JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Are any of these song structures off or odd?

vvcbc- repeat chorus
or

vcvcbcc

I did a song in the first version and was told it was kind of a no no...need advice asap...it is a punk rock style summer song..."bubblegum" pop I would call it...can this work? I just feel the song says all it needs to say....but if its a big no no then perhaps I need to come up with one more verse...


thanks

Kim

Kimberly,

If you are the artist, you can do whatever you want. If you are trying to get an artist interested in recording your song, and you break too many rules, you are giving them something they can either do themselves or are too different for their marketplace.

The second format you mentioned VCVCBCC is about 90% of commercially recorded music throughout the past century. You are always welcome to challenge it and sometimes it works. But if you are getting numerous people telling you that it doesn't work for whatever reason, you probably ought to listen. That is why it is important to get multiple opinions.

One thing I see often are people bringing in songs that are like "stepping off a curb." They are trying to be clever or "different for different's sake." But all the achieve is ending up strange and unusable outside of their own narrow window.

It could be something like the time factor. I have heard four-five minute songs that seem to fly by due to the interesting story, certain melodic hooks, attractive language use. At the same time I have had songs that are so melodically boring I have to look at the watch and can't believe they are only 3 and a half minutes long. The verses sound redundant, just like the choruses, there are no easily definable hooks, no choruses that stand out, just kind of one long drone.

I hear songs that have subject matter that is simply done to death, or a tone (negative songs)that might be surrounded by a ton of songs that are exactly the same tone.

A lot of cases it takes WAY too long to get to the payoff. We are dealing in a world of 30 second attention spans. It is not always pleasent, but it is reality.

I can't give you an educated answer if I didn't hear the song. But I know where people fall down so often. But if you get several independent opinions, you might find many of them saying the same thing. That might be what you are going through.

MAB

I do not see anything wrong with those structures but it depends on the song and how long it takes to get through it and how long it takes to the chorus in the case of the one that begins with two verses.

Thanks Marc and Colin

It takes 44 secs from intro to chorus. It has 2 verses, is done quite fast and then chorus starts...then goes into bridge, chorus, break chorus. The song is 3 min 22 sec and is rather fast. I had it posted on the muses muse but since it is still being worked on I prefer to not post it on this site yet...

I messaged you Colin.

Thanks!!!

Kim

Kim,

That would be about the right time frame. But again, as I said, I have heard songs that do exactly the same thing, get into their chorus pretty quick, yet feel like they are five minutes long. It could be that they don't advance the story line, have redundant information in the verses, or the worst, have a chord or melody pattern that is just plain boring.

MAB

One problem that may result from v, v, c, b, etc. is that the 'musical movement' of Verse 1 will repeat in Verse 2, then be followed by the different musical movement of the chorus, then that will be followed by a third different musical movement.

Depending on the actual song that may be too much change, not enough repetition to supply structure. Listeners could stray off into their own thoughts, becoming 'un-hooked'.

In v c, v c, b, c structure the bridge serves the function of refreshing the ear with change after the repeats of the v c musical movement.

A third repeat of the musical movements, v c, v c, v c, risks monotony and the un-hooking phenomenon. You notice when the song ends that you haven't been paying attention to it at all.

That can happen with any structure of course.

The variant movement of the bridge re-hooks you, enabling a repeat of the v c or just the chorus, which the ear welcomes back, having become familiar with the rhythm, rhyme, and melody earlier.

Depending on the lyrical content and quantity, any structure can work, sustaining 'hook factor' without losing the audience. Speaking abstractly of it is guesswork at best. Only hearing can pass judgment on whether it works.

I do it without too much thinking anymore, and I started to notice the kids who write well here doing it... What is "IT" Mike? lol

Trimming! - For example, They have a very short reasonable normal intro. Then later they have an extended bridge or a long tailing repeat chorus.So the kid says to me "I want to cut that intro and come in singing the verse" She instinctively knew something had to give way. And the bridge was more potent and effective to the song than the intro.
Now if it had been "Still The One" by Orleans I would have NEVER
cut the intro

I say okay lets try it out.. We feel it works. Now at first it seemed like it was no BIG deal either way. But later in the song
when she wants to go off on a section, this cutting/trimming at the top really had a greater overall effect on the song.
If you TAKE from one place you can add to another, It seems songs have a way of rounding themselves out.

On one of my older songs which I have had much tremendous feedback on I had an intro, then a verse into the chorus - Intro/ V/C Normal...
But I chose to do a half chorus and it worked perfectly.
YES leaving out my lyrics! The words have to take a back seat to the whole song just like everything else being done.

1- It saved an extra BANG for later in the song. When your getting the second chorus you don't even know the first one was shortened.

2- It was a SLOWER tempo song. So it helped get the whole song moving as a whole. You feel the impact or the effectiveness later without noticing.

No re-intro after the chorus in this case (which people do a lot) it bangs straight into the second verse.
Songs can balance themselves out if you take more time with them
and don't always accept the first thing that comes to you.
Would this work? would that work? yes? no? It could go this way or that way,which way should it go?

There is NO right or wrong way ANY song can go, It's only what's
EFFECTIVE that really matters. If it's effective it's the right way. If it's not effective it's the wrong way

All the best
Mike

95% of the songs I write now are

vcvcbcc


I really don't even think about it anymore. That is just the way it is - works the best and is most accepted.

Tom

As an excercise, I wrote a song with the structure:
AABCDE

(Can't really call anything a verse or chorus, with that structure.)
It was fun to do, and seems to have gone over well.

This is it:
"Tortured Artist"
if you're curious to hear how it turned out.

Is it commercial? I can't really say. I think that each section has its own hook, so in that sense, yes. But there is no repetition, so: can that really be commercial?
Good thing that I am not trying to make any money off of this stuff.
(It can be a damn expensive hobby.)

If you really want to break down why certain formats work more than others, you can look it it like this:

Establish,
Reinforce
Repeat.

In most commercial songs throughout history, the first two lines establish the meter, the visual furniture, what the scene is.
The second two lines mirror those in pattern, and rhyme.
If the song has a "channel" or "pre-chorus" the next two lines will be somewhat different in a build into the chorus, which usually does exactly what the verse does, in less lines.

The second verse does the same thing, chorus, etc. with developing the story as they go. The bridge is the "Courtroom closing argument" "Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, what I think about this song is...." the wrap up.

If you listen to the famous songs of the past, the Beatles, Motown, most of the pop and rock of history, and pretty much all country, you find the songs follow this format.

Each section lasts around 30 seconds. That is what we are conditioned to hook into as listeners. It is the reason that commercials are 30 seconds long. They follow the same pattern. Establish what the product is, add the details, repeat and wrap up.

Comedians who are successful will have the set up, which usually lasts around 7-10 seconds, then hit a punch line at that mark. Usually, when there is an ongoing routine, or several jokes put together on a certain theme, it usually wraps up in 30 seconds. There are exceptions to every rule but most often each section is in thirty second increments.

As in everything, there are exceptions to the rules. But if you break them down, even with some of the most famous "obscure" songs in history, you will find them falling right into this pattern. Of course some just defy description. But for the most part this is the pattern our society is ordered into. The challenge usually comes in finding ways to be unique Inside that format.

MAB

VCVCBCC <----Have to also agree with this.

Another good one, and sort of a pop thing, is CVCVCBC
That way you can get em with the chorus first. In an effort to make it 3:20 you could not do the double chorus at the end. Also depending on the tempo of the song and the length of the verses, + intro/outro, you could still do the double chorus at the end. I had a single out that was CVCVCBC, but in general, VCVCBCC is best for most songs. Whats cool about having the chorus first is, you hit em over the head with it...immediately, there's no waiting. What's not cool about it, is burn factor.

In the name of being creative, you can structure a song however you like, but always remember people are used to the "Normal" format