and the same thing probably applies there as well. In fact a self-publising company is very intrested in it and already mailed me a contract, but they want a total of $8000 which does include an aggressive marketing campaign. This paricular self-pub company has been in business for 90 years, wo it's obviously not one of these fly-by-nighters. But that seems like some very steep figure and one I won't be able to come close to meeting without being abale to find a funding source.

Once many years ago, in the pre-Interent age I went to see someone about publsihing some of my works, and the lady told me upfront that if anyone wants to charge the writer upfront, then they're racketeers. I don't know; mayble this is now standard practice as evedryone I've contacted is looking for upfront fees. Try checking with the BBB and see if they have any rating there.

Peace,
Brian

Hey Brian,

It's difficult to believe a respectable book publisher would base publishing decisions on the writer's ability to pay $8,000. I would think the quality of their books would suffer.

Would love to know what book publisher this is.

John

Is it Dorrance?

Or Vantage?

Interestingly enough, there is a whole industry that caters to the "self publishing" crowd.

Ran into Vantage a decade or two ago when someone hired me to look into how much Vantage had actually sold (apparently the contract included the right to audit sales) ...but I quickly learned the nature of the beast and my client decided to drop the investigation.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanity_press


Vantage is\was quite up front about it..so don't conclude this is a scam, at least wrt Vantage. Others may hide the fact, or use a bait & switch etc...

Yes, the publisher I got the contract with is Dorrance. They have been around nearly a century, so they are no fly-by-night, but that still seems like an awful lot of money.

I don't think it's at all true, however, that you actually can get a book published for free as some seem to try to claim.

Peace,
Brian

Beechnut, The 'vanity press' has been around for ages. They'll publish anything the author gives them and deliver a set number of books for a set fee. How the author then sells or gets rid of them is his business. It's not a very good business model for an author hoping to get paid for writing a book.

From everything I can tell, Dorrance -- which probably has been for much of its history a legitimate paper-and-binding publisher -- is right now a "pay us and we'll do the work" outfit.

I got my first letter from Dorrance the moment I copyrighted a collection of my lyrics, saying how pleased they'd be to publish my work (for a fee).

I have been on their mailing list for years -- I think I finally managed to unsubscribe from the e-mail.

Look, they will do what they say. You pay them hundreds of dollars (or more?) and they will make books out of your work which you can then try to sell. I'm sure they will make it available to everybody they send their catalog to.

What I object to is them making it sound like they are doing you some sort of favor, or that they actually have read your work and think it wonderful. You can get this service in a lot of different ways, especially in this day of DIY and every service available on the internet. You can get your work bound and "published" -- you still have the challenge of getting people to buy it.

Dorrance -- in my opinion, from seeing their literature -- is just a company who wants to be paid for services rendered.

Of course, any business wants to be paid for services rendered. But was wondering if you finally did publish your song lyrics and who you got to do it.

Peace,
Brian

I copyrighted (copywrote?) two collections of my song lyrics, I did not publish them. There would be no point.

I do have a publishing entity with BMI for when I need it. I have, I think, two songs actually published, where I share publishing. Both song are commercially available (and a handful or more of people have actually paid cash money to own them).

"Published" is a slippery word. It *used* to mean printed on a printing press and bound in a paper copy which would be available at your local booksellers. It doesn't really mean that anymore. Dorrance, and outfits like them, are telling you that publishing still means what it used to mean, and making money off of your wish to have things the way they used to be, but aren't anymore.