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#927628 10/11/11 02:47 PM
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Who's got experience with song pluggers (Nashville or otherwise). Good ones? Bad ones? I suppose there is no way to monitor how hard they are working for you (or not). Is emailing publishers a waste of time?
I realize these things have been asked before, but it is a dynamic that changes as more folks get experience doing it. Please share with the less fortunate.

Daddio #927631 10/11/11 03:11 PM
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Hey Daddo,

Run !

cheers, niteshift

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I have some experience with this. I've found that most are full of crap, and will tell you that your stuff is great and they'll be glad to plug away for $500/month or so. In the end, there are only about 20 people in Nashville who are really in the music business.. everyone else is just playing and stoking their egos by being able to say they have a "publishing deal", which means nothing in and of itself. I'm not trying to come off as cynical or anything, it's just how it is. If you don't have a direct link to the artist or to one of these 20 or so people, you might as well forget it if you are an independant writer. The labels have their own stable of writers and will rarely go outside of that circle unless you get really lucky or write something that is so obviously a cash cow that they can't live without it. My approach has been to hook up with a publisher who also supposedly plugs the material. She will get 50% of the publishing of anything that she gets cut. Outside of that, I've been developing relationships with writers who do get regular cuts and also with up and coming artists who want to write together etc. It's not an impossible nut to crack, but beware of someone who promises the moon in exchange for a monthly fee. One smart thing you can do if you want to check out someone's B.S. factor is to put a CD together with your three best songs and one song that is an absolute turd. Then you can really tell who will be honest with you and who is just blowing smoke. Good luck!

Doc

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Originally Posted by DocHolladay
The labels have their own stable of writers and will rarely go outside of that circle unless you get really lucky or write something that is so obviously a cash cow that they can't live without it.


I don't mean to specifically pick something out of your post just to disagree, but the truth is, songs come from all over town and you never know which ones are gonna get cut. If the labels just used songs that were partially owned by their company's publishing company, then they would be cheating themselves out of some good material. In general for a record, the producers in town listen to thousands of songs. They don't all come from the artists labels.

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Niteshiift says run ----- I say run fast..............




Thomas Shea

Thomas Shea - Songwriting
http://www.soundclick.com/thomasshea

Justice - Songs
http://www.soundclick.com/justice-nebraska

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There's nothing wrong with songpluggers, IF:

1. YOUR SONGS ARE READY. Asking a songplugger if your song is ready is like asking a dog if it is hungry. If you want to find out whether your song is ready, you need a team of sober, honest people to advise you. Some of those people should have experience in the business. None of them should have any possibility of making money depending on their answer.

and:

2. IF THE SONGPLUGGER IS ANY GOOD. Have they placed major songs recently? Did their placement come through their own work or through their client's connections? Here's a good litmus test...do they turn down paying work if the songs aren't ready?

Unfortunately, many songwriters don't follow these suggestions. They want to pitch songs that aren't ready and will listen to anyone who tells them their stuff is good.

First, write good songs. Second write a few great songs. Third, network and make friends in the industry. Somewhere along the line develop a trusted team of advisers. Sit on your money, don't spend money on demos until you're writing good songs, don't pitch to majors until you're writing great songs...your team will tell you when your songs are good or great. Strangers won't cut your songs, friends will. Make friends with really talented people. Don't suck up to them or gherm them...make friends with them. If you don't know how to make friends, learn how (here's a good strategy to make friends...be a good friend).

See? It's easy! smile


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

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"you need a team of sober, honest people"

Well, one or the other. If you can get both, great.


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My Soundclick

2007 Grand Prize Winner International Songwriting Competition

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Originally Posted by Z. Mulls
"you need a team of sober, honest people"

Well, one or the other. If you can get both, great.


Well ain't that the truth ?

The drunk ones are honest because they're drinking, because they know the music business is crap. And the "honest" ones are sober to soak up all the money from the realist dreamers who are drunk.

Go figure ?

cheers, niteshift


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No offense taken. I live next door to Jason Aldean's producer and he told me he usually listened to 5,000 songs or more for each record they do. I'm not an expert by any means on the ins and outs of the writing world... I've only been seriously trying to get somewhere with it for a cpl years, so what I said there is just my impression based on my experience and what other writers have told me. I certainly do hold the belief that it's possible to get cuts as an independant writer, otherwise I wouldn't be trying to make it happen! LOL

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He must have a lot of spare time and really good patience to listen to 5000 or more songs for each one he chooses to do. Doing simple maths.......At an average of 3 minutes per song that is a lot of time to spend (approx 250 listening hours) or approx 6 weeks solid listening from 9 to 5. I am afraid I would have some advance screening process to weed out the weak songs and songwriters chaff before listening to any songs worth considering if it was me.
I on the other hand would have the opposite problem I would want to record 5000 plus songs..... I have heard some great unrecorded and written so many good ones myself....LOL

PS And they say that nobody allows songs to be pitched to them these days well this guy must go through a few pitches from songwriters....@ 60000 or more per album.

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If one is doing a CD/Album, is there a theme they are sticking to? If it's just a style or tempo change they are looking for (to show the artist's versatility), then maybe there are staffers that do the initial sorting and forward to the producer. I'll bet the producer only listens to a couple verses and then passes or fails based on 'do they want to hear more' and get hooked. CM is noted for digesting large quantities of material and I would expect the 'decision makers' to have a streamlined way to quick-sort through material and minimize the time they spend.

Daddio #927841 10/12/11 06:03 PM
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Yes most top producers have staff to weed out the chaff and create a shortlist usually a dozen or so potential songs for each song to be recorded. The ten second rule normally applies...if the first ten seconds do not grab you then move on....that is what I believe most do when sifting through songs....I can usually spot a goodun or a badun within that time frame....or listeneing to a few selected seconds from the middle of the song is another option to create a shortlist. I was led to believe that staff writers if writing for an artist are given a brief as to what sort of subject matter and tempo etc a specific artist wants and they tend to write to measure.
However nothing is written in stone and each has his own way of working.....they may have staff or they may use songpluggers or they may ask around.....hell there is enough songs to choose from whichever way they do it.....
what surprises me is that despite having such a huge choice of really good songs out there...they still mostly pick crap.

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Listening 5000 and more songs is something impossible for anyone..Well this kind of thing most of the perfectionist do..which he is!!

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No...no ...no that is so totally wrong in oh so many ways cause a perfectionist would actually write his own songs.....and if he did not have the talent he would learn.
Having listened to the crap that is produced nowadays perfectionist should not be used in the same sentence as producer....but welcome to JPF.....stick around you will learn a lot....cause judging from that post you have a lot to learn.

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Humm,
I once sent some songs, actually 2 because that's all they wanted in the submission to a producer. He called me for an additional 8 songs. After they chose all the songs, and I didn't hear further, I called him. He told me they went thru 2000 songs to select the ones for the Album, so it is reality that a producer would listen to thousands of songs when producing someone. You guys just have to write better!


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I'd say to Big Jim, your math doesn't work because I doubt they're going to listen to all three minutes of any song, unless it's really really good, and probably just to the chorus, and that's it. And they might not go that far if they don't like the verse and you don't grab 'em right away. I know this because years ago, when we'd send in cassettes, we'd include an SASE to get the tape back, and when we did get the tape back, we'd check to see how far the tape was advanced because that told us how much of the song the listened to ( they often didn't rewind it, which was good ), and usually was just to the end of the first chorus, but sometimes not even that far. I'm sure they listen to a lot of songs, but 5K does sound a bit much. I thought it was more like one in 200 - 500, but I don't know.

Also, on the subject of songpluggers, I have one for one of my songs, so we shall see how it goes. I think if the plugger has a track record, and real access, it's a good thing. But I wouldn't pay more than $75 per month per song, and I'd want to see their pitch report every month. I'd like to know that the plugger has enough access to meet with A&R people, producers, etc., face to face. I know it's not possible all the time, but one that does have real access, should be able to some of the time.

Last edited by pathardy; 10/27/11 03:58 AM.
Daddio #930577 10/30/11 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Daddio
Good ones? Bad ones? I suppose there is no way to monitor how hard they are working for you.


I wanted to jump in and introduce you to www.audiorokit.co.uk because, as people have pointed out, it can be tough finding a plugger that you can fully trust.

The Audio Rokit platform allows you to submit your music direct to industry professionals who are seeking music and you get guaranteed feedback so you know where you stand.

Another great feature is that unlike almost all alternatives, you DO NOT pay for each submission, you pay a very low monthly fee and that's it.

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For Nashville I'd suggest looking into SongU http://www.songu.com/
Besides the courses ect., you can pitch songs to their songpluggers, who are working in Nashville and offers you real deals. The coaching at SongU is also terrific, and worth the cost alone, so you get much more than you pay for!

Another site I've come across for Nashville is http://www.yourtunespace.com/index.html . I don't know that from direct experience, though, and would probably consider it a hosting site with a community built around it, but it seems there are some kind of opportunity there to at least get your songs heard in that area.

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My philosophy is that pitchers should only get paid for a succesful pitch not just for pitching sake. Like a no win no fee arrangement. Perhaps adopting this philosophy would weed out the con men and the folk who take on any old crap to pitch. At the moment these guys are on a win win scenario...whilst the songwriter is on a lose lose. This would force them to only choose and pitch the best pitchable songs...it would raise the bar and probably make folk more open to accepting pitches from trusted sources. OK all songs are subjective BUT professionals usually can spot the good from the bad.
It would also help if folk pitched only their very best material thereby helping the weeding out process even further.

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Big Jim,
You are absolutely correct in philosophy, I just can't find one who will work on a pay-me-when-I-am-successful basis. I can see the need to pay your bills while pitching, but if one gets enough folks paying them to pitch alone, that could be quite lucrative indeed. Of course, there are lots of people making a living off songwriter's dreams anyway, so why not song pluggers too? In the old 'payola' system, you actually got airtime for that money and the pluggers had access to get that done.
When I started this thread, I was hoping for a recommend to find an honest one that someone had experience with. I guess I got my answer! There are not that many.
There was one recommend, and thanks for that.

Daddio #930686 10/31/11 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Daddio
Who's got experience with song pluggers (Nashville or otherwise). Good ones? Bad ones? I suppose there is no way to monitor how hard they are working for you (or not). Is emailing publishers a waste of time?
I realize these things have been asked before, but it is a dynamic that changes as more folks get experience doing it. Please share with the less fortunate.


Daddio, sorry I misunderstood. I thought you wanted stories about experience, not that you were looking for a specific recommendation.

Here's a good one: Sherril Blackman. He was named "Songplugger of the Year" by Music Row Magazine. If he's still in the business, you should be able to find him with a search. He is very selective in whom he pitches.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

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Thanks Mike,
First, write a good song! I heard that somewhere ...
If the guy you suggested takes your work, I guess you have a good indicator of 'good', and not just a subjective one. After all, the cruelest lie of all is the one we tell ourselves!

Daddio #930700 10/31/11 04:46 PM
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Although it's not an "all there is to know about the Music Business" encyclopedia, I'd say it's well worth your time to read Kelley Lovelace's new book: "If You've Got a Dream, I've Got a Plan".

He's currently & actively putting out hits, down-to-earth, and tells it like it is. The info is up-to-date & he talks about pros & cons of song pluggers.

Just MHO, but a must read for all songwriters trying to get a foot into a Music Row door.

~Karen


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