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Welcome to the Just Plain Folks forums! You are currently viewing our forums as a Guest which gives you limited access to most of our discussions and to other features.
By joining our free community you will have access to post and respond to topics, communicate privately with our users (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free; so please join our community today!
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I am a songwriter. I typically work from home using a small studio set up and have been fortunate enough to have written, co-written or produced many songs that have been commercially released. I am also the founder of Audio Rokit, which is a song submission platform helping bands and artists get their music heard by top industry professionals. www.audiorokit.co.ukI thought I could share some of my own personal song writing tips and tricks. These 10 rules have helped me and I hope that they help you also. Please feel free to add to my list! 1. Dont Be a PerfectionistWrite a LOT. Churn songs out, bin them and churn more out. Don’t be a perfectionist. The aim is to improve over time, not to sit down and craft the perfect pop song on your first attempt. By giving yourself the freedom to experiment without pressure you will develop the creative part of your brain instead of the over analytical part. Pop/Rock songwriter, Sting commented once that he finds it harder to write great songs now that he has become more analytical of music. 2. Get Feedback As Often As PossibleBe fearless with your songs. It’s OK if you write a crap song. What is not OK is to try and convince everyone that it’s a great song! Get feedback and allow people to be honest, that way you will start to learn what really works. 3. Hot and ColdI am talking about combining opposites such as spiccato and ligatto (short and long). When you have long held chords, try a shorter or snappier vocal line. Have a funky bass line? You might want to opt for a simpler, more solid guitar part. It’s simple stuff, but worth thinking about when writing or producing. 4. Learn to UnlearnAs we learn to write songs we naturally analyse what works and what doesn’t. We absorb new chord structures and develop an obsession for doing things the ‘correct’ way. This is great as far as improving song writing goes, but somewhere along the way you may lose the ability to invent something new. Don’t be afraid to break the rules. If it sounds good to you then do it! 5. The Disadvantage of TalentMichael Jordan is widely considered one of the greatest basketball players of all time. How did he get so good? He became the greatest because he failed more times than the next basketball player, not because he was the most talented. Raw talent can take someone 10% of the way to success, but hard work and determination make up the rest! The problem with naturally talented people is that they never learn failure and find it harder to accept defeat. People who are average (but with a desire to win) are in many ways better equipped to stay the course and succeed long term. 6. See the Bigger Picture AlwaysOnce you have the technical knowledge you need to write music, try and develop the part of your brain that can listen to and analyse the whole picture (instead of focusing on tiny details). You should be able to hear instantly what is needed to make your songs work. Does it need more emotion? More energy? Is the vocal melody boring? By focusing on the whole picture you’ll be able to find the answers quicker by being honest and brutal with yourself. 7. Say it DifferentlyWe all know that there are common lyrical themes in music. I would guess that the topic of ‘love’ is the most widely used lyrical theme. Using tried and tested themes can be a good thing, but you should always try and say it differently. For example, Dianne Warren said “Un-break my heart” instead of “Mend my heart”. She invented a new phrase to say the same thing a million other songs have said before and it worked perfectly! 8. Keep It SimpleI know so many musicians who agree that the best songs are the simplest, yet they can’t write simple songs themselves? It is a kind of ‘musicians curse’ to assume that complicated means better. Get used to writing simpler songs that have more hooks and adhere to common (natural) arrangement structures. Remember, you will hear the song over and over but your audience will have to ‘get’ it on the first listen. Keep it simple! 9. Work With OthersEven if you don’t like working with others, please try it. You’ll see that in many cases more heads really can be better than one. Working with others forces you to move away from your comfort zone and in my experience produces better songs. The process of getting input from more people during the writing process is healthy and makes it unlikely that you’ll write a real stinker! 10. Take Regular BreaksHave you ever worked on a song for 15 hours straight and been totally disappointed with the result? It’s happened to me many times! Doing anything creative can lead you down a rabbit hole of endless ideas that (if no breaks are taken) can spiral into complex introverted expression. In other words, take a bloody break and come back with fresh ears!
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Good advice. Thank you.
Joe
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Darren,
A good list. A couple are new to me. Others were a good reminder.
Thanks
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Hello Darren
welcome to JPF
checked out the website for your song submission service.......it doesnt list any specific placements for songs by your members.....and you dont even list your own songwriting credits......why would anyone want to join a service and pay your submission fees without proof of a track record of credits and placements?
Tom
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Don't know who you are but those are pretty good rules. Fairly standard but it never hurts to hear them again.
MAB
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Welcome Darren:
Glad to have an opportunity to read your well presented thoughts. I hope you'll post here often and enjoy all the topics and humor we often share.
Dave
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I didn't understand the audiorokit website - some of the advice and info seems a bit strange - http://audiorokit.co.uk/pages/copyright-noticeDan
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"We require that you have at least sent your song to yourself via recorded delivery, and that you keep that mail unopened before uploading your music to AudioRokit. We take all reasonable steps to ensure the safety of our members and to prevent copyright theft, however ultimately it is your responsibly to copyright your music properly." - http://audiorokit.co.uk/pages/copyright-noticeDarren, you may have a legitimate product, but your mere suggestion that it is acceptable to use the "Poor Man's Copyright" should be enough to discourage any professional from using your service.
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It's a boilerplate of predicatable "rules" which, if followed 100% probably wouldn't get you any closer to that elusive hit song than the 20th song Marc co-wrote with his writer meetings in the past months. (Actually I just tossed Marc in there, I have no idea if he's actively writing that much currently). Point being that rules are only helpful to rank amateurs most of the time. If you are writing with your eyes on a list of rules rather than from the heart and experience gained from honing your skills in Nashville or on this board etc. then I doubt you're going to write much of anything. If writing a good song was as simple as following a list of 10 things, everyone would be writing hits right?
I don't know if it was spam (hope not) but I do know that he took a major hit to his credibility with the lame "poor mans copyright" nonsense. Thats really weak. Perhaps he'll stick around and actually learn something here.
Brian
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@gmail.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney "It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..." -Brian Austin Whitney "Sometimes all you have to do to inspire humans to greatness is to give them a reason and opportunity to do something great." -Brian Austin Whitney
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I wish people would spend time on a site and follow their own advice. Clearly he hasn't followed the 10 rules for better business!
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Hi guys, Thank you for your comments. I would like to respond to each person who raised a good point. @WriterTomYeager Audio Rokit launched in December so we're a very young business. We have had many people sign deals and get songs placed. We have a testimonial page here http://audiorokit.co.uk/testimonials I would like to receive more detailed feedback from members who are getting specific song placement and so we're going to start asking for feedback from those people who have been successful on our site. Honestly it's frustrating sometimes. I spoke with a well established record label two days ago because we noticed they hadn't reviewed their applicants. They said that they were in the process of signing an Audio Rokit member. Why did neither the label or the artist let us know! I am sure there are many more people signing deals than we know about. As for my song writing credits, I have done so much over the years and most is in the pop field. I didn't provide any examples because I expect people will say my writing is terrible! Probably the most successful was a song I co-wrote a few years back called Love Paradox: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdgxajLxPdY I also wrote the music for a Nintendo TV advert: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJlWW_oCHyc I wrote a song on the Imagine Girl band album: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Imagine-Girl-Band-Nintendo-DS/dp/B001AMGOG6 and lots of other songs .. I am still trying to write that big hit though! There are some incredible writers out there and I am always learning and improving. That is what I love about writing, it's something that you can do for the rest of your life. That is also why I invited people to add their own tips to the list. @Dan Tindall I didn't understand the audiorokit website - some of the advice and info seems a bit strange - http://audiorokit.co.uk/pages/copyright-noticeThanks Dan. I put that page up a while ago and I see what you mean, it was a little confussing. I have simplified it and updated that page. In fact, that copyright page that was questioned by a few of you guys (Kevin Edward Rose, Brian Austin Whitney). You refer to the "Poor Man's Copyright", which I suppose it is! I had an experience where a friend of mine went to court because a song he had written went top 10 in the UK and someone else claimed to have written it. The other guy had indeed done the "Poor Man's Copyright"and would have won the court case had it not been for the fact my mate had the DATA files. This is a story that stood out to me. So, whilst I agree with you that the "Poor Man's Copyright" is extremely basic, I thought I would mention it to my members. "Poor Man's Copyright" should be enough to discourage any professional from using your service. That seems very disproportionate. You would use Audio Rokit to connect your music with industry professionals, not to learn about copyright. If you don't like the copyright advice then that's fine but why shut yourself off from all the great opportunities we have gathered? @Brian Austin Whitney If writing a good song was as simple as following a list of 10 things, everyone would be writing hits right? You are quite right. My list was only meant to be something to make you think and possible help in a small way. I would not suggest that anyone can write a hit song using a set of rules, otherwise I would have called the Blog "10 rules for writing a guaranteed hit song". “Perhaps he'll stick around and actually learn something here.” I certainly will stick around. JPFolks looks great but I am sure you will put my business (Audio Rokit) down, Brian because it's a song pitching service and you only promote TAXI right! But, I am sure I will learn a lot from your community and I am not one to back out of a good discussion on music. @Brian I wish people would spend time on a site and follow their own advice. Clearly he hasn't followed the 10 rules for better business! Can you elaborate? Not sure what you mean here?
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Darren: The "poor man's copyright" has no standing in the US. And yes, if you are incorrect on a simple point like that, it does tend to cast a shadow on everything else you do. You are in a business of pitching and promoting and you don't even understand the copyright laws? Not a good start!
I watched the first video -- fine pop fare. Nothing wrong with that at all and it's a pretty good video. She's a hot little number.
I thought your 10 rules were a good read, thanks for sharing.
Kevin
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Kevin, thanks for your thoughts. "The "poor man's copyright" has no standing in the US." We're based in the UK and the information came from a real life example (here in the UK) with a friend of mine. However, I will definitely get this looked into and update the page. "You are in a business of pitching and promoting and you don't even understand the copyright laws" We work a little differently. We don't have anything to do with our members copyright, promoting, critiquing or anything else. Our job is to simply call hundreds of publishers, managers, record labels (and more) every week and tell our members what opportunities are out there. We also make it very easy for our members to search these opportunities and submit music with a single click, using our internal pitching system. We don't take a cut or deal with contracts, Audio Rokit is a platform for making the initial connection between musician and industry. That is all. We do, however, actively follow up on song submissions to make sure our members are getting satisfactory feedback. The industry professionals that list with us only place a listing if they are actively looking for new music or talent. Each month they are required to confirm that they are still seeking new music or their listing is removed. Audio Rokit is a simple, inexpensive solution to a problem that I had as a songwriter. We are not music lawyers and don't claim to be. But, I thank you for your input. I will make sure the copyright advice page is updated with US law also and revisit that page entirely. And Kevin, thank you for your feedback on my song and yes, she is a hottie! I didn't get to meet her though
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Morning, Darren:
Glad we didn't "scare you away" with all our negativity. All too often, we get posts from "one-shot-Johnnys" who never return and just use the site for spamming. Your credibility was significantly enhanced because you had the courage to return and reply to all our comments... negative and positive.
Of course the poor man's copyright may not apply everywhere (especially the USA) but it should. My belief is that slick lawyers (Barristers to you) simply got some crooked judge to lay it aside on behalf of the "spend your money and get little in return, copyright establishment."
No matter how a song is copyrighted, whether or not it will be upheld in a court of law is the only real test of validity... and I hope none of us have to endure that expensive process. The law in the US has been twisted and it no longer works well for those with few resources. (What else is new... LOL!)
Sorry for the rant!
Regardless, my welcome to you is extended again. Best of luck with your musical endeavors.
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Of course the poor man's copyright may not apply everywhere (especially the USA) but it should. My belief is that slick lawyers (Barristers to you) simply got some crooked judge to lay it aside ....
... The law in the US has been twisted and it no longer works well for those with few resources. (What else is new... LOL!)
The poor man's copyright doesn't hold up because it is easily manipulated. Plus, You can't sue in the U.S. federal courts for copyright infringement without the song being registered with the LOC. All lawsuits are very expensive. It has always been a supreme battle to get the "law" to work out well for those without "resources". Kevin
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Dave: Thank you for your insightful thoughts. It's constructive comments like yours that make me want to come back and participate.
Kevin: You are absolutely correct. In fact, I have just spoken to two companies who specialise in UK entertainment law. It seems that my copyright advice was 100% correct (where UK citizens are concerned). The US is a completely different story.
We're a UK based company but we have started to add more and more US music opportunities and job leads. As such, I am seeking further copyright advice to reflect this.
Brian Austin Whitney: You said: "I do know that he took a major hit to his credibility with the lame "poor mans copyright" nonsense. Perhaps he'll stick around and actually learn something here."
May I now (respectfully) point out that perhaps you have learned something here. The so called "poor mans copyright" is indeed a valid copyright method in the UK, albeit a basic one.
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Hey Darren, Welcome to the "Old Fart Carmudgeon Club"...... Yeah, I lot of the membership is, well..... um, lets say, over 40, so they've seen a lot in all those years. There's the old model, and something referred to as the "new business model" which has been discussed at great length here. The New Business Model simply states that that the performer pays to play. Some agree it's a valid expense, others vemenantly disagree and find the whole thing a total scam. Either way, success can be found down a lot of roads, it's just avoiding the quicksand filled potholes along the way that is the trick. I checked out your site, and it sounds simple and effective, although it's competing with a hundred or more that do the same thing. I'll only ask one question....... How do you see the scenario, when there are 10,000 sellers for every 1 buyer of music ..... a goldmine for the "new business model" artist ( who is wiling to pay to play ), or another blind ally into which to toss a few dollars ? It's not a trick question, just a starter for discussion..... Anyways, welcome and I hope you can add aome insightful views on the current musical game plan in Mother England. cheers, niteshift PS - Taxi sponsor this site without strings. You'll see reviews, both good and bad, and their business model is freely discussed, as are others.
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Darren, Welcome to JPF.
Here's what you do. Send yourself an empty envelope, unsealed, and then keep it in a drawer. Then in a few years, take it out, make a cd of the top ten songs that week, put it in the envelope and seal it. Then take it to court. That's why it doesn't work here. I guess you guys in the U.K. are more forgiving.
Thanks to Brian Austin Whitney for the scenario.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash It's only music. -niteshift Mike Dunbar Music
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I have read some UK publications. The best thing said about the "poor man's copyright" is that "it may be of some use" -- which is a mighty weak endorsement. I would assume that mailing yourself something would not work if push comes to shove in the UK courts.
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Welcome Darren - I never knew it was so rockin' in Eastbourne It doesn't do any harm to re-iterate good advice - thanks
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niteshift: You raise an important question regarding 'Pay-to-Play' and one that I can answer passionately.
About 4 years ago I was producing music for an artist who openly told me that he made 950 UK pounds by listing an opportunity on a large US pitching site. He said he was going to do it again but didn't actually need to find music.
What he didn't know is that I was a member of this particular website and paying a membership fee to submit my music to the so called 'industry professionals' they had.
This disgusted me and I lost my innocence with regards to these models. I wanted to create a platform that could not be so easily exploited.
I started to investigate how the 'Pay-to-Play' models worked. The more I looked into it, the more inherent flaws I found in them.
Some pitching companies will charge applicants for each submission they make and pay a portion (or all) of that submission fee to the industry professional. That is the achilles heel in these models.
It's clear that the industry professional "could" in theory use the submission fees as a revenue stream and not actually be looking for new music. That is not acceptable to me.
Audio Rokit does not pay the industry professionals who list on our site. It means we have less scope for doing deals, it's harder to get listings and less money is made, but I am more interested in growing something of value and integrity for our members.
We currently charge less than £10/month to be a full member. After becoming a full member all your individual song submissions are free. We use all the money generated to pay for countless hours spend calling industry professionals, vetting industry professionals and developing/improving the website.
Please let me be clear, I am not saying all pitching sites who pay the industry professionals are bad. Maybe I met the only scum-bag who pretended to be an industry professional, although I doubt it.
Some pitching sites I've used do a great job and have very good intentions. It's sad that musicians can't make money more easily from their music, but that is just a basic fact of economics and overcrowding in a market place. My strong opinion is that musician should be treated fairly and not charged the earth to attempt to get their music heard.
Sorry, I could go on and on with this subject!
16.10PM
I am editing this message because my partner Dave just showed me yet another example that I wanted to share with you.
One of the record labels that we contacted today told us that they are NOT looking for any new artists. However, we also noticed that they have just placed a listing with one of our competitors websites charging $12 per submission.
What does this tell you? It tells me that they are listing to raise money. I don't care if this makes me unpopular, I feel musicians need to be aware of this type of activity, even if it's rare, it does happen.
Last edited by darren-audio; 07/27/11 02:15 PM.
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Kevin Emmrich:
You may be right. All I know is that my friend was in court and he DID NOT do the "poor man's copyright", whereas the other guy did. My friend, Anthony, was told he needs to get more evidence to support his claim that he wrote the song or he'll lose.
Luckily he had the DATA files.
Conclusion: if two people are telling the same story and one has done the "poor man's copyright", and the other has not, the one that has might have a slight edge. But, like I've said, I am no expert and I agree that the "poor man's copyright" is extremely basic. I do know that the law is so damn complicated that there are exceptions to every rule!
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Welcome Darren - I never knew it was so rockin' in Eastbourne It doesn't do any harm to re-iterate good advice - thanks I recently moved from London to Eastbourne for a quieter life! I lived in London for 17 years. I must say, it's nice living by the sea, even if it's freezing all the time!
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Hi darren,
Welcome to the site. The Music Business may not be in First Place but it is way ahead of whatever is in Second place! Now that we have gotten that out of the way let's discuss Copyright, or more to the point, Registering a Copyright.
The "Poor man's Copyright has been regarded as no good for all practical purposes so while it may succeed once in a while you wouldn't want to depend on it.
The nice thing about Registering a Copyright, if you so desire is the U.S. Copyright Office can be used by anyone, no matter what Country you reside in.
And, a Registration is recognized in all countries that signed the Berne Agreement. You can look it up.
To be sure, the only time you would take a Case to Court is if there was big money involved. And a problem may not show up for many years so having that Registration gives you a leg up in any Court Case. Of course if one has plenty of evidence to present in a court it always helps.
Some people write tons of songs so registering them all may be prohibitive so you have to be selective. And in 99 percent of the cases a song is not going to make it anyway so the decision is up the the writer.
Welcome to JP Folks and the Three Ringed Circus!
Ray E. Strode
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thanks very much Darren
appreciate you taking the time and having the guts to respond to our concerns..I didnt mean to welcome you with a blackjack-based on what you yourself said there are obviously alot of pay to play scams and dead ends in the biz.....and in my 6 years in Nashville I have seen alot of companies that prosper simply by seperating dreamers from their money.....I give you due credit for having spent 17 years in London in the music business-that was one of my concerns-I wondered how someone in a small town in England could do any good for writers who usually find it neccessary to move to a major music center and run the gauntlet of the tens of thousands of writers and performers who are already there......speaking of Nashville-most folks only last a year or two here before going home with only a very expensive t-shirt for the time and money spent......so again congrats for enduring the London scene for all the time you did-and getting a few songwriting credits in that very competitive music center...good luck with your new business.....theres alot of great talent in our English friends and you seem very sincere in your desire to help people get their music heard......we all know what a tough business it is and you have indeed earned your time in a tranquil town by the sea......I envy you.......I myself am often tempted to run screaming into the woods and leave this town behind-but God help me Nashville is starting to make sense to me.....congratulations on your successful escape from London. leaving with your sanity and integrity intact says alot for you and I wish you well in your efforts to help your members seperate the real opportunities from the smoke and mirrors in the business,,,,
Tom
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Appreciate the heads-up, Tom. I guess I was successful in Nashville, then--I made it back with my bank account mostly intact, and I got the T-shirt for cheap.
Joe
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good for you Joe
you are very talented indeed and your Nashville days do-I am sure-provide lots of stories for your kids and grandkids......
Tom
Last edited by WriterTomYeager; 07/27/11 05:39 PM.
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Ray E. Strode: Thanks for the advice buddy. I'm going to read up about the U.S. Copyright Office tomorrow.
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thanks very much Darren
appreciate you taking the time and having the guts to respond to our concerns..I give you due credit for having spent 17 years in London in the music business-that was one of my concerns-I wondered how someone in a small town in England could do any good for writers... Tom I totally understand. I can assure you I am authentic and a 'real' musician. In fact, something I haven't mentioned is that my main instrument is drums. I moved to London when I just turned 18 and totalled roughly 2000 gigs in 17 years! I toured the world and made a living from being a session drummer for many (tough) years. Thank you Tom for recognising that I have worked hard, I know many musicians have worked super hard and it's nice when someone says well done. I also went through 2 years of working as A&R and developing acts, which in a round-a-bout way lead me to Audio Rokit. It's been a long career and I deeply respect hard working musicians because learning to be a great songwriter or musician is only the start of the journey.
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Darren, Well, as I said "spam" and nothing else, you have done what many other similar first posters don;t do: RETURN and face the fire! Very cool of you to keep your cool too. Not Spam then! Just smelled like something odd was cooking. But the cleaning crew came in and, with you leading the way,,,cleared up the burning odors! Thank you for respecting this site's members by answering each one of them on their points. Refreshing! Welcome! (I'm half limey, if that helps to forgive me) Johnny
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Darren, Well, as I said "spam" and nothing else, you have done what many other similar first posters don;t do: RETURN and face the fire! Very cool of you to keep your cool too. Not Spam then! Just smelled like something odd was cooking. But the cleaning crew came in and, with you leading the way,,,cleared up the burning odors! Thank you for respecting this site's members by answering each one of them on their points. Refreshing! Welcome! (I'm half limey, if that helps to forgive me) Johnny No problem, thank you for recognising it's not spam! I checked out your music and see you've been playing for 50 years - respect for that!
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Now that we've established that Darren is okay, I'll move over and open a spot for him to sit 'round the fire with the rest of us....
Welcome, Darren. Nice to meet you!
"Where there's a Gill, there's a way"
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Hey Darren,
Well, ain't that the truth !
I really don't know which of the current models is going to win out in the end, but one thing that I do know, is that those who are not transparent will eventually get their combined asses kicked right out onto the street.
As you can gather, we've had every type of snake oil salesman on this site before. Some were entertaining in a sad sort of way. Some have been been abrasive, and others just downright insulting to a large membership which is just a little long in the tooth to take crap from the dreamweavers.
Heck, there's at least one guy here who still records on 2 inch tape ! ( What's that ? say the young folks LOL )
So again welcome, and it's refreshing to see your straight foward approach.
If I were to add anything to your site, rather than concentrating on the 10 songwriting tips, it may be more helpful to put out a list of 10 Tips to Pitching
Is the song in genre ?, right tempo ?, broadcast quality ? fits exactly the criteria of the request. I found that was one things I really had to learn well when first submitting to an anonymous interent request.
Best of luck.
cheers, niteshift
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Brian said,
"It's a boilerplate of predicatable "rules" which, if followed 100% probably wouldn't get you any closer to that elusive hit song than the 20th song Marc co-wrote with his writer meetings in the past months. (Actually I just tossed Marc in there, I have no idea if he's actively writing that much currently"
Actually Brian it was 2 1/2 yeaterday, 7 last week, 26 for the month, 129 for the year so far. But that is what I am paid to do so I hope I am doing it right.
The rules included here are pretty standard, kind of like "If you are going to get on the (American) football field with a professional team, you better have pads, a helment, know the formations and where your end zone is." They are the basic ground information.
Darren mentions that "if everyone was doing it everyone would be writing hits, right?" Yes and no Darren. There are quite simply millions and millions of songwriters and billions of songs out there. In Nashville alone, before this day is out, 500-1000 will be written, many of those by people with HUGE current chart success. And only a fraction of those will actually get a hearing even though they obey and surpass everyone of these rules.
Songwriting is a craft and a great deal of luck. No one rule or guideline, book, course, effort, song or recording ensure anything other than you are on the playing field. Rules are broken every day although the one's you list are always followed if you have any common sense.
I don't know what your business is and hope you do well if it is a quality product. Word of mouth will do everything both ways. Good and bad. If you have a good product and treat people well, you will do fine. If you don't,... well ,that will come out too.
On the "poor man's copyright" it has been routinely discredited here in courts over and over and is tossed out with great regularity. In the UK it may be more acceptable, I don't know. But I do know that in the UK the "loser" Pays all legal fees and court costs of anything thrown out. So this might force people to think a little longer before they engage in the practice of copyright lawsuits. They are VERY hard to prove and even harder to win.
Good luck in your efforts and welcome to JPF.
MAB
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Brian said,
"Darren mentions that "if everyone was doing it everyone would be writing hits, right?"
That wasn't me, that was Brian who said that in his first comment to me. I think Brian thought my 10 song writing suggestions were meant to be some sort of guarantee on how to write a hit song, which of course would be ludicrous! I think you summed it up in your first comment Marc when you said, "Fairly standard but it never hurts to hear them again." I agree, sometimes it's the common sense, obvious stuff that get's overlooked .. but then again maybe that's just me! Brian said,
I don't know what your business is and hope you do well if it is a quality product.
Thank you sir! This explains Audio Rokit: https://s3.amazonaws.com/audiorokit-ebooks/Audio+Rokit+for+Musicians.pdfIf my 10 song writing tips were a little bland, my apologies. I was hoping you guys would add some but no worries. I am actually better at producing than song writing (sadly). I have made a living from producing for many years and have gotten pretty good at it A few years ago I would meet artists like Kevin Little ( http://www.kevinlyttle.com) in their hotel room and write and produce on the spot in the middle of a tour (those were the days!) Do you guys produce?
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Hey Darren,
Yep, like you, I love that ( producing ) over song writing.
It's the damn air-con, keeps me sane.
There's quite a few producers here. Not similar however, to the rap/dance producers, if they can call themselves that. More, studio/live kinda stuff.
That doesn't mean that you can't get a wicked drum map, or a programmed sound, if you asked for it. Just that I think, more are into a natural studio sound.
I've gone retro, from a keys player/programmer, back into the musician actually playing the sound.
Full circle, I guess.
cheers, niteshift
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Darren, This is from the first page on your web site: "Are You a Songwriter? Submit your music to top recording artists, publishers & film/TV." - http://audiorokit.co.uk/Between these lines are pictures of singers and musicians such as Lady Gaga, Britney Spears, and several others. Are you actually saying the you can guarantee that all of the artists pictured will listen to songs submitted through your service?
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Hi Darren, Nice to read that you engage so vividly in discussion. I just wanted to direct your attention to ISA, which is UK based. http://www.songwriters-guild.co.uk/services.htm#copyright For 50£ a year, members can copyright all the songs they want for free, among other great services. I did some research on the overseas differences in copyright rules a while ago, and while the copyright law is International, the US Copyright law is the most detailed in the world. Kevin is right that you can't get help from the US law system to fund your copyright claims, if you don't have the works registered with the US copyright office. Even though you can win a copyright infringement lawsuit based on the International copyright law, you probably won't be able to make further damage claims towards the violator. The poor man's copyright is equally fragile in a court of law here as it is in the US. Music industry law is a highly specialized field, and there seems to be fewer who has knowledge about it in Europe, than in the US. Call is naïve, if you like. The US is also the biggest music mrkt. in the world, and the legal system is full of scammers, so maybe that explains why the Americans knows their way around it. The US Copyright office has an amazing website, but the most enlightnening and most often referred to section is probably Chapter 1, section 101 (the definitions): http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.pdfAlso check out the entry for "sound recordings" in the forms section, that can be used as templates for many a collaboration agreement, work-for-hire agreement ect.: http://www.copyright.gov/forms/ Anyway, good luck with your endeaveurs. Lots of sound advice, hope to see you around to qualify the discussions around here even further.
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Darren, "Are You a Songwriter? Submit your music to top recording artists, publishers & film/TV." http://audiorokit.co.uk/ Between these lines are pictures of singers and musicians such as Lady Gaga, Britney Spears, and several others. Are you actually saying the you can guarantee that all of the artists pictured will listen to songs submitted through your service? People who have worked with those artists have listed with us, either the label looking for new acts, manager looking for songs and so on. It's just a way to show that we're mixing in good circles. We've been experiencing a tough time getting permission to show faces. Some of the biggest labels we have using our site won't let us use their logo because we're still too new as a company. I suppose that is understandable but I am looking forward to when they start to relax and realise that we're not a fly-by-night company. Regards to "guarantees". When you submit music to anyone on Audio Rokit, you are basically auditioning for something (to be signed or to get a song placement etc). We CAN guarantee that you will get notified whether your music is successful or not within 8 weeks (usually much less). We also guarantee that we have no scammers on our site. We know this because we don't pay the industry reps to list with us, they do it purely because they are on the hunt for new music for their project(s). We 'might' introduce a facility one day that allows musicians to pay for a song critique because I can see that takes up A&R time and is a type of service they would provide. However, that is separate from the core business. I do not want to charge musicians for pitching to an "opportunity". Expecting musicians to pay $30 (or even $10) each time they submit a song is ridiculous and harmful to the industry.
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the songcabinet: As usual you guys have some great advice. Thanks for the links, they look very helpful, I really appreciate it. US is the biggest market and deservingly, somehow you guys do music better than anyone else! My cousin is an awesome drummer, Steve Ferrone and he used to play for The Average White Band back in the day. I definitely felt that as soon as they went over to the US to work with Arif Mardin they stepped up a gear. I have recorded in the US and wrote a Blog about it called Reminiscing About The Strokes I also see you're from Denmark. I gigged their once and was amazed at how clean the streets were. I know you guys pay high taxes but it definitely shows. Lovely place!
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Thanks Darren, you have some really interesting stories to tell! Denmark is nice, but so is the UK, I think. I'm really fond of London, which is almost just an hours travel away from my location. Steve Ferrone is awesome! He actually plays on some of my tracks (I bought his midi loops http://www.platinumsamples.com/ps/SteveFerroneGrooves.php .. Lol). Something to contemplate about in your blog, for sure. Sometimes it's as simple as meeting the right people and build a creative relationship that makes all the difference, I think. Bands like The Strokes and many others are in favourable circumstances for that, I think. Way harder for us DIY guys, but underscores once more why collaboration is King. Happy hitmaking!
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He'll be happy to hear that! I'm hoping to catch up with him this month as he's playing with Mark Knopfler in Brighton (near me) so that should be a great gig!
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Thanks Darren and welcome!
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hi darren, only one nit ...'staccato' and 'legato', not 'spiccato' and 'ligatto' ! ciao!
... (it's not that i'm snob, is that i'm italian - welcome!)
Last edited by MaxG; 09/23/11 05:39 AM.
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