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OK, here's a reality check; When you perform at a venue, you're there for one reason: Live music brings in customers, who bring the money. Who benefits? The venue owners. Not you! Like they beer, and the food, you're there for one reason and one reason only; for the patrons to come into that venue, consume, and spend. Do you think the owners' suppliers provide the food and beverages at no charge to the owner? Of course not! So why, then, do you provide your services for no compensation? And, in many cases those providing the free entertainment are not treated very well at these venues. After all who is going to respect you if don't value and respect yourself?
Here's a case in point: I got a call from two great songwriters who are based in Dallas. They wanted to hire me and also to contract a guitarist, to accompany them on three songs at a writer's night at a popular venue here in Nashville. They would spend a lot of money on airfare to get here, a hotel, and a car rental. We're talking a couple of thousand dollars between the two of them. During our initial phone conversation I tried to talk them out of it by telling them there's no value, to their career in it. When I asked why they were willing to do this, their response was that "It's a right of passage." They insisted. Anyway, I told them I would do it with no rehearsal for $75. I would also contract a guitarist for $75. That's $150 for about 14 minutes on stage. Ok, to sum up, it cost these women about $2,000 for this "rite of passage. Oh, it gets better; the venue even made them pay for all of our minums/cover charges at $8.00 a head. How's that for a slap in the face! As it turned out, these women, like most people, did it for ego gratification and some neurotic need for validation, and later admitted they had learned their lesson the hard way.
Besides the two previous reasons, there are many other reasons why people do open mic's; to test their material is one of the commonly heard reasons; also to network with other writers and musicians. These are very good and valid reasons. However, such performances need not be conducted in a venue in which someone is benefiting financially because you're bringing in the customers. (Remember? The ones who bring the money!) You can do open mic events anywhere; participant's homes, churches, and many other places, where you're not being exploited.
Because of Open Mic's, Jam's, Writer's nights, and other forms of free entertainment, which have been prevalent since the early 1980's, those who used to earn a living working in these venues have gone the way of the blacksmith.
As a songwriter/performer you provide a service. You must value that service, and not allow yourself to be exploited. If you're working for free your conditions will never improve. It's like the old saying: "Why buy the cow when you're getting the milk for free." I believe that we're are either a part of the solution, or a part of the problem. It's our choice. I choose to be a part of the solution. How about you?

Last edited by Johnny T; 03/28/11 04:59 PM.
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Well, Johnny, you make some good points. I'm not a performer so I don't have a dog in the fight. But it's hard to argue that the owner isn't making dollars and cents and that whatever the amateur performers are getting out of it is far less tangible.


Write from your heart, not what you think others want to hear.

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Well, Johnny, I ain't flyin' to Nashville just to do an open mike, even if it's at the Bluebird (which it probably never would be anyway).

That said, I do do open mikes (closer to home, though--last one was five miles away). I do open mikes for three reasons, none of which have anything to do with whether the venue owner is making money: (1) I get to hone my performance skills--I treat each open mike like a miniature concert, and get to see what works, and what doesn't--and also what others do; (2) I get to try out new material, in a relatively risk-free situation; and (3) I can trace every single paying gig I've ever got back to someone hearing me at an open mike.

And I expect that even if I were making tons of money (I sure ain't yet), I would still do open mikes, for the three reasons above.

Joe

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Open mics are the only venue I have to test out new material and play out in front of folks. Here, open mics aren't as prevalent, so it doesn't seem like that big a competition for paid performers.

However, I do believe that the "host" of the open mics might be getting some compensation for their time and equipment use.

Kevin


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Hey Johnny, good seeing you here! Folks, Johnny's an A-1 bassist here in town.

I look at it like this: an open mic or writer's night should be to live gigs as a demo is to a master. There's a need for them They expose new talent to the club's audience. They give amateurs a chance to get on-stage experience. As Joe said, they give people a chance to try out new stuff. I don't think they should have cover charges or be held on the weekend, but other than that I don't think they are the problem. It is clubs that want to be paid to let someone play that are the problem. There are a lot of those. Why are there a lot? Because there are a lot of people who will pay to play.

Musicians will cut each other's (and subsequently their own) throats to get on a stage in an empty club and play for free. I've been saying that for years. And, playing for free advertises that you will play for free. It takes a long time to lose that reputation. When I first got to Nashville, I was always broke. I would play three sets if someone opened the refrigerator and the light went on. It was when we had children that I drew the line. It took a while, but amazingly enough, people started paying me.

Anyway, bottom line for me is that I don't mind writer's nights if they don't charge a cover charge and aren't on weekends.

Good thread, Johnny!

Mike


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Mike Dunbar Music

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Johnny, you make some valid points. I happen to host an open mic though, and I do it to give guys a chance to hone their skills so that one day they'll be good enough to play paying gigs.Quite frankly it's also an outlet for some folks to get onstage who never WILL be good enough to get paying gigs. I played lots of open mics when I started out to get my name out there, hook up with other musicians, network,and hone my skills. I still show up and play one on occasion just for fun, because playing for me is an addiction, and I DO get compensated 5 or six nights a week, so to me it's no big deal. It's also an excuse to plug my PAYING gigs. It's also a good way to get your foot in the door of a venue you're trying to get into.


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I do open mics for relaxation, enjoyment and to meet fellow performers. We use it as a social gathering and to keep up with what is happening in other bands and venues etc. Not so much original material is played round our way so we play covers mostly and most performers are in bands performing covers for a living in any case. All open mics have a paid house band who provide pa etc we tend to rotatae albeit at a much reduced rate and the invited guests get free drinks food etc. I would never dream of paying to perform and do not know anyone who would play for free as a rule unless it was as a favour or for charity.
I have a simple rule they pay me.....not the other way round.
From what I gather over in the States (the home of capitalism)there is a queue around the block full of sad musicians waiting to pay to play and get ripped off at free open mics. HAHAHA we are not that stupid here in the UK.

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Mike's right. None of the open mikes I go to, or have gone to, charge performers (and if any did, I would not go there). Most also do not charge a cover for the audience, either. Of course, if it's a commercial establishment, you're kind of expected to buy food and drink; myself, I can't eat before a performance (bothers the butterflies), and I don't drink alcohol, so I'm pretty cheap.

The open mikes at the Bay City Arts Center used to have a cover charge (for audience, not performers), but we eliminated that, on my suggestion; we just leave the 10-gallon "donation" jar out prominently, and people throw money in it, and we never have to say a word. And last time, the auditorium was packed.

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All of the above viewpoints are valid in my humble opinion. I do them sometimes to hone my skills, try out material and meet other musicians (and get my foot in the door at establishments).

The real problem though is that the supply of musicians greatly outstrips the demand. There are way more players than gigs. So if you are not there, someone else will be. If you want the good paying gigs around here, you have to be extremely good and you have to be persistent and capable at marketing.

I played at an open mic a couple of weeks ago and another open micer gave me his CD which has Emmylou Harris and Nanci Griffith singing backup on it.


Colin

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NO ONE HAS TO PLAY ANYTHING.

Create your own gigs. Charge what you can get in the market place. They have gigs like that here. They are called cover music gigs or the clubs that do a cover charge. Work your way in (over years and years) and get to where you can bring in enough to pay you to play. Charge what you feel you are worth.


There are also about 35 of them a night going on and for every slot there are 100-500 people waiting to play each one. It is called Supply and demand. Except the Bluebird where there are 25,000 who have auditioned and are waiting to play three songs on a Sunday night or the 120 that show up to play on Monday night and 22 get to play.

That is the great equalizer in all of this. No one HAS to play anything. It is a choice, you know it going in. You are one of around 50,000.

Charge what you are worth.

But how much are you paying the venue when there is no one in the place, for electricity, insurance, rent,food cost, labor costs, advertising? Songwriters are water and tea drinkers. They can't afford anything else. How much do you think you make a night on them? How much are you personally willing to pony up to make up for running the place when no one is there who pays money?

I have seen a LOT more clubs close in this town than open. How many are still there that you knew about 3 years ago? Five years ago? Ten years ago?

Again around 35 clubs a night with standing line for people waiting to play them.

But no one has to play anything. There is always the living room.

MAB

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I haven't played an open mike (I spell it Mike because it's pronounced that way, Mic is pronounced Mick)in 8 years.

They were all about bringing in a crowd to buy drinks on a weeknight. Some venues might be kind enough to ask you to play solo on a weekend night for a cut of the cover charge. The only people that I've ever seen buying drinks and food were the other musicians.

It's a trend for bar and restaurant owners. They save money. Go to any town on Craigs list, you'll find weekday open night offers on the musician thread. Meanwhile the pro's who used to play weeknight gigs are now mowing lawns and picking up scrap metal for a living.

If I read someone say "Hone Your Skills" again. I'll puke.


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HONE YOUR SKILLS!!!


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BLECH! BUICK!

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Ben,

Does that mean you are opposed to open mics? If there weren't open mics, I would have never played live in public. They are the only outlet for newbies like me. It sure beats the places going karaoke only.

Kevin


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No Kevin. I'm opposed to exploitation of musicians for profit. Open mikes have there place.

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I spell it mic because open mike reads as if my zipper was left undone.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

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Well.... Mike.. the girls are here...

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To anyone questioning the validity of the "open mic",

I would ask you a question. Have you played ANY gigs in the past 8-10 years? The reason I ask is that anyone who has been playing and paying attention knows how difficult it is for any club to stay in business at all. Anyone who only sees this from the performers standpoint doesn't look at anything.

If you think that clubs are getting rich on the "talent" of the writers and artists, you haven't been counting up the reciepts at the end of the night. Or you haven't visited the clubs that "used to be open."

About 10 years ago, the majority of live music venues had had enough. Most of them went to karaoke. Dealing with writer/artists that bring almost no people in to drinking or eating nothing, spending no money, tipping no one, only to be sued by someone who got tremendously drunk and drove home and getting a DUI or in an accident, aside from the people who were dancing on the bar and fell, tripped over a stool and fell, fell in the bathroom, didn't like the service and sued. Then toss in a "No smoking" ban and why even be in the music industry alone. Also two or three dozen constantly changing OSHA regulations and why even bother?

I don't know what any of you do for a living but mine is working with artists and writers. And 90% of them come to Nashville because Chicago, LA, New York, Seattle, Athens, Atlanta, and just about every other major city that USED to feature live music, DON'T have venues anymore.

They went to open mics because of a night they had that was dead anyway and the writer/artists will do less damage than keeping the TV on (which they do) and whatever extra business they get is gravy.

So there is a pecking order. You play the open mics because until you get known, there is nothing else. Period. There is not a choice. There are no venues.

If you can start bringing people in, you might get an opportunity to play regularly and possibly point someone in the right direction. If not, there is not really a back up. You can be on the Internet. With a billion other people a day. Good luck at getting known.

MAB

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Open mics are great for a way of trying out material and just getting to play - and if you're any good, you might get a gig or two out of it.

I suspect that the situation in somewhere like Nashville is a bit more competitive than Belfast, Cork, or even music city Dublin - there is more of a blurring here of the lines between an 'acoustic night' and an 'open mic' - I found places in England to be the same, to be honest. Much more relaxed at the grass roots level! smile

Dan smile

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Johnny,

I am not sure why you're upset? You warned the person, they still wanted to pay you. You've earned your way up to the point that people hire you to play. Congrats! That's the way it's supposed to work. And if it really bothered you, you could have turned down the gig and someone else like Mike Dunbar might have gotten paid instead. (In fact, I am sure he'd be happy to take any future paying gigs you want to turn down).

There's something called Musical Tourism you must be aware of. It sounds like these ladies were exactly that... and people pay money all the time to have fun in another town or have some amazing experience. Imagine how cool it is to say I went to Nashville and performed my music at a venue with 2 seasoned backing musicians? Sounds like a lot of fun from a tourist point of view. There are so few paid gigs in most towns that these ladies aren't really even in that world. So they had a wonderful life experience they couldn't get for free nor could they have gotten paid to do it. Audiences aren't coming to hear weak music. They aren't even coming out much anymore to hear great music. It's a sad truth.

These artists are essentially hiring a venue and audience. They didn't bring in the audience (or much of it) so the venue provided it as well as the lighting/sound/staff/food/drink etc. These ladies hired you to play and a venue to play in and got an audience and the bragging rights to their friends back home that they played that venue in Nashville, likely leaving out the details that they paid to play. But that's okay, they paid for the priveledge and the tourist experience. That's how it works. If they could really bring in an audience in another city, they'd be paid to be there. But they couldn't. Instead, the venue brought in most of the audience for them so they paid for it in return.

Brian


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Ditto on Brian's comment. As the economy changes business, one must change the way they do business. Think outside the box. For several years I performed at karaokes because they provided a larger audience than open mics and live shows - and if you pick the right DJs, you get some good support because you're helping them draw people to their show. All you need is whatever media (CD, flash drive, etc.) they can use with their system with music only and harmonies if necessary and you.
Once you've developed a fan base for yourself and the DJ,bring your business cards containing info on what website your songs are sold and have some CDs handy for the impulse sell. It helps that whenever you record your CDs that you also record music only versions(music only versions should include harmonies). There's very little $$$ invested with this method and you don't have to stay up as late.

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I agree with Brian and Summeoyo. This business is super tough to get into, and I've always heard "you have to spend money to make money". Whether live, radio, etc., you do have to spend money one way or another. I started when I was 16, got more serious when I was 20, started taking my cassete tapes to radio stations I knew of, telling them I was going to be the next Michael W. Smith. They smiled and me, talked with me, and told me what I had to do...basically, spend more money on my recordings and hone my skills...SPEND MORE TIME & MONEY! My ex brother-in-law moved to Nashville about three years ago doing busboy work, investing what money he could into demos and networking. He now has songs on Grey's Anatomy and One Tree Hill and just talked with a major label in Nashville.

Johnny, you got a nice trip out of it and possibly more exposure, and it didn't cost you, that's awesome. I hope those women made the best of their experience and can build on it, yours as well!

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Hey Johnny,

I hear what you'er saying. Are they wasting their money ?

Heck who knows, as long as they are well informed and wish to spend it, I guess.

Like nitepiano above, I was playing in bars and clubs at about 18, having learnt music through my teenage years.

You went out there, got together with a bunch of guys, rehearsed, and found the venues, and got paid too. Likewise, I walked into more than one radio station, but had the contacts to do so.

Bottom line ? There simply aren't the venues anymore. Add to that, an amatuer contingent who have always wanted to be "on the stage", and you have a recipe where no-one gets paid.

In my day ( I'm in my forty's ) there were pro musicans, and nothing else, and nothing in-between. You could make a damn good living, just playing what the venue, and the punters of the venue required. Pack up, on to the next gig of the night.

Open mic's ? They weren't really needed. Bands would invite younger less experienced muso's to play with them. Then they would learn, and take it from there.

You probably consider your situation morally wrong. Me too. When you have to pay to play, ANY standard you once had, is now diminished to zero.

It's a tough one to consider, but being old, it doesn't worry me. If the punters want to pay to see someone who has to pay to play, well, that's just the way the world is.

cheers, niteshift

PS - my next bright idea might have to be a travelling open mic night. You can squeeze a dollar out of everyone, and no-ones the wiser.

PPS - I do however consoder open mics a great venue for trying out new material on an unsuspecting and positive audience.

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I dunno what all the fuss is about.....if someone wants to fritter away money on wasted causes.....let them. Folk waste money on a whole host of ridiculous luxuries that serve little purpose...at least the people in question are helping our fellow musicians with a bit of paid gigging in this scenario. I and a lot of folk I know would gladly provide a similar service if the money was right. I know folk who spend obscene amounts of money on jumping out of planes with a bit of a sheet tied to them or jumping off bridges tied to stretchy ropes to get their kicks.

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Johnny I hope you come back to talk about this, I don't think anyone is trying to be offensive. But I think people have made a couple of good points as to why it happens.

I spent my college years playing NUMEROUS places around here. I stopped for about two years after I graduated because life catches up, now things have settled down I'm back on the trail. In just those two years probably 50% of the venues I used to play at have closed. Some of them have survived by charging covers, but the majority are juggling bills. In the last two months I know of one venue that went under and another that is hovering on the brink.

There are a couple of reasons for that - firstly, coffee shops are being pushed out by chains like Starbucks - people would rather go there than risk trying somewhere different. Bars are being squeezed by chains too - around here its the Greene Turtle and BWW that are two of the bigger ones. Again, few of those support local live music.

That means the budget of the little guy is smaller, with less money to pay musicians. The open mics bring in a lot of customers for free without the hassle of booking anyone except a host. If those venues can make a few extra bucks off a cover and drink minimum and still pack the house then it makes sense to do so. They are, unfortunately, not a charity.

Here's part two of this. My fiancee was a ballroom dancer in college. They have competitions called ProAm which are basically competitions where people pay a professional dancer to dance with them and make them look better. This amateurs cover the professionals travel expenses, entry fees, meals, all the rest while at the competition. In total those expenses are usually $1000+ but more realistically near $5000. These amateur dancers get nothing more out of it than the pleasure of dancing with someone great. The concept is embraced because the pro's can make money and the Amateurs have a great time. Yea, they could do it for free with someone on their own level but they don't want to - they want to feel like a star at an exclusive competition with some of the best dancers in the world. The market gives them that oppotunity.

Now to relate that to the example you gave - the ladies essentially paid you for your time, paid the entry fee to the gig and got to play in one of the biggest musical cities in the world to a crowd who was also paying to be there. Its a huge ego trip and its kinda fun.

Its tough to hold the venue at fault because they are doing what they need to so they can pay their bills at the end of the month. If they can fill the joint with a cover, drink minimum and have people pay to perform then they get to stay in business and not turn into a starbucks, greene turtle or BWW.

I understand what you're saying about not being exploited - those serious about careers in the business could pay out a lot of money to these places, but then there are people like you who are kind enough to come in and say "Hey buddy, thats not the right way to go." If they still want to play the packed clubs with a cover, then so be it. Thats their thing.

What you have to understand is that the performers ARE the customers, and the venue's attraction is the open mic, much like a glorified Karaoke bar.

YES it devalues the paid performing musician, but at the end of the day, the venues just don't have the budget to pay big bucks for a professional musician.

My final point is this - I love open mics because I can test new material and a new venue, but I won't pay a cover to play one. I don't think its "right" that venues should charge, but I can see why they do it and if people are willing to pay to play then its a practice that will be very hard to stop.

EDIT: Big Jim reminded me of my final, final point which is this - last year I paid out a stack of money taking my car Autocrossing. Was it because I thought I was going to become a famous race car driver? No - I was because it was a ton of fun and a huge rush. This is no different.

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Hey John, yep, I think you summed it up in a nutshell.

Big Jim, I think Johnny ws concerned about this....

Quote
As it turned out, these women, like most people, did it for ego gratification and some neurotic need for validation, and later admitted they had learned their lesson the hard way.


We all try here, to give a valid sense of reality, and if someone is being morally conned, well, I think we should all say so. There are much better ways to be "validated" than paying someone a stack load of money to say "you're one of us" when in reality you're really not. If it's spelt out, that's fine. If it's not, then it's taking candy from babies, and as the bottom of the heap that songwriters are, I would have problems with it too.

cheers, niteshift

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Let me clarify my opinion. I don't have a problem with an organized open night with a paid host musician. I do have a problem with a bar or restaurant that has never had live music before posting an ad on Craigs list offering anyone to come in off the street to entertain their clientele. I live in a tourist area and it's prevalent here. The bottom line is that they want live music and they don't want to pay for it. I doubt if they even know that they have to pay the PRO's.

When I first started playing guitar, a banjo playing friend and I would go to the beach and play on the street corner. We didn't do it for money, we did it for fun. Another musician friend had a regular gig at a bar nearby. He gave me a similar lecture that MD did about self worth and playing for free. By playing on the street corner, we were taking money out of his pocket. There were no open container laws then so people could bring a cooler of beer and listen to free music on the street corner instead of going into the bar.

We do have a restaurant here that offers an open mike on Thursday. The player that gets the most applause gets a $200 three hour paying gig on Saturday. It's more of a contest.

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GOLF!!!

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Originally Posted by niteshift
Hey John, yep, I think you summed it up in a nutshell.

Big Jim, I think Johnny ws concerned about this....

Quote
As it turned out, these women, like most people, did it for ego gratification and some neurotic need for validation, and later admitted they had learned their lesson the hard way.



We all try here, to give a valid sense of reality, and if someone is being morally conned, well, I think we should all say so. There are much better ways to be "validated" than paying someone a stack load of money to say "you're one of us" when in reality you're really not. If it's spelt out, that's fine. If it's not, then it's taking candy from babies, and as the bottom of the heap that songwriters are, I would have problems with it too.

cheers, niteshift


They were warned......they knew what they were doing. I have no problem with this...I am not a snatch and grabber where money is concerned.... if anything I am too honest with the public and sometimes knock back work for the very reasons discussed.....but hey we all have to put food on the table and if someone wants self gratification and an ego trip and will not listen to the advice given....let them. Some big business music scams do a hell of a lot worse and little is said. I take the point about giving good advice and will always follow the moral route but would take their money if they still insisted on doing what they wanted....better them dealing with someone honest like me than a shark or real rip off merchant that plagues our business.


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Johnny, I get what you're saying..."Don't feed the sharks!" In your mind, the bar owner is the enemy...exploiting eager amateurs and making a profit off of their being naive. You're saying, do it where you're not being exploited.

IDK about the rest of you, but I have much more fun playing in a bar. Unlike some of you, I like to drink and I like to drink and play even more! I can't really do that too much on a paying gig, but an open mic is laid back, I get to jam with new people, hear new stuff and they get to hear my stuff that I wrote that the rock band I'm in doesn't play (cuz it's not rock). Also, you get a lot more exposure at a bar than you would at a church or someone's house, IMO. Music lovers tend to hang out at bars to see live music.

Here in Cincinnati, they don't charge for playing or attending an open mic. The person running it usually gets paid though, which is fair because he or she brought all of the backline equipment. I'm sure Nashville is different because it's so much more competitive, bar owners are saying, "Hey, I can make some bucks off of this!" However the 3 times I was there, not one club charged a cover charge (although the drinks were a little steep, $6.50 for a Beam and Coke). And I went to about 15 clubs total within the 3 visits. The bands all played for tips.


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NOW you ARE into my territory.

Brian, about 75% of the peopel I work with ARE musical tourists.They are people from all walks of life, Doctors, laywers, advertising people, nurses, etc. you name it. They come in to have that "really cool time" in Music City.

They do come to our bars, our resturants, hotels, do demos in our studios, do workshops, seminars (my tours) play writer's nights and open mics (another reason that I am a big supporter of them) and have a great time seeing Music City for something except a three minute Kenny Chesney video.

That is what I do. If I can help them leave with something tangible, a song, recordings, pictures, etc. things they will never forget that is the deal. And in the process you do make great friends for life, often go to their homes and they return the favor, showing you their world.

The musical tourist business is around $200 million dollars a year. Not all to me of course, LOL! But that is what it is here.

MAB

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Thanks for the post. An interesting concept. Will make me think about any future gigs I do.


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Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
GOLF!!!

I think that sums it up quite nicely!


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Marc, your golf analogy is great! Do you mind if I use it?


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

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That's why I do em' bud.Of course.

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I think it is more like fishing.....Now you spend a lifetime researching the habitat and the many species living there, studying, analysing, perfecting the art of baiting and casting and buying expensive equipment and and and ...you spend all day catching nothing...when along comes a kid with a bit of string and a bent pin and catches a whopper.

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The only time I have problems with all this is when lies are being told to make money, or abusive charges are levied to take advantage of people who don't understand they are being ripped off. Unlike Mike, I think the Golf analogy doesn't fit because I am unaware of Golf salesmen claiming if you buy all that stuff you'll get entry into and likely win the Masters. And promises like that of varying types are made (and are known to be 100% lies) to people all the time in the music scenarios. If someone is being told the TRUTH all along the way, then buy lots of golf gear, great. If Marc tells them the truth every step of the way and doesn't over promise or over suggest some benefit will result during musical tourism other than fun memories, and he doesn't price gouge way over market value simply because he can get away with it, then fantastic. But the Golf Analogy is not really a good analogy for the music rip off business.

Brian


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"Unlike Mike, I think the Golf analogy doesn't fit because I am unaware of Golf salesmen claiming if you buy all that stuff you'll get entry into and likely win the Masters."

Brian, when I use a golf analogy (and it was a joke, Marc, I've used the golf analogy for several years) I never, repeat, NEVER have used it to analogize with a company that makes false claims. My entire point of using it is to show folks that a company that is on the up and up is not being unethical by selling services to someone who is not ready for them, just like the golf salesman who did not claim that you'll get entry into and likely win the Masters (and yes, I'm unaware of any who have), selling you expensive clubs. With this caveat, I think the analogy is spot on. My point is, again, that people need to take personal responsibility. Not only should they beware of the many sharks that are out there, but they should make sure that they do not spend their money foolishly and end up blaming others.

If I buy Tiger Woods' golf clubs from an ethical salesman, or if I go to the most expensive, ethically run studio in the world, any disappointment is on me...they did their jobs. If I am lured into a deal with false promises, it is on the service.

All the Best,
Mike


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

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I took Marc's golf analogy to mean that if you look at the number of people who play golf versus the number of people who actually make money from playing golf -- that seems to be about the same ratio in music endeavors. Tons and tons of people play/write/sing -- but very, very few can make a living at it.

Kevin

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You can use just about any analogy to compare to the music biz. But at the end of the day to be any good you need natural talent and aptitude to set you apart from the rest. Even that does not guarantee success......and NOTHING will prevent people from being ripped off...it happens in every industry and every hobby or pastime. People with great talent will often never amount to much and people with very little talent will often achieve fame and fortune in bucketloads.
All the while there are sharks waiting to rip folk off whether they have talent or not.
Heyho..... when I woke up the sun was shining and the birds were singing now it is cold and cloudy and looks like it is gonna rain. Such is life.

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That is exactly what I mean Kevin. It is the people PARTICIPATING in the sport. That is what I am referring to. And the Golf analogy is EXACTLY what it is. As far as the unethical aspect of it, the usuage of celcbrities in products in teh first place could be veiwed as unethical. Wear Haynes and you can play basketball and "be like Mike" Micheal Jackson.

The same could be said for usage of Tiger Woods to advertise clubs, shoes, clothes, etc. It is inferred. That is why you use a celebrity to advertise your product.

It is buyer beware and there are millions of scams out there. that is true in anything, particularly anything involved with the Internet. This one just seems to draw them to the same places.

So I stand behind my golf analogy. I am referring to the amount of people participating verses those who actually make money.

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Hi folks...I just joined yesterday, so this is my first post.
I used to make a living singing and playing my guitar...and teaching in music studios...it wasn't a good living. I made better money playing and singing in classic rock bands playing cover material that filled the dance floor. Now my wife and I mostly play as an acoustic duo...some covers, some obscure music and lots of originals.

We enjoy playing for an audience...bigger audiences are more fun. We played a blues challenge last weekend where the only pay was a ticket to the show and tickets to the big festival. We had a great time. Here was our last song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe1No8qCGgA There was an audience of a few hundred and we'll likely get gigs from it.

We played at two open mics getting ready for the show. We may or may not get work from them. Once in awhile we play an open mic and often it does result in paying gigs. Frankly, we love playing and would play for nothing...it's carrying equipment and setting up that I want to be paid for.

The way I see it...you're either playing for fun or for money...sometimes for both. Networking, getting gigs, honing skills, are benefits. If you don't like the idea of playing and not getting money...don't do it. If you want people to hear you to get a following, an open mic might help.

Maybe if they called them showcases and made you apply for a chance to play, some folks would feel better about it.
I would prefer to be the guy who shows up, plugs in and plays a set...gets a good response from the crowd...than the guy who carries the equipment, schedules the players...listens to everyone and packs up afterward to make few bucks from the bar owner of manager.

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A topic that often raises emotions ....


As someone who has performed in one way or another most of my life; ie singing in church, chorale work, musical theatre, it was a whole different story when i became a singer/songwriter and wanted to perform my own music... I was scared to death.. it was a different ballgame. I joined my local songwriter association and attended their weekly open mic. I gained courage & confidence. The open mic was of great value to me at that time.

Many years later... I still believe a "well run" open mic is a valuable setting yet I seldom attend any more .. When i do, it is for many of the reasons already mentioned .. usually 'self-serving' ... new CD, new material to polish and try in front of an audience, upcoming gigs to promote, potential gig or maybe support a friend who may be playing or hosting.
In general, I do not play for free, especially in a thriving business venue. I save my free playing for charities & benefits.

All that said. I host a local acoustic open mic. I do not host for free. It is a full night AND a lot of work. I get paid the same rate I would be paid if i played a gig for the evening. It is a weekday night. I have strived for and for the most part have succeeded in creating a "listening" room in order to provide a "showcase" setting for each performer.. a lesson for the audience in being respectful of the artists.
I also hire a quality feature artist to play a 40 minute set each week. It is not a lot, but it has become a nice showcase for local artists as well as a filler gig for traveling artists passing through. The owner often draws from the open acts to book weekend gigs.

It is wonderful to watch some new perfomers blossom on stage over time .. just like me.. i remember.


Yes Mike .. open miC grin

All the best
Joanne



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The main probs with open mics are

1. Getting a decent venue.
2. Getting enough good acts to perform.
3. Getting paid.
4. Getting a good appreciative audience.
5. Getting an MC.
6. Getting someone to organise and control the event.
7. Getting good promotion for the event

Unless all these are achieved then the open mic will not be much of a success. The venue must be large enough and comfortable enough for the acts to set up gear and have plenty seating for the audience.
No point in having someone who is unprepared to perform just turn up. Acts should be invited and possibly be vetted first to ensure they conform to minimum standards. It is also a shambles if too many people want to perform then there is arguments or bad feeling about folks left out, or folk who play for too long and try and hog the mic so a good organiser both before and during is a must. The organiser must have approx numbers and a list of all who will definitely turn up. A good fair MC is also a must. He can keep the audience attention whilst equipment is changed and folk set up. A bad MC can ruin an open mic.
Artists should receive some payment or reward for turning up even if it is just free food or a couple of drinks. The person organising should be paid for providing Pa and other equipment plus for the time spent time organising which can be a considerable amount. Cover charges do not work but the bar or restaurant will make money on the drinks etc so cannot expect a free show. Pay to play is just a no no. No one should benefit financially from someones ego trip.
Audiences are usually friends of the entertainers appearing so they must show respect for all the performers not just the ones they are here to support. Some performers are only interested in their bit and can be distracting discourteous to fellow performers and audience. Many people who have attended open mics will know what I mean by those last two points.
Advertising the event is pretty essential, word of mouth is good but a local paper ad and possibly a poster campaign will help. No point in having an open mic and nobody turns up...it happens.

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I get the feeling that a lot of this discussion is being made up as we go along. I have had nothing but good experiences, and memories at the open mic's that I have run or attended. There are those occasional issues that pop up, but nothing that compares to a gig with unevenly tempered "pro" musicians for a full 4 hrs.

If you don't like them or feel that they are exploiting you, don't patronize them. Lots of good points have been brought up concerning them, taken with a grain of salt. Not everything applies all the time.

Looking to play an open mic? Go to the established ones, the ones that have been doing it for a while. In Buffalo there is an open mic thats been running for almost 20 yrs. The same guy is running it too.

Most of the open mics I go to also promote original music. So they are a great place to test the water, if you write your own.

I feel that it is a community kind of a thing. Most of the open mics I do attend are patronized by other musicians or performers that form the basis for this phenom. The folks that show up, play their songs and immediately split don't get remembered.

I have also mined a few open mics for acts for paying gigs too. I think its all about attitude.

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I have both run and attended open mics for many years sadly do not get to do it as much nowadays. Some were well run and supported and some were a shambles. The points I made were just some tips and observations. I am sure that a lot of people can identify with the problems I outlined. There has been a few threads on open mics over the years and lots of opinions agree that some negative things happen. That said open mics can be a great success if they are well run and attended...and the audiences/participants are polite and well mannered.

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For the last two weeks in this town I've attended an Open Mic at a sort of new place here in town. There is no drinking alcohol. It's a coffee shop ministry type of place sort of like the little coffee shops in Books-A-Million without the books. It is some sort of Christian ministry.

The first night I was there only three or four people showed up to play. Nobody actually signed up so they called someone in and two other people sang after them. I think that was it.

The next week, there were about six people showed up. One of them sang to a track of Rascal Flatts "What Hurts The Most." It was odd because I likened it to karaoke but you couldn't hear the Open Mic singer over the LeVox vocal! I thought they didn't play the star vocals on karaoke (but, alas, I haven't ever been to a real karaoke show).

On both of these nights, which were Saturdays, the same group of 8-10 teenagers came in. On the first night, one of them sang and on the second night three of them sort of round robined through about six songs. One of them had a big costume head on and acted like an high school mascot both nights.

It seemed in a way like the Open Mic was set up for these teens - - like they were the stars of the show. That was well and good I guess, and one seemed to stand out above the rest. But I'm 55 and I like to see some maturity rather than be around these wacko teenagers.

The main thing I got out of the Open Mic is how I'm not in Nashville. Up there the Open Mics I've been too have people sitting quietly (or reasonably quietly) while people play. Here it was like Fogerty sang about in Lodi: I wish I had a nickel for every song I sung and ever song I play while the sat there drunk. Except here there was no drinking, just NOISE, lots of NOISE.

I couldn't understand the words to these songs because the vocals were too "hushed" under the music and the crowd NOISE. That's my thing - - lyrics. I want to hear the words. I don't know if it's the acoustics or the board but on everyone except one girl on a keyboard, the words were hard to make out.

Another thing I noticed was a lot of people didn't buy much on these nights.


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Open mics often produce little by way of food/drink purchases. Many have folks sitting with glasses of water only. Or a drink with free refills. But any business that has SOME people in it will still draw paying customers more than a quiet empty place will. People are drawn to gatherings and numbers makes those who stumble in think this must be a happening place.

I've been to every kind and level of open mic that exists and many that shouldn't. I've seen every good and bad thing that can and does happen. I think it should be part of your job development to go, perform and watch. You never know when someone talented might pop in and you should always approach and make friends with them. And even those less talented can make some of the best friends you'll ever have in life (I know from personal experience). Failed musicians can make great team members for you (assuming you have the talent to succeed). My rule always was, if I didn't have a paid gig, I was out every other night mixing with musicians somewhere. Often I'd spend a few nights are open mics, other nights I'd make friends with and go to the best acts in town's shows. I'd watch what they did to build and keep crowds and learn tons AND make friends with their TEAM so perhaps I could recruit their help. I would also make it a point to go to a show of a completely different genre than I was interested in. I'd look for what they did to connect and often learn even more because I was less interested in the music and could observe that much more.

If you aren't being paid to play somewhere, you need (badly) to be out any and everywhere music is happening in your town or nearby towns. Forget genre... meet good people, learn, ask questions (people who help other artist LOVE to get the star treatment themselves and will share all their secrets with you if you are likeable and treat them well). I used to find free sound people who did a great job by buying them some food and drink while they worked as an appreciate for their amazingly good work doing sound. A little positive nudge to people who rarely get positive support or feedback (but certainly get abused if people dislike the sound or whatever they've done) will help you immensley. Even if they don't work for or with you, they will have friends often who will.

Networking. It works. And what works best is telling people thanks (and meaning it) for any help or guidance they offer, even if it's stupid. It's free and so few people ever do it. Even here we'll often see people get reams of advice without thanking anyone, or who only thank those who told them what they already knew and agreed with. Those folks are spinning their wheels and wasting their and everyone elses time.

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
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"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

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Wow... this is an interesting thread. It sure makes me glad I don't perform in public. I'm a songwriter who sings. I want others to do covers of my work. Performing for others is not my bag. If I were younger, unmarried, willing to travel and had money to burn, I might do open mics for an ego trip but other than helping get your type of musical ability and face "out there" it probably won't do much for one's career as a performer except hone your skills... if you have skills.

Many open mics are exactly as John described and it certainly takes alot of audacity to ask the performers to pony up for an entry fee or cover charge. Often, the crowd is there for the fun aspect and completely ignores the singer/performer while the staff hustles drinks. (I know there are exceptions.)

Further, I use a keyboard for my songs and I'd hate to go through all that loading and setup time just for a few moments of "semi-stardom."

For those of you who "eat up this type of venue," good luck and best wishes.

We'll leave a light on for you!

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I have been attending a monthly open mic for about a year now, and in the last couple of months, I have been a regular at a weekly open mic in another venue. In the last year, I have only had a handful of paid gigs including one festival performance, but every one of those gigs has been a direct result of playing at the open mics.

The best parts of the open mics though, are the friendships I have made and the music I have been exposed to.


Kevin Edward Rose
Celtic, Americana, whatever the folk.
Hailed by Performing Songwriter magazine as a "valued subscriber".
More music sold than Elvis and the Beatles combined!*
http://www.KevinEdwardRose.com
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