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#890015 04/04/11 11:43 AM
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I know she is not the greatest singer, but I really like her and admire her. 20 millions cds sold and entertainer of the year - well deserved.

Tom


Thomas Shea

Thomas Shea - Songwriting
http://www.soundclick.com/thomasshea

Justice - Songs
http://www.soundclick.com/justice-nebraska

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For someone who cannot sing I think she has had more than enough undeserved congrats and limelight already.

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Jim, Taylor wrote a song about you!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CPrzNr1b14


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

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Pity she cannot sing it.......LOL
Tip for Miss Swift....Noses are for breathing with mouths are for singing with and it helps if you can hold a tune without Melodyne.
How much of these mediocre songs does she actually write and how much is written for her rather than by her?

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Man. She whacked ol' Jim, pretty hard didn't she? LOL! I wonder where she met Jim? I bet he went to one of her concerts and hung around backstage to meet her but didn't want to tell us.

Good call their Mike.

MAB

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Jim,

You can call it weak but that is why you miss pretty much everything that is going on right now. For your information she writes almost 100% of her stuff and has since she was 15 years old. The people around her are very impressed with her and there are some pretty seasoned writers and artists.

But as always you can complain. When you do something well I guess you should do it often.

MAB

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Marc on another thread you said you disliked whiny nasally singers so why the sudden change of heart? Maybe in case she reads it!!!!!
Back to the old argument......you can sell anything if marketed the correct way. We have been bombarded with so much mediocre crap we have begun to accept it as if it is from talented people.
You cannot in your wildest dreams say she has any great talent other than being a pretty kid who has made lots of money from pop records. That IMO does not need much talent just the right connections and backing. I am sure many thousands of HONEST people would agree.

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I do not miss just about everything...I see right through it and refuse to lower my standards to theirs.

PS There is a debate and much controversy over exactly what she does write......it is still of no consequence as her stuff by any standards is pretty mediocre.

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Ah c'mon Jim,

The girl doesn't sing so bad.

And besides, I'd go horizontal spider wrestling with her any day. smile

cheers, niteshift

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Jim,

First of all, you are wrong. Sorry but you are. There are billions spent on people better looking, marketed the same way, the exact same thing. You are wrong because that is the nature of the business and you can only force people or in your case fool them for so long. Those are fads and don't take over the top spot of the business. Name one that had no talent and was a charade in any tangible way for any length of time. There are many overnight successes, one hit wonders. They don't have impact on the entire culture, the business and change the paramaters.

You are looking at things through such an unbelievably narrow lens it is no wonder you can't see the forest for the trees. But I will tell you what she did and why I admire her. You can think I am a fool and that is your right. But i have been around the block too just like you have and think I have a pretty decent perspective on it because I deal in it every day.

Over the past 10-15 years we in Nashville have been inundated by younger singers. The 12-20 year olds paraded in here routinely all trying to be the next American Idols. And thanks to that show one vapid nothing singer has appeared. The same in rap in hip hop in every other genre, mediocrity always rises and seems to dictate the market.

I listen to songs and writers for a living. It is all day every day. And to hear anyone do anything that is the least bit different is almost impossible. When it comes to younger artists, they come off in two ways. Either sophomoric, sam I am, or age inappropriate. A 16 year old girl sounding like a slut, ala Britany Spears.

When I first met Taylor and started hearing about her I was as skeptical as you. I had to be convinced. I was by one song. "Our Song." Where she took a subject we have heard a billion times before, "our song, playing on the radio,dancing to our song when we got married, blah,blah blah. She did it differently that personified our song as "noises that teen agers go throug, a slamming door, talking low on the phone so your mother don't know.." It was instinctive fresh writing that no one else had done.

She expanded the market format from 18-45 and hooked every girl her age, AND their mothers AND their grandmothers, who thought "That is my life, or the lives of my daughters or grandaughters." She hooked them in with melodies and stories that were more in line of their lives.

The rest of her songs are like that. They take the listeners and her fans to places they have been but never looked at in that way. She shows, not tells and makes it responsive to not only the people who are her fans but people who are not a fan of that particular genre. Her presence in shows, the culture, fashion, etc. is everywhere. And while I agree marketing has a great deal to do with that, you have to start off with a product someone wants to buy. They want to buy it in a technological world that has become free for almost everyone else.

And it is her. Not her co-writers, managers, producers, publishers, because I have spoken to many in quiet conversations that would tell me if that was the case.

As far as her voice goes Jim, you and I both know that the human voice continues to change and adapt until you are around 21 years old. It is why the 12 year old Michael Jackson and the 30 year old Micheal Jackson have many differences. And if you were a 20 year old kid performing with your idol (Stevie Nicks) you would be a little nervous too.

So do I think she hung the moon? No? Do I think she is the best singer? Writer? Entertainer? No. But what I think she is a very talented writer/artist who focuses what she has done, has been able to work with technology that works against most of us and does exactly what I teach other people to do, say what you mean and get as many people as you can liking you more than they dislike you. And do as much of it as you can in a mostly positive way.

She is not a public meltdown Charlie Sheen, Lindsey Lohan, she is not a train wreck, she is a pretty decent kid. And she is doing well. I may not love everything that she does but frankly she impresses me because she does what I see almost no one else doing, making very quality music that connects with her fans.

And you are not a fan of hers. That is fine. I just don't know why you constantly have to do that same whine that doesn't do anything for anyone. You are not her target audience. So what she does has absoultely nothing on your life. Would be nice if you could admit that everyone who likes something isn't an idiot.

MAB

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Taylor isn't my favorite artist by any stretch but I do admire her talent and ability to connect with a huge audience. She doesn't just connect with young folks either.Her audience transcends age.
She does not write 100% of her songs. She was given a whole team of writers to work with but she was involved in every song. I would also say she probably was the genesis for the songs.

That she doesn't meet some standards of Great singers I admit but her delivery and phrasing are surprising. She makes lyrics flow that appear to be sporadic. That is a talent in itself.
As far as autotune goes I think it is expected now a days. I don't know if she uses it or not.
I also think I am seeing some maturity in her songs. She is only getting better.

Hell I remember these same complaints about Elvis and the Beatles.

The thing that makes a star is the ability to attract an audience and hold that audience. Taylor does that.
That takes something special and like it or not Taylor Swift has what ever that something is.

I wish I had it.


Bill
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Bill,

I'm sorry to correct you here but she really didn;t have a whole team of writers. She did cowrite with some people but those really didn't make into her final product. She had one, Liz Rose, who told me that she just "polished the edges" on Taylor's stuff. She has been writing since about 12 years old and the reason she was signed by Troy Tomlinson as a writer at SONY was that she wrote on a VERY high level for even experienced writers.

The current CD is 100% hers. That is what impresses me about her. She does what I tell each and everyone of you that you have to be doing. Say the same things we have all heard a billion times but do it in a different way.

That is what she does. And her audience reacts to it.

MAB

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I guess I'm just an Old Softie, but I've slowly become a BIG Fan of Mz Swift.

She's got the ability to take LOTS of Auto-Bio material & make it into Universal Messages...which cut across the Usual Kid Demographics & touch even Older Folks' hearts.

"MINE" has absolutely KILLER Lyrics (Check 'Em Out) & truly Beautiful Singing & Production on it.

HOPE I can come up with the Loot to see her in-Concert here in Tampa soon (was just announced last week she's a-coming.)

Whatever she's doing, she's doing it right.

Best Wishes/Big Hugs,
Stan

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Marc
I tend to believe Ms Swift's own words when it comes to whom she co wrote with.
Speak Now is all her own. That is an incredible accomplishment.

“I knew I couldn’t let my publishers down, and I couldn’t let this industry down,” Swift says of those early writing sessions. “And I knew how people were going around talking about how there’s this 14-year-old who had just lucked into a major publishing deal. So, before every single writing session, I’d walk in with 15 or 20 ideas, of songs that were almost finished. For me, I just wanted everyone to know I was serious about it, and that, yes, I was going to high school during the day. But while I was in school, every second of my free time was spent on thinking of ideas to bring to these co-writers.”

On Taylor Swift, she wrote most of the songs with Liz Rose. “She’s one of my favorite co-writers,” Swift says, “and she and I wrote eight of the songs on my first record, and I think three of the songs on my second record are ones I wrote with her. I felt so comfortable with her that sometimes I would bring in the craziest ideas. Sometimes they worked, sometimes they didn’t. A case in point where it worked was when I brought in an idea called ‘Tim McGraw.’ She looked at me like I was crazy, and then, as I kept on playing this idea for her, it sunk in. She got it.”






Bill
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If she walked in with 15 to 20 ideas that were almost finished songs, then Liz polished the edges and they put them out...

They're both saying the same thing...

No need to get upset!!

Jim - I'm sorry you feel these folks are sold to the public with large marketing budgets. Whether they are or not, you can't deny that going in to writing sessions with 15-20 song ideas, many of which have become huge hits, while going to high school takes talent, dedication and hard work.

I think her voice sounds like that of a high school girl and since thats what shes singing about and to, her voice slots right in.

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I couldn't give you the title of even one of Taylor Swift's songs, so I'm no shill for her. But I see a mixture of sour grapes and jealousy in the criticism of her success. It's an old story. Success breeds jealousy and the evil eye.

I randomly googled her lyrics and read about half a dozen of them. Is she Bob Dylan? Hank Williams? Kris Kristofferson? No, she's a long way from that crowd. Maybe she's in Paul McCartney's class. He never wrote the deepest lyrics either.

From what I saw her thoughts and lyrics are pretty typical teen age musings. But then that's what she is, I guess. I haven't googled her age but she must be in her teens or barely out of them. I can't comment on her music or voice, since I haven't heard any of her songs.

But I say, let her enjoy her success and let her fans enjoy it, too. She's making recordings that people like and doesn't seem to be hurting anyone. More power to her.


Write from your heart, not what you think others want to hear.

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Marc.... why defend mediocrity.... she is mediocre by any standards you know it and I know it. Nobody knows why these people make it. I am pretty sure that there is a huge media campaign aimed at kids and we all know kids will by anything that gets the publicity and is the in thing. As you say some pretty good acts slip through the net and some pretty duff ones make it big time each one is a puzzle. But please as musicians please DO NOT kid on you think they have talent. You must know thousands who could blow her away both in the songwriting and in the performing dept. I know a lot who can.
Do we as discerning adults really want or need nasally out of tune mega stars who sound like prepubescents on helium.
Nite I prefer proper full grown women to little girls both to look at and to listen to singing..... you wanna look out ogling teenagers.... some people get locked up for it.

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I like Taylor's music better than that Bundy chick who was fairly hot news a while back. I think she's great. A great role model if nothing else. Thank God she isn't another Madonna or Britney or Mindy McCready or some rapper girl in and out of prison.

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Jim,

I'm sorry man you could not be more wrong.She is not mediocre. The other people you are talking on are mediocre.You have your opinion but you are WAY out of the mainstream on this. Sorry. you have the right to be wrong.I just outlined why she isn't. If you can't see that, sorry you just don't get it. I hear mediocrity all the time and she ain't it.

But if you can do better we are all waiting to hear you break out. You can always be a detractor if you can do better. I just don't hear it.

MAB

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I didn't know anything about Taylor Swift when I heard "Our Song" on the radio and my first impression was "Wow". It wasn't because she is cute and the song was catchy. It was something I had never heard before- an new attitude, an innocence, a unique way of phrasing, a rhyming scheme so casual it delighted the ear- in short, an originality that sprang from her 17 year old life.

The song and the singer were completely original. I got the feeling much like I remember when I heard "I want to hold your hand" by the Beatles or "Take it easy" by the Eagles, or "Fire and Rain" by James Taylor.

How could you not understand that Swift is a unique talent. Just listen- there is no way some 50 year old veteran could write "Our Song". For anyone who finds "Our Song" boring or cliche or whatever negative thing you want to say about it, I say you are not listening, or you don't understand the creative process, or you have never been around teenagers, or you are hearing impaired. I can name a dozen popular artist that sell a lot of records and still turn out bad recordings but Taylor Swift is not one of them.


"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
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You do not need to be able to do better to criticise someone especially if they are a big star who cannot sing in tune. I am not the one earning millions so I do not need to prove anything. Songwriting is just a hobby for me I just perform for a living. So from that POV I qualify to know a good song and a good singer when I hear it....I have always been my own man and like what I like not what others tell me to like or what others less discernable like. I am not swayed by the public's perception and their fashions and fads especially kids who are not musical and who are easily led. She is no diff to most of the other girls her age who post on YouTube I see nothing of any greatness in her tunes and her lyrics are nothing special even for a teenager there is little diff between her and Miss Rebbecca Black of the Friday fame......the one who wrote a song on Friday and was laughed at on Saturday.
Perhaps you have surrounded yourself with mediocrity so much that you too have learned to accept it as being something special.
I view music as a skill and an art form not from a business POV so perhaps the dollar signs blind people too much. Perhaps you are thinking more in dollars than taste and talent. Maybe that is why you get it and I do not.

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Jim, It's hard to believe you have actually listened to Swift. As a challenge, curb the gag instinct and actually listen to Swift sing "Our song"; then honestly report that you do not hear originality, wit, artistry, and songwriting excellence. This line alone should at least make you laugh:

was riding shotgun with my hair undone
In the front seat of his car
He's got a one-hand feel on the steering wheel
The other on my.......... heart

Near the end of the song when she deliberately rushes a line and makes her voice rise like a little girl (the line is "and he talks real slow")- she is making fun of herself- where have you heard anyone do that before in a song?


It could be that you have no way to relate to the world this girl occupies. In that case the most honest thing you can say is: "I don't get it", which I think you've said.


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In this world, there's no way it pays off to critizise a successful artist like Swift, so hats off for Jim, who's putting his rep. on the line. It's still ok to disagree on taste.

Not that I'm an expert by any means, but I think Taylor Swift has developed her own style, managed cross-over appeal, built a huge fan base from a very young age (which is an unbelievable achievement these days!), she gets under the skin of her audience, which can be very hard to do with the younger segment (if my own teaching is any reliable measure on that.. Lol). And basically, I like the expressiveness in her voice (yea, "timber", "tone", and stuff like that).

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Jim,

The worst concert I ever attended was the Beach Boys. They were terribly out of tune and sounded like they couldn't care less. Does that mean they couldn't sing in tune? I think they kind of did it a few times.

I have seen Ray Charles wank a few notes. Does that mean he couldn't sing? Jimmy Buffet, Led Zepplin, I used to be a MAJOR concert goer. Even Queen left something to be desired on one of the shows I heard.

And have you EVER HEARD BOB DYLAN?

I look at an overall artist,how they motivate their fans, how much they deliver for what people expect. And in every case, SHE DELIVERS. I salute her songwriting which comes from HER, not a formula of other people writing FOR her. I applaud her business sense, which is about a $50 million dollar empire. You can't fake that Jim, I am sorry but again, I repeat it, you have a right to your opinion, but that is it. Your opinion. You are in an incredibly small minority and it sounds like a LOT of sour grapes.

Your desire to denigrate her on some point to me is ludicris. But understandable. I deal with it every day in an industry where way too many people don't realize that their ship has sailed and it is past their day. It is easy to sit back and complain about everything.

Our parents did it to when we came up with the Beatles, Elvis, Dylan, Boston, Styxx, Aerosmith, Springsteen. There parents did it when they came up with Sinatra, Tony Bennet, Dean Martin, and THEIR parents did it when it wasn't Al Jolson, Sophie Tucker, and Bing Crosby.

The only thing constant is the people complaining about it.

MAB

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Ok "Our song"...I do know it as it happens....It starts off as a straight rip off off "Honey I am home" by Shania Twain...although that lady has a far better voice. Then it uses the done to death structure of many many country songs that have gone before it. Even country people say the same...there was a thread here somewhere when she first hit the scene where most people slated her as not being country or original enough and not being much use as a singer.....
The lyrics are nothing special saying nothing new and neither is the performance. I will not waste time with a critique.
How can people who are supposedly steeped in country music say she is original?

She has a nasally whiny voice that sounds like she has been breathing pure helium. Her diction is awful very few words are clearly understood and god knows where she would be without Melodyne.
Perhaps that is why folk like her.....SHE HAS A COUNTRY VOICE...LOL.....sorry just teasing with that last bit.

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I guess that is it Jim. I surround myself with mediocrity. Man, again, of all the stupid statements you seem to constantly make you always find a way to say another one don't you. I bow to your obvious magnificence and plead my obvious ignorance. Sorry that I just don't have the unflinching ability or taste that you do.

M

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Taylor Swift is in a lucky position in that she's seemingly smart and surrounds herself with smart people. If she plays her cards right, I can see her having a longer career than most.

The challenge of being a young star like Taylor is eventually your audience grows up. The question becomes are you able grow as well and remain relevant as your fans age, or do you end up a guilty pleasure which no one takes seriously anymore?

Taylor has a shot. Pity artists like the Jonas Brothers, who'll have an uphill battle to gain credibility once Disney is finished with them.

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Marc Bob Dylan sings like a wasp in a jar. We all make mistakes and hit bum notes every now and then......BUT should be able to occasionally put in a good one.......I judged her on her best performances.....her top dollar produced records.... It was far from good....studio engineer had to work ovetrime with her... I heard her sing live it was a case of looking to find the in tune notes rather than the bum notes. God awful by anyones standard.
No sour grapes just an ear for good music and knowing what I like and what is not up to an acceptable professional standard.
Your desire to praise gratuitously is understandable....it goes with the territory..... I see it every day.....you must bite your tongue a lot saying such nice things about folk with such god awful talent/ability.
I am more honest and frank in my approach and people take me as they see me. They know they will get the truth.

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"Honey I'm home"? I just listened to it. Now this is a song that could have been written by a 50-something Nashville journeyman songwriter. It could have been pulled from the middle his pile. How would my dad put it? "Fair to middling". Not remarkable but then I guess I would be bashing Twain.


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I like Taylor Swift. I do question her live performance ability, but not her writing, instincts on her career or her mastery in the world of commercial success. She's scores 100% on all those. Her live singing, for her age, is still above average. It's HARD to sing in front of huge audiences filled with every past and current star in the biz. Our JPF members say the only time they were ever nervous performing live, were in front of the JPF crowd filled with other nominees. And a few of these folks were already Grammy, Oscar, Emmy, Tony and Clio winners. (Clio's are for commercials if you don't know it).

Like Carrie Underwood (who is a much better singer, but not a writer of any note that I am aware of) she's the real deal.

By the way, did Chris Young win anything or perform? I missed the show?

Brian


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Ahhh the regular Taylor Swift thread. What would we do without it. The same old lines being trotted out to tell us why Taylor is terrible.

I agree with Marc about the generational thing (although I know you didn't frame it like that Marc), older generation complaining about the quality of the 'new' music and how it was better in their day and so on. I hear it with people my age now with regard to their kids music compared to the music they listened to which their parents thought was bad which they didn't like. I smile to myself.

I personally think Taylor Swift is good. I enjoy listening to her music. I listen to a lot of music styles singer and artists. Why? Because I like the sound of it, what they do to a song, how they put it across, the phrases they use. Simple. It appeals to me. Will everyone agree with me, no. But to trot out the same old lines is a bit like a broken record (back in the day when it was better to get a ....and on and on)

I watched a great programme on TV a couple of days ago: Diane Warren (whose songs I love) in front of a Piano being interviewed and playing a few of her songs. Two lovely stories: the first was when her dad took her to music lessons after one the music teacher told her dad not to waste time and money, as far as they were concerned Diane had no future in the music industry. That got a laugh from the audience. Lucky they didn't pay any heed to them.

And her first paying gig, she was playing piano in a bar or restaurant (i can't remember) and the owner came over to her and said 'I'll pay you $25 to stay quiet'. She took the money.

Anyway roll on the thread.....

Cheers

Alan

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Originally Posted by Samuel (joe) Harris
"Honey I'm home"? I just listened to it. Now this is a song that could have been written by a 50-something Nashville journeyman songwriter. It could have been pulled from the middle his pile. How would my dad put it? "Fair to middling". Not remarkable but then I guess I would be bashing Twain.


I never said Honey was anything special just said Swift ripped it off. So if Honey is nothing special how can a rip off be any better.

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Wow this tired thread and debate never goes away lol

What's amazing and amusing to me is how when someone tries to drill a point to another they make it so one directional. Like the other point is not valid at all. Like most politics.

It's very simple
If you can't accept WHY then at least understand WHY


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So, basically we're all agreed that Taylor Swift, whoever she/he may be, is the next Bob Dylan? Is that about a fair summing up?

Originally Posted by Marc Barnette

I have seen Ray Charles wank a few notes. Does that mean he couldn't sing?


I guess this means something different in the US? lol

Dan smile

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different kind of wanking

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Well that's a relief (no pun intended).

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Once these pop stars have had their fiftenn minutes of fame they will probably not have the talent to cope with discerning adult audiences who are not so much interested in fads, images and high levels of infatuation as impressionable teenagers.
I also think that a lot of people have difficulty in forming an objective opinion which is at odds with the majority.......they would rather follow the herd instinct even though the herd have no idea why they are following each other and no idea where they are going. They do not want to be at odds with any of the others.
I form my own opinions based on my experience and taste. The herd usually have a different agenda.

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MAB, Now you've gone too far. It's one thing being quick to defend Taylor Swift. But saying the Beach Boys once sang out of tune during a concert and then implying that Bob Dylan can't sing!!!

That's just wrong. That's just wrong. I'm very disappointed in you.


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Originally Posted by Big Jim
The herd usually have a different agenda.


moooooooo!

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Dylan was ranked 7th from the top in the list of the 100 greatest singers of all time by Rolling Stone magazine.

Of course, they might be biased smile

Scott




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Scott, now you're a man of taste and discernment. Of course I knew that from listening to your music. But it's good to see it also extends to your appreciation of popular vocalists.

Last edited by Dan Sullivan; 04/05/11 01:16 AM.

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Bob Dylan great innovator poet and songwriter.......not the best harp player or guitar strummer I have ever heard but could get by enough for the type of music he made.....BUT A SINGER.......WHOA..... THE GUY CAN HARDLY SPEAK NEVER MIND SING.....top 7 greatest singer?......who judged him and what strange substances were they on when they did? And who were the other 99 in the list. I would not even put him in the top ten singers in the street where I live.
As I said he sounds like a wasp in a jar ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz

The Beach boys were a close harmony group and that is very hard to produce live...OK they had a bad day once but generally wrote great songs and performed well..... Brian Wilson VERY SAD should have retired gracefully rather than make a fool of himself...as he has done recently. I saw him live fumbling about... he looked like a rabbit caught in headlights. If not for the great musicians who performed alongside him would have really bummed.

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Any person hired by the University regardless of the person's job description eg, faculty, plant personnel, principle investigators, contractors and sub-contractors hired by contractors that may be required to or have the need to restrict any fire protection equipment.






company employee list

Last edited by Medford; 04/05/11 08:50 AM.
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Originally Posted by Medford
Any person hired by the University regardless of the person's job description eg, faculty, plant personnel, principle investigators, contractors and sub-contractors hired by contractors that may be required to or have the need to restrict any fire protection equipment.

company employee list


Hey Medford you've been listening to Bob Dylan again haven't you.

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Hey Big Jim:

I won't list the top 100 but here are the top ten:

1. Aretha Franklin
2. Ray Charles
3. Elvis
4. Sam Cooke
5. John Lennon
6. Marvin Gaye
7. Bob Dylan
8. Otis Redding
9. Stevie Wonder
10. James Brown

Dylan has used many voices and "wasp in a jar" is one of them. The reason he is a great vocalist is that he knows which songs need that "wasp in a jar" sound. smile

You need it for "Like a Rolling Stone". You don't need it for "Lay Lady Lay".

But hey, at least Taylor isn't in the top ten - that's gotta take some of the sting away smile

Scott

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I can't stand Rolling Stone Mag, they are just WAY more political than music and to extremely one sided politically.. so much it interferes.

There album list isn't the best layout either, they have Dylan like three times in top 10 albums of ALL time. They just love him to death. Maybe more than Obama smile

And there Rock Guitarist list was a complete joke, ANY list that has Steve Howe & Van Halen at numbers #69 & #70
Is completely whacked out of there minds....


With Lou Reed ahead of both of them as well as Dicky Betts GET REAL!!!


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It is not so much who is in the top ten or top 100 but who and what is left out. Whole eras and genres seem to be dismissed and forgotten. I am not saying that those on the list are not great singers or performers BUT hey most are way way overestimated and out of kilter as to their placings in an all time list of greats. It seems to be compiled from people with a very narrow taste and view point.

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fifteen minutes of fame ? She has sold 20 million cd's.

Tom


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There are a lot of detractors of Taylor. So what? There are always different opinions about anyone. That is ok. It is quite ok with me that Big Jim does not like her. His call. Certainly does not affect how I feel about her.

Tom


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Marc ---- eloquently stated.

Tom


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