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Yeah, I know....I have been here long enough to know something about it?

I am asking this out of absolute necessity, not because I actually want to run the risk of being screwed out of anything.

And not because I just want to sell anything that I have written to just anyone out there, either.

This end of the biz just befuddles me, and I'd love to know the details behind it all.


Co-Write Friendly.....Look at my blog on My Space.

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I am not sure what you are asking for here. I don't think anyone sells lyrics, do they? I mean you write and co-write and try to get cuts. I guess there are about 300 staff writing positions that might get a draw against future earnings -- but those are going the way of the dinosaur.

Kevin


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I don't believe anyone "sells" lyrics anywhere, including Nashville. If you read Marc Barnette's posts on JPF, you will soon realize the futility of attempting to sell lyrics. Your only hope is to get a complete song cut by someone, which is at best a long shot.


Colin

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Well, that's the reality in one way of puttin' it, right?

I have heard of this since I came here, but never looked into it.
People who have read my work have asked me about this repeatedly.....saying, "Are you trying to sell these?" or "What are you doing with these?"

So, now, I need to know how to go about this, if it is indeed possible....


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I think "sell" in that respect means get someone to go along with the idea. Lyrics are not in high demand, because everyone believes they can write, and they most often come last when a song is done.

I know it isn't so, and don't advocate that viewpoint, but I know that's how many feel about lyrics. So actual selling of lyrics is a no go, it seems to me.

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Hello,

Since my name came up, I thought I would respond. You don't actually "sell" lyrics, or songs at all for that matter.At least to no one reputable. The music industry revolves around "finished products" only, that is music and lyrics in some sort of recorded form.

There are companies that promise to "put lyrics to music" but that is more of a scam to charge for substandard demos and hook the writer into paying all kinds of money.

Most writers here write both lyrics and music although their are people that specialize in one or the other.

With hundreds of thousands and even millions of completed songs out there, having lyric only's end up more in a poetry vein than actual songs. There are however millions of potential co-writers around, many that can be found in most of the clubs, bars and hotels around Nashville. Usually your waiter,the cook, the bus driver, or the guy who cleans the restrooms are very capable songwriters as well. Finding those are usually not much trouble.

To my knowledge, there are no one of any repute "buying' song lyrics or melodies. Too much chance of liabilities and too many laws against it.

MAB

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yeah, what he just said....

Last edited by markus-ky; 09/18/10 07:13 PM.
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Sam
Ask yourself who is asking you if you are trying to "sell" your lyrics.
I get asked that all the time, By friends and family who know nothing about the business.
They do not have a clue how the business works. And of course they think my songs are "great".


Bill
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Well, how about this? I hear alot about musicians who can't/don't/whatever write lyrics and could use a writer.

I got it! Why don't we at JPF write up a manual on how much of what is said around Nashville/NY/LA or wherever is complete bullsh*t?

Someone evidently needs to.


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Sam, I think what Marc is saying is that your lyric has to become a finished song, i.e. set to music and recorded by musicians. The next step is to "shop" the song to an artist that might want to cut it. This is where it gets confusing for me too. After the artist decides to cut the song, I am assuming that you, as the writer, get risiduals and some sort of fee for allowing the artist to cut it? I'm assuming contracts are drawn up and signed. To what percent who gets/pays what, I'm not sure. Anyone who knows more about the details of a transaction like this, I'd be interested to know!

Last edited by Polly Hager; 09/23/10 06:03 PM.

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Hey Sam,

Songwriters write songs. They do it for many different reasons, but they write songs. They're musicians.

In writing those tunes, lyrics are obviously a component, but only one component of many.

When thinking about a song, the composer doesn't differentiate the lyrics as a seperate etitiy. They are simply a part of the whole.

If you wish to be called a lyricist, that doesn't mean that you don't understand music. It simply means, that you understand music, and are much more adept at lyrics, than say writing a bass line, or doing a drum map, or arranging a symphony orchestra.

It is a skill, like any other, but is is not apart from music. How can it be ? It's a song afterall.....

cheers, niteshift


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As far as I know asongwriter who gets a cut receives a royalty of 9.1 cents per song pressed. The Publisher gets 50% that so if the artist presses 1000 CD's you get 50% of $90.10. If the song gets played on the radio you also get royalties.
The trick of course is getting your song to an artist. If you only write lyrics you need to develop relationships with folks who can help you bring the song to it;s completion, or demo.
You do that by networking, meeting people. Doak's is a good starting point for that. NSAI is another.

In a nutshell... Networking


Bill
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Bill, why does the publisher gets so much? That sounds awfully high (and unfair).


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Sam, partner up with someone.

Bernie Taupin didn't sell his lyrics...he cowrote with Elton John. Same deal with Ira Gershwin, Sammy Cahn or Dorothy Fields.

So, no...I can't think of anyone who ever just sold lyrics...they were all creating songs with other people, and the money they made came from royalties.

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Originally Posted by Polly Hager
why does the publisher gets so much? That sounds awfully high (and unfair).


Because 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing.


Kevin Edward Rose
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Polly
Most folks don't get anywhere in the business without a publisher. They are the folks who get you contacts with the big names. Getting signed with a big name puiblisher is a plus. But you pay for it. 50%. But the publisher will also pay for the expensive demo and promote your song.
You can be your own publisher and keep all the money for yourself if you have the contacts. If you are able to get a young up and coming artist to cut your song you can act as your own publisher. But you will also have to pay for everything yourself.


Bill
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Hi,

Polly,the reason the publisher gets "so much" is they are the ones who have spent usually about 20 years making the contacts and building the relationshps nessasary to move songs forward. That means sometimes spending up to $250,000 a year to even stay in business. And very little of that is made back. That is one of the reason that 7 years ago we had about 3000 publishers. We now have around 350 and about 25 of those are the ones who make the majority of the money.

It is all the same thing. Artists focus on being artists, and now writers. They spend many years building those relationships and fan base to move them forward. and yes, that is a lot of money too.

Writers take years to build the craft and now to help develop relationships with the unknowns of today who might be the stars of tomorrow.

All of this is about relationships. Songs, while very important, are all so similar, it takes a ton of people being involved with it, from publishers, song pluggers, artists, marketing campaigns, a lot of leg work on the road AND a LOT of work to make things happen. And nothing is fair.Some great songs never make it out of the chute and some really mediocrity gets on the top of the charts.

This is the equivilant of playing for the NFL. You start out in sandlot leagues, work your way into organized ball, high school, college, and maybe, just maybe, a few get to the NFL. And even then, most are going to sit the bench for most of their career until they just give up.

It is about making yourself valuable to other people. If you do something well, word of mouth gets around. If you are pretty cool to hang out with, are a friend and make other friends, you get referred. The referall moves you along. You work all the time and are shooting for the magic that sometimes happens. But it is all about making yourself valuable and being in the game.

It is a contact sport.

MAB

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Originally Posted by Sam Wilson
Well, how about this? I hear alot about musicians who can't/don't/whatever write lyrics and could use a writer.

I got it! Why don't we at JPF write up a manual on how much of what is said around Nashville/NY/LA or wherever is complete bullsh*t?

Someone evidently needs to.


Sam
This is what I understand to be the situation.
Many of todays Country artists are listed as cowriters on the songs. Some are legit writers, some are only listed so they can get a cut of the royalties.
but in its simplest form it seems to be this

lyricist. writes lyrics
Composer. writes music
Songwriter. writes lyrics and music
singer songwriter. writes lyrics, music, and sings the song. Plays am instrument to accompany him/herself. Plays open mics. plays at Doaks. Goes to the Bluebird, Douglas corners, The Commodore, and any other venue they can find. Tries to make contacts with other writers and composers.

Artist. This is the performer who gets all the attention. May or may not be able to write a lyric or compose music. May or may not play an instrument. May or may not be able to sing well. But has the charisma to attract an audience. Also is willing to spend a few years singing to empty seats in bars, working a day job and singing nights and weekends in bars and cover bands trying to get a break. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

If you develop a relationship with this artist you will have the opportunity to pitch your song directly to him/her. If not you will need a publisher who does have the contact or a songplugger.

if you do get your song to the artist you might have a 1 in 500 chance the song will get cut. If it does get cut it has a chance of making it onto the album. That's when youmake money depending on if the album gets released. It also might become a single which is when it gets airplay. You get royalties from airplay.

None of the above is any guarantee you will ever hear your song on the radio.


Bill
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Not to negate anything that has been said about selling youir lyric, legally, you don't "sell" your lyric, you "license it"

Even if you licensed it for 100% of future royalties, and completely give up your rights to future cash flows, you would still be named as the author, so it is still yours; it's just that you signed away certain or maybe even all rights to related compensation



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Sooooo, wow,I wonder how this all got started if the realities are as you say....

I have heard of songs being sold by Willie Nelson for $50.00 so that he could eat....but that was then, this is now.


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Sam,

Willie did sell the rights to Crazy for $50 in 1952 for Patsy Cline. It provided the basis of changes to the copyright law in 1973 that prevented songwriters from "selling" their shares in songs. You can no longer do that. You assign your publishing rights to whoever can benefit you. You retain writer's share.But that song probably led to fifty million in royalties on other songs over the years. Remember, Willie was fined by the IRS for non payment of ten million in taxes. That means he made a LOT of money on songs which led to his career as an actor,etc. Who is to say that if he didn't "sell" Crazy,he might not have ever had a hit. What if he left Nashville and never played music again?

The Beatles signed away all their publishing rights in their career. Most of the Beatle's catalogue is owned by the trust of Michael Jackson. But they have made millions (Paul McCartney has made Billions) as writers and other business interests.

Publishing became a buisness in the 1910's on the sale of sheet music and piano reels. So this has been going on for over 100 years.

It is what the business is. Always has been.

If you are talking about trying to "sell" any thing, lyrics, music, etc. here you are doing it in a town that everyone has the same product. So there is no interest in "buying" anything. They write it themselves.

MAB

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Actually, some Songs..& Lyrics ARE sold..on-occasion.

Saw where the IRS WAS selling-off a series of Songs...formerly owned by a Writer/Publisher Debtor. Legitimately.

Less than a year ago, a Less-than-By-The-Book Producer Buddy "traded" a song he'd paid $500-for 20 years ago...to a Publisher..for a $10K debt he'd rolled-up over last year. (Not too shabby a Deal..eh?) ;-)>

So, yeah, it happens. There's some Euro Website where I've seen Lyrics..& I think maybe entire songs..(I've forgotten)...for about $20-200 each. (General Impression: ya gets what ya pays for..&..ya may get a Lawsuit if the words/etc. were "swiped-or-borrowed", too.)

Dunno if You've ever joined NSIA..(Or is it NISA..Forgot Again!) but I found them VERY Helpful, the occasional visits I made to Nashcity...back when I had some loot.
Ya Oughta Join Them...they'll crit & help ya connect AND Market Your Wares..ESPECIALLY after they know you got MARKETABLE Wares.

And they have Meetings where ya learn how to WRITE Marketable, too...if that's possibly the source of problems.

&, yeah, the Other Writers here think "Nahh..Nobody EVER sells their Songs Outright..." But, on-occasion, hey, Anything & Everything Sells...it's just a matter of Legality...& proper Negotiating..AND having a Song that's worth, say, $20-to-$10K.

Good Luck with The Game,
Best Wishes & a Big Guy-Hug,
Stan

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Stan,

I have seen a lot of those stories too. And in the Internet world it probably happens. If you follow most of them there is usually a catch. "I made $10,000 on my songs, you can too, ask me how..." Many are internet legends and myths, fourth and fifth hand retelling. In actuality it probably violates a lot of laws but people do that all the time too.

In a song, unless it has activity, in the form of performance or sales royalties, or in a catalogue that derives actual income it is not of tangible value. So I would question whether the IRS would be taking that as payment. If so Willie could have gotten out of a lot of trouble 15 years ago. He could have just "sold his songs." In reality he did in a way. He recorded an album, "Who wants to buy my memories" in which the proceeds were devoted to his $10 million dollar tax debt. He also had to sell his golf course.

That is a well known solution a lot of songwriters have tried over the years, with not much success. The music industry is a feast or famine business. You can go years between having substantial income, and bills accrue during that time. Often you find hit songwriters really don't make much money on the hit song because they owe a lot of money racked up in draws, salaries, advances, loans, prommisary notes, etc.

Many get huge hits and do well for a while thinking the gravy train will never end. Those are the ones like MC Hammer who end up having their houses forclosed upon and everything sold to pay the tax liens.

I am not saying you're wrong. I don't know. It is something we hear a lot of. And a LOT of songwriters would love to find that solution. "Hey, I've got a bunch of songs that are worth a fortune. I'll just turn them over to you Mr. IRS man and you can sell em' up." I am sure a lot of people would love that deal. But I doubt the IRS would go too much for it. Having been through the audit process with the IRS, I can pretty much say for sure that is the case.

There are always a lot of this that goes around. My Dad was in the collector car business. There was always someone that paid $500 for a $50,000 Mercedes because the wife caught the owner cheating. Happens sometimes, but not quite like most people would be led to believe. My Dad even went for a scheme one time where a guy ran an ad in Playboy Magazine. "Make million dollars overnight only Ten Dollars." It was book that you sent of to a post office box. When he got the book back it had one page.

"Get 100,000 people to send you ten dollars."

Was what it said.

So I imagine there are some people that pay outragous prices for song catalogues, collector art that an aunt got from Picasso, an antique sword that someone paid $10,000 in Hong Kong for only to find out that the sword was a cheap knock off, the Picasso was actually a paint by numbers by Bernie Pickasso, a plumber from upstate New York,or the song catalogue is actually a collection of poems from Artie McCartney and Chester Lenon.

It is buyer beware.

MAB

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Well, after perusing the replies that were generated by my question, it would seem like no one that I have talked to knows much of anything about how the biz operates....or, if they did know anything, they sure as hell didn't tell me all of this.

Thanx for sharing, and now I won't feel quite so lost when I hear that line again. And, sadly, I'm sure that I will someday soon.


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Originally Posted by Sam Wilson
Well, that's the reality in one way of puttin' it, right?

I have heard of this since I came here, but never looked into it.
People who have read my work have asked me about this repeatedly.....saying, "Are you trying to sell these?" or "What are you doing with these?"

So, now, I need to know how to go about this, if it is indeed possible....


Sam
Who are these people you refer to? Are they Nashville Music Business people? Publishers? Other writers?
I would be curious to know where you are getting this information.


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Bro Sam, I DO understand your Frustration..at making any Serious Money from the Music BUSINESS... But..like any BUSINESS (un-like a HOBBY) you gotta FIRST Understand "What Is Available Out-There from Your COMPETITION"...and...what you can do that's UNIQUE-Enough to SELL. "WHO is Your MARKET?"

Price-Point-Wise, there is now SO-MUCH Available that's GOOD..(And,alas, FREE)..that it's for-sure gonna be an Uphill-Battle..JUST to get at the Entry-Level there..in Nashville.

I've had time to Google it, and it's "NSAI" that I recommend you join to get the "Inside Scoop"...somewhat-affordably..on how the Game Operates/What IS Selling. Costs ya $50, for each of 3 months of "Flex-Payments".. (Used to be $100 did-it back when I was a Member, but beer used to be "$5 A 6-Pack" then, too.)

You've lived there Long-Enough..seem dedicated-enough, maybe they'll cut ya an even-better break..I dunno.

But...IF you're out to make a Living out of this, you've only scratched the surface. You HAVE Chosen the Right City...at I still think..The Right Time..to pull it off. But..ya need to rise above that "Strugglin' Artiste" with a Chip-on-Shoulder to arrive at a better Mindset..with Better Connections..penning the Great Ones that ARE "What Sell".

KOS all the Free Advice...but DO check into NASI..they're The Real Deal IMHO. So's Marc...but you gotta JMO improve your Songs before you're ready for him.

Good Luck with your All-Important Next Step, Amigo!
Best Wishes & a Big Guy-Hug,
Stan

PS: You've come a Long Way since ya called yourself "Snake".

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Stan,

NSAI is Nashville Songwriters Associations International. it is the main organization I am affiliated with. I have been with them for 17 years. They have 110 chapter workshops in every state, Canada, England, Ireland and Australia.

They do have the main office here and as you say, it is $150 a year to join and can be broken up into payments. But Sam could visit the offices any time he wants to, they are always happy to show people around. The main meetings are every Thus.

MAB

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Sam,

Very few writers get to a point where they understand about how the business really works. Many come very naive, never stop to learn and get a lot of mistaken information. There are other people who have been here for a long time and have outdated information. Most just fall by the wayside, quit, be frustrated or simply try to make up their own rules. And of course, there are always a lot of people trying to separate other people from their money.

But the rules on publishing, royalties, the merchandising and publishsing of music, have been around since around 1908 when ASCAP was first formed. Congress started writing laws around copyrights in the early 1900's and it has proceeded since then.

The rules involving these issues are governed by Congress and are updated every so often. There are a lot of sharks and charletons and those are always out there. Need to try to avoid those.

Nashville is full of knowledgable people. They are pretty much every where you look. Just ignore the ones who don't know what they are talking about.

MAB


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One thing I think everyone is overlooking, is the fact that songs never used to be seperated out into elements like they are now. If you had someone who wrote lyrics but didn't write music, he or she paired up with someone who wrote music. You didn't have sites like this where people just wrote lyrics and said, "Okay, I have no melody or music...who out there wants to take a shot at this? AND I won't give you cowrite, even though you wrote the melody and music, (and quite possibly performed it) because I came up with the lyrical idea."

Sam, the song you and Heather wrote comes to mind. You and Heather Orwig wrote a song called "One Together" and asked Haze and I to demo it. Up until that point, it was NOT a song...it was words on paper. You had no melody or anything. Haze made up the melody and then musicated it, which, IMO automatically would make him a cowrite, but that's beside the point. THEN, I came into the studio and performed it. We were paid $100 (or less, can't remember) and THEN, and ONLY THEN, did you have a viable song. You could now take what we did, and shop it to a publisher who would pay for a better demo or, if he/she thought the work tape was good enough, could shop it to an artist.

So my suggestion to you is, find a musician to work with to put melody and music to your lyrics. In fact, that's my suggestion to ANYONE who writes lyrics but does not make up melodies or play an instrument and sing. It's not a song until it has all of those elements.

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I suppose you could find someone to buy your lyrics but it would probably be under the table. They probably wouldn't want anyone to know they did it.

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Polly,

It is even more segmented that that. Up until around 1964, there were specifically lyricists and composers. You didn't find anyone who did both. In addition, when you were doing things like Broadway, television or movies, there also was a librettist, which was a third person who would do the script and how the songs all worked in together.If you think of movies like the Wizard of Oz, Singing in the Rain, that was usually required.

When people like Bob Dylan came in, it was the beginning of the self contained writers/artist. Then in 64' the Beatles came in and changed every aspect of the game. From there on out everyone pretty much did both.

In Nashville you will have people who might excell at one or the other, but in the real music business there aren't really any such thing as lyric only's or melody only songs. They are written and nothing is left just floating around.

And when someone has the same product as everyone else, and only half finished in the eyes of the industry, it is doubtful someone are going to go to any trouble to "pay" for something everyone has too much of in the first place.

What it leads to are the "Set your poems to music" scams that are always out there.

The best way is to meet a lot of writers, share information and write a lot of songs. That is the way business is done. There are no real short cuts or "secret passages" around that.

MAB

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I hope you guys don't have the notion that the person who puts music to a lyric does not have the right to copywrite the music and own a cowrite of the completed song. The composer does have that right.
Only if it is a work for hire does the melody writer give up that right and it needs to be in a written agreement.
IANAL
but that is
IMHO

Last edited by Bill Robinson; 09/26/10 10:56 AM.

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Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Up until around 1964, there were specifically lyricists and composers. You didn't find anyone who did both.

Hank Williams? Or Jimmie Rodgers or Cole Porter or even all the way back to Stephen Foster.

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Stephen,

There were pockets of them, but Even Cole Porter and Hank Williams often worked with other people on songs for plays, and motion pictures. Much of Hank's stuff was helped along considerbly by his publisher Fred Rose. Cole Porter worked with many of the Broadway lyric writers as well as Hollywood. And Stephen Foster died broke with 37 cents in his pocket. That is why ASCAP was formed.

What I am talking about is the social and business format that was availible up until the 60's, and how the majority of music we know today got there. There are always a few exceptions to the rules.

Many people like the subject of this thread are people that do one or the other. But in this day and age, most people do both and have been doing that since the 60's. And with the economic realities now with fewer people making money, etc. you end up with multiple people on every song doing everything together that is the rule.

The original question was "What is the truth behind 'selling' Lyrics? The truth from my point of view is that there are so many full songs out there and so many writers, there would be no demand for "lyric" only's, outside of some shady deals or some very strange situations. "We set your poems to music" scams that are trying to get writers to pay for poor quality demos and praying upon their dreams.

Lyrics today are much more realistic and coversational, and written mostly with artists to even be considered for comercial release. That means that the artist's lives are the things that are written about. So picking out a random lyric and thinking "That is about me.." for a modern artist, Is so rare as to really not even be a realistic option.

So, yes I do know that the one's you mentioned wrote music and lyrics. They were very rare in their eras. I'm always talking about the general rules and how they developed. Another question that Sam has was "How did all this get this way?"
He apparently has gotten some bad information from people and is trying to find the truth. He lives in Nashville as do I,and I am attempting to share some of what goes on here with him.

Jimmie Rodgers was my Grandmother's second cousin. So this kind of stuff has been going through my family for a long time.

MAB

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HiDee Marc!

I joined NSAI back in the Mid-'80's...back when I think it was JUST "NSA"...was it not? (WAS back when ya COULD hand-carry a Demo along the Row & knock on doors...& get invited-IN..heh-heh!)

Met Tom Long..& other Inspirational Notables..& sat in the audience for several CMA Awards Shows (which I think were UN-televised back in the '80's..quite a Production Now!)

Since I was penning lots-more R&B and Pop, I was also a member of LASS...& I'm still in BMI thanks to getting to know The Brahaneys, among my Lifelong Chums. "Rap" was JUST getting-considered a Genre out there, & Prince ruled the Airwaves.

Much has changed...but the Rules seem to remain the same: Pen what Folks WANT/Get to know WHO can Make It Happen. Oh, and Prepare to be REAL-Patient, too...unless, like ya Put So Well:
"Anybody can make a Million at the Music Business...IF you're prepared to spend 2 Million at it."

Thanks Again for Sharin', Amigo. Hope Sam joins NSAI...I'd re-join too, if'n I had any spare loot these days.

Best Wishes & a Big Guy-Hug,
Stan

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Well,
I read somewhere, maybe in the Carl Smith book included with the Boxed Set, SATISFACTION GURANTEED, that there were lyrics sold by a writer but never indentified that many Artists claimed for their own. So lyrics were sold. Maybe the best way to make any money in the music business.

I doubt Marty Robbins had any help with the songs he wrote. Many before 1964.


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Stan,

Tom Long signed me to ASCAP. A great guy. But no longer in the music business.

Ray, at one time there were many people who sold (or claimed to sell) lyrics, songs, etc. Many changes have been made to the copyright law that legally prohibit it now. But as we all know, not everyone follows the laws.

What I believe you are talking about are called "Catalogue sales." It is where one publishing company (usually a larger one like SONY) would buy out the entire catalogue of another company and include it in their catalogue. SONY did this with TREE publishing in the 90's which was the first big corporate takeover. The bought thousands of songs for around $700 Million dollars. But that included hundreds of huge hits like "He Stopped Loving Her Today."

That has been going on nonstop over the past 30 years. Larger companies buying out small companies, giving lump sums for every thing in their catalogues.

A friend of mine got a Shania Twain cut on a song she had written 12 years before.The original publisher when she wrote the song was a company she wrote for, Balmur publishing which was owned by Canadian artist Anne Murray. Twelve years later, when Shania did her song, she couldn't find where the publishing was. Anne Murray had sold Balmur many years before and as they did tracking, that catalogue had been sold four more times as each successive company came in, bought and sold other companies,
who sold it to other publishers, etc.

They finally found the catalogue had been sold to SONY who owned the ABC television network in LA. The Shania cut was included on the "Desperate Housewives" soundtrack. Owned by ABC which was in turn owned.... by SONY.

In these catalogue sales there may be lyrics, unfinished pieces of songs, disconnected writings, biographies, unfinished demos, etc. They still find things from people like Kristofferson and Willie Nelson.There are probably some lost Hank Williams songs out there. As record keeping in the 50's, 60's, and 70's were pretty shoddy, and people who knew about it died off there is no
telling what is floating around.

The idea of a catalogue sale is just that. You spend a few million on hundreds of pieces of crap in order to find those one or two very valuable copyrights that pay for everything else. In some cases there are songs that were variations of old folk standards or songs that no one quite knows the origin of. They were developed from many sources so no one can really rightly claim ownership. There have been cases of some of these going on to become great hits and the most recent person with the "definable version" gets the credit.

In the case of Marty Robbins, in the 50's and 60's, the publishers had a lot of creative involvement in the writer's careers. So while they might be uncredited at that time, in today's market they would actually be considered co-writers. One of the members of Hank Williams Drifting Cowboys used to say that Fred Rose probably would deserve half credit on some of his big hits. The same with Kristofferson, Harland Howard, and probably Marty Robbins.

It is the same with movies. When they write a script there might be one person credited with it but several people did treatments or drafts. In some things like "Jaws" or other blockbusters, there are several people that are included and bits and pieces from the various treatments go into the final cut. Sometimes the actors even improvise something that works and they are part of it. But they don't nessasarily get writing credit.

Songs can be like that. I have had conversations with some of the "old guard", writers, artists, producers,label people publishers, and there are usually a lot of interesting tales out there. It takes a lot of people to actually build careers. That doesn't take anything away from anyone. Brilliance is brilliance whoever has the responsibility.

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I'm not going to go too deeply into the cowrite matter, because we had this discussion on another thread...but I disagree with the current rules of demos. If someone MAKES UP A MELODY AND MUSIC TO A LYRIC, THAT PERSON IS A COWRITE! This is SEPERATE from if that same person then performs the song on a demo. He or she should be paid seperately for performing the song on a demo because that is more work and time put in. I have investigated this in depth, and if Haze and I do any more demos, and he has to write a melody and put music to a bare lyric, he will be cowrite. We will be paid seperately to perform on the demo. As he is extremely reasonable, ($150 for guitar/vocal and he mixes it down and turns out a high quality product, more often than including more than one instrument just because) we DO NOT see ourselves as "scam artists". If we were charging $1,000 then maybe, but what people get for $150 is a real bargain, and the credentials Haze has behind his name make most people want him as cowrite anyway. It certainly can't hurt!

If someone gives us a SONG, i.e. lyric, melody, chords for music, then we just perform the demo and there is no cowrite. I think that demo people who give their melodies away for $150 are being reamed. IMO, it's much harder to come up with a good melody and set good music to something than to come up with a good lyric. That's just my opinion. I'm not downing lyricists at all, songs aren't songs without lyrics, they are merely instrumentals, and you can't get drunk at a bar and sing to an instrumental (well you could if you were good at making something up on the spot...most drunk people can't do that). I'm just saying it really burns me up when I hear "Well you can't be cowrite if you've agreed to do the demo." I STRONGLY disagree. If the demo person has to write the melody and music, THEY ARE COWRITE in addition to performing the demo.


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Can't really reply to that Polly except to ask if you are paying the Lyric writer for writing the lyric?


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This is going to be a very unpopular view, but, I consider writing the lyric to be about 10% of the entire process of the song. Even if it takes a lyric writer MONTHS to get a lyric down (like it did Travis and I on "Papa Said") it was the MELODY AND MUSIC that gave that song its drive and its hook. The lyric was acceptable enough. The vocal performance drove the song home. There were two versions...mine, and his gal Corey's. Either one could have done the job, although admittedly mine was too pitchy. Hers could have used a little more attitude, but she was on key. Either way, the melody, the awesome musication, the vocal performances, and Travis's accessability to a publisher FAR OUTWEIGH the lyric writing. I estimate that even over 2 months, we probably collectively spent about 4 hours total on the lyric. The rest was way more labor and involved a lot more time.

Again, someone sends in some lyrics, says, "put a melody to it, musicate it AND perform it". Right there, the other person is doing THREE TIMES the work the lyricist is. What's so hard to understand about that? If the person doing all the other stuff also has contacts and is pitching the song, that's a FIFTH wheel involved. AND, only charging $150 TO DO ALL OF THAT is UNDERCHARGING, therefore, the person (in this case, Haze) is way more than putting his share in.


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Polly,

It's your business and it seems legal, so do what you feel is right. Don't expect anyone here to agree with you, though! If you think this is a major issue and it leads to all sorts of problems, then don't accept any demo business where the melody is not already written.

Kevin


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I am sure the Lyric writers on this forum will be happy to know how unimportant they are, and at only 10% of the value of a song really are not needed at all.

Bottom line, Polly, is the melody writer gets a cowrite with the lyricist. No one is arguing that. It's a partnership. It is usually 50/50

Then if you guys want to work out a demo deal that's fine. But I don't think too many people will pay you for writing a melody and give you a cowrite too.

Sam will run into this and he should be aware of it.

Last edited by Bill Robinson; 09/27/10 02:16 PM.

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Haze isn't asking to be paid to write the melody. He's asking for cowrite. He's only asking to be paid to PERFORM the song, RECORD the song, MIX the song, DELIVER the song, and where applicable, PITCH the song. Please don't twist what I'm saying.

I also didn't say lyricists were unimportant. I said the opposite...a song NEEDS lyrics. I think they're about 10% of the entire process, from the beginning of writing the song to the finished result that's ready to be pitched, including the process of pitching itself. That's my opinion. That 10% of the song is just as important as the percentage that is the melody.

IMO, some of you are acting like the lyrics are "all important" and the melody means nothing, nor does the performance of the song. I couldn't disagree more. If you have lyrics with a piss poor melody and weak music and delivery, IMO, you have a song that will go nowhere. People rarely listen to a song just because of the lyric, however, they quite often get hooked on a song because of the music content and melody, not ever even knowing what the lyrics are.

And it's an insult to me to hear that Sam should "beware" of people like Haze and me! At $150 for a quality finished product, I hardly think we're scammers! It would be GREAT if we got songs complete with melodies, but that rarely happens. We get songs mostly from lyricists who can't write melodies and ask for Haze's help. They simply give us words...no melody, no music, no arrangement, and say, "Here, take this block of cement and turn it into a beautiful sculpture. I've made a few marks here and there, but I need you to chisel it and sand it and polish it until it becomes a "Venus".

Last edited by Polly Hager; 09/27/10 06:34 PM.

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First and foremost, it's really strange to hear that I should beware of anyone or anything on Music Row. After 6 years in Nashville, I know all this....believe me.

People, I write for the love of the art...I also am learning to play tribal rhythms on a djembe for that same reason, the love of the art.

My only real motive for asking all of this is to fill a certain curiosity about how these things are actually made to happen.
Who knows if I should ever seriously decide to change my mind?

I am indeed a lyricist, I write from street level and do well to tell my stories as I see them unfold.
The percentage of importance that a lyric in and of itself lends to the finished song is entirely up to the individual, not one person to decide. However, the song isn't a song without lyrics, it's instrumental music. That is universal.

Such is my perspective on the whole thing.


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Wow, ya'll are sure popping back and forth today. In my opinion, Sam, you write what YOU feel is right for you. As much as we talk about commercialism (whatever that means, I am not really talking about money as much as reaching the widest possible audience) the first and foremost person you write for is YOU.

When you step into the world of commercial writing, again, just talking about reaching the widest audience, you have to start thinking in terms of what OTHER people are interested in. If you do what you want to do and they accept and embrace it, great. If they don't you either have to adapt somewhat or just accept it.

Polly, today I have been teaching a guy to play the songs he and I have been writing. Over the past few months, he has been playing them out but they haven't been working.So we got back together to see why that is. In each one, he has put in more chords, more STUFF than the songs call for. So we have been simplyfing.

Much of this has to do with the types of music you are doing. Rock, pop, alternative, depend on a lot of musical movement, so you have more things involved. Country music is all about the story and lyrics. We keep the basic framework on the music much simpler because the story carries the song.

Over the past few months I have been involved in a lot of benefits. From the Hati earthquake, the BP oil spill and the Nashville flooding, it feels like we have had one long benefit. That puts me on stage with a lot of hit writers. In the songs they played,plus my own that have been cut, the majority are VERY simple. If you break them down, there is not a lot to them musically. The lyrics drive the story. Even in the ones I have cut, they are basically two verses,choruses and out. Not even that many bridge.

The Music gets them there,the lyrics keep them there. And they both have to work together. Just like a song written only on emotion and no realistic visual furniture, will lose people's attention because there is very little way to portray an emotion differently. Everyone has had them. The visual furniture provide the mental image that keeps their attention.

The music has to be familiar so people can sing along with it. Without a good singability factor, the public forgets it immediately.

What you and Haze do is not a rip off. Haze is very talented and a great guy. As long as you are up front about what is involved, you are fine. I think there are not as many scams as there are people that overpromise and underdeliver.

That is where it gets into rip offs.

MAB

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I hear you, Polly.

The truth is, any value we place on each piece of a song is whatever the writers agree on. It's all subjective. If you agree to all be equal partners, that's good. If you decide to go 90%/10%, that's fine too...it's all worth whatever you agree on.

But I recall a conversation I once had with a lyricist who wanted me to compose music for one of his pieces...he made it clear to me that he felt entitled to the lion's share of the song because he figured it was basically a finished song and concept, and that since the music I put to it would be guided entirely by that finished lyric, my contribution was therefore more of an assistant role than an equal role. BUT---and this is the good part---he decided to be "a good guy" and go 50/50 with me.

I wrote him back and said, "So you're basically telling me 'Here's my half of the package, the lyrics. Now you do your half---the genre, style, melody, chord structure, arrangement, vocals, harmonies, bass, drums, keys, guitars, strings, performance, tracking, production, mixing, mastering and all that silly music stuff.'"

I declined his offer.

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When it comes to finding someone to give you the truth about writing country songs today I doubt many of you will cross paths with anyone who knows as much about the reality of it than Marc who is also willing to hang with you all and answer questions straight up without the bull. If you disagree or don't like his answer that is fine, but make no mistake my money is on that he's right and you're just disgruntled.

There are many things I defer to Marc completely and this is one of those thing. We may disagree on other topics (and often do) and I feel in some areas my expertise trumps his knowledge. But arguing with Marc on writing country songs with an eye on success in Nashville is about as futile and feeble as it gets. Will some Lyric only writer who is an outsider somehow find success in the field via ways Marc doesn't acknowledge? Probably. And someone often defies the odds in the lottery and actually wins it. So out of the million songwriter wannabe's out there are you the 1 that might make it outside of conventional pathways? Do you want to bet your life's work and pursuit and all that time proving Marc wrong? Life is short, but whatever floats your boat.

I'll say what I always do in these cases.. do you want to make great "art" or do you want to make yourself into an attractive commercial product? Only the best of the best can do both. For me personally, making great art is more important. For Marc, I think he's chosen the commercial route. Neither way is wrong. But making great art is wide open. Making great commerce is far more limited and has a long long line waiting for another long line of gatekeepers who couldn't care less if any of us existed, and only cares about making a quick and more importantly easy buck.

Good luck and thanks to Marc for telling it like it is.

Brian


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Thanks for that Brian. But I am far from the athority on anything. Just see a lot of people and the things they do. Most are MUCH more successful than I am.

My entire thing is about being understood and accessable in your chosen market.Whether that is making music your wife, husband, boy, girlfriend, kids, cousins, or friends and loved ones, or shooting for the biggest cut you can get, the principal is pretty much the same.

Writing it the best you can, get it represented in some form of demo and out to as many avenues as you can. Having more people like you than not liking you is pretty much what it boils down to for my money.

MAB

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Polly,

My my, you sure opened up a can of worms here. smile
my opinion for what it's worth is there is many things that have to come together on a really good song but i think without a doubt you have to have a stellar vocal performance with the right kind of emotion conveyed to really SELL the song and make people want to hear it again and again. that is what i think is the root of the problem of unsuccessful singer songwriters.
Again-just my opinion,

john

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Marc, I agree that country style music "marries" lyrics and music more equally than other styles. I agree with Brian that YOU are the expert in this field, and at this point, I most often take your words as gospel (and am glad you are here to offer your advice).

I was responding to what Bill said more than anything. Situations are different too. Haze is a unique talent to bring to the demo table. Everyone I've spoken to (lyricists here) agree. He's not just some Joe Blow who tinkers with songs. He's an extremely gifted, experienced musician with outstanding professional credentials and a very impressive career. We might be approaching the demo business a bit differently than some, but he feels he's earned the right to do that, and I have to agree with him.

Mark, you TOTALLY get where I'm coming from, being a "bells and whistles" type of musician who adds a lot musically...you probably spend AT LEAST 40 hours on the musication and production of a song! Then you toss and turn all night thinking of what you need to tweak. Lyricists in general don't get that. A lyricist has one task...to write a lyric that satisfies them and/or the cowrite they are working with. They don't fire up a studio, plug in multiple instruments, record multiple tracks, go over everything when mixing it down with a fine-toothed comb, and add effects as necessary. They pick up a pen and paper and write something. They might well wake up in the middle of the night and jot something down (I do), but then they go back to sleep, while a musician's mind is tormented by what needs to be moved up front, or backed off, or a different chord progression, or something else to be added.

I'm getting that multi-tasking musicians are undervalued and underappreciated. That's how I perceive this. Country, okay, SOME country is simple. Some is not...especially modern country that can mainstream into pop.

John, I agree with your opinion as well, thanks for weighing in.

Last edited by Polly Hager; 09/28/10 12:26 AM.

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