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You want to be a songwriter? Don't worry about writing great songs. Never mind about great songs not making it. Don't spend any money on demos. Don't worry about the "evil" music business that conspires to keep out good writers. Put away your checkbooks, take off your tinfoil hats, stop spending your time daydreaming and WRITE A GOOD SONG.

My basic rules for a good song are that it be understandable, interesting, memorable and convey feelings. It has to have all four. Being understandable does not mean you can't have nonsense lyrics or deep hidden lyrics. That is "undestandably" your intention. We all know that Don McLean's "American Pie" or many of Dylan's songs are deep and subject to interpretation, but if you're writing a basic story song, don't lose the listener. The rest of the rules should speak for themselves.

As for the mechanics? Read John Braneny's book, "The Craft and Business of Songwriting," read other books, read online. Learn about meter, learn about music theory, learn how to analyze songs, analyze songs you like and figure out why you like them.

Until then: STOP. Spend no money, have no arguments, don't try to analyze the music business. Go no further until you are writing good songs.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
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Go no further until you are writing good songs.

Good advice Mike. People are not always the best judge of their own efforts. We tend to judge ourselves by our intentions, and others by their results. When folks go through a creative process, it's hard not to think the result must be 'good'. After all, they were doing their best and surely others can see that and appreciate the effort.
That may be the idea behind why some writers say, just write and write a lot. One gets through a lot of junk writing and eventually a good one comes out of the process. I think Gershwin said he shot for 15 a day.
Learning the difference between 'good' and 'average' is an important lesson that some will never get. The cruelest lie of all is the one we tell ourselves.

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Mike, That's a good reminder. Learning to write a good song is sound advice. But it's surprising how often people overlook the obvious, how often they miss the forest for the trees. I'm not sure how much can be learned and how much is a natural instinct and God-given talent. But study, practice and hard work are always needed to go along with whatever talent for writing you have.


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I believe the average person can learn to write a good song, but may never write a "great" one. I believe most people can learn to judge their own work, some may need therapy to do it, some may never be able to.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
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http://garyewer.wordpress.com/


To help put Mike's advice to work...

just found this site a few minutes ago when I was looking for info on changing keys in a song



If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

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Mike,

That is a good reminder.

John,

That Gary Ewer site is very informative.

Thanks


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

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Learning anything is all about self improvement and learning as you go from your and others mistakes. You need to walk before you can run. Learning to walk usually involves crawling first and much falling over. Do not stop learning because of the fear that you might fall over. Remember anyone who has never made a mistake has never made anything.
I would say spend time and money on your music, make demos and all the other things folk do. Just remember that it is all part of the learning curve. OK in all probability it will not make you rich or famous but it will give you satisfaction and a sense of achievement. It will broaden horizons, give you great skills and a great hobby. Along the way you will also meet lots of new friends.

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"We tend to judge ourselves by our intentions, and others by their results." -Daddio

Brilliant!


And as always sage advice from Mike. = )

Brian


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Originally Posted by Mike Dunbar
I believe the average person can learn to write a good song, but may never write a "great" one. I believe most people can learn to judge their own work, some may need therapy to do it, some may never be able to.


Great post and super sound advice smile

Sometimes no matter what some folks cant get it in perspective, especially guys I find even more so. smile This has alot to do with music being so subjective, which is both the good thing and the bad thing.

To those I simply take away the subjective by comparing it completely to the sport of boxing. Where you CANT say, We'll I think I'm a good fighter, and my family and friends tell me I'm such a good fighter" "And I got 10 Million hits on you tube...

You can have ALL that with your music and still be weak, if you were in the ring instead you'd be knocked out cold and some even knocked out dead. This would retire you from the business and the dream is over.
Start with having a solid foundation. The basics!!! Just like a fighter you can have hype and spend money and advertise and worry about being a champ someday.. but you cant do nothing without the basics and a strong foundation.

In the ring you get EXPOSED in matter of seconds, some may make it a round or two. That depends on the depth of your talent and your drive.
Music can be this way for some people, like Mike said they're worried about getting a hit song and being successful and doing this and that instead of just "Writing a good song first" being strong on all those four basic points.

The only difference is with music we keep coming back for more because nobody has broken our jaw,nose and rearranged our face. LOL Just the heartbreak, and you have to put REAL work in to get that even. smile


Thanks!
Peace Mike
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I agree totally, Mike.

Using your analogy, don't get in the ring until you learn how to fight. You've got to build strength (learn the basics), stamina (internalize the basics in practice...make them repeatable), skill (be fluent in using the basics), and style (give a personal touch to your work). Then you can worry about competing in the arena.

The whole thing about write, write, write, came from people who, for the most part, had classical educations in their field. Ernest Hemingway, Mark Twain, Ring Lardner, Stephen Crane, Sinclair Lewis all worked as journalists. They read and analyzed the works of others. They knew the classics. How many folks who want to be "country" songwriters can describe the difference between a Texas and a Bakersfield swing? How many could explain the Cajun/Zydeco influence, or what 70's bands are being copied in modern country? How many know what chiaroscuro is? an anapest? Or foreshadowing? But many, instead, will write and ask their fellow beginning writers for a crit..."Gosh, that's a hit. You need to get it to Kenny Chesney." smile


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

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Aw Yes,
To be or not to be, that is the question. NOW how does one decide he has written a good song? I wish I knew. The best you can do is write and write and write. When you have something you think is good send it out. Others will let you know, (OR NOT), if the song is any good.


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Well, Ray, I don't know how other folks judge what is a good song. I look for those four things I mentioned above: "My basic rules for a good song are that it be understandable, interesting, memorable and convey feelings. It has to have all four. Being understandable does not mean you can't have nonsense lyrics or deep hidden lyrics. That is "undestandably" your intention. We all know that Don McLean's "American Pie" or many of Dylan's songs are deep and subject to interpretation, but if you're writing a basic story song, don't lose the listener. The rest of the rules should speak for themselves."

Again, that does not mean it is a great song, or even a pitchable song in one of today's markets. Just that it's a good song.

And, to continue from above. I don't believe everybody needs a classical education to write a good song. Some folks come by it naturally, they were educated by a parent who was a good storyteller or who read to them a lot. They might have been devoted listeners to music and simply internalized a feel for what works. But for those of us who weren't lucky enough to be natural songwriters, we have to work at it. It doesn't happen by writing, writing, writing. It happens by working toward improving, working toward improving, working toward improving.

Again there are many resources that are designed to help the songwriter improve. As a good friend says, "The hardest part is starting."


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

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Originally Posted by Ray E. Strode
Aw Yes,
To be or not to be, that is the question. NOW how does one decide he has written a good song? I wish I knew. The best you can do is write and write and write. When you have something you think is good send it out. Others will let you know, (OR NOT), if the song is any good.


Also on top of what Mike said, I feel if you CAN write & write do not stop keep writing. The only thing is for some that means writing more songs, different songs. So time and energy, ideas and MOST of all inspiration is spent on them. In some cases I fear wasted on them sometimes.

Take all of those things all of that time and effort and place it into ONE song instead of 10 or 20 songs. One great song or GOOD song verses 20 okay ones.
Recently I was told, I heard your music and every song was a winner, they were all different and anyone of them could do well,
do you have more?

Answer - No! smile

Even the best in history have these windows of inspiration, some have it for one year others a decade, others the rarest ones make it two, three decades. It wasn't always that they wrote countless amounts of songs and only picked the best ones to put out. They couldn't have the time to do that. Everything they were doing was the best they could do, it was ALL inspired and then really crafted. The period or periods were the talent you are born with (you have or you don't) finds the inspiration and they introduce themselves to Mr. Hard Work! smile

Mr. Hard Work lol My mind is still in the second grade lol
Class is dismissed children smile


Thanks!
Peace Mike
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Originally Posted by Mike Caro Substudio
... Take all of those things all of that time and effort and place it into ONE song instead of 10 or 20 songs. One great song or GOOD song versus 20 okay ones.

I got a little bit of a chuckle on this one. I don't think we can say "OK, let me not waste anytime and just write a good one!". It doesn't work that way. We have to write those 20 songs and maybe one or two of them (or 4 or 5) rise to the top to become "good songs" (maybe). For me, a bad song takes about the same initial effort as a good one.

That's why I think RPM, FAWM and 50/90 are great exercises to blow those preconceived notions of quantity versus quality out of the water once and for all.

Kevin


"Good science comes in peer reviewed journals. Conspiracy theories come in YouTube videos. "
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Originally Posted by Kevin Emmrich
Originally Posted by Mike Caro Substudio
... Take all of those things all of that time and effort and place it into ONE song instead of 10 or 20 songs. One great song or GOOD song versus 20 okay ones.

I got a little bit of a chuckle on this one. I don't think we can say "OK, let me not waste anytime and just write a good one!". It doesn't work that way. We have to write those 20 songs and maybe one or two of them (or 4 or 5) rise to the top to become "good songs" (maybe). For me, a bad song takes about the same initial effort as a good one.

That's why I think RPM, FAWM and 50/90 are great exercises to blow those preconceived notions of quantity versus quality out of the water once and for all.

Kevin


smile Kev everyone is not the same creatively in how they work but It's not that we're sitting there saying "I'm wasting time".
What I'm saying is we have some good ideas or moments of inspiration then we leave them to jump to another song. Meanwhile our last chorus could of used the time and effort. And more importantly that "inspiration" that inspiration often comes from a melody or a cool certain chord.

How about the coolest part in our other song becomes ONE part of the last one? smile

Sometimes I can't help but think, how many gems do we really have in us? Or do we just keep repeating ourselves, For me more songs means I'm using the same chords and progressions over and over. I'm writing my lyrics much faster because I'm most likely settling just to keep moving. I see my friends do it ALL the time. My very young friend who is a wonderful blossoming artist and songwriter says to me, " You always write such great bridges"
"Hey I gave up a whole nother song for that bridge" smile

There are no pre-conceived notions only observations about human beings.
You can force songs out but you can't force inspiration that is why Paul McCartney the greatest pop song writer of the last century no longer writes great songs. If Billy Joel writes a song a day for as year, do you think it's gonna turn out like "The Stranger" or Bruce to Born To Run? Maybe Bruce needs to get involved with One of these programs so I could even buy one of his last six CD's. smile That was not exercise that brought those albums on.
There have been those who have written many songs and only ONE stood out, those are called "one hit wonders" And I bet they got that hit just writing it like all the others they wrote like all the b sides. Cause YES there are times when you would not even think that this ONE particular song was going to be the one to define your career. That it part of why lots of writing and doing is important too.

I agree those 50/90's, FAWN are great exercises even if you only do 10/90 it's still helps you, "you're writing"

But I think this is a part of what Mike's referring to.






Thanks!
Peace Mike
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A good SONG is analogous to good FOOD--Mike's BASIC RECIPE is a hurdle or plateau that must be reached to have that good song--

The added TWISTS and FLAVORS to whet the appetite with good food, can be applied to writing a good song too--DOCTORING THE BASIC RECIPE, SO TO SPEAK--IN QUEST OF THAT UNIQUE GREAT TASTE! (A HIT)

Write on SONGWRITERS TOWARDS GREAT TASTE--ONE DAY!

Mackie


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The boxing analogy just takes me back to a thought regarding just about any boxing champ (except Rocky Marchiano and MAYBE Jack Johnson).
Somewhere, someplace, sometime, there was a guy working in a wharehouse that but for motivation could have whipped any reigning champion, but he just didn't care or think about himself that way.
Like Marc Barnette says, even with hard work, the music business may not pay off, but odds are it sure won't without some hard work (I'm para-phrasing here Marc :-).

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Mike (Caro) - yes, everyone works differently, but it's certainly true that if you are always writing -- writing even mediocre "practice" stuff -- then when the inspiration hits your muscles are limber and strong, and the "good" idea has a better shot at being great.

Also, since you've been burrowing into various parts of your brain, you're more likely to make that little connection of word, phrase or idea, the one that elevates the song, than if you had let your mind go to other things waiting for lightning to strike.

I certainly don't always follow that advice myself, but I do know that forcing yourself to keep writing, even when the initial output is lame, can prime the pump.

And Mike (Dunbar) is right. You can get so lost in writing-related activities that you don't take the time to write.


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Everyone has to figure out their own way of cooking up songs. There aren't any recipe books and the ones that claim to be are a good introduction into the seamy side of the music business, full of promises they can't deliver on. If anyone knew the formula for writing a hit song they'd get rich quick. What it all comes down to is everyone pretty much has to figure it out on their own. It never hurts to have real talent and to also get lucky.


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Dan, I disagree. There are good recipe books. They can't teach you how to write a hit song, though they might show you an analysis of many hit songs. They can't teach you how to write a good song. What they can do is teach you the tools you need to write a good song. Tools such as chord structure, meter, melodic devices, poetic devices and so on. Yes, everyone has to figure it out on their own, some books, websites, friends etc. can be resources for folks while they figure it out. But first...figure it out.

As to forumulae for hits. I've never said there were. There are formulas that will make songs fit specific styles and genres of music, and often hits will fit in those styles, but there never has and never will be a formula for a hit. But if anyone is trying to write a hit, their focus is, in my opinion, all wrong. First, write a good song.


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Mike, In the end, I think we agree more than we disagree. You're much more analytical and eloquent in the language of music than I'll ever be. I'm more primitive and instinctual.


Write from your heart, not what you think others want to hear.

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Interesting, Dan, I began being instinctual. I was a mostly self taught guitarist. My style was derivative of the primitive. I learned fingerpicking by listening to records of people like Mississippi John Hurt, Bert Jansch and Chet Atkins. When I entered college, I was the only music major who didn't know how to read music. So I applied classical education to what I already knew. Scales and chords were shapes on the guitar neck.

In reality, music literature is a history of people analyzing the primitive and then creating a derivative. The work of Beethoven started with someone in a cave carving a flute out of a bear's femur. No one is independently original. At the very least, we derive from our ancestors. Mostly we copy each other.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
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Originally Posted by Mike Dunbar
Interesting, Dan, I began being instinctual. I was a mostly self taught guitarist. My style was derivative of the primitive. I learned fingerpicking by listening to records of people like Mississippi John Hurt, Bert Jansch and Chet Atkins. When I entered college, I was the only music major who didn't know how to read music. So I applied classical education to what I already knew. Scales and chords were shapes on the guitar neck.

In reality, music literature is a history of people analyzing the primitive and then creating a derivative. The work of Beethoven started with someone in a cave carving a flute out of a bear's femur. No one is independently original. At the very least, we derive from our ancestors. Mostly we copy each other.



Ah I can relate, this thread is a good one as it covers lots of things relative to music songwriting and most importantly "dealing with yourself" that is my area of expertise lol And I find it relates too many many people who participate in doing these things.

I am all instinct and I couple it with a massive dose of enthusiasm and effort. Like I mentioned in comparison,like a fighter.
Now I have countless weaknesses but those attributes I mentioned above would carry me deep into the fight, just as important as talent and drive is, your DEPTH of talent drive really makes a difference. Were I would get knocked out cold in that musical boxing ring is probably in the tenth round LOL when somebody puts a chart or sheet music in front of me smile

I can't read or write music, it's something I never got out of the way in my life. I did a little for a while but it's something you need to keep doing on a somewhat regular basis for it be of any use or be worth a darn at.
I'm starting to remedy that now, first just taking a more Lesson like and more learning approach to music. Writing songs especially ones with commercial appeal can take you away from that aspect of music VERY quickly and easily. And I have been at that game since my teens.

So now with the internet and all this media available I'm starting to be able to learn. That is my weakness "Stuff I don't know" smile So the Drum Rudiments was HUGE for me in taking my drumming to another level. Getting something I didn't have and would have gotten from day one had I ever took a lesson.
After 40 years I'm finally starting to learn the guitar neck. Whoa! smile

And that thing about others musical distractions interfering is 100% true Mike. My equipment alone can keep me busy, tortured, broke and happy without even playing a note or writing a word.
You can also spend every day just working on pitching your stuff and networking. So really if you want to be a pro your in for it.
You have to do everything yourself or keep that team together.

Once I finish my CD I will retire from "trying to do anything with my music and such" Then I will go back and get what I missed out on, not out of life too late for that, but just out of music.
Now I'm gonna go get great. smile



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Interesting Thread, Brother Mike et al!

As one who always writes a "Good Song" (Thanks to my Last Name..heh!) I merely recommend ya Live-A-Little, THEN write about it. I long-ago made up my mind to do at least ONE-Thing-Daily that I Like. Most-Often, yeah, that meant "Pen-Another-Lyric"...but not ALWAYS.

Sometimes "Time-Away" makes for a Better Song when ya get back to it. Read-a-Little...Chat-a-Bit..Travel-a-While. Have a Wine Cooler or two..Make Some Whoopie. Dunno about your Muse, by MINE comes back with a Vengeance when I've done that Little Checklist.

Good Luck with The Hits, Best Wishes & Big Hugs,
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If I take off my tin foil hat all my songs will be sucked from my head by the MegaMusicAudioBrainVacuum which, as everyone knows, is operated by the MajorLableMoligargy.

Good point Mike.

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Good songs? But if I ever let anyone hear one of those...it might get stolen!

Nope, I'm just gonna figure out how to monetize these bad ones.

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Originally Posted by Mike Dunbar

You want to be a songwriter?
Don't worry about writing great songs.
Never mind about great songs not making it.
Don't spend any money on demos.
Don't worry about the "evil" music business that conspires to keep out good writers.
Put away your checkbooks,
take off your tinfoil hats,
stop spending your time daydreaming and

WRITE A GOOD SONG.

My basic rules for a good song are that it be
understandable,
interesting,
memorable and
convey feelings.

It has to have all four.
Being understandable does not mean you can't have nonsense lyrics or deep hidden lyrics. That is "undestandably" your intention. We all know that Don McLean's "American Pie" or many of Dylan's songs are deep and subject to interpretation, but if you're writing a basic story song, don't lose the listener. The rest of the rules should speak for themselves.

As for the mechanics?
Read John Braneny's book, "The Craft and Business of Songwriting," read other books, read online.
Learn about meter, learn about music theory, learn how to analyze songs, analyze songs you like and figure out why you like them.

Until then:
STOP.
Spend no money,
have no arguments,
don't try to analyze the music business.
Go no further until you are writing good songs.


AMEN! GREAT ADVICE!
Maybe these lyric writing tips might help.

Study the craft,

write a lot of songs,

keep improving,

get to the point where complete strangers, people in the biz and not, ones have no vested interest in making you feel good, will honestly say "I like that song!" "I love that song" or I'd buy that song.

There are zillions of stories about songwriters, especially beginners, making all kinds of mistakes. I've made plenty, I've spoken to writers before during and after theirs.

Beginning songwriters are way too eager.
Wanna be lyricists want to SET their words to music.
They are in a hurry.
They're high on the rush of being creative and are convinced their work is way better than it is.
They don't want to hear they have an UGLY BABY.

the book "Outliers" has a chapter that says anyone who became great at anything spend around 10,000 hours practicing and doing it. There aren't any short cuts.

Many writers just don't have a frame of reference.

Many dream of having a hit song so they can quit their day jobs and write full time.
(btw Many former hit writers wish they had a steady jobs with benefits. Things are tough out there.)

Read Craig Bickhardt:
Ninety Mile Wind Excerpts From A Songwriter's Journal

Writing a GOOD SONG is a GREAT challenge.

We know it when we hear it.

Good luck


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yes, I agree with the grat part of you all- the only thing I don't is that spending money on it , unfortunately, seems to be part of the creative process (like big jim said ;-)!

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Hi Max

I'm glad this thread is upfront again, it is an excellent discussion into the REALITIES of songwriting and being one.Especially at the level when your sitting there wondering
What?Why?How? I want to do do something with my songs beyond my own house.
It NEVER happens, so why? how? what? can I do on my end.

On the investing side of it. FORGET for a moment spending any,money on ANYTHING no recording,no equipment,and just think
about ALL the hours and months and years spent on practicing, playing,writing and thinking about it.

Okay add them up and know for a fact it was TIME spent NOT making money doing something else. So everybody invests in one way even if it doesn't come out of there pocket.
Time is money, if I was getting paid for something else for every hour I practiced or jammed or wrote I would be VERY WELL OFF smile

To me there's no difference, all is an investment and the amount you put in usually shows itself in your work.

smile
All the best
Mike


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I agree, there's no difference: time, money, and all your available resources. How many, is often the question to answer... but, you know, when you hear Springsteen saying that the making of 'born to run' drained (prosciugato) half his and everybody around life away you wonder if you're ready to take this risk (I'm not, but I understand the concept...)!

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Mike, Yea that the best advise you could give any of us!

After all .. we do tend to be partial to our own songs, we write about anything and everything, so I just wrote one about your well take advise.

Geneva

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Originally Posted by MaxG
I agree, there's no difference: time, money, and all your available resources. How many, is often the question to answer... but, you know, when you hear Springsteen saying that the making of 'born to run' drained (prosciugato) half his and everybody around life away you wonder if you're ready to take this risk (I'm not, but I understand the concept...)!


Absolutely Max but the he did a whole bunch of albums afterwards anyway smile Born In The USA was even more taxing. Not in the making of the album but in the aftermath. BIG success all those videos and tours. Being along side of Michael & Prince as the biggest pop stars in the world.

Ya know what's really cool, doing all that work one year, doing what you love what you were "Born To Do" smile Being paid for that job FOREVER! And getting a check in the mail 35 years later for at least a half million dollars for re-releases..




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Originally Posted by nightengale
Mike, Yea that the best advise you could give any of us!

After all .. we do tend to be partial to our own songs, we write about anything and everything, so I just wrote one about your well take advise.

Geneva


Geneva

Well, cool. I wish I could find something to write about these days smile Look forward to hearing that song. Oh and remind me that I inspired it and I'll go way easier on the critique feedback LOL

smile Mike


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Very interesting. Man your best advice, keep your money in your pocket... until you have the hard part done, which is writing the song.
And your basic rules for a good song, understandable, interesting, memorable and convey feelings, I also agree with.
But for me this is when the real work begins... my insatiable fumbling for greatness.
My most useful instrument is my ear and after I have a song written and roughly arranged I put in my Ipod and I can listen to it for months waiting for it to speak to me, to give me
some hint of it's desired direction.
So I never consider a song complete. I recently learned to play
the F#min chord and completely rearranged an older song.
It didn't make the song great but it moved it along a bit.

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Beginning songwriters are eager for validation and to get recordings of songs they've written, especially non performing lyricists.

Many of us lose objectivity with our latest songs.

With our eagerness we make decisions to spend money on demos. I've demoed many songs in the past that I wouldn't demo today.
I hired demo producers I wouldn't hire now.
I've cowritten with songwriters who I wouldn't write with again.

If you're writing to get cuts, your songs have to compete and beat the best songs by pro writers. Infact if you've never gotten a major label cut, if your song gets heard, put on hold and makes an artist's short list, it has to be way way better than the other songs on the short list and especially similar songs, songs in the same category, like uptempo love song, because artists and labels would rather cut a song by a proven hit writer than an unknown.

Many songwriters are unaware of how great songs are by prowriters and where their songs stack up against them.

The points are: until you have a good/great song you don't need to spend much money and you don't need to bother with pitching.

don't get songwriting advice from people who love you or people you might hire to make demos. You want feedback from peers, pros and people who don't know you and don't care about you.

Don't hire a song plugger until you have a few good/great songs with awesome demos.


What should you do:

+ write write write

+ cowrite cowrite cowrite

+ study study study

+ join groups

+ get and give peer critiques, get pro critiques

+ go to workshops

+ join legit organizations like NSAI or http://SongU.com/ifs and participate

+ work work work and wait till your songs get stronger.


Don't quit your day job


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This is a great discussion and well worth reading through all the different perspectives,great to see where you think your opinion falls in with everyone else's.-Dana

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I can't tell the difference between a good song and a bad song and one that's somewhere in between. Maybe a good song is one that puts money in my pocket.

Jim

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INteresting posts.... and good advice here and there.. DG

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Originally Posted by Jim Colyer
I can't tell the difference between a good song and a bad song and one that's somewhere in between. Maybe a good song is one that puts money in my pocket.

Jim


Yes! For career and paying the bills concerns, THAT song of any thought by some would be a GREAT song for you! Or for any of us.

If any song hits many people for ANY reason that they will give, even if their answer is "I don't know,,,I just LOVE IT"!, then that is THEIR great song at that moment.

As kids, we all probably had certain songs we LOVED that either our parents or some kids not in our social group would laugh at and say, "that is not MUSIC"! Or, "they are just screaming", or whatever the case may be. BUT, to our ears, our favorite song in question by some others were thought and felt as pure GOLD! Magical! Even Genius! Great for us, terrible to others. Always has and will be the way with songs, artists, artworks, sport teams, clothes, politicians. bath oils, EVERYTHING! (Ewu to Wow)!

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Excellent post Ande!

So much money is wasted in Demoing songs before they are ready.
I think at the same time, getting those songs 'out' is a good way to keep moving forward.
All those songs can serve as a reminder of where you started.
Also, you will be able to see how much you have or haven't grown.
Looking back at some of my earlier Songs, I can now see what was lacking in them and make sure not to make the same mistakes on new Songs.
I think of it as a 'Rite of Passage' -something we all have to do to come out the other side a 'Stronger' Writer:)-Dana

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Originally Posted by Dayson
Excellent post Ande!
So much money is wasted in Demoing songs before they are ready.
I think at the same time, getting those songs 'out' is a good way to keep moving forward.
All those songs can serve as a reminder of where you started.
Also, you will be able to see how much you have or haven't grown.
Looking back at some of my earlier Songs, I can now see what was lacking in them and make sure not to make the same mistakes on new Songs.
I think of it as a 'Rite of Passage' -something we all have to do to come out the other side a 'Stronger' Writer:)-Dana


Thank you Dana,

I've spent a lot of money on demos. There are many that I wouldn't demo now. I think it's way better to get peer critiques and maybe even spend $5 to $25 on a pro critique, before deciding to spend $100, 200 or more on a demo.

I was also a beginning songwriter and understand that urgency to create and the burning desire to finally hear something I created. It's also a vulnerability to get ripped off.

Each of us has our own journey.

I believe this is true:
A great demo can't disguise a weak song, but
a weak demo can disguise a great song.


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