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Big Jim's not alone in snorting at the music industry's fascination with production oriented pop divas at the expense of singers who can actually, well you know, sing.

Here's a critic from the Grand Rapids Press dissing Britney and offering a better alternative.

Critic says talent should trump production


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Wonderful song! What struck me first of all is that she never got out of her chair. No "strutting her stuff", so to speak. Her voice carried the tune. The second thing that struck me was the lines of ads superimposed on the lower half of the video, Is this the new way to make money off your talent? To allow ad agencies to pimp someone else when you are supposedly showing off your own talents? I found these "ads" offensive, and thought they distracted from the video. Have to wonder what she got paid for this distraction.
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Like way too many of the pop scene's Top 40 creations these days, this is a producers' album, not an artist's album: a knob-twisting, special effects-layering creation of a “brain trust” of savvy engineers.

Good article.
Again just like it's the "Type Of Talent" it's the type of producer...
GREAT ARTIST also have & had GREAT producers in the past, like Producing "Dark Side Of The Moon" "Sgt Peppers" and the other countless great albums. Only Pink Floyd did NOT need that much help. smile Go see them live and find out for yourself...

I have been explaining the THREE P's for years so again to those who don't know about them. This is what is most relevant in today's music world.

1. P - "Producers" Guys who were DJ's and learned the art of the second P

2. P - Programming "speaks for itself, and does take a knack to do it well.

3. P - Pitch Correction - It is the NEW REVERB and NOBODY is shutting it off any time soon.

I did enjoy the "Adel" tune. But what EVERYONE keeps forgetting is the "Business Of Music" and the "Entertainment Business"
LOOKS & SEX are EVERYTHING in that world. Start there and work your way downward.

What "type of talent" is 80% of the world interested in? The kind they'll actually stop for a second to pay attention too?
The kind that shakes it's ass! That's the kind.

What HOT! in the mind of the young public, is what matters to the entertainment industry, and that HOT is 80% of the time packaged and delivered by the media without a doubt whatsoever.
As long as it made out to be cool & hip.

George Castanza said it best when asked, "How do know they'll watch your show George?"
"Because it's on the TV that's how"

Hey Charlie Sheen makes a CD right now he outsells ALL OF US put together.
But there is no need musically to pay him tribute & great respect. Or defend him if he did like some people would.



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There is no doubt that the production is important in pop music. Sometimes the singer is just carried along by the producer. This does not mean, however, that it is always so. Some of the current top pop artists are really quite good. Just one example - Rihanna.

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Originally Posted by Ott Lukk
The second thing that struck me was the lines of ads superimposed on the lower half of the video, Is this the new way to make money off your talent? To allow ad agencies to pimp someone else when you are supposedly showing off your own talents? I found these "ads" offensive, and thought they distracted from the video. Have to wonder what she got paid for this distraction.
Ott


No ads on my screen. I guess my ad blocker got rid of them. They are not on the actual video.

Adele is doing very well. Two Grammies and lots of sales. Her success is due to her musical talent and she appeals to those who appreciate it.

Britney on the other hand appeals to those who like a spectacle and she is always making a spectacle of herself. Room for both probably.


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Adele is fabulous. I like seeing those artists making money. She deserves every penny and some of Britney's too! smile

Sorry, that doesn't actually pertain to this post, I am still stuck on the other one about the heated discussion on whether Taylor Swift has talent or not....I am not opposed to all the production because some of what sells is the unique sound of the music and the catchy production. I think it is awful to listen to live - like Kesha and all of her electronic vocal stuff she does. I didn't like it when Neil Young did it either. But sometimes it is just part of the act, like with Lady Gaga. She tries to be theatrical on stage and is extreme in that way. I don't think her music would sell as well without the grand production. Again, it is what sells. However, I have an incredible amount of respect for someone like Adele, as I think most people do, who can just get up there and deliver without the technology. She is a true talent that will endure.

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I am not a big fan of Adele but can appreciate her as a decent singer....Good article Dan......I am not alone in seeing through the production to see what little talent there is left behind.
Tom..... Rihanna.....Geez.....she is 99.99% production and the rest is sexual tease AND like Miss Spears it could be anybody behind the mic or out there flashing off her boobs so Tom if you cannot see what is talent and what is production then that only adds to the reasons why you blindly like these kind of acts and I do not.
These kids have little or no musical talent...cause if they did they could pull off a live performance without lip sync. Strip away the looks and the sexual tease vids and you have nothing. But hey looks and sexual tease is what sells not MUSIC.
They are to music what a semi naked girl on the hood of a car is to car sales...they can sell it but do not ask them to drive it.

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Hey Jim,
If Adele is a "decent" singer, I am just curious who ranks high on your list as an incredible vocalist?


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Originally Posted by Tracy Harris
Hey Jim,
If Adele is a "decent" singer, I am just curious who ranks high on your list as an incredible vocalist?


You haven't figured that out yet?
Here's a hint
A very tall Scot grin


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I have my own favourites......Adele is pretty good but I would not rate her as one of the all time greats. I have been singing myself and listening to other singers for most of my 57 years on this planet so I will not say someone is great unless they truly are. She has her flaws....and that song is a bit of a dirge.
Most of you will know that I am pretty discerning and hard to please. So it should be with all of us. There are tons of talent out there so I set a high bar....maybe some who post here set it far too low.

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I would like to hear who some of your favorites are. Maybe you will enlighten me!

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But here are some ad hoc names that spring to mind in no particular order.

One of my favs is Danny Bowes...you may not have heard of him.
I also like the usual suspects like Tina Turner, Otis Reading, James Brown, Neil Diamond, Rod Stewart, Maggie Bell, Joe Cocker, Nat King Cole, Hoagie Carmichael, Aretha, Freddie Mercury, Ann Wilson, Diana Ross, Robert Plant, Frank, Deano and Sammy, Peggy Lea, Shirley Bassey. Anastacia, Anne Murray, Pavarotti and most of the other classical dudes.....I have missed out thousands but I'm tired and am getting a headache. Sadly no one from recent charts has inspired me much. But you have enough to be going on with. Sadly the Justin Beibers and Rihannas are a joke compared to anyone on that list.

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To be fair, being a good producer is extremely difficult. If production-oriented albums are becoming more popular these days, maybe that is just saying something with regards to what the public is interested in. A great voice is something to marvel at, certainly. But a production wizard is as well. Both take an enormous amount of time and skill to perfect.


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I agree with all of those. But you should be comparing Rhianna and Beiber and Taylor Swift to Shaun Cassidy, Debbie Gibson, New Kids on the Block. They are teen fads and there will always be teen fads. The money is just a lot bigger today. But Matchbox twenty - very talented, Alanis Morisette - very unique and very talented, Carrie Underwood can sing like there is no tomorrow. There are some great artists out there. Unfortunately today, there is just not as much room for the original bands and singer songwriters like there was during the 50's, 60's and 70's. Hip hop, country and teen idols have the stage right now and perhaps that is sad in some ways, but those are the times and it sells!

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Art moves from rootsy to rococo, then back. Blues to Ragtime to Jazz to Bebop to Rock to Beach Boys to Beatles etc. Pop is in its rococo period again. Same with country. There will most likely be a roots revolution in both, then it starts over through sophistication to complexity. Same in archicture, same in home decorating.


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Having spent a great deal of time in studios I marvel at the skill of the production guys. It is such a shame that those backroom guys who are mostly responsible for the hits of today and many of the hits of yesteryear do not get the recognition, acclaim and rewards they should be getting. Sigers and musicians are ten a penny but good engineers are worth their weight in gold. They have taken polishing turds to an artform.

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Hey dudes, Adele is not bad, but melody of her song...
just have a listen to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbYj71g1QQQ

as for me exactly verse is almost the same,
only keys are different: they played in Bm and she in Cm

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Originally Posted by Tracy Harris
I agree with all of those. But you should be comparing Rhianna and Beiber and Taylor Swift to Shaun Cassidy, Debbie Gibson, New Kids on the Block. They are teen fads and there will always be teen fads. The money is just a lot bigger today. But Matchbox twenty - very talented, Alanis Morisette - very unique and very talented, Carrie Underwood can sing like there is no tomorrow. There are some great artists out there. Unfortunately today, there is just not as much room for the original bands and singer songwriters like there was during the 50's, 60's and 70's. Hip hop, country and teen idols have the stage right now and perhaps that is sad in some ways, but those are the times and it sells!


I agree with Tracy 100%

I know I sound like and certainly feel like a broken record smile
But we ALWAYS had this kinda stuff on the charts,radio & TV

The ONLY differences are....
1- They (The music/entertainment business) are now and have been for many years leaving OUT all of the other great stuff.
Some of it just being put it in the back seat.

2- Even more important to all of us is "less outside writers"
These "Producers and artists are TRACK WRITING and the industry accepts ANY kind of lyric today... yeah the kind you can make up to the track in one day. No going back laboring over it. In many cases it's just "Lets Just use "Rock Your Body" one more time, and rhyme World with Girl".

That means in the writing stage and recording stage we don't really need you "Musicians, Producers who deal with musicians,
outside writers, like we don't need your LYRICS we have a 14 year old here that does the job and all the kids love it.. so!

If your first instrument is not a Roland MC 909 and your not a beat/bass line programmer you have no place on the charts or in our industry really.
These are the things that concern me, not how good or bad we think pop singer is today. NONE of us are pop singers. smile
We are songwriters with nowhere I repeat nowhere but Country music to go with your songs. Put the sequencer before the pencil.
And I love and admire programming producers, one of best friends was one. And he gave me my break in the industry.

That is why I was so glad to see some of what occurred at the Grammies this year. Not to take away from the pop stars as they don't get enough of everything smile but not to leave out all the rest.


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Is this such a bad thing, though? The software & video game industry has moved in that direction as well. If you come up with a great idea for a website, or a game, or a tool, that's well and good. It takes talent, skill and brains to do that. However, the bigger challenge (by far) is executing that idea. That is why folks like Mark Zuckerberg are so celebrated. It's not that the idea of a social networking website was new, prior to Facebook. It's how he executed it so beautifully compared to the competition.

Another example: Apple. Did Apple invent digital retail? Not by a long shot. MP3 players? Nope. Smartphones? Definitely not. Tablet computers? Nah. But they popularized all these things. Have you ever used a pre-iPod MP3 player? I had one, and it was awful. Likewise, once the iPhone showed up, many people realized how cumbersome and difficult-to-use their own phones were.

The idea (in our case, a melody or a lyric) is important. That has always been the case. But in today's world, ideas really are a dime a dozen. It takes someone special to make that idea a reality, and that is why the producer deserves so much credit, and why perhaps it's not such a bad thing that they are so pivotal in the industry.


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The whole idea of a producer is to produce.......songwriters and musicians plus singers etc give them something to produce...well that is how it used to be....Now it seems they forget to bring in material and decent artists to produce and just play about with production tools and a few beats rather than a proper song sung by a proper singer. TURD POLISHING.
Now imagine a great producer working with a great song and singer.....that is what I want to see in the charts....not some out of tune kid singing a ba ba black sheep type song hyped up with a beat and tons of production.

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Maybe that's just the old way of looking at things though - that producers JUST produce, and everyone else does the idea work. Again, and this is just my take on it, I believe that when the writer/lyricist is also the producer, you can achieve tremendous results. I personally would not feel comfortable passing off one of my songs for someone else to produce. And how could they love it as much as I do, and hear the same thing I hear in my head?

That being said, nobody needs vapid lyrics smile


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I agree with Andrew it is the old way of looking at it.
And there is a lot of positives to add to this approach and that world.

But what's funny is the newer way and alternate way has been going on for twenty years now already. What's the surprise?
Like I said one of my best friends and the guy who got me in the door was a dance music producer. I have not only tremendous respect for him personally but musically as well.

I learned alot from him and he is very MUSICAL. That's what so many people don't understand, "being musical" And it can have nothing to do with playing an instrument or singing or writing lyrics. All of those things is just so much the better.
His knowledge and skills were so impressive and his FEEL for music. "Being Musical" was easily relate-able for me.

I still feel the best music always came from and comes from a musician. But that is not the only way.

I just got a phone call from the drummer of my new instrumental up on the mp3 board, and he played it for a HUGE dance music producer. One who's worked with the biggest in the industry and he likes it ALOT.
I wonder if I would have looked down on my dance music producer friend back in the day would this have ever come to be? lol

Of course I didn't, look down I would never be so silly. If you truly love music you love all aspects of it, at least to some degree or another. I was humbled in that studio in a world I did not know, as I'm humbled everyday still now by my instruments and my health.

Use it all people!




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It is not quite as simple or as black and white as the old way versus the new way. Or saying the old way is dead. This opens up a number of points and a whole can of worms.
The new way produces jacks of all trades but masters of none. This is probably the reason why so many trashy songs find their way into the charts. Few people are real masters of doing the whole job of writing, performing and producing so in at least one area they will fall short.
There is still a huge place for great songs performed by great performers and entertainers with real instruments in front of a real audience and it will remain so for a very very long time. Few if any jack of all trades can do all of that. There is no way to describe the huge buzz of performing live in front of a large audience. Andrew by his own admission is not a live performer so he misses out on that. There is nothing better for an audience of music lovers than to see and interact with their fav acts performing live. For an artists it beats the heck out of counting downloads or Youtube hits.
I prefer using the specialist approach and teamwork....you concentrate on your strengths and compliment them by using others strengths in areas you are weaker to produce the whole which is better than the sum of all the parts.
Whilst this may be the old fashioned way of doing it...it has proved to be the best.
There are some great songwriters who cannot perform or do not have the confidence or charisma to capture an audience. There are some great performers who simply cannot write a decent song.
There are also some great producers who cannot perform or write but can twiddle knobs etc and take a song to another dimension.
I agree that there is something to be said about the new ways.....but the kind of music it produces can be very limiting one dimensional and certainly not performance orientated.
IMO It is all about horses for courses, using what works for you and your kind of music to give the public you aim at what they want......not everyone stops listening to music after their teens or get turned on by pretty kids singing about days of the week or eating pizza.
In the past people pulled their resources to produce a great product. Just because technology has brought the capabilities to our living rooms does not mean we can be experts at doing the whole kit and caboodle

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It is not quite as simple or as black and white as the old way versus the new way. Or saying the old way is dead. This opens up a number of points and a whole can of worms.
The new way produces jacks of all trades but masters of none. This is probably the reason why so many trashy songs find their way into the charts. Few people are real masters of doing the whole job of writing, performing and producing so in at least one area they will fall short.
There is still a huge place for great songs performed by great performers and entertainers with real instruments in front of a real audience and it will remain so for a very very long time. Few if any jack of all trades can do all of that. There is no way to describe the huge buzz of performing live in front of a large audience. Andrew by his own admission is not a live performer so he misses out on that. There is nothing better for an audience of music lovers than to see and interact with their fav acts performing live. For an artists it beats the heck out of counting downloads or Youtube hits.
I prefer using the specialist approach and teamwork....you concentrate on your strengths and compliment them by using others strengths in areas you are weaker to produce the whole which is better than the sum of all the parts.
Whilst this may be the old fashioned way of doing it...it has proved to be the best.
There are some great songwriters who cannot perform or do not have the confidence or charisma to capture an audience. There are some great performers who simply cannot write a decent song.
There are also some great producers who cannot perform or write but can twiddle knobs etc and take a song to another dimension.
I agree that there is something to be said about the new ways.....but the kind of music it produces can be very limiting one dimensional and certainly not performance orientated.
IMO It is all about horses for courses, using what works for you and your kind of music to give the public you aim at what they want......not everyone stops listening to music after their teens or get turned on by pretty kids singing about days of the week or eating pizza.
In the past people pulled their resources to produce a great product. Just because technology has brought the capabilities to our living rooms does not mean we can be experts at doing the whole kit and caboodle

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Mike I take your point about track writing and the new way of doing things...BUT....that way is only good for certain genres of music like pop and dancehall and will IMO produce a lesser product. We are in an era of homogenised disposable music. It is not the best quality and is not built to last. Some of it is OK to dance to etc and who can resist those pretty young things flaunting their stuff....but it is not a staple diet for discerning music lovers. I know a lot of young folk who are turning back to the old school and more traditional ways because they see through the hype and rubbish that seeme to have monopolised the current music scene. There is room for both ways BUT class will always tell. I doubt if the Swifts and Biebers will go down in history as class acts or even be rememberd in a few years time.
The Claptons and Wonders will...and it is only a matter of time till the wheel turns and performance driven music returns in a big way.

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I think you might be surprised at just how good some of the people who are dissed here actually are if asked to play solo and accompany themselves on guitar or piano. Lady Gaga for instance was a very talented singer/songwriter who played solo before taking the pop route to achieve fame and fortune. Taylor Swift can certainly play and sing solo if she wants to. There is no reason for a label or production company to accept mediocre talent because there is an almost infinite supply of talent waiting in the wings.

The production basically exists due to competition in business. Everyone is trying to outdo the next guy to get the attention of the public. Jim, when you grew up, there was BBC TV and maybe one commercial channel available. They broadcast only a few hours per day and everyone had to watch what they showed. Today, my cable TV has hundreds of channels available and my computer has hundreds more sites and they all want me to watch them......so they try to get my attention with flashy content. It is not about the artist - it is about getting the attention of the public and then using that attention to attract advertisers. So if that requires Gaga or Pink to sing while doing cartwheels wearing pasties and a thong, that's what they will do to get people's attention. It's not about music, it's about selling advertising. TV shows are the same way. Shots that last less than one second before moving to the next one, graphics, violence, etc. etc. - just to sell advertising.

There is of course a huge music scene that operates a level or two below that bunch, where all the truly great musical people can be found. They are playing smaller venues and touring heavily. In my town, there are so many good people passing through and performing, there is no way I can see them all......plus we have a fantastic local scene. I could go out and see great musicians here two or three times per evening. Of course, they are not making the big salaries of the Gagas and Swifts.



Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

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Thanks Colin....I am not surprised at how good these people are just surprised at how mediocre they are. JMO
I take what you say about competition......Yes there was only a couple of part time TV stations when I was growing up and you either watched or switched off. Today although there are zilluions of channels and a lot of so called competition the TV stations are mainly crap they repeat programmes many times and a lot of programs are pretty mindless rip offs of each others hit shows and cheap to produce. The same applies to the pop scene. It is the same mindless crap churned out ad finitum and it features clones who copy and rip off songs and an image using the same formula and unbreakable mould.
The average music listener of today is pretty easily pleased and lacks taste education and culture. Everything is aimed at the teenage market who do not know or care if it is crap as long as it is fashionable. Very sad for the level below that where all the truly great musicians can be found.
I understand ALL this...but it does not mean I have to like it. That is why am so vocal about it.

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Big Jim: I note that on one of your posts here you mentioned that you've sung and listened to other singers the 57 years you've been on this planet. Just curious: are you saying that previously you were on another planet?
Ott

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Quote
The new way produces jacks of all trades but masters of none.


I guess I just disagree. My best work (JPF-winning, placed on national TV, hundreds of thousands of YT views, etc.) is stuff I wrote and produced myself. When I produce for other people, the end result just isn't as good. My production is always best if I'm the songwriter, no exceptions.


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Originally Posted by Andrew Aversa
Quote
The new way produces jacks of all trades but masters of none.


I guess I just disagree. My best work (JPF-winning, placed on national TV, hundreds of thousands of YT views, etc.) is stuff I wrote and produced myself. When I produce for other people, the end result just isn't as good. My production is always best if I'm the songwriter, no exceptions.


Very few people are true one man bands few can write great songs, plus perform great songs, plus record edit and master great songs and promote themselves all on their own. That is why most people assemble a team of experts and specialists who contribute in the areas they excel in to pull resources. Even top music legends realise their own limitations and utilise the help from co writers, session musicians, specialist engineers, backing singers etc etc etc etc. You must be the exception to the rule and a very unique talent.....or a jack of all trades.
Do not stop what you are doing...but think about how others more succesful than you may or from different fields of music do things. The first thing that happens when someone hits the big time is they hire a team of top people.
An important point worth considering is that the style and genre of music you mostly produce has its own unique and distinct way of doing things. That way of working is completely different and to a certain extent irrelevant to the way more conventional bands or singer/songwriters operate.
As I said earlier your way of doing things only works and applies to a narrow field of music.


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