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Hi Everyone,

I read thru the 50 some posts on the topic of demo quality--and it's obvious to me that a great song is a complete package--lyrics, melody and a great demo. I just have a few questions left--at what point do you stop buying gear and just let the "pro's" do it. And does anyone have a studio they could recommend for great demos along with a ballpark price one could expect to spend? I realize a demo price depends on #tracks,etc--just looking for a few good names and some ball park prices. Thanks Again As Usual,
Roger

Roger,

You stop buying gear and doing it yourself when you run out of either ability, money or desire.

Hey Roger,

welcome to JPF!

I'd say - just one man's opinion, though - buy what you need and/or like to have without breaking the bank. Keep some money for professional demos.

My pattern is to home-record each and every song I write, doing the best I can, but keeping those demos to myself or for peer-feedback purposes.

But when comes the time to pitch a song - that is when most of your peers and professional critiques tell you you're up to something special with that song, which doesn't happen every day - I always demo with a professional studio based in the same area the publisher/plugger/whatever lives in. Because there's a Nashville sound, a New York City sound, an LA sound, etc. An no one, if they're not a pro working in those specific studios, even with all the greatest gear in the world, is able to produce those specific sounds, which I think necessary to pitching purposes.

Hope some of this helps. Cheers,
Yann

PS: you can get great full-band demos from 400 to 650 US $ in Nashville, slightly more than that in the other music centers.

When you get a song that is good enough to be pitched and you are in a position where your songs are getting heard by folks that can make decisions. For most of us, this means never.

Now, on the other hand (as with everything) lessons can be learned by doing. I am sure that if I took 2 or 3 of my "best" songs and had them pro demo'd, I would learn invaluable lessons that would make me a better writer. It is a confusing state of affairs.

Kevin

Hi Yann,

That's a good point about each area having it's own sound I never even thought of that. Have you ever heard of the mixing service broadjam offers? It's run by someone named Craig Anderton. He does a full mix for a full band for under $200--if the song is under 5 minutes. Again I just mention this cause I'm thinking you get what you pay for. Just wondering if anyone ever used that service.

When everything is said and done... NEVER (it's just not in my blood)

When you have your own tracks, and need a singer:
http://www.demosinger.com/index.php?logout=1
http://www.purevocals.org/indexx.html

Lot's of pro musicians does overdubs online too. You can even have Brent Mason on - beat that! http://www.myspace.com/thebrentmason




Here's a chosen few:

http://www.garyearl.com/ (Gary Earl knows his stuff)
http://www.reddragonpro.com/ (Scott Gerow is a top notch guy)
http://www.magicshackdemos.com/ (Totally pro sounding stuff from Jason Roller, Nashville a-team players)
http://www.nashvilledemostudio.com/pricing.htm (their prices are including master rights, which means you can get the demo on radio, sell it on CD Baby, or get it in TV/Film (unless they won't take songs with union rates, which actually is the most common in the US)).
http://www.jaysplacerecording.com/ (JPF mentor Marc-Alan Barnette, when you need soul!)
http://www.substudiomusic.com/services.html (JPF mentor Mike Caro, when you need to rock it up!)

Try to use a variety of studios for your portfolio, so everything doesn't end up sounding the same..

justmy2c

Airchair,

No one can tell you what you need to pay. I don't know your songs, I don't know your station in life. I know what I have to do and what most of the pros have to do.
You can buy gear all day until you are blue in the face. You are rarely going to have the same licks, the same nuances as the guys who do it all day long and who play on the major records you hear on the radio. That is what Nashville has.

A full up production demo is going to be from $450 on the low side to $1200 on the high side, with around $500 being the norm.Your competition, the hit writers pay around $1000 per song. The $200-$300 demos, sound like it. A factory, that songs come in, are done quickly and have very little extras to them. Not bad, but you do get what you pay for. Most people I have ever known, or most demos I have heard for those prices, sound just like that. They are blown away by the more involved demos.

There are multi instrumentalists who do a lot themselves and they are very good. For my money, they never have the same stuff that four or five guys playing live, reading each other, and knowing the inner language that those guys speak.

You hvae go to look at this as more than just a demo on some particular song. It is about your level as a writer. Your committment to your craft. Your desire to play on the same ball surface as everyone else does. It is never about one song. It is about many songs and an ongoing relationship with the other writers you encounter and your own songwriter's universe.

That is why you write a lot of songs, and why you only demo the best of the best. You have to look at it as if this was "the last money you were ever going to spend." How important is that to you? What do you want to play for your friends, family, people you don't know through My Space, Face Book? What would you want to be the first impression someone gets of you. Someone that might end up being the key to your career?

Answer those questions and you will know what to spend. There are dozens of studios, hundreds of choices. Ask other people who's songs you respect, where they did their demos, what they paid. Go to those web sites. Send e-mails to those studios. Take your time and learn what you are doing.

MAB

Hi Marc,

I was hoping you were going to respond. I have read many of your insightful posts. I think it's fantastic that someone with your experience takes the time to help out newbies like myself. Everything you said makes perfect sense. And I will take the time to learn what I am doing--I just hope I don't run out of time first. LOL. I wish I would have started about 20 years ago. Also, it would be a big help if I had a nice big bag of cash to start out with. Thanks For your input,
Roger

hi Marc,

One other thing--if your curious about my song(only have one so far) I posted it under the mp3 forum--it's called bailout blues--along with the lyrics. I know it's got a long way to go--but ya got to start somewhere-right? I currently work with one other songwriter--hopefully may change over time.
Roger

Roger,

Normally song critiques are something I am paid to do. But for people involved in JPF and other forums I participate in, I do a free critique. I do need you to MP3 it to me and send it to my private e-mail address, MBarne4908@aol.com. It just helps cut down my time I spend looking for something and I can respond to you directly. Just remind me who you are and the nature of our conversation.

I look at demo's a bit differently than many people do. I use them not only to pitch a certain song, but believe that they are a certain element of accomplishment. As writers, we all reach higher and higher levels, and it is good to have a representation of that as you go along. I have demoed many a song that might have not stood a chance as a pitch but gave me a sense of accomplishment as I continued on my journey. And I have demoed several songs (sometimes feels like hundreds) that might have just been a good idea at the time.

But there are other uses for demos. Everything now is a My Space or Face book moment. We all have web sites. They represent our overall catalogue. They represent us to other writers for potential future co-writes. And you never know how someone will respond to what you do. If you have a really good representation of your song, it can help you in many ways. I have recieved cuts from out of the way places, independent bands and singers that might not have record deals but have large local or regional fan bases.
And guess what, that can give you OTHER demos on your song. I have had songs that have gotten up to eleven versions on the same song, based around multiple artists doing their own versions. You just don't know what is going to happen with songs or the journey they take you on.

So the key to anything, co-writing, solo writing, performing, recording, networking, business, is about doing homework, getting outside of yourself, getting various opinions, being open to change and working hard.

Write for yourself. Demo when you feel it's right and when you want to make your own statement. That is what you are doing this for.

MAB

Hi Roger remember that before having a pro demo made you have to have something worth demoing and someone to pitch it to.
You must also be prepared to write the money off that you spend on the demo as 99.9% of demos get nowhere.

Re buying equipment etc. Buy what you want an can afford. But treat it as a hobby and have fun. Few will ever make money from songwriting.
That does not mean you give up hope and stop trying. Just be aware.

Well,
If you want to do it yourself then go ahead. There are free programs, or I have been told that you can download into your computer such aa the Audicy Program.

You can buy Digital Recorders and Budget Microphones if you play an instrument and record that way.

You can Google Demo Services in a State and see what is avaliable or in Nashville, for instance.

I was using an old Reel to Reel Recorder, (Remember those?) until the one I was using died. Then I bought a Tascam 4 Track Cassette recorder and used a couple of Microphones I bought in the early 60's to record Guitar/Vocals. I still use it. I have a Stand Alone CD Recorder that I copy to for submissions.

Some use a computer and a Program to make demos. Whatever works.
You can spend loads of money on recording equipment or loads of money on Pro Demos. It is done every which way.

There is a big diff between a home recording and a pro demo. Home recordings are OK to try things out and get feedback etc. If you are serious about pitching the concensus from people in the know is that it has to be a pro performed and recorded demo. The days of a rough worktape selling a song or artist are well and truly finished.

are they truly gone? that could cause some very good music to never make it to the public..such as my own LOL...I have been writing songs for over 20 years, and just recently started thinking seriously about trying to get them out...all the locals that hear them love most, but seriously, as an LPN with 2 babies, the cost of demos kinda runs with the old adage...demo in one hand or food in the other for the kids...home cd's or mp3s is about my only option...it doesn't damper my enthusiasm about writing but makes me wonder if I ever will get heard...

I moved to Nashville in 1988 and the days of the guitar vocal demo had been over for about 10 years before I got here. 13 inch black and white televisions are gone too. Another thing that is not coming back. Progress moves on.

MAB

I still think a great great song and a good guitar vocal will get you through the door. However, writing a song great enough to do that is about as likely as a member of JPF walking on the moon this year.

Sausage,

I wish that were true. Of course people in Hell want Ice Water too. The thing you have to always remember is what your competition is doing. The doors are open, the back doors that is, to people who are doing very interesting things and are running in the right circles. But everyone has their own dogs in the hunt. That is the real problem. You have to look at it like this:

Every body you need, every co-writer, every artist, every producer, publisher, plugger, record person, radio people, etc. are your competition. They are all writers. They are all trying to get connected. They are all trying to get their songs heard. This is one of the truley biggest mistaken impressions in the industry. That people are sitting around "looking" for material. They are not. They are overwhelmed with what they already have. They have tons of stuff they can't even get heard.

Reality checks come when you sit with multi platinum writers and artists that complain about not being able to get people to listen to their material. And that is the problem with the "good song." There are too many "good songs." Everyone needs "great songs" or they record "THEIR songs."

It is never impossible. Every song and artist on the radio at one time or another were trying to do the same thing. Listening to everyone complain about demos, and not being able to get their songs heard. But they managed to persevere. But they did it by understanding how the game is played. And great demos, and well written songs, coupled by a LOT of networking and contacts. Are how that game is played.

A great song, sure. Gotta have em.' That's a given. But you also better be so well represented that a fool can hear them, because that often is who is listening to them. And they listen to a LOT of them. So everything you can do to give yours a better chance is essential, not just suggested.

MAB

Marc,
You get around. Who is in the studio, choice of words, recording as we speak. Is your friend recording yet? Is it slow or is there a lot of action?

For the record even with a super demo, getting it in front of someone can be difficult at best. I always like to let my songs speak for me. A lot of demo companies do offer a basic Guitar/Vocal. One thing you will need to be aware of, everyone wants a piece of your song to get you advanced to the next step so be aware of what you may be asked to give up. and be sure to get something in return, it's how the game is played.

I'm too old and live too far away to do much networking. So I figure I'm gonna treat it like a lottery. If I can get a publisher interested, maybe they'll help on the demo. I figure that's my only hope at this point. Even in the best of times for the best of writers, it ain't easy to get a cut.

The odds are a little better than the lottery. The lottery is pure luck and there is always the chance they'll like the song. You don't win a lottery because they like the number.

I ain't saying I won't get a better demo. It's still gonna be hard no matter what.

So, I'm getting ready to walk on the moon. It'll be good for my arthritis.

Well, none of us here is first call in Nashville. That matters too, when a song is pushed into the loop, I think.

"Guit/voc" is also quite a relative concept. The homemade 'pure' guit/voc is an absolute no-go, but a studio guit/voc can also contain another guitar and backing vocals, and even a keyboard pad - ending up sounding almost like a full one (if the song is right). I've heard several of those pitched by a high profile Nashville songplugger.

I would think that there's also a process with the demos, like when a writer is testing the waters with a (good) guit/voc and then decides on a full demo, if it catches on for a particular artist.. then the demo can also be a lot more focused.. would that be about right, Marc?

Magne,

As always, my Danish eating smoked fish kind of dude, you are exactly right on.

We all start out with some kind of raw recording. This is a work tape and can vary from boom box to lap top recording to any number of home done tapes. This is to give us an idea of what we have and the ability to play it with other songs in context.

A "next step" would be the guitar vocal, which might include one or two guitar parts, some harmonies, etc. usually done a track at a time. There are even different layers to this, if you do it yourself, hire someone to do it in a more professional context.

There are also the "level II" recordings which can include drum tracks, keyboard effects, etc. Usually even a little more involved. Some of these actually can be pitched depending on the skill of the people doing it.

The last are the "Full up" or full demos. This is usually where a studio and other musicians take the bull by the horns and put it into a radio ready sounding product.This is what most Nashville and today's contemporary pitches come from. And since so much of today's music is a "do it yourself" project (without backnig from a publishing or record company) we have to think of these as our calling cards, through My Space, Face book, Rhapsody, CD, Baby, or other related web sites and forums like these. That is what represents us when we aren't there.

Every writer should work through these levels depending on their own budget, circumstances and methods. There is no right or wrong way. Just results. The more thought you put into it and the more care you put into development, the better your end result will be.

MAB

Ray,

It you are referring to Frankie Ballard, the artist I was working with last year, he has recorded about 8 songs and his first single is out next month. The other people that I have worked with, Steel Magnolia are around number 5 this week with their song, "Keep on Loving You" and are the fastest rising duo in country history. My involvement with them, writer Julie Moriva and Frankie have all been in writing with them and an advisory role on their career's.

There are a number of steps all of us go through at any level. In many cases, even the stars themselves will do "demos" on a song first to see if they want to committ the full resources for a finished project. One of the reasons Jeffery Steel gets the cuts he does is his full demos often provide the "testing ground" on many songs before the "full up" plug is pulled. If you were to go through his catalogue, you would hear many of the Rascal Flatts, Faith Hill, and Montgomery Gentry songs in their development stages. There are also several of the same that didn't make the final cut.

Then there are songs that are even recorded but don't make the final cut on a CD. I had a Patty Loveless cut that was this way. The song was recorded and ready to be released, but didn't make it down to the final CD. Often, these are called "Cut outs" and might wind up on another record or one of the "three new songs" on the Greatest Hits" CD's.

Lee Anne Rhymes had to actually sue her Father once for releasing a full CD of "cut outs" against her will. It is a strange business no matter what level you are in.

MAB

Well...being kinda new to the forum, (I was here once before as Tinkertoi and couldn't remember log in..about 5 years ago) after your answer to me Mark, I went to your website, and read through some of your posts the last 24 hours...so I chose not to take the remark about the 13 inch tv as a sarcastic answer to a dreamer LOL...actually I feel honored that you took the time to answer my post and am learning vast info quickly just by scooting around and reading your posts...and reality as the saying goes bites...I will find a way..because I am a writer and I believe in my songs, because they are life, they are reality either lived or witnessed and always have been and they are a part of me...I always wrote simply to entertain others or release tension but being older and wiser as time goes I really believe there are many out there who would find relation or possibly comfort or just a "damn straight" from the songs I have been writing since I was 14...I live in a small area, Blytheville,AR and building contacts is nonexistent here, but I will keep reading your posts as well as others, and I know the ole gravel in my veins has always kept me driven when I set my mind to something and this I must find a way to do...not just for me...for the 2 girls I must teach to believe in themselves also...so I'll keep reading and writing and pull some extra shifts to start trying for some demos...

tina anderson

Hi Tina. I just read your comments in this post and I have to say I am impressed with your passion and determination to get ahead.

I joined JPF about 6 months ago and prior to that hadn’t written a country song (at least worth mentioning in my mind lol) and this whole site and the members here have been a real eye opener for me.

I have learnt so much and so many have helped me along the way. I do think that my writing skills have improved immensely through being a member here.

Maybe I had the skills before but had no direction.

I live in London and therefore expect that writing county where the market doesn’t really exists gives me a disadvantage anyway..lol..

Having demo’s done to a high standard is expensive and really not something that I can afford, but I do it anyway.

Sure I work tons of extra shifts myself to pay for it and often struggle to make ends meet, but I have always believed that if you have a belief in something then giving it 150% is the only way to go.

Balance that with the fact that my children are grown up and don’t need me to support them anymore and I don’t have lots of bills to pay and maybe it’s not that tough for me.

You have growing children and they must always come first. Maybe you should start by posting some lyrics, then based on the responses tighten them up and try to get a collaboration going. And keep on learning.

At least then you will have a basis to move forward.

Maybe along the road a bit have just one demo made if only to see what your songs would be like with that extra dimension. Who knows where you path will lead then.

Anyway that’s my 2cents worth and a cent aint worth a lot theses day lol


God Bless Roy and Helen

OskaSeason thanks for the reply...and I will post some lyrics and see what you good people think...appreciate all feedback critique sincerely...when i get a program to record on here I'll do a rough guitar/vocal and you can get the true feel for it better that way...will search for one tomorrow...

tina anderson

I just typed up a quick memory recall of a song I wrote when I was 19..put it in the lyric forum, called sweet friend of mine...I'm going to be reworking it around some melody wise and probably title and a few lines also cause I have changed alot in the 20 years since I've wrote it, but it was the first thing that popped into my mind..ya head on over there and tear me to shreds LOL...seriously I can handle all criticism...it's how ya learn

tina anderson

Tina,

Writing is something we do because we are drawn to it. I have a line in a song called "Tables and Chairs" which states:

"You don't choose music, music chooses you."

That is the truth no matter how you slice it. So you should always write and be a part of expressing yourself. That is why you are given talents. Part of the reason we are here.

But when you want to start making that step "outside of yourself" and going toward a specific industry, it becomes a different animal. The demo is one of the biggest challenges writers face in their careers. And you have to look at a lot of sides at each thing you do. You are very unlikely to ever make a dime from them, so you have to look at what you spend as a statement of your craft and journey. Not always as an "investment" because unfortunately, very very few of those investments ever pay for themselves.

I look at demos in a much different way than many people do. Most writers get the demos for pitching purposes and that is fine, but far from the only one. I will tell you a story I have told in other places, but shows you how it can pay off.

About 6 years ago, I had a woman approach me on one of my songwriter "tours" of Nashville. She was over 50, a teacher from Green Bay Wisconsin, Mother and wife. She was the coordinator of the NSAI group in Green Bay and had a wonderful bubbly personality that was infectious to be around. As a writer she was pretty basic, saying the same things, kind of same songs everyone does. And she did not perform or sing. About everything that would hold a writer back. But she had that great personality.

My tours consist of spending a day or multi days working on existing material, going around the town, meeting people, and actually writing new material. It is showing the writer how things work and don't work.

The main thrust of this woman's journey was not to be a star. She wanted to make a statement. Her husband, who was pretty archaic in his views (the woman should be in the home, cooking, cleaning, raising kids),her friends and relatives were of the "oh, isn't that nice" point of view about her "little hobby."
She was on a quest to prove herself, most of all, to herself.

The first night led to her being included in an advanced writer's group at ASCAP. That caused her to need to be in town once a month for six months. During that time she booked me and worked continually. Over two years she made many trips and brought me to Green Bay, where I worked with her entire NSAI group.

After two years a little at a time we had done about 14 demos. Now part of this was to pitch. But part were several other reasons. She wanted her own CD, featuring her songs, done professionally, packged right, that she could say "This is what I have accomplished." She was also a part time school teacher, so her money was saved very carefully for the project. The idea was that if she never did anything else, this would be the statement she made for her journey. Not being an artist, there was never going to be much made in the way of sales, most would be for givaways. But it was her statement. And as important as anything else she could do.

Another aspect was to help others. Several of the songs were written by myself and a young 19 year old female singer from New Orleans. They became best of friends and in her many trips, they hung out and she provided work for the young girl.

After the two year mark we did a Nashville "showcase" based around her music, with me forming a band and having several artists sing her song. At that time, all the people she had been meeting over the years all came together. She was suddenly accepted on the Nashville level and the CD was exactly the same kind of project we all have to do. It was her statement.

Fast forward to now, six years later. Three months ago, that woman,Julie Moriva signed a full publishing deal with Big Machine, the publishing company owned by Taylor Swift. The singer, Megan Lindsey, is one half of Steel Magnolia, the fastest rising duo in country music history. They are in the top 10 this week with their current single and Julie has the next single. Big Machine now pays for all of Julie's demos, sets her up with the top writer's in town and basically she is in the best position anyone can hope for, a major company with all the drive and political muscle (and money) we would need.

Now she has to continue to deliver. And that is the real hard part.

The point is, that it started with well written songs, demoed in a way that attracted people in the industry to her, and put her on their playing field. The writing and networking led to better and better songs, and better and better contacts. The demos were a calling card, which represented her in a myriad of way aside from just the songs themselves. Her My Space site alone led to a half dozen cuts which paid her money as well.

So things can be done. You just have to plan what you are doing and be smart. You have an NSAI group in Little Rock and a few more around the state. Start there. Get around other writers. Co-write as much as you can. Helps to share the costs of demos, trips to music centers, whatever. It starts with the first step of getting outside yourself.


Good luck,

MAB

Well,
The "Norm" in Nashville is the super demo. It is what everyone is used to. And it probably gets a song listened to more often. However it is still an uphill battle to get heard because there are tons and tons of songs to review so getting thru the clutter is a crap shoot at best.

Demos can be expensive from $250.00 to over a $1000.00 in NASHVILLE. So you have to be very selective when and where you may have an expensive demo done. Keep writing and learn how to play an instrument and do some home recordings. One way is when you join a PRO you can make an appointment with your PRO and they may get you an appointment with a Publisher.

I wonder when Marc last saw a 13 inch Black and White T.V. I think the first one I saw was about 8 inches or so. And so it goes.

Ray,

I saw one recently. It is what made me think of them. There is a store here that sells all kinds of those trivia items, like the plastic furniture of the sixties, the old aluminum Christmas trees, etc. for THOUSANDS of dollars. It is nuts. I don't think the TV works but it is a collector's item I guess.

The biggest thing people have to remember is how many other people are all trying to do the same thing. Tina's comment:

"I will find a way..because I am a writer and I believe in my songs, because they are life, they are reality either lived or witnessed and always have been and they are a part of me"

Is something I hear on an almost daily basis. And it is the truth. No one should ever let anyone tell them what they can and can't do. As a writer we can and should write whatever we want to. But as always, there is no right to be heard. So we have to play the rules as the established players do.

A lot of time we have these heated arguments from people out the periperies of the music business. People wonder, "why do the demos have to be so good? Why can't I just do the guitar vocal? Why do I have to spend so much money?"

To a writer who has achieved success this is pretty insulting. You see, all of us who have achieved any level of success or live here have given up everything.We have given up security, jobs, home, family, etc. to all move to a town that we don't know, had to find a way no matter how hard it was. We have to work four and five jobs to stay alive, have to still go to writer's nights, and find time to write with others. We have all the pressures everyone else does, kids, family, significant others, bills, etc. but we still have to find a way. And nobody pays for the things we do until we start achieving success.

So people who make those statements are really saying "I don't want to have to do what you do. I don't want to leave my kids and job. I have a decent house. I don't want to give that up. I need my vacation. I want my boat. Whatever. I don't want to have to do the demo. My wife wants that new couch. But I want the same success you have. I want people to hear my songs. I believe in what I am doing. Everybody needs to hear me."

The writer's nights, the trips, the writing with others, the demos, the networking, the expense, waiting in line, being frustrated and rejected is all part of "pledging the fraternity, saying "I know what you are going through, I'll do that too."

The demos are a huge part of the process. Just have to be smart about it.

MAB

There is a writer who used to and I assume still does walk the streets of Nashville down around Music Row. I don't know him personally. It is only through the I-net that I know who he is. He quite often echoes what you have said Marc about "leaving it all to come to Nashville and do songwriting as a living." He says it as if that gives him some right to stardom that others don't have. He speaks of how good his songs are, how his demos are top rate and I think he's even set up focus groups to judge his music. For all his self promoting glory of his greatness though, he still hasn't had a hit or a major cut.

Then a girl like Carrie Underwood or a woman like Susan Boyle goes on a TV show featuring Simon Cowell and makes history. No pounding of the Music Row pavement, no knocking on music center door after door after door, no paying for "knock 'em dead demos." Some would say "They didn't pay no dues!"

The payment of dues can be done in many different forms of currency. For some, it's staying in some little city working as an accountant doing boring numbers crunching stuff all day long. For some it's years of playing in bars, smelling smoke, getting drunk, and being divorced. Either way, I see it as dues paying.

I went to Nashville with a head full of dreams and a little bit of talent. Maybe it was enough, maybe it wasn't. I was down on the row three or four days a week and some people still remembered me a couple of years ago but we sure couldn't shoot the breeze as easily as we used to. Whatever I had back then, I eventually realized I had to get a regular job. And there came a day of despair when I decided to leave, always planning to return in a few months. Then I met a woman. Her available smile suddenly meant more than more than dreams on Music Row. For me, her smile faded long ago. By that time my mom was older and fragile and my job paid well with benefits. And now, 20 years after I left, I'm the one who's growing feeble. And Nashville's different than it used to be. There's a naked statue at the big intersection. ASCAP's in a huge building and the old HOF building is part of the big BMI building. The Nashville Network is gone, Opryland is gone, even Johnny Cash and his house are gone. Conway's been gone from Nashville about as long as I have. I wonder who they miss more LOL.

We all make choices in life. Like McDill and Seals wrote: "Someday you're gonna know the cost, for everything you win there's something lost."

A long long long time ago I heard a fairly major talent with a supersize ego say "having a lot of talent doesn't mean you'll make it and not having talent doesn't mean you won't make it." That's what I hope people understand. If you don't understand that fact, you can grow real bitter. I didn't get bitter about music. Well, except for the fact me and Alan Jackson showed up in Nashville at about the same time. I like to say he stole my thunder :-)

I wish now I'd stayed in Nashville. People gave me advice on demos back then just like Marc is sharing now. I didn't take it. I can't sing so I know I wouldn't have been another Alan Jackson but who knows, I might have been a Peanut Montgomery.
"For everything you win there's something lost."

Well, this has been a cathartic trip down Memory Lane.

On the History Channel at 9 PM Eastern there is a Program Something Pickers where these guys are canvassing places that have a lot of old stuff they buy. And at 10 PM the Pawn Stars Show is on. Both are pretty interesting. It is amazing what people want that is from yesterday. You can also see a bit of it in the Cracker Barrel Resturaunts.

Sausage,

I have so many near miss stories it's not even funny. I moved in 88', got a cut my first night in town. It took a year to come together, and in that time I was approached by everybody you could imagine. Major publishers, record producer, label people. Doug Grau of Warner Brothers came to a show and said "Man, If I had only seen you earlier. Three weeks ago I was in Marietta Ga. and signed a guy just like you. His name is Travis Tritt."

That was me. Always nearly there. but never could grab that brass ring. And it often was not my fault. A lawyer demands more money from a publishing company laying off all their writers, throwing the contract back in the face of the president of the company. While I was OUT of town.

Getting cuts but no singles. Getting the single but the artist quits his record deal. Getting a cut but doesn't make the CD. Getting the single, doing the video, but the president of the record company DIES before it is released.

Yeah, you get bitter. And like that guy you mentioned, you wonder what you have done wrong. Especially when your co-writers, musicians in your back up band, back up singers, all seem to shoot to the top then have all the hits, money and whatever you always wanted. That is the business.

And you have to be prepared for it. The dues paying comes in a lot of ways. For this discussion I am talking more of demos but they are all interelated. People expect you to play on the playing field they do and while some people, Susan Boyle, Carrie Underwood, and even Steel Magnolia, some clients of mine that have shot to the top of the charts, might not seem to have "paid their dues", but actually they did. I remember them night after night working Karaoke nights to make money. Actually, they were working one night when a guy came in and SHOT the Karaoke host dead in front of them. So a lot of people pay dues we don't see.

The real point is that we have to understand all the angles and have to think very hard on everything we do, every move we make, every person we meet. There is always someone there to separate us with our money, and demos can be a big way of doing it. Mostly, just talk to people who have done all of that before you.

Ray, that is another thing that has become huge. The "Antique Road show" pawn shop, all those "Treasures in your attic" are all over the place. Which of course makes people think that the lamp they have had that their grandmother gave them are one of a kind classics. Unfortunately, most of the time it turns out to be just another crappy old lamp covered with green shag carpet.

But such is life. One man's trash is another man's treasure.

MAB

Marc...do you know of a studio in Memphis that you would recommend for demos? I'm about an hour from the bridge and that would be my best option when I get the funds to actually do a demo, cost efficiency is a plus, but considering I'll have to pay instrumentalist to play on the demo because my guitar skills are ok enough to play for home and a local group of friends they definitely aren't good enough to be on the demo..how would I know which instruments I would need? I would rather not go full band unless I just had to, I know drums and guitar, lead and rhythm? keyboards? bass? I want it to be good enough that they will actually listen to it when they get to my demo in the pile of thousands that they probably have to filter through LOL...there's a studio about 30 minutes from me in Caruthersville, MO that I talked to today and the owner had me sing part of a song for him on the phone and he actually offered me free studio time with himself and a few friends playing for me if I would do demo singing for him because he has customers that write but cannot sing and need a singer but when I asked who his players were I knew them and know their skills aren't something I want to put on something that may catch A&R attention..if I'm going to do it, I want it right...and if I'm going to invest it's got to be worth the price. I did offer to sing on demos for a price negotiable and that would help in acquiring the money for the "right" place to do the demo...he said he'd get back with me on that LOL

Once I am able to do the demo where do I go from there? How do you find out who's accepting new material? I know it's a lot different from the old days when you could just walk in the door or put something in the mail and somebody would listen to it..how do I go about finding places to send my demos to when I get to make them or it LOL..I know I'm picking your busy brain and asking alot for alot of info, but basically I can't afford to do your tour (which would be a dream come true in itself) so I have to basically wing it and gather info on my own so believe me from the heart everything you and the others say I am paying attention and very thankful to read it

tina anderson

Tina,

A few things you need to think about. Number one, where are you going to be pitching your songs? The reason is that a rule of thumb is usually "If you are going to pitch songs in Nashville, you really should record in Nashville." There are a few reasons for that. First of all, the players we use are often the same one's that play on the major sessions on records on the radio. The same would be if you were pitching in LA or New York.The region of the studios and players are going to be more relatable to the industry they represent.

The second is that most session players outside of Nashville sound very good but are not as "song supportive" as the Nashville players are. You constantly get good tracks with great guitar or keyboard players, but that is what they sound like, really great guitar or keyboard players. Nothing wrong but sometimes there is more in what is NOT played than what is played. The players speak their own language and the energy and attitudes as well as the small nuances make a big difference when you are dealing in a business with thousands of songs and writers.

I don't know of any studios in Memphis at this point because a lot of the players that used to be in Memphis have come to Nashville. But I will see if I can find out for you. Memphis was a great recording center in the mid 50's but like Muscle Shoals, Seattle, Athens Ga. and other places, they have good runs but never seem to keep it going. Basically there are three music centers in the US, Nashville, LA and New York. For Country it is mostly Nashville although there is a pretty good selection in all three of a lot of different types of music.

But you should check around. Doing a "Google search" is usually the first step. Asking people here if they have any connection with Memphis. Usually they pop up. and I am NOT putting down the Memphis community. I love it, just really depends on what you want in your music and who you know.

The second part of your question gets a bit dicey and is the ten million dollar question. What do you do with them once you have recorded them?

If you read these threads or those of other web sites, getting songs heard is the hardest part of it now. We are at the convergence of several elements. Karaoke nights, which turned the world into singers, for good and bad, Home recording, computers and the Internet, then the onslaught of reality shows like American Idol, which put "everyone into the game."

The effect of that took a lot of money out of the industry from the publishers point of view. With less money being made there was a desire to "circle the wagons" somewhat, with artists taking over writing more and more of their own songs. So outside writers had less and less of a shot at anything.

Basically now it is a system of having to "write your way in
the back doors." You are always on the lookout for young artists in your area, who you might find your way into the beginning of their careers.The co-writing process is the way to do that. As you develop relationships along the way, you can often find your way into publishers, and others who are finding their way as well.

The use of My Space sites, Face Book, other web sites, as a result of "getting yourself out there is common. Attending local and regional songwriting workshops or events are another step along the way. Then going to the source is all part of it. Many people will set up meetings with PRO's (ASCAP, BMI, SESAC) and that does help in some instances, although they are primarily collection agencies, and while they do help with relationships, they really are not as instrumental as hooking writers up with publishers as they once did.

It is hard. I won't lie to you. It is why I say "write for yourself first and foremost." But do the best you can. When you step up your level you have to find consistant outlets for what you do.

On other threads I have told the story of two of my clients, Julie Moriva and Frankie Ballard. Frankie is a young guitar player monster, who signed last year with Warner Brothers and an artist. His single is out next month. The other, Julie is an ex-school teacher from Green Bay Wisconsin. She is the main writer behind Steel Magnolia, the fastest rising duo in country music. They are at number nine this week.

In both cases, it was a lot of work, working in both their own areas and regions, building relationships, writing a LOT of songs with a LOT of people, doing demos and in both cases, it paid off. Most of the time it doesn't.

So you have to be smart, take your time, and check each step. People like me are here to help you. It is a lot to take in but if you surround yourself with smart people who know what they are doing, you will have a much better ride.

Feel free to contact me at MBarne4908@aol.com with questions or comments.

MAB