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A client of mine was told by a representative from a highly respected songwriting organization that she should quit writing songs because her music wasn't country. I couldn't believe my ears. So, I suppose Billy Joel should stop writing songs?

Just shows you what happens if you live in a music town too long and/or go to (or put on) too many song writing seminars I guess. After all, none of us are in it for the sheer enjoyment right?

Sheesh....

I just had to share this....

Bill

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Bill,

What was the context of the conversation. One of the things I constantly go through with my clients are writing pop or other formats,but those formats are closed to outside writers. Rock and pop has been self contained since 1964 and country is headed that direction.

So many publishers are having people bring them something they can't do anything with. If you don't have anything someone can pitch, you are either going to just have to write for yourself or find your own niche with artists.

Everyone should write what they feel. But you can't expect them to be able to participate in some formats that is simply not open to outside work.

MAB

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I agree with what Marc said, but I think the reason why Bill or anybody would be turned off is the guy said...

"You should quit Writing songs"

Pretty lousy thing to say.
Almost sounds like the person misheard the comment and thought that's what he said, songwriters or any dreamers CAN and will mishear and misinterpret things alot smile

But Marcs right the tight restrains on styles & genres is DEVASTATING to the lone songwriter. It really got started in 1964 but did not end there Marc. There was still lots of outside writers all over the market well into the 70's and in Pop in general well into the 80's on etc...

The Best selling artists 1969-1974 Three Dog Night
Didn't write one song themselves...

Countless Pop songs by Madonna and Pat Benatar & Cher and Michael
and a bunch of people we've forgotten about in the mainstream with hits not written by the artists. Then Whitney, Mariah,Celion

Outside writers, meaning the "Artist" didn't write all the songs. Not so much the inner circles limitations regarding the outside writer.

The biggest lost EVER for songwriters is the absence of the
"Stand in front of the microphone only" artists. There used to be countless ones and now, forget it.

Just take one Frank Sinatra or Elvis and think of how many records they sold, now thing of all the songwriting royalties they didn't get ... smile That's ALOT of songs and alot of royalties.



Thanks!
Peace Mike
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Bill, That's the response of a corporate businessman, not a songwriter. If the person who said it claims to be a songwriter, he's just lying to himself.

These commercial music business types have no understanding of why an artist paints, a writer writes, a singer sings, a musician plays or a songwriter writes songs. It's simply beyond the comprehension of someone with the heart of a Jersey City loan shark and the soul of an Enron accountant.

Anyone serious about music or songwriting should have nothing but contempt for the businessmen who run the music companies. They're worse than vultures. A vulture will at least wait until his prey is dead before picking the bones clean.

Last edited by Dan Sullivan; 02/12/11 07:11 AM.

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Yeah, today there's really no alternative to learning how to produce and play your own music, and getting a singer on from time to time. If you don't want to be restricted of the few artists that takes outside songs, that is.

If getting your songs to established artists is your only goal with writing songs, then it makes sense to stick with country, as this is one of the few bastions for this. So, I think the advice she got makes perfectly sense, in a commercial frame of mind.

And MAN that market is tough, when you compete with the Steele's, Wiseman's, Rutherford's, Barnette's ect.!

We can do a lot of things for enjoyment, but frankly, it has to be driven by some carrot. And in the music business, the motivation of money seem to coincide with the motivation of recognition, because if a lot of people love your work, you most likely also will be able to make profit of it.

BUT, country isn't just country anymore either. There's a LOT of country artists that does plain pop/rock music, with just a few country twists, so I still think, if she wants to do it, she can learn how to adapt her pop/rock music to the country market.

In the cycles of popular music, country evolves a few years behind the other mainstream genres, so what's out now in the other genres will most likely influence country in th coming years. An example of that is the new jack swing (groove that came out in r&b in the late eighties/ early nineties. Some years later it turned up in country, and now is a staple in the "new" contemporary country styles.

If you don't participate in the Nashville community of writers, you also most likely need to get around the regular channels of "song recruitment" in Nashville, like producers or knowing the artist yourself. Otherwise you have to dive into making a career in the hierarchy of songwriters there. I think NSAI and many publishers are in that circuit, so that's another reason why the advice makes sense (but are not neccesarily true in a way, that she needs to take it as solid goods).

Fact is, if you write undeniable songs, it doesn't matter which genre it's in, and who you need to please. If you have songs like that, there's always some who can smell the money..

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Originally Posted by billrocker
I couldn't believe my ears.
Well maybe you shouldn't - I suspect that someone is not giving the complete version of events here smile

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I'm remember reading that same sentiment on a thread here not too long ago, that basically only the Country genre doors were still open to "outsiders" and I felt disheartened for a moment. If that were true (and I'm not sure it is) think of all the potential good material that might go missed be it jazz, adult easy listening, pop, blues, and the list goes on. If that is the case is Songwriter's Market pure fiction when in it they welcome submissions for songs in and outside of Country??

I write for pleasure and passion (with of course a hope that someday Barbra will finally sing several songs I have written for her, my musical will be on Broadway, and publishers will be calling me to arrange a lunch date laugh Just kidding!! Well.... wink

The truth is (and I certainly can't be alone) songs outside of country still show up at my doorstep. Should I be rude and not answer the door leaving them out in the cold. It wouldn't feel natural and so I welcome each one with open arms, open ears and open heart, savoring every moment. love

Write on my friends,
Lynn smile


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Pop is just about completely closed to outside writers. There are small circles of producers and writers and artists, all of who are involved and know each other within the circles. No need to go outside of the circles.

Tom


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Even with the few albums we are producing here we are have not used outside songwriters and anticipate doing so very rarely. However, there are a few songs that JPF'ers have written that I would like to use - just need to find the right artist/time/situation.

Tom


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If you designed a car and took your design to Ford, how interested do you think they would be? Same with songwriting......they all have in-house designers.

Gotta start your own car manufacturing company or find a buddy who will.


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I always find no matter what it is things that become self contained get VERY expensive, they start to stink.... and then slowly die. you need to keep bringing in new ideas and new blood... you cannot stagnate...

As if to evidence my point....

Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
One of the things I constantly go through with my clients are writing pop or other formats,but those formats are closed to outside writers. Rock and pop has been self contained since 1964 and country is headed that direction.



By the mid seventies pop and rock became pretty sad... popular at the time but most of it was just crap that people won't admit they listened to.... Country wasn't closed to new ideas and since the seventies .... it has become the bigist Buck generator......

I would say that folk music isn't closed either and as country closes ranks... look at what is emerging...





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Okay okay okay. Funny story about this. This ones for you Mike.

A buddy of mine is named Eddie Swartz. Eddie is from Toronto but lives in Nashville. Very New Yorkish type guy where he lived for many years. I met him about three years ago actually playing on stage with him during the Tin Pan North songwriting festival.

Eddie tells the world's greatest songwriting story. He was writing for SONY in the 80's.He was a pop writer and at that time he was having trouble getting cuts because all the acts were writing their own material. (sound familiar?)

One day he wrote a song by himself that he really liked. He played it for his bosses who listened and then looked him right in the eye and said, "That is the worst song ever written in the history of this company. Don't ever play that song again for anybody here. We don't even want it mentioned." He thought they were joking,but they were deadly serious.

A few months went by and he tried to get the song demoed and they would hear nothing of it. A couple of years went by and he finally got it on a demo session but they told the engineeer to erase the tape after they finished it. The engineer made him one copy for himself and said "Don't play this for anybody. I could get fired for it."

Another couple of years went by. Finally they had a change of management and song pluggers. One of the new pluggers had a meeting with him one day and said "Do you have anything I haven't heard. I know your catalogue and just don't hear anything. Do you have anything new?"

Eddie sheepishly brought out the cassette tape of that song and played it on the stereo. All of a sudden there is a knock on the door and this kind of "cute spikey haired chick" (eddie's words)
popped her head in and said "What is that SONG? I love it and want to record it on my next album!"

The "spikey haired chick" was Pat Benetar.
The song was "Hit me with Your Best Shot."

Nobody knows about this business. If they tell you they do they are full of it. I am probably full of it. But I know that if you believe in something do it. If anyone can make you quit by telling you to, you were never meant to do it.

The guy who told that person that is an idiot. Unfortuntately our business is full of them. I just hope I am never one of them.

MAB

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Originally Posted by Noel Downs

By the mid seventies pop and rock became pretty sad... popular at the time but most of it was just crap that people won't admit they listened to.... Country wasn't closed to new ideas and since the seventies .... it has become the bigist Buck generator......



Totally not the case.
You hear that often but it's such a misplaced concept..

The mid and late 70's there were still more INCREDIBLE albums coming out... It's so obvious yet so may people lose track of dates I guess...

You kidding,Lets see some of what came out in the mid 70's and even late seventies

Songs In The Key Of Life - Stevie Wonder 1976
Born To Run - 1975
Hotel California - 1975
The Stranger - 1977
Rumors - Fleetwood Mac 1976
Aja - Steely Dan -77
Boston - 1976
NIght At The Opera - Queen 1975
News Of The World - Queen 1977
Physical Graffiti - led zeppelin / 1975
Some Girls by The Rolling Stones / 1978
Captain Fantastic - Elton 1975
And Then There Were Three - Genesis 1978
Street Surviver - Lynyard Skynard / 1977
The Wall by Pink Floyd / 1979
Damn The Turpedo's - Tom Petty - 1979
Wish you were here - pink floyd / 1975
Breakfast In America - Supertramp
Rickie Lee Jones by Rickie Lee Jones / 1979
Look Sharp - Joe Jackson 1979
London Calling - The Clash 1979

And there's loads more. And there all DIFFERENT from each other.
Genesis has killer stuff in mid & late 70's and so does Tull, and Yes and The Who like Quadrophenia and Who Are You, Areosmith
The Police, U2, Bowie, Stevie Ray Vaughn,

The radio also had great songs from Kansas, Styx, Foreigner Bob Seeger, Cat Stevens, Paul Simon, Tom Petty etc.. Then there were one hit wonders that had wonderful songs. And groups that had good pop songs but could not move out the GIANTS of the era,
Orleans, Ace, Climax Blues, 10cc, Eric Carmen, Gary Wright, Todd Rungren who also produced "Bat Out Of Hell"

Then even the new age and punk was unique fresh different, debut albums from The Cars, Blondie, The Bee Gee's had great pop songs the whole decade. Plus all the GREAT R&B Barry White and all those GREAT pop groups, The Ojay's The Spinners, Gladis Knight, Harold Melvin, Al Green. Then forget about the jazz and instrumentals that were making it to mainstream radio... Starting with the great George Benson.

Man it does not stop, the only decade comparable is the 60's...
and that one is not as diverse but it has The Beatles & Motown in it and those two are enough to top any decade toppled off with a little Hendrix and Cream The British Invasion, plus all of Woodstock ...lol but really...

No it Couldn't be any clearer! The 70's rule from start to finish. It's the 80's and MTV where the trouble begins lol











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Peace Mike
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Hi Mike, are you disagreeing that pop and rock shrunk as masivly as country grew to become the lead gene... or just that I generalised the quality... which I appologise for yes there were some very good bands and songs came out of the seventies and early eighties in those categories....

I still stand by my comment that things that become self contained ... and that nowdays country is king as the buck earner because the others became self contained... there is not enough diversity to sustain a huge amount of life.





Last edited by Noel Downs; 02/13/11 01:14 AM.



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Hi Noel

Actually just reminding us of how great the 70's were all the way through. And how the mid and later had great & diverse music as well. And POPULAR too.
Many people forget that, lose track of dates and such.

Rock is OVER! the number one genre on this planet is Hip hop my friend, that's a simple fact. Country has grown which is good.
The main reason for that is it's simply more pop and rock based now than ever before. For the writer who does not deal in Hip Hop or Urban based pop, Country is the ONLY way too go and only buck earner if your lucky... I agree with you.

This whole outside writers and inside circle thing,,,,

EVERYTHING has an inside circle, I'm talking about Artists writing all there own songs. That has grown in EVERY genre including Country. Fortunately Country still has names on songs that are not the singer. An outside writer to me is one who is not the artist. The label staff writers, the PRODUCER writers or people who are just in at the moment, are only people who are in at the moment smile

But you NEVER get in for even a second if the persons who's picture is on the cover doesn't do other peoples songs! smile
Like all bands, all singer songwriters and a host of others such as Taylor Swift etc...

So it's always kinda been that way, expect like i said in the past the "sing only" were PLENTY more!


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Hi Bill and fellow JPFrs:

We've "plowed" this ground before... but it strikes a chord near and dear to my heart. I love to create songs and I don't worry too much about the genre. (Sorry, I don't do RAP or Classical... LOL! Insufficient talent!)

I'd be a liar if I said I don't care about the money... 'cause deep down, thats what drives me. On the other hand, I know the odds are very long. If I didn't love it so much, I'd spend more time playing golf and chess. I suppose there is nothing (well nearly) more satisfying than "launching" a new song. As a non-performing songwriter who "sings" most of his own material, I know that the odds are even more stacked against me. (Pity the lyricist who does not sing or play.)

The beauty of it all is that I can spend 24 hours a day listening to my "favorite artist" on my MP3 player and it does not cost me a dime. I can pick and choose from several genres and it allows me to "critique" myself. (Yep, I've thought about firing myself several times... LOL!)

The most important part of this epistle to remember: "All it takes is one!"

My best to all of you,

Dave

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Originally Posted by billrocker
A client of mine was told by a representative from a highly respected songwriting organization that she should quit writing songs because her music wasn't country. I couldn't believe my ears. So, I suppose Billy Joel should stop writing songs?

Just shows you what happens if you live in a music town too long and/or go to (or put on) too many song writing seminars I guess. After all, none of us are in it for the sheer enjoyment right?

Sheesh....

I just had to share this....

Bill


Hey Bill,

Your client doesn't write country ? Thank God for that ! She actually writes real songs. Good luck to her. grin

cheers, niteshift

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I guess I'm dreaming again but I'd like to think that it's ok to write songs in any style, regardless of market potential, and that there would be people out there willing to comment on the craft, not just the potential to make big bucks. Great songs always have and always will transcend genre.

Guess you also have to ask, is this a song marketing discussion or a song writing discussion?

p.s. I'm with Mike...70's rule. It was still real. :>) The 80's was when they finally figured out how to create it on an assembly line and mass produce it.

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What is apparent to me is that writing for other artists has declined over the years......with possibly the exception of country and some manufactured pop bands. Before the mid sixties most popular songs were written by people who in the main did not perform. Most mainstream music since the mid sixties was written by the band or artist performing it. Most modern pop chart music again with the exception of one or two manufactured pop bands are written by the performer or written by the performers team. Todays music is in the main not even about the song or the performance it is about the production.

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Originally Posted by billrocker
I guess I'm dreaming again but I'd like to think that it's ok to write songs in any style, regardless of market potential, and that there would be people out there willing to comment on the craft, not just the potential to make big bucks. Great songs always have and always will transcend genre.

Unless you were there (or if it was in writing), you don't know exactly what was said, so a "grain of salt" is always required.

Yes, it is OK to write songs in any style, in any genre, in any time signature -- but if you are looking for commercial success then you have to do what is marketable (unless you are the artist!).

I write whatever I want to write, when I want -- but I don't expect the market to pay much attention to me (no matter how "great" my songs might be -- and I think I am writing some decent ones nowadays).

Kevin


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I wonder.....how might my work be categorized by this same person? I don't write country, at least I don't think so....but, then again, I'm strictly a lyricist....

Soooo, in the interest of properly informing all of those like me, do you necessarily have to play any kind of instrument, or can you simply write lyrics, and be placed, or maybe more accurately, pigeonholed, into any one genre?


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Depends on who you talk to. Jimmy Webb (By the Time I Get to Phoenix) says "lyric only"writers are totally worthless. He says "you don't get into an elevator and hear "LYRAC."

I don't know if I would go that far but you are certainly so limited and in this day and age pretty much a dinosaur in the Le Brea tar pits of the music world.

Until there is some kind of melodic content, they are really not songs. They are poetry. Songs take rhythm, melody and meter.If you can't have that, it pretty much keeps you WAY outside the game.

I would be on an eternal search for cowriters and prove to them why they HAD to be involved with me.

MAB

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They "HAVE" to be involved with me?!?
Isn't that a little arrogant for a first impression?

I'm gonna write anyway, regardless...and if anyone would care to join me for the ride, c'mon out! If not, that's cool, too.

I'm just looking for a descriptive term that tells everyone, including me, about what I do.


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I had to say "LYRAC" out loud a few times....


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Sam,

We all write for ourselves first and foremost. But the second you step outside that boundry of your own mind or living room you are vying for other people's attention.

If you are a writer looking for other writers, publishers, song pluggers, record companies or an audience of any kind.you are constantly having to prove yourself and what you do that they can't live without. That is what the business of music is about.

If you are trying to get to an audience, WHY should they listen to you with the literally millions of choices they have for their time.

If you are a singer, what is it about you that they HAVE to listen to.


Everything about this is about ego. The fact that you think you have anything that anyone else wants to hear is about ego. The fact that you write something down, perform it or put it in the arena of ideas all has a componant of ego in it.

You may just think it is part of you that wants to get out, and to a degree that is true. But you are asking that for whatever amount of time, three minutes, four minutes, five minutes, whatever, those people HAVE to listen to you. That is what you are doing.

The only thing you can't do is abuse the use of their time or interest.If you do that, they move on to something else.

Elementary actually.

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Maybe the original question was "If you don't write songs, why write country?" :-)

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Marc, that's a great story about your friend Eddie, and Pat Benetar! smile "Best Shot" is indeed one of the cheesiest songs I've ever heard, but damned if it doesn't ALWAYS get a great response from a bar crowd! Even now, people (women especially) nod their heads, tap their feet, and get up to dance!

A similar story: Joan Jett wrote "I Love Rock and Roll" and shopped it to TWENTY TWO publishers. This was after she already had enjoyed a level of success. They all turned the song down, saying it would never go anywhere. She didn't believe that, and therefore started her own label. The rest is history!

Mike Caro, quit saying rock n' roll is dead! Heard much Pink lately? She's a great writer and a great rocker! Is it Physical Graffiti? No, but it's still worthwhile stuff to listen to.

Bill, music is art, and art is subjective. Whoever said, "If you don't write country, you should just quit writing" sounds like a jaded, burnt out, narrow minded idiot! As long as a song "moves you", it doesn't matter the genre...there's a market for it somewhere. Cincinnati artists are recording on their own labels and marketing themselves. Some of them have reached nationwide success (and even a following across the pond). I think that's the way to go now.


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Originally Posted by the songcabinet
Maybe the original question was "If you don't write songs, why write country?" :-)


Or even better "If you do not write songs then write country lyrics"

Just kidding....

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Big Jim must be feeling better -- glad to see you posting again. I disagree some of the things you say, but you always challenge me to listen harder.

Kevin


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Thanks Kevin......a bit better but still nothing near 100%

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Originally Posted by Polly Hager

A similar story: Joan Jett wrote "I Love Rock and Roll" and shopped it to TWENTY TWO publishers. This was after she already had enjoyed a level of success. They all turned the song down, saying it would never go anywhere. She didn't believe that, and therefore started her own label. The rest is history!


Polly, I love ya, darlin, but you've posted this several times and it's not true. "I Love Rock 'n' Roll" was written by Alan Merrill and Jake Hooker of The Arrows, who recorded it in 1975. Joan Jett covered it in 1981. I believe Alan Merrill is a JPF member.

Just keeping the facts straight for future reference! wink


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Alan Merrill is in fact a JPF member and enters our awards regularly and did co-write that song and Joan Jett had nothing to do with it as a writer. We even considered his version of that song in our awards as a cover but it wasn't a great version. He seems like a nice guy and has been releasing albums for many many years. I think we may have met at a NYC JPF event way back in the 90's.

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By the way, if you can tell someone to quit writing songs and they do, they weren't really songwriters to start with. It's something in you that you can't control. You might be able to stop voluntarily for a time due to life circumstance, but it will always pulse through you and you'll have to return to it on your own terms. But someone else can't stop you. If they can, you should find another hobby.

But it's still a terrible thing to say, but I bet it was said in a context which would put it in a much different light if the entire conversation was available to hear.

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Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
By the way, if you can tell someone to quit writing songs and they do, they weren't really songwriters to start with. It's something in you that you can't control. You might be able to stop voluntarily for a time due to life circumstance, but it will always pulse through you and you'll have to return to it on your own terms.


Amen. Its not a hobby, its an addiction, or disease. It constantly rears its head at the WORST possible times and makes you do things you'd rather not do because you can't not do them. Thats why so many people keep doing it over and over again even when they get shot down - you can't stop.

I think we should start a songwriters annonymous group. We can have our own 12 step program for quitting songwriting.

We could probably find a great first step, maybe even a nice recurring second step, but we'd never manage to come up with a third step we were completely happy with...

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Country Music is more song driven, hence the need for more songs. Rock n' Pop aren't so much about songs. They are more about sound effects and such and image. Country Music is a song driven genre. If you write Rock, its much less lyrically driven than Country.


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Kevin and Brian, I'm sorry, I didn't know Joan Jett didn't write that song, but it was told to me that she shopped it. Could that part still be accurate? Thanks for the correction. I'll go back to my source and see what her source of info was.

VAsinger, I couldn't disagree with you more! I don't know what rock you listen to, but the rock I listen to is very much lyrically driven! IMO, the lyrics are better than country lyrics too...just more substance to them, not so simple and shallow like some country songs. Then again, there's "good, better, best" in every genre.

John, humorous post! grin


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Country Music has much more meaning than Rock could ever hope to have. Im not sure what kind of Country you listen to, but its obviously not what I listen to. I think Country songs are deeper. But maybe thats just me. Rock and Pop are more about image.

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Vasinger, there are very deep country songs, and there are very stupid and superficial country songs. And I could say the same things about rock.

And while some rock does go into "image" and a sort of collage writing, there is some extraordinary writing going on in indie rock.

I don't dis country at all -- it's a solid genre, and has a great narrative tradition and an audience for it. But you shouldn't dis other genre just because they're not what you write, or what you're comfortable with. Polly is right, there's great stuff out there -- it's just different in what it looks to express and how it looks to express it.

Of course, this invites the age-old discussion of what is "good writing" vs. what people will pay to listen to, and where they overlap. But that's the discussion we always wind up having.


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As with everything,I think it's just a matter of personal preference.I try to listen to a little bit of everything,but I write mostly country.My personal preference (as far as what I enjoy listening to)is alternative.I love Smashing Pumpkins,Radiohead,Audioslave,Etc.It seems to me that country is more straight forward story telling lyrically speaking,and rock is more poetic and usually more open to personal interpretation.
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Originally Posted by VASINGER
Country Music has much more meaning than Rock could ever hope to have. Im not sure what kind of Country you listen to, but its obviously not what I listen to. I think Country songs are deeper. But maybe thats just me. Rock and Pop are more about image.


Wrong ! Just so totally wrong.

Now, the I way I carry on about country music, you'd think I didn't like the stuff. That's not true. I write and produce the odd ( very odd ! ) country tune. I just can't be bothered with superficial twang twang nonsense.

Those that think it's all about 3 chords and the truth should actually study music.

If you look closely, you'll see that Nashville has regained it's image as a music hub. That's because the whole scene revolves around "players". All sorts of players, from guitarists to string quartets.

I will step outside my box now ( I'm origionally a key/progammer guy ) and say your statement is totally wrong.

I can take a REAL country music musician, stick him in with a symphony orchestra, and he's go just fine. Why ? Because he's a real musican in the first place. Can even play a 1 4 5.

Any musician from any genre, will never tell you that his music genre is the best. He'll just simply nod politely, and relegate such ignorant statements to the "can't be bothered" bin.

What a croc !

cheers, niteshift

PS - Barnette ! That means you too !





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I'm listening. Just seeing how deep this hole gets.

MAB

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grin

cheers, niteshift

PS - It's always good to rile the "I'm country only" folks.

PPS - Marc, know you're not like that, but please join me in digging a deeper hole. smile

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I agree with Polly and the others, I've heard plenty of brilliant Rock lyrics and plenty of dumb ones, same with Country... Frankly the only real difference in many cases is music arrangement and production anyway. Southern Rock could easily be either or both simultaneously if arranged differently. So Vasinger, your view is simply wrong, perhaps due to limited experience with listening to vast numbers of quality songs in many other genres. I'll decline the easy opportunity to rip your virtual head off and just leave it at apparent inexperience. You should listen to a LOT more music.

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But if you want really deep lyrics, you have to listen to chicken scratch polka. But since the singers are not amplified in this genre, the words are also a big mystery.


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Okay,here is my take on it.

Country tends to be written in more direct and simple language,where as most rock and pop lyrics are written more metaphorical and poetic. It is sometimes compared to a Picasso impressionist painting whereas country would be a more of a Dutch masters painting.

Most rock or pop is designed to allow the listener to draw their own conclusions as to what the song is about,where as country is mostly designed to spell out everything to the listener.

In rock and pop, the music is usually designed first where as country is more lyric oriented and is written with the music a bit more simpler and come in a secondary role.

Rock and pop lend themselves more to production whereas country is more simpler in construction, yet the lyrics generally drive the action.

There is a wide variety in all styles and you can't really claim dominance of one over the other. Two distinct different styles of writings and processes.

That is how I approach it. And I have written a lot of both. My little bit of sand to fill up the hole.

MAB

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If you don't write Bluegrass, why write?


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I would go as far as to say country lyrics are deceptively simple - they look far easier to write than they actually are. Having a keeping a (relatively) simple structure, not using colorful language and grand metaphors, all while keeping every line moving towards the goal of the song is very difficult.

Having said that, writing a clever but obtuse rock lyric is equally challenging because it has to do the same thing and move the song towards its eventual goal. Its ridiculous to say that one is "better" than the other. I would guarantee that pretty much everyone who has been writing a while has written songs across all genres.

Frankly, these days the line between what is Country, what is Rock, what is Pop, Folk, Blues, is a HUGE gray area. If you like one then there's a good chance you'll like the others as well.

VASINGER - IN NO WAY is country any more "song" driven than rock or pop. Every genre needs songs, country songs often come from outside writers, thats the only different. Songs and lyrics are just as complex in rock as they are in country. Its all part of the song. Country is also not deeper than any other format, nor smarter, nor a better reflection of real life. Hit the DC hip-hop, rock and folk scenes to hear an alternative version of real life. If thats too far then Richmond has an excellent scene too. I'm not sure where you're located.

I apologize for being blunt about this but you've rubbed me the wrong way with a number of posts about what is "better" and what is "worse." In music and all art there is rarely a better or worse, just different. Having said that, I hope we can get back on the right foot.

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Originally Posted by billrocker
A client of mine was told by a representative from a highly respected songwriting organization that she should quit writing songs because her music wasn't country. I couldn't believe my ears. So, I suppose Billy Joel should stop writing songs?

Just shows you what happens if you live in a music town too long and/or go to (or put on) too many song writing seminars I guess. After all, none of us are in it for the sheer enjoyment right?

Sheesh....

I just had to share this....

Bill


Well, if someone is presenting material at a seminar for commercial songwritng that wasn't commercial, then I can see how blatant honesty would be in order. But not in that manner.

I'm a smart alec and would have probably told them my country songs are written as an exercise to punch new country in the mouth lol.

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I used to hate country and laugh because I thought it was too simple and even thought less talented. I was young and wrong! I still do not like country all that much but respect the songwriting skills and musicianship more than ever before.

One of my arguments for those who think country is just "the best" is why do they cover so many rock/pop songs? I know the reason is mostly because as people get older they generally veer towards country and they get to hear the songs they used to love in a different genre. (my opinion anyway) But I have yet to hear too many rock/pop singers cover country songs. Maybe that is because country is best so why bother? But I don't think so.

I agree with Marc:
Country generally takes you places with a story and has less complicated music. Not saying this is a bad thing because without the simple music you would not pay as much attention to the lyrics!

I was always a rock/pop fan and never payed that much attention to the lyrics. I sing along with songs now and think "wow, had no idea that THAT was what this song was about." (see "whip it" by Devo.)

I listen to songs by Beck or Red Hot Chili Peppers and have no idea what the songs are about but love them anyway. The rock lyrics let you take the song where you want/imagine a little more I think, but country lyrics generally make a lot more sense.

So I started writing songs and didn't really care much about the lyrics as long as they fit the melody and have since changed my approach a bit. There are a lot more to lyrics than I ever thought!

I watched a youtube video of a guy breaking down an Eminem rap song and I could not believe the amount of talent some of his songs have from a lyrical perspective. Just have to keep your mind open to different genres. Don't have to like them but at least respect them.

Sorry I am off topic a little! Country writing is probably your best shot right now at getting heard as a songwriter but to say you should stop writing is certainly stupid. But if you look at it ONLY from a business/money perspective I can see where this conversation could take place.

Hopefully writing music comes from your heart and if the money comes then great! JUST KEEP WRITING!!! What you are creating is like nothing else in the world. There is a lot of art that I see that I personally don't like and don't get but it's all original even if it copies other artist a little bit.

Make your own art and if it happens to be country then great but if it's not that is o.k. too. (At least I will probably like it better.) grin

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Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Okay,here is my take on it.

Country tends to be written in more direct and simple language,where as most rock and pop lyrics are written more metaphorical and poetic. It is sometimes compared to a Picasso impressionist painting whereas country would be a more of a Dutch masters painting.

Most rock or pop is designed to allow the listener to draw their own conclusions as to what the song is about,where as country is mostly designed to spell out everything to the listener.

In rock and pop, the music is usually designed first where as country is more lyric oriented and is written with the music a bit more simpler and come in a secondary role.

Rock and pop lend themselves more to production whereas country is more simpler in construction, yet the lyrics generally drive the action.

There is a wide variety in all styles and you can't really claim dominance of one over the other. Two distinct different styles of writings and processes.

That is how I approach it. And I have written a lot of both. My little bit of sand to fill up the hole.

MAB


So what you are saying in a roundabout way is that country songs are aimed at less educated people who lack the basic skill and imagination to draw their own conclusions or appreciate more poetic or metaphorical lyrics and complicated language and cannot follow anything but the simplest of melodies and instrumentation..... OK I will buy that.

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Jim,

Of all the idiotic things you have said over the years, that is one of them. Not at all. It is speaking plainly to your audience. There are also subtle double meanings in it also it and it is much harder to write simple instead of a bunch of poetic nonsense that means nothing to anyone, the writer included. This elitst mentality you have is really quite tiresome. You know nothing of which you speak, pay no attention to reality and spout off nonsense at every opportunity.

So yes Jim, I guess country would fit you well. Although I doubt you would get it. It is a bit more that you probably could understand. Wouldn't hurt you to try to learn about it might help you make some sense of your own writing.

MAB

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IN MY WHOLE LIFE I'VE NEVER HEARD SO MUCH DISAGREEMENT, WITH PEOPLE WANTING TO AGREE--I'M HERE IN NASHVILLE FOR A LONG TIME NOW (1960)--WRITE ANYTHING YOU WANT--IF IT DOESN'T FIT WHAT BIZ IS LOOKIN' FOR--FILE IT UNDER PERSONAL SONGS--AND WRITE SOMETHING ELSE--1 OUT OF 1000 MAKE ENOUGH MONEY TO NOT NEED A SECOND JOB--SO YOU ALWAYS ASK YOURSELF--"WOULD I BUY THAT"--NO MATTER WHAT GENRE MUSIC YOU'RE IN--AN AWFUL LOT OF ROCKERS WIND UP IN NASHVILLE PLAYING FOR FREE TOO--WAITIN' FOR A BREAK--SOME WAIT 10 YEARS--FOR SOME IT NEVER COMES--SO I SAY--"WRITE ON SONG WRITERS WRITE ON"--IF ONLY TO SATISFY YOU--PEOPLE IN THE BACK ROW, LISTEN UP--IF THEY TURN THE BUILDING AROUND--YOU'LL BE ON THE FRONT ROW--THINGS CHANGE....AND CHANGE...AND.......

ISN'T IT WONDERFUL TO BE ALL TANGLED UP TOGETHER IN MUSIC-------

Mackie

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Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Jim,

Of all the idiotic things you have said over the years, that is one of them. Not at all. It is speaking plainly to your audience. There are also subtle double meanings in it also it and it is much harder to write simple instead of a bunch of poetic nonsense that means nothing to anyone, the writer included. This elitst mentality you have is really quite tiresome. You know nothing of which you speak, pay no attention to reality and spout off nonsense at every opportunity.

So yes Jim, I guess country would fit you well. Although I doubt you would get it. It is a bit more that you probably could understand. Wouldn't hurt you to try to learn about it might help you make some sense of your own writing.

MAB



Marc what day was it when I posted....?

LOL sense of humour deserted you?

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The best country songs are parables, an art form in itself. American art seems to be largely based around the allegorical, from Walt Whitman, through John Huston, to Bob Dylan and Quentin Tarantino.

Rock music is mostly about sex, pop music about infatuation.

The best lyrics you find today are probably in hip-hop.

Rock 'poetry' is, as Marc says, largely nonsense - but then rock lyrics are about vocal expression, not common sense.

Dan smile



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Dan I think your generalisations are all wrong. Probably the worst lyrics of today are Hip Hop. They mostly are guys mouthing off as fast as they can to the point of most of it being totally uncomprehensible. They promote violence, gang culture, drugs, crime, disrespect of women and any authority not to mention the constant use of the N word. Saying this word would get a white guy into a lot of trouble but black guys use it all the time with impunity......can never get my head around that. I also cannot get my head around the fact that despite all the money some of these guys make they still look like pimps at a facy dress party or someone who has dresssed in the dark and put on the wrong size of clothes from the kids dressing up box. Yeah you can take the guy out of the hood but you cannot take the hood out of the guy.

Rock music vocals cover a wide range of subjects and saying they are poetic nonsense perhaps shows a lack of understanding of the clever word plays and hidden meanings behind a lot of the lyrics.
"Country music lyrics contain clever word plays" well I will take your word for it.

Getting back to basics Blues was traditionally simple music and lyrics written by poor uneducated people usually the products of slavery who vented their anger at the rotten life they had been given......Country music is little different. It comes from poor uneducated folk who wrote about their lifestyle and surroundings. So by their very nature these genres tend to have simple down to earth lyrics and melodies. Nothing to be ashamed about.....but they by their very nature will remain simple lyrics written for simple folk.
Rock music however is historically a product of well educated well trained musicians and people traditionally from college and university backgrounds so the lyrics and musication tends to be from a higher intellectual plain requiring a more refined ear and imagination. Things are not spelled out to the degree of other less simple genres. The language used tends to be more sophisticated and the subject matter is less down to earth with lots of hidden meanings and clever word plays.
The genres and style of the music people are associated with is very much down to geographic location and the level of education received by the individual.

Pop music is pretty unsophisticated and is clearly aimed at impressionable teenagers who will blindly follow the latest fad or cool trend...just to discard it a week later when it is considered uncool.
All that said any true lover of music should be able to appreciate good music and performances REGARDLESS OF ITS STYLE ERA OR GENRE.
Todays music is a HUGE melting pot where many styles crossover so generalising is pointless and usually inaccurate.
Even todays Country draws inspiration from pop, blues and rock.
So all bets are off regarding generalisation.
Now just to have another dig at Marc....in a light hearted way of course....If writing country songs is SO DIFFICULT then how come so many people manage to achieve it. It seems that everbody and their Grannies dog in Nashville write country lyrics AND everyone outside Nashville wants to have a go as well despite the fact that the subject matter has been done to death and is pretty much exhausted. LOL

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Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
Marc what day was it when I posted....?

LOL sense of humour deserted you?


Guess you got Marc going there Big Jim.

Maybe 'April Fools' day is different in the USA

God Bless Roy and Helen

Last edited by Roy Cooper; 04/02/11 08:28 AM.

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Thanks Roy....at last someone with a sense of humour....I would have thought that anyone reading my post despite it being April 1st would have taken it as light hearted humour in any case......maybe SIMPLE country folk cannot accept or appreciate the sophistication of jokes unless it is spelled out with LOL after it to reinforce the point and tell them when to laugh.
Maybe they are far too busy getting divorced, painting the porch with its obligatory swing and tending to their four hundred kids and the cop in the field to have a laugh.

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Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
Dan I think your generalisations are all wrong. Probably the worst lyrics of today are Hip Hop. They mostly are guys mouthing off as fast as they can to the point of most of it being totally uncomprehensible. They promote violence, gang culture, drugs, crime, disrespect of women and any authority not to mention the constant use of the N word. Saying this word would get a white guy into a lot of trouble but black guys use it all the time with impunity......can never get my head around that. I also cannot get my head around the fact that despite all the money some of these guys make they still look like pimps at a facy dress party or someone who has dresssed in the dark and put on the wrong size of clothes from the kids dressing up box. Yeah you can take the guy out of the hood but you cannot take the hood out of the guy.

Rock music vocals cover a wide range of subjects and saying they are poetic nonsense perhaps shows a lack of understanding of the clever word plays and hidden meanings behind a lot of the lyrics.
"Country music lyrics contain clever word plays" well I will take your word for it.

Getting back to basics Blues was traditionally simple music and lyrics written by poor uneducated people usually the products of slavery who vented their anger at the rotten life they had been given......Country music is little different. It comes from poor uneducated folk who wrote about their lifestyle and surroundings. So by their very nature these genres tend to have simple down to earth lyrics and melodies. Nothing to be ashamed about.....but they by their very nature will remain simple lyrics written for simple folk.
Rock music however is historically a product of well educated well trained musicians and people traditionally from college and university backgrounds so the lyrics and musication tends to be from a higher intellectual plain requiring a more refined ear and imagination. Things are not spelled out to the degree of other less simple genres. The language used tends to be more sophisticated and the subject matter is less down to earth with lots of hidden meanings and clever word plays.
The genres and style of the music people are associated with is very much down to geographic location and the level of education received by the individual.

Pop music is pretty unsophisticated and is clearly aimed at impressionable teenagers who will blindly follow the latest fad or cool trend...just to discard it a week later when it is considered uncool.
All that said any true lover of music should be able to appreciate good music and performances REGARDLESS OF ITS STYLE ERA OR GENRE.
Todays music is a HUGE melting pot where many styles crossover so generalising is pointless and usually inaccurate.
Even todays Country draws inspiration from pop, blues and rock.
So all bets are off regarding generalisation.
Now just to have another dig at Marc....in a light hearted way of course....If writing country songs is SO DIFFICULT then how come so many people manage to achieve it. It seems that everbody and their Grannies dog in Nashville write country lyrics AND everyone outside Nashville wants to have a go as well despite the fact that the subject matter has been done to death and is pretty much exhausted. LOL


Anyone who sells a lot of music deals in generalisations - a few great artists may buck this trend, but that is why they are great!


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Yawn. IF you listen to the Airwaves today, what's "Country" IS Pop & Rock: Tim McGraw's "Felt Good on My Lips" is a Mantra-Like 60's POP Song..pure-&-simple (JMO, anyways...& I, as a writer, remain Totally-Revulsed at any Honcho's attempt to "Pigeonhole" ANY Genre.) Taylor Swift's "Mine" has the term "flight risk" in it..ever heard THAT line in a "Country" Number before?/the "Yeah-Yeah"s hark back to The Beatles.

The Pat Benetar Yarn only serves to remind us that even "Insiders" have a Hard Time getting a Good Song CUT. (And that it takes years of perseverance and yeah, LUCK, to get ANY song in ANY Genre Up-There with the Big Boys.)

So..keep a-writing Whatever You Like...(& buy a few Powerball Tickets every week, too...might have even-better Odds!)

JMO, again, but the MORE Genres you CAN Write In..the Better Your Odds. Nashville prefers "Country"...(What a Surprise?)..but L.A...New York..Branson..& even Miami..(& Abroad)..are all "Targets-of-Opportunity" for Your Wares.

Good Luck/Best Wishes/Big Hugs,
Stan

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Yes, Jim,you did get me. Good for you.

It hit me at the wrong time and I reacted badly. We are in the middle of Tin Pan South here and we have thousands of people here that come in for the shows, which last all week. I have continued appointments and try to follow along with everyone as I can. Many of the JPF and other members of the other forums I do decend on this town.

The day before I had been in several heated discussions with some of them. Two happened to be from England. One of them, a very talented keyboard player, picked back up on a discussion we had started last year on the subject matter and lyrics of country.

He really was that same opinion and was going on again about it. Then he came up with a weird statement that what he hated about country was the cheating and drinking songs of Tammy Wynette and George jones,which actualy pretty much dissapeared 20 years ago. THEN he says he LOVES Rascal Flatts. he said he loves the melodies and THAT kind of country he could get into.

THAT IS WHAT COUNTRY IS NOW.

Then I really poured it on twenty minutes later when I had a round put together with Danny Wells, the writer of several Rascal Flatts hits, like "These Days." He spent the rest of the night apologizing to me and actually starting to listen to what he has been complaining about.

So yes, your comments did hit me the wrong way, and it was one of my "To Hell with it" moments.

So April Fools. You got me. It was also my 23rd anniversery of moving to Nashville. So I missed that one. Sorry for my reaction. But a LOT of people from outside here have real reactions just like that.

The problem comes is when they come HERE to find some way to resurect their careers since it played out everywhere else. We get a little tired of people from all over coming here and tell us what we are doing wrong and how backwards we are. We get it all the time.So yes, some of our tempers can be on edge sometimes.

Actually what we have had in the past few years are every rocker coming to town. The parade is endless, from Peter Frampton, Kid Rock, Sherryl Crowe, Jon Bon Jovi, Jon Waite, Neil Diamond, Paul McCartney, Elton John, Darius Rucker, Barry Gibb (bought and then burned down Johnny Cash's house), actors like Gwenneth Paltrow, it never ends. They all are coming HERE. And they don't leave. They buy houses and LOVE the community.

And of course when Robert Plant is here fairly regularly and winning a Grammy with Alison Krause,it harkens back to the days of that great Bluegrass combo "The Led Zepplin Kentucky Bluegrass boys" sure we always remember that one.

So yeah, I got a little bent. Sorry about that. Glad to read your later posts.

Have a good day after getting me.

MAB

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No prob.....Marc you should get out more LOL...YES Nashville is the mecca for a lot of stars....and most music nowadays draws inspiration from other artists and other genres......I am pretty eclectic in my tastes but am not a big fan of the modern whiny nasally female singers and the overuse of autotune we hear in most pop music nowadays. I also am not a fan of the older style crying in a bucket country songs as mentioned by the keyboard player in your post. Some of the more modern songs I like but they tend to be more rock than country. All that said I can appreciate ANY good music performed well.

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Jim,

I don't know you but you have a right to what you "opinion" of hip hop is but I think you really need to go back and re-examine all the generalities that you have laid out.
I am not a big hip hop fan, and yes it is true that some Artist do some of the things that you have posted but not all of them.

Your generalities should not go unchallenged.
You have a right to whatever opinion you have, but you are doing yourself a great disservice here by posting such an ill informed post.-Respectfully-Dana

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MAB, I liked your first response when you gave the devil to Big Jim. Gotta stand up for what you believe and the hometown team. I see nothing wrong with that. Even on April Fools Day.


Write from your heart, not what you think others want to hear.

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Originally Posted by Dayson
Jim,

I don't know you but you have a right to what you "opinion" of hip hop is but I think you really need to go back and re-examine all the generalities that you have laid out.
I am not a big hip hop fan, and yes it is true that some Artist do some of the things that you have posted but not all of them.

Your generalities should not go unchallenged.
You have a right to whatever opinion you have, but you are doing yourself a great disservice here by posting such an ill informed post.-Respectfully-Dana


I do not doubt what you say.......there is always an exception to any rule but enough hip hop folk do exactly what I claim they do to more than prove my generalisation. I would be interested to hear some of the exceptions you claim there are to prove me wrong. My view is not unique.. many people just do not get hip hop and a lot dislike it intensely for the very reasons I have stated. I fall into both camps. I cannot see what the mass appeal and attraction is for hip hop especially from people outside this relatively small culture. I know of MIDDLE CLASS people who deliberately put on a ghetto accent and adopt this street culture just to look cool..... GEEZZ how purile is that.

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Here is a weird one, I actually am on Big Jim's team on this. But probably for a different reason.

I am first and formost a singer. The extension of melodic notes, being able to turn a phrase in some form of tune is what makes what I do unique in how I do it. At least that is what I try to do.

With most rap and hip hop I have heard (and I will be the first to tell you that I don't listen to much, so I do plead ignorance on that, however I work with a LOT of people who have done a lot of it, some even to have multi platinum records on their walls who come to me to get farther away from that world. The neighborhood in many ways gets a little rough for their tastes.)The stacatto bursts that are required to keep in a rythmn don't allow for the holding out of notes. And a lot of the subject matter is not something I care for.

Many of the tracks are very similar with the same sound effects on a lot of records. But I choose to keep most of my thoughts to myself on it, because, who cares about what I think on a format I don't even know? I do speak of my hometown because I do know that. A complaint that I do have is that many people who speak against it do not know it. That is what bothers me.

For the record Jim, we tend to be more on the same pages than away from it. And like you I too dislike much of the older whiny stuff. I don't like depressing subject matter so none of that appeals to me in any form of music. I also don't care for a lot of minor chords, which tend to denote negativity.

There is a good reason a lot of the country music coming out now sounds like older rock. There is usually a ten-12 year learning curve from when we first start paying attention to music from age around 12-14, we pick up an instrument, and then develop our own versions of music. At first we simply parrot the songs we hear on our radios or those of older friends or siblings. As we develop our own styles around ages of 20-25 and start writing our own, we absorb that into our own styles.

Music is more about ADAPTATION than actual CHANGE.Just like the Beatles took the SKIFFLE beats to the next level, much of what we do now,takes the previous generation and adds to it.

In the 90's, a lot of rock turned to grunge, alternative, and hip hop/rap. So many rock artists, turned to country. A large majority of the producers, musicians, writers, publishers, song pluggers in Nashville now, came from LA and New York in the 70's-90's. They were involved on rock hits, of that era and then migrated to Nashville, first on a part time basis, then on a more full time basis. Many of them, finding the real estate and cost of living 1/3rd of where they are, including the raising of families a bit safer, less traffic congestion, closer community.

So you have heard a gradual easing of more pop or rock sounding songs. Also the average listener is more sophisticated now, (EVEN FOR COUNTRY JIM) so our writing, production and approach have adapted as well.

That is why I react at times a bit strongly when people talk about Nashville. Most all of you hear a VERY SMALL part of what there is here. And also some of all of your favorite writers that many of you quote on pages like these, ALL end up coming here.

Enough on Nashville 101 today. Hope you are all doing well.

MAB

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Marc take a tablet......most of that made sense....LOL

So what you are saying is that Nashville is SLOW TO ADAPT AND is 10-15 years behind the times....I can buy that...... LOL

Seriously though music must have light and shade, hot and cold, happy and sad....it must be balanced. I like some of the sad minor chords they add depth and feeling. Nothing wrong with a bit of melancholy every noe and then. I also like the strong happy majors that bring warmth and a feeling of well being. There is a time and a place for both happy and sad just as in life.
Play a sad song and watch all the couples hugging and carressing each other on the dance floor......think about what is going to happen later on when they get home...... Well if you only play happy songs you would be personally be responsible for the demise of the human race due to lack of procreation. No point in just playing happy songs if there is no humans left to listen to them.
Anyways I'm off for a cold shower. All this excitememnt is bad for me at my age.

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I'm not here to change Jim's opinion about what hip hop is, I hope most here know enough about hip hop to know what it isn't.-Dana

Anyone interested in knowing what hip hop is can do a simple search on it and read up on it. Here is a link below

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_hop_music

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I know enough about hip hop to know what I like and what I dislike about it. I stand by my original statements. Now please show me where I am wrong...so far you have claimed I do not know what I am talking about.....I saw nothing in the article to disprove any of what I originally said......but hey you are the expert....you tell me what is so wrong in what I said. There are some elements I quite like and some folk are pretty clever poets DJs and studio techs but most of it is pretty naff and certainly unoriginal. Where would it be without ripping off huge samples from proper music?
I grew up on blues and soul music from the sixties plus ska and reggae...I love it all but hip hop is a downward spiral.

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"One of my arguments for those who think country is just "the best" is why do they cover so many rock/pop songs? I know the reason is mostly because as people get older they generally veer towards country and they get to hear the songs they used to love in a different genre." -Ricky Layne

Great point Ricky. = )


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If you're not writing German Death Metal in the original German language and maximum aggression, then why bother writing songs? = )


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Rap music is an art for just as legit as rock or country. And like those two, there's an equal ratio of crap and brilliance. We find similar levels across all genres really. To claim any genre is all crap or even all 1 thing only reveals deep ignorance of the genre as a whole. Surface opinion means little, especially when you simply don't like or respect the music to start with. Rap is about FAR more than lame Gangsta Rap as well, it's sort of like saying all country is Achy Breaky Heart or Cheatin' Songs.

Brian


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I would have been proud to have written Achy Breaky Heart. It was actually a perfect little dance tune when it was released by Billy Ray (even if it was written about 10 years earlier!).

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