JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Who, on this forum makes their living in the music industry?

I got up early this morning, and headed for my day job work space. But this is my day off. I went in to write and record music with no distractions! Got me thinking, some people go to work every day doing exactly what they would do on their day off.

So, who among you make a living in this music business thing?

I'll start off with the founder Brian. Keep it going brother. Let's put a little something in his Christmas stocking this year- I know, you are probably Jewish, but you know what I mean.
I am impressed with the quality site you have managed to maintain all these years. It is a vehicle, and I would be walking not driving without it.

Marc Barnette: We all appreciate the insight of an insider and the fact that you are so generous with your time and knowledge. Thanks brother.

Mike Caro. How you manage to carve out a career for yourself in with all the challenges of the bad economy and your own health problems, and still manage to produce, mentor, encourage and contribute constructively to this forum is inspiring. We know you LOVE music. You know what is good, what last; and you understand the entire craft required to take an a song from an idea to a finished product. You know it is hard- and still somehow the love of music keeps you above the wave. I salute you.

Mike Dunbar- The only one of you I have met in person. A real professional: a humble and sharply intelligent individual whose post read like a published book. Thank you friend.

Big Jim Merrilees: I love your voice even more once I heard the interview with glenda. The contrast between your disarming Scottish accent and your gravelly vocal just tells me how much music does in fact transform us. You make it happen in Scotland and I would pay to hear you there.

There are many more of you that I could mention but I would like to hear from you how make music their occupation. Or I would like you to tell us about those who do. Music is just as important as science, manufacturing, education or health- hell it is health!

I'll give a shout out to Bob Cushing and Jody Whitesides, whose inspirational stories certainly get across to me that making a living as a performer is an act of will.

Scott

Edit: I'll add Heidi Thompson too - for the same reason

Nice acknowledgement Samuel. Thanks very much.

MAB

Yours truly, 22 years now, and yes, you've met me in person!{Pineyfest}

Thanks for the kind words.....Yes I make a living but everyday it gets harder and the pay gets less......Whilst I believe there will always be a demand for live music it seems to be stifled by discos and Karaokes......plus the recession and anti smoking laws in pubs and clubs have not helped......So I adopted a if you cannot beat em join em attitude. I have diversified and am playing places I would never have several years ago. I am also working solo most of the time off backing tracks rather than with a band.....few clubs can afford a full band and opt for solo or duo performers......and a lot have cutback on live entertainment altogether. Not long ago there was live entertainment most nights...now entertainment midweek is rare and some places only put on acts a couple of times a month just at weekends. They say things go in cycles well I hope that the 70s cycle when bands could play several times a week for great money makes a reappearance......doubt it though.

Jim its amazing that we live thousands of miles apart, but the same is going on here in the U.S. Its getting pretty depressing. A lot of guys I know who have making their living for YEARS playing music have had to get the dreaded "Day job" I'm still hanging in there so far.Like you, I've had to lower my standards. It used to be my personal mission to PACK every bar I played. Now I'm just grateful if ANYONE shows up, and I get paid.

Hi guys,

Jim, I'm inclined to agree with you that it will never go back to where it was. In addition to the reasons you mentioned, competition, anti smoking (And MUCH stricter DUI laws) there are increased liability insurance premiums, where people get drunk, get in a wreck and then sue the club for serving them alcohol. I don't know of any clubs out there that don't have some form of lawsuit against them. I know several that simply gave up and went out of business.

The biggest impediment to live entertainment I have encountered has been Karaoke. Club owners and managers, who encountered all of that, and low entertainment value for their customers, along with diva attitudes for many acts (nothing like causing all kinds of trouble, demanding more money, when the customers are less and less) they simply decided to quit fighting and made the audience the show.

When shows like American Idol, America's got Talent, British Idol and all the other reality shows essentially made karaoke singers into stars, the die was cast. Now record companies will no longer sign anyone not from a reality show or having a LARGE fan base to begin with.

Fortunately, I saw the handwriting on the wall on this around 1999 and switched what I do to teaching as opposed to live performing as my central bread and butter. And it wasn't something I sought. You can only watch one club after another go broke and close before you realize, you better start finding something for a day job.

Adapation is the key. Those that adjust to smaller venues, home studios, retirement homes, the things that find their niche will adapt and survive. Those that expect things to stay the same, won't. Just part of natural selection.

MAB

Is it any wonder I get so angry when I hear the crap they call pop music. I speak out against a system that allows people who cannot sing to be called stars and earn obscene amounts of money. I have spent 40 years on the road and the industry owes me nothing.....But the people I work with barely scrape a living. They work hard perfecting their talent and serving their apprenticeship. They should not in the real world see Beiber or Swift or Spears et al as serious competition if they and the audiences were totally honest. The industry is not just unfair...it has become downright corrupt. I do not blame the "stars" as they know no better...but the suits who have no taste or moral standards promote them should be ashamed of themselves.....but they do not care as long as the money rolls in they will keep putting up the monkeys and watch the punters adore them.

Thanks Samuel,

Well, who calls this a living LOL. Actually, I've been blessed to be able to do this. I don't make a lot of money by any standard, but between my wife and I we raised two kids and kept bread on the table. My income is more like a good part time sales job. The money fluctuates, sometimes pretty darn good, sometimes dismal, and there are no perks other than traveling around the world and playing the music itself.

So, what do I do? Well, I'll describe some of the things I've been doing the last few weeks.

I got to record upright bass for a rockabilly album with Jerry Foster at RCA Studio B. Jerry's a songwriter. As part of Foster and Rice, he's had cuts by Charley Pride, Louis Armstrong, Sonny and Cher, Hank Jr., Jerry Lee Lewis, Conway Twitty and Robert Goulet, to name a few. He's gotten 60 ASCAP awards and in 1974 he had ten songs on the charts at one time. We did a stripped down four piece rockabilly album, cut live at the studio where the likes of Elvis, Roy Orbison...well, here's info on the studio: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCA_Studio_B#List_of_artists_recorded
We did all the tracks in one day, then did some vocals the second day. It's being mixed now. Jerry's looking to get some bookings for the band once it's released.

On another day I did a live three hour radio show at B.B.King's with a fellow named Rich Armentrout. Rich is a blazing guitar player. We played a mixture of blues, southern rock, Buddy Miles, Zeppelin, stuff like that. I played electric bass. Another blues gig was Saturday with Roguie Ray LaMontagne and the Blue Hair Magnets. I play upright, but it's pretty hard Chicago style blues with serious blues harmonica, Roguie's been nominated five times for the W.C. Handy Award as blues harmonica player of the year.

Three nights a week this month, I play with our old country dance band, the Over the Hillbilly Band. Last week our guest was a popular Japanese pop singer, Kaori Mochida. She sang Tennessee Waltz in English and Japanese and was wonderful. Here's her webpage: http://avexnet.or.jp/mochida/index.html

Every Sunday I play bass for Nashville Cowboy Church. It's hosted by Joanne Cash Yates (Johnny's sister) and her husband Dr. Harry Yates. Last Sunday was my turn as a band member to do a song. I did "When the Rapture Comes" a song I wrote as an answer to Ray Strode who asked me if he could have my car when the rapture came: http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/904487/page/1#Post904487
We've had some great guests over the years.

Today, after church, there was a rehearsal for Bernadette, the Irish/Country singer. We'll be playing the Wilson County Fair tomorrow. Her Dobro player is my buddy Ferrell Stowe. Ferrell is a ten time Society for the Preservation of Bluegrass Music Dobro Player of the Year. He's..uh...pretty good. With Bernadette we play everything from Irish folks songs to modern country.

Wednesday, I'll be playing the Wilson County Fair with Jackie Kincaid and Steppin' Out. We're a fairly traditional bluegrass band. (Bob Cushing sent me a note to see if that was me, after watching us on a PBS broadcast of "Song of the Mountains," a show we did with Riders in the Sky.)

Last Sunday, I was hired to play bass and sing in the house band for Billy Robinson's birthday party. Billy plays steel without the pedals...not lap steel, it sits on legs. Billy used to play steel for the Grand Ole Opry. He is the last living musician from the Opry to have played with Hank Williams...not Jr. LOL. We had several hall of fame steel players there as well as Bob Moore. Bob's a wonderful guy. He's an upright bass player who played on many, many hits including "Crazy" and all the Patsy Cline hits. Needless to say, it was a thrill. I sang a lot of old country.

At home, I'm mixing an album for my friend Terry Blackwell. Terry recorded it years ago and we've transferred the tracks from the 24-track two inch reels. The songs are a mixture of country and rock tunes, things like "A Raindrop," "Handyman," and "Hey Girl." The Jordanaires sing backup on it, second time I've worked on a project with them this year. I'll be redoing some of the bass parts and maybe adding some guitar. Also, I've put guitar tracks down for Michael James Moore's Christian album. We'll be going to Dave Sign's studio Thursday with those tracks to add drums, bass, electric guitar and keyboard, then I'll bring it back home to put on a string quartet and some woodwinds.

Next week I'll be doing vocal production for a jazz singer from Califonia, Di Di Merlow. Mostly just sitting at the session listening and tweaking. I've already worked with her on her songs, tweaked some things and gave her some exercises. She's a natural. Then I'll be getting charts ready for a show with Bobby G. Rice and Little Jimmy Dickens. I hope I get to play with Mr. Dickens, I've been a big fan and admirer. He's overlooked (no pun intended) as being such a great country swing singer.

Anyway, that's the kind of stuff I do. Yes, it's continually adapting and learning that keeps me working.

It's true, on a rare night off I was flipping around the dial, and saw none other than Mike Dunbar on the national PBS station!

By the way, Bob, I saw your pal Chris Dunnett the other day. What a great guitar player. Missed you the last time you were here.

Chris was in Cincinnati with his girlfriend last night. They stopped into my gig. I bitched him out for not bringing his guitar!

Thanks for the props Scott. I never really figured my trials and tribulations in this business were inspirational. But it's nice to know they are.

There's actually a music industry ? I thought it died years ago ???

cheers, niteshift

Mike, wasn't Eddie Heinzelman playing on that session? He's from my area and was a part of our local NSAI chapter before heading to Nashville.

Hey Kevin,

Small world. That was, indeed, Eddie Heinzelman on the session at RCA. He did a wonderful job, had studied Scotty Moore. Also there was Mike Romeo on drums. Jerry Foster played rhythm and sang. The four of us had a great time.

I guess I'm on the other end of the spectrum; I make a full-time living from music (as well as creating sampled instruments, which is closely related) but I don't perform live at all. Years ago, when I first arrived at Drexel U for my Music Industry degree, I didn't think it would be possible for studio-only primarily electronic musicians. But I'm very happy to have proven myself wrong

Ditto what Jody said!

I'm a vocalist with a band set up under the office of our prime minister. But before that I was a songwriter/singer. I still write and perform as a solo artist.

Thankyou very much Sam,

Yes music is health But sometimes body health overtakes what you can do. And right now that's what's happening with me. I'm VERY proud that I was able to do so much and at a certain degree of level as well. And for as long as I have.

Being one who used to work HARD all day outside on the docks. Then after nine hours come home, take a shower drive for an hour into the city and play and record on record label paid sessions. Then drive home at one or two in the morning to find my roommate waiting in the dining room studio to work , write and record our own songs till four or five in the morning which I happily did NEVER saying NO...

Well I'm very glad today that I NEVER said No...

Thankyou!
Mike

Just a few minor transactions on the net for me.
None of the performers where I live I know of post in music sites.
Although some sign up as listeners.

Cyber space has definitely put a cog in the wheel.
But it still takes networking and coolads to find some ground.

"I'll start off with the founder Brian. Keep it going brother. Let's put a little something in his Christmas stocking this year- I know, you are probably Jewish, but you know what I mean.
I am impressed with the quality site you have managed to maintain all these years. It is a vehicle, and I would be walking not driving without it." -Samuel Harris

Hmmm... I wasn't aware that I was "probably Jewish" or where that idea might have come across exactly or why it would even be relevent in the first place? A very unusual comment to make. I must totally be missing something. I realize it was meant as a positive, but I don't think it came off the way you might have wanted it to exactly. Can you clarify?

As for folks who make a full time living it's funny you bring up the topic as I am writing a book and working on a broader project on the subject and have been conducting interviews and research for it since my strokes took me off the road. Even in this horrible economy, there's a lot of your peers who have found ways to make a real living making music. I am excited because I think the format is unlike any book on the market I've ever seen and the wider project will make it a living document, not just a quickly out of date tome. I was just about to post a notice about expanding the project to more people and this topic matches, so I will post it below at the bottom of this response.

There are more names that aren't on the list above, but I will say that all of the above are great examples that it CAN be done. How they find time to be on here as much as they are is miraculous and a luxury not shared by many of their peers. I am hoping to include some of them in the book and wider project as all are on my list of people to talk to (and I've already spoken with some of them). I scanned quickly through over 100 names on the left column that are full time artists, writers or industry pros (or combinations of all of the above) and who found time to post enough to show up on the list. I know hundreds more who make a substantial living off their music without every having a hit or being on a label, some of whom have posted a few times here but most who simply haven't had the time or inclination. I will say that FB has made it nearly impossible for touring musicians to have time to properly network with their peers. I had a long conversation recently about that very topic and how to solve the problem. As all of you regulars here know, there are a lot of subtle benefits to having friends who are peers like we have on these boards. I hope my project will open some communication lines for those involved and for our broader online portion of the JPF community.

Here's the note I was about to post:
---------------------------------------
If you make a full time living with your music (or via other people's music as an industry professional) I have a project I've been working on for nearly 2 years that I am ready to expand to more case studies. If you'd like to be involved, please send me an email to jpfolkspro@aol.com and explain who you are, what you do, where your income comes from (i.e. what sort of activities) and a little about your career to date (not pages and page, just a summary). In return, if you are chosen to participate, you'll gain some promotional benefit, some career advice and assistance and most importantly, some really excellent networking opportunities. I look forward to hearing from you! -Brian

I have been since about 2007 as my only job. Music is a great job, however, with a regular job, you eventually get to go home. In alot of peoples cases, the music business is one of those, if you're awake, you're probably working on something gigs. You will become a workaholic, but wouldn't everybody like to be a music workaholic? The reason I just had to be in the music business was, I would be at my jobs, thinking, I hate this job. I had to find a way out, and a way in. Luckily I found a way in. Hopefully it will stay that way for a while. With the daily changing business, nobody really knows how long we'll be here, or if we'll continue to find ways to get paid. The scary thing is, we do it anyway. Why not? You only live once. Music is my life, and I wouldn't have it any other way. I will say that it may seem to alot of people that music isn't a real job, and that there's no real work involved. I disagree. I have worked harder and more hours than I ever did at jobs people consider to be much tougher. I don't really think of music as a job though. It's a career. The difference? Well, you care about a career, and a job is just...a job. It's never like a day off...for me anyway. Even on days where I don't have much on my schedule, I find stuff to do. The music business is certainly not for people who can't keep up. It's not everybody's thing. I know somebody who was sure it was what they wanted to do, a few years later, they're out. There are lots of different jobs in the music business, and they all have different stress levels and working hours. Alot of people in the business here in Nashville work 9-5 like everybody else, they just get to do it in a cool field. I had trouble working at any other jobs too. I did what I could working at jobs, but they never were what I did best. Music is what some people just do. They don't know why, it just is. Alot of people find this type of work to be glamorous. It's work...trust me. It's just work with alot of amazing benefits

Yes I did. I remember video taping your performance. And in case she is reading, Bobby Gallup-thank you so much for Pinevest.

It's a smaller world than I thought because Marc Barnette was a guest speaker at one of the Fort Worth Songwriter's Association meetings a few years ago. I don't know if I talked to him afterwards but it was an insightful address.

And though I didn't meet Brian, I saw him at Pinevest too.

Sure, The Christmas stocking reference was a way of saying I think we should financially support this site if we can. After I posted my thread, I decided to put my money where my comments were and clicked donate-paypal option and typed in a figure, hit return and nothing happened. I tried again and basically it just kicked me out of paypal. So I went directly to my account to see if anything was transferred and it was empty. I will try again and/or you can check your link.

UP DATE: to donate you have to click "UPDATE TOTAL" even if it isn't actual an change from you original amount.

Oh, I probably wouldn't say it that way again but as I was writing "a little extra in his Christmas stocking", I thought to my self, well what if he is Jewish? He wouldn't celebrate Christmas. That's letting my thought process show. I have enough Jewish friends and acquaintances to know that they have absolutely no problem with Christmas so that wasn't necessary. In reality I have no idea if you are Jewish. And the only thing that made the idea cross my mind is that there are so many Jews in the creative arts and so many others who are innovative and high achievers.
So that is how my awkward attempt to thank you developed. Did I make it better or worse? Like many folks here I don't always edit what I write. A lot of what I write isn't relevant to anything except the thought that came before- think of my writing as a jazz player improvising-I'm not going to hit every riff perfectly.

That took way too long to explain. Remind me to leave out Christmas and Judaism from now on.

About the "donate" option on JPF

...It processed when I used my PC at work. I think the issue is that you have to click "UPDATE AMOUNT" even if you haven't changed anything.

I think if you write a book that shows how real people are making a living in Music, you will have revealed how others can go about making their own way in music- AND you can bust the myths of those who are unrealistic about where music will take them financially. I think it would be a book that would have to be updated every few years because the industry will not stand still.

I don't know if you have a large acquaintance with those in professional orchestras, but that is a serious group of professionals.

Until recently our campus radio station had a paid radio announcer who was knowledgeable of classical music. They fired her so I am wondering if the classical music commentator is a vanishing breed.

Every year at TCU we have the Van Cliburn international piano completion. All the folks who produce the concerts, the guys who tune the pianos, the ushers who seat people on an on are part of the music industry. It's just huge while it is happening. Somebody might not think that the young lady selling tickets is actually in the industry but she is enjoying the sound coming from the hall just like the person sitting in the audience.

I make my living from music, so far its been mostly in the minor leagues, playing guitar in clubs, bars, festivals, parties, weddings etc and teaching lessons, as well as some studio work. I love what I do and feel very blessed

ajlove

Go to this link at the top of "General" message forum. Brian, the founder of this site is collecting information about this topic.

http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/postlist/Board/2/page/1

"Do you make a full time living in music? Tell me all about it!"

I think is is working on a book.

I do. I shut down my law practice three years ago when Justice said she wanted to become a singer. That led to two cd's released for her and three more cd projects currently in progress for other singers. I have teamed up in cooperation with Sadson Music Group for these productions.

Tom

Tom, I listened to a few your daughter's songs. As she get older, the market changes drastically. A 12 or 13-year-old is going to have a completely different group of fans as a 16 and over fan base.

I just paid an attorney $2500 for a couple of hours of work so shutting down a law practice seems like a radical thing to do and it implies you are a full times promoter for your daughter. Is that the case?

Props to Andrew for actually being a Recording Artist! Not a lot of people can call that their occupation in 2011...at least not without a lot of supplemental work like mixing and producing, etc.

I'm someone who came darn close to full-on devotion to music as a career. What stopped me was love--I knew my bride was a keeper, and I really wanted kids...but I just couldn't make them live the mainly poor and unstable existence of a musician. I would have done it if I were a loner, because I don't really crave stability and comfort--I actually like a bit of wrangling and difficulty and travel. But it's not the way I wanted to raise a family, and I wanted that a lot more than my own wild enjoyments.

No regrets. But plenty of respect for those who threw their hat in the ring with eyes wide open. Every day is a rodeo for those who make their art their business.

The other problem with age is that the older potential audience members won't take a younger kid seriously when they talk about love, heartache, etc. And it is very hard to find subjects they can sing about authentically. The problem that has always existed is songs coming off too sophomoric (Disney) and being too age innapropriate. Along with the physical changes they go through, voice, body, attitudes.

So it is always a fine line. One of the things I have had to do is not take anyone under about 17 years old. For that reason. Just a harder slot to fill.

So if you are able to do it, my hats off to you.

MAB

I am involved with music as the founder of a music related website - which is my full-time job.

As a result I know lots of gigging musos. And I agree with much of what has already been said. The smoking ban and general decline of the bar scene has really damaged live music. In the UK there have also been laws passed fairly recently forcing bar owners to pay for special licenses to host live music. Crazy.

I also have to agree with Big Jim that there is probably more quality outside of the charts than in them. I come across amateur/indie singer-songwriters all the time who could have comfortably made a living from music a few decades ago.

My hope is for a backlash against 'manufactured' sounds, in the same kind of way we had a backlash against poor quality food and a resurgence in organic farming.