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#804691 03/22/10 07:54 PM
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so do you guys think Justin Timberlake is as bad as Lady Gaga??

What about Brittany Spears does she have no talent??M.J. how about that guy grin pretty sure he uses these nontalented tools all the time

Last edited by Aaron Johnson; 03/22/10 08:19 PM.

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I suppose you can debate the merits of their musical talent all you want...but I love 'em all. I'll never understand why I cant love Waylon and Merle AND Justin and Brittany! It all sounds good to me.

Chad

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I am with you on that one Chad


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Originally Posted by Aaron Johnson
so do you guys think Justin Timberlake is as bad as Lady Gaga??

What about Brittany Spears does she have no talent??M.J. how about that guy grin pretty sure he uses these nontalented tools all the time


They are/were all over rated.....IMHO. No entertainer or sportsman deserves that kind of fame and adulation....
Michael Jackson made some great songs and was a major pop contributer but he is still over rated. The rest IMO are not worth talking about. They are just disposable product.

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That was to easy.. See what I mean about the new users coming in??

For the part of entertainer or sportsman part Im with you on that one. But it is the general pub. that made that happen.We pay.
you told me you were a pro. singer. IMHO you have lost all credibility they all can sing crazy good both in range and arrangement this might sound mean I am sorry but what have you done that comes close to what they have done musically speaking not fame or fortune speaking?? I listened to quite a bit of stuff now

Last edited by Aaron Johnson; 03/23/10 03:53 AM.

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Jim's a good singer, IMO, but the above mentioned happened to have "the whole package". Just because they aren't Yngvie Malmsteen or Mark Kaufman...doesn't make them completely useless! They have talent, and Joe Public made that clear. To get to that level of success, one has to be disciplined, reasonably sober and healthy, have a good clue about music, a degree of talent to pull it off, be very attractive, be responsible enough to show up at multiple appointments and performances every day, and have the personality to put up with the truck loads of BULLSHIT that comes along with it all and still survive and maintain their lives.

Forget the haters! These folks are laughing all the way to the bank!

Last edited by Polly Hager; 03/23/10 04:11 AM.

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HAHAHAH right Polly Love ya its awesome


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The thing you will see if you read a lot of the comments from people like me, is that the people you are talking about are very talented. What I don't like are the images some of them project and the way a lot of young people believe this is a good way to act/live. It is very easy to be a young man and see Brittany or Lady Gaga's videos and think "Man she's hot". It is another to be a father and think "Would I want my daughter to use her as a role model?". I don't think they lack talent, I think they use them in a way that doesn't please me, or a lot of parents.


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost forever.

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https://www.soundclick.com/artist/default.cfm?bandID=1468958 For Selleck/Kay co-writes
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If we all walked around naked from the begining do you think rape would still be in our minds? lol nevermind I know what your saying for sure John I do not want my daughter out there doin drugs.

Last edited by Aaron Johnson; 03/23/10 05:30 AM.

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Applauding those guys' (and gals') ability to make money does not mean I have to like their music. I admit to being old, and a tad set in my ways, and thoroughly ignorable, thank you. The thing I appreciate is good writing--in any genre, I think--and I find that here, not on the radio or in the record stores.

Joe

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Hate Pop ? How can any songwriter hate popular music ? It's been around since the mid 1890's, and has always been the basis of progressing music foward, so I think it's stood the test of time.

Maybe some hate "manufactured" pop, but buy it's definition, it has always been the sum of many parts.

MJ ? Sure, his solo career was manufactured too, by Quincy Jones..... I'd have Quincy on my team any day.

Hate Pop ? Naah, ya must be crazy..... crazy

cheers, niteshift

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**** I have to say I raise 3 grown Children
so i;m not that liberal.:)I don;t believe in
friends with benefits crap the young college
and high school students are prone to....***




I Think Justin Timberlake is one of the baddest Entertainers
that has hit the music scene in a long time..the dude paid
his dues,,He Got national Exposure at an very young age
with the group''N Sync''...He has proven time after time
that he can ''work some R@b..the dude has soul...and he is not
afraid of ''showing it he can dance his tail off....


And When I was growing up This type of talent
from a young white teenager/man was unheard..
of..''He has excellent vocal range....
;The Average White BAnd..WAS A Bad group
also''pick up the pieces..is stil playing in movies


I;m a product of the 1970;s
and 1960's..so I'm still
a hippie with very liberal
veiws...about love and
sexuality...so....
WE all should be comfortable
in our skins..period..:):)

''you are okay i;m okay...
I luv this paper back
of the 1970's
it changed the course'
of history about ''
certain taboo's
our society sometimes
'have..



Shirl;o





Last edited by Shirley E Matthews; 03/23/10 06:17 AM.
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I'm prolly even older than Jim & Joe...& can still remember when Pop's Grammy-Winning Duo, Milli Vanilli..hadda return their Grammy since THEY hadn't actually SUNG on their CDs, just lip-synched & danced their way to Stardom...

I kinda yearn for the days when a Star DIDN'T have to do any Dance Moves to sell a Pop Song to the kiddies..OR have an Interesting Video..JUST needed Great Music, Strong Vocals (which sounded HUMAN, at-least), and Something Catchy-Enough to make You, The Listener, wanna get up & Dance. (& kids actually BOUGHT the Music, too...) ;-)>

So far, I've been enjoying Mz GaGa's stuff...but wondering HOW can she keep "topping herself" without getting stale or tiresome.
CAN she Out-Madonna Madonna? We'll see!

Best Wishes/Big Hugs...from the Old Guy..heh!
Stan


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Originally Posted by Aaron Johnson
That was to easy.. See what I mean about the new users coming in??

For the part of entertainer or sportsman part Im with you on that one. But it is the general pub. that made that happen.We pay.
you told me you were a pro. singer. IMHO you have lost all credibility they all can sing crazy good both in range and arrangement this might sound mean I am sorry but what have you done that comes close to what they have done musically speaking not fame or fortune speaking?? I listened to quite a bit of stuff now


I will say what I have said dozens of times once more for your benefit so you can appreciate wher I am coming from.

We have been bombarded with so much mediocre crap that we have become conditioned to like it. That is by design. The people who run the music business are crooks who have little taste or interest in anything other than making money. They make the rules and say who and what makes it. They are scared of any competition and have even got governments to bring out legislation to protect their interests. The gullible public will follow whatever trend they put in front of us.
I have been in the business for over forty years and know this to be true.
Folk may disagree and that is their right. They either have little knowledge of the business or are scared to voice their opinion in case they rock the boat. However anyone who has a good knowledge of music and the business will know that what I am saying is true.
To answer your point about singing.....I know lots of people who can do what the poprats do and could do it better especially if they have the hype and backing. I doubt very much if the poprats can do what we do without any backing.
These stars you refer to are over hyped, over rated and overpaid.
I have nothing personal against them.....they are just disposable products of the system. They are laughing all the way to the bank. But usually the fame and problems associated with it is a big price to pay for being exploited. I know people who have been mega famous and would change it all tomorrow if they could get their life back.
There is better music out there than what is in the charts but the nepotistic suits are too scared to promote it as it could be a threat to their power and dominance. They do not want to rock the boat either.

Someone said that you are very green and that is apparent from your posts especially the one about opening a recording studio. Please do not show even more ignorance by attacking my singing or credibility. I respect your opinion as that of a green gullible 25 year old....I have T shirts and underpants older than you....maybe in ten or fifteen years time you will grow up and say yeah these pop stars sucked Big Jim was right.

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I dont think I can apperciate where you are coming from you are the anti progress. I think you still have it wrong big guy about the biz cuz what is the purpose of business?? TO MAKE MONEY!! if you dont see that as the big dirty then you should probably get out. Its still the public who decides silly man we still are the final say on what we buy just cuz you put something in front of someone doesn't mean they will like it and want to buy it. Seriously your getting worse. YOu think the public is gullible becuase they dont share your interests that is pretty apparent. Show me a male singer you know that could do better. I think the biggest range I have seen so far on here is one octave you think that is the new way to talent?? haha I understand that rocking the boat thing I am one of them. The "poprats" only have the hype and backing because of there skill they had before it silly man. its not like they pick JT outta a crowd and said hey I know your not a natural so I am going to put you in every vocal lesson I can find so I can waste all my time and money on you in a gamble that you will be good. thats not how it works unless your lady GAGA. and daddy owns half the world. EVERYONE IS A DISPOSABLE PRODUCT are you serious??. LOL I love how you put it like that your the guy who need to read directions on the toilet before using it? I am not rerally that green when it comes to music just the biz. I see most on here talking out the songs one syllable to one beat?? thats beginer at best. I think you might have missed that one post I put up before and I bet good money those connections would laugh at what your saying (lets go talk to Chet)? check out Emily Hughes my cuz.. my whole family has been in music I had a bass in my hands at 10. I have been in many recording studios and have written many songs. I know I have a better idea then you do sorry but your preaching your the big dark secret in the business shops you really have wasted your time. Sorry what might seem green is cuz I have never takin it seriously it just seemed like a thing to do with everyone around me always playing so I never cared about pursueing any of it. I knew you lied when you said you made money you should probably go buy more clothes. I will never respect a closed minded up tight untalented goof ball. sorry to burst that giant bubble around your head. I have learned nothing from you in all this time I have wasted.

Last edited by Aaron Johnson; 03/23/10 05:09 PM.

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So when you cannot win a debate you turn to insults...typical of a green kid who cannot see sense and listen to wisdom.....sorry kid...maybe one day you will grow up.
I have worked with some of the top names in the business....I do not make up stories or tell lies. I resent the fact that a snotty noze kid who does not know me could even say that. I have seen first hand how the biz works....I also know how the public perception works and you fall for it hook line and sinker. I was playing in stadiums to several thousand folk before you were born. I do not need to band names about....most of them are dead now anyway. My talent or lack of it does not enter into the debate cause I am not the one earning millions.
The reason you have learned nothing is cause you do not listen and thinking is alien to you. If you have never taken music seriously then why bother now....music is not a business it is a calling and if you have not been called by it by now you never will be. I followed my path because I wanted to. I could have been in a band who were and still are a household name but refused because I would not stoop to the level of the people behind them.
There is more to life than money......I unlike some others have morals.
You see the current crop of pop as progress...well I see it as a huge step backwards.
Kids nowadays have little respect, class or morals. That is pretty obvious from their crappy moronic music.

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Hey Night

Quincey is a champ thats for sure but it was all still overseen by Micheal if you check him out he's collab'd with so many people but he is still the man designer of what he became


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Ok...neutral corners, Gentlemen.

Look, whether you like the music or not, I still think you need to respect the talent(or at least the public appeal), because if it is SO easy to do this would be a forum full of multi-millionaires chatting about how to deal with all their success.

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Thanks Chad I see why there is public appeal....that is not in question. I just do not agree with the way the public are manipulated. People are too interested in money and not interested enough in music. When big money enter into the equation, fairness, equality and the desire for perfection goes out the window.

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I did WIN thanx JIM grin maybe I will send you my library so you can catch up

Last edited by Aaron Johnson; 03/23/10 06:13 PM.

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No You just showed that you have no respect and little knowledge.

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I respect where its deserved


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Originally Posted by Aaron Johnson
I am with you on that one Chad


I'm with Aaron, Bottom line - "Don't be a hater"
It gets you nowhere but miserable and lonely.



Thanks!
Peace Mike
Sub

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=482602

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Jeepers Aaron, it's not about winning or losing, its about an honest exchange of ideas and opinions....and its about respect even if you disagree.

I think Big Jim has some important points...like money rules the game and financiers do what they can to maximize their returns...and money controls the talent and decides what gets released, what gets heard...

After that, the market rules, the pockets vote, and the financiers lose lots of money on acts ... to make it back on a few blockbusters. Labels are like venture capitalists. The winners pay for the losers and the returns to shareholders.




If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

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Just for record Mike I am not a hater. I just do not like the way the MUSIC business is run...JMO

It produces more losers than winners and there should be enough to go round so that everyone who is talented and hardworking gets their fair share and is happy. I do I think get a fair share. I make a living. It is the people who do not that I feel sorry for.

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John it is nice AND REFRESHING that someone can disagree and argue their corner but at the same time see other peoples POV.
I see your POV and understand where you are coming from. I cannot change things but there is nothing wrong with trying or at least pointing out things that IMO need changing.
The root prob is that only a few really make it and the difference between them who do and them who do not is very very small. We all know very talented people who try their hardest, have the talent and everything else but will never make it. Rather than hail the heroes I prefer to root for the more deserving under dogs,

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We should differentiate between performers and artists, I think.

There are many performers I think are in a completely different business, but Timberlake actually writes songs (just like Lady Gaga).

I remember his 'Lovestoned' from a couple years ago. I really liked that one - killer guitar breakdown (which I think was sampled from some other group, though)!

The major artists and their labels are big politics, sure, but the few people I've met and been in touch with in the music industry, are really nice people.

Sure there are killers and villains in all walks of life, but I don't think music business is worse than others. In general capitalism has gone overboard with vulgar greed for the last 30 years, and it's certainly not over yet.

I think pop music as an artform mirrors those general cultural tendencies in our western world societies really well. That mirror image may be part of the dislike grin

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Hey Jim

Sorry I did get to excited and I am sorry that I didn't point out that I do see where your coming from, I should have made more references to that. All I am trying to get across really is that instead of looking at why the industry sucks how come we cant look at ways of making it better. Thats where I came in with the new forums and a new site to entice new users came in. Dosen't it sound that maybe if you had 1'000'000 people in your conner would be better then 50'000. We could make things change we need everyone who turns the wheel to know that. I also understand that most of everything is a lot of junk but maybe we can help them. Make them better instead of wiping them off the table. What I think we need are the Hero's teaching the Underdogs.


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Originally Posted by the songcabinet


I think pop music as an artform mirrors those general cultural tendencies in our western world societies really well. That mirror image may be part of the dislike grin


Thats awesome


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The probblem with youth to day is they forget that the reason you respect your elders is those elders have survived trials youth has yet to face.

The addage about "Respect is earned" .... age and wisdom are earned by living .... and if you can not respect that ... then there is little hope for a better future.

You don't need to like someones opinion to respect it....

Cheers

Noel
(who hopes to be on this eath at least as long as Big Jim already has)

Last edited by Noel Downs; 03/23/10 09:46 PM.



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Hey Noel

That makes a lot of sense really it does thats why I am trying to learn.

So if you were a dog would you respect the master that hit you all the time? I return disrespect myself

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The really funny thing is, my comment was not about nakedness. People can be naked and not openly flaunting sexuality to sell anything. If nakedness was all it took anyone with any kind of body could sell any song. Susan Boyle could wear the same outfit as Lady Gaga and sell just as many records. For the record, I have nothing aginst nakednes, or sexuality. I just think the way they are selling songs, and a lot of other things, leaves a lot to be desired. I was part of the generation that started all this in the 60's. I was the first person in my high school to be suspended for having his hair too long, 1964. I lived in, and around Los Angeles from late 1968-1973. I had hair down to my belt, and went to hear all the big acid rock, folk, and blues bands that are still legends today. I still enjoy any music made that is not about hate, or is vulgar just to be vulgar. I won't buy any product from anyone who presents an image I don't like. This is my way of disapproval. Does it matter to their sales, not a whit, but it matters to the person I see in the mirror. I still believe that curiosity is mans greatest asset learning is his greatest capacity, and youth its true future. I hate to see some of the images I see shaping that future. Again, I don't think some of these people don't have great talent, I just hate seeing how they package and sell it.


Have a goodun,

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Aaron apology accepted......I do not bear grudges or take things personally or mean things personally. I generalise sometimes and folk sometimes take it literally. Rather than just agree and say yeah that is correct most of the time they point out the exception. Re pop music....I like a lot of it.....I have kids your age and older and they play it.....they have a good general grounding in music and like myself they like something for the right reasons IE it moves them......rather than it is hip or the in thing. Back in the early nineties I made rave mixes for my son and his pals...They loved them and thought I was as good as the DJs they followed. Gaga is OK but I am not keen on her weirdness and crudeness...I am no prude but it is hardly an example to set for young kids who may think she is a role model. Just to set the record straight.....I have worked with some great rock stars including Rory Gallagher (best live rock guitarist bar none) Maggie Bell and Alex Harvey. I used to jam with the Nazareth guys every Thursady but have not been for a few years. Too busy. I sing full time both with a band mostly covers (not as much as I used to) and have my own one man show where I sing like Cocker, Meatloaf, Rod Stewart, Neil Diamond and many others...it keeps me busy and pays the bills. I am no stranger to studios I have my own home studio with pretty good gear both in hardware and software and my pal has his own pro studio.
I would be genuinely interested in what you do. what your ambitions are and what you aspire to be.

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Originally Posted by Noel Downs
The probblem with youth to day is they forget that the reason you respect your elders.......

Noel
(who hopes to be on this eath at least as long as Big Jim already has)


Noel you are a cheeky sod but I love you.....

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Hey guys,

just adding my 2 cents here.
Speaking of Lady Gaga (or anybody else, for that matter) flashing her boobs (or more, I personally don't care): let's say that boys and men like it because they're sexually aroused - an oversimplistic view imo, but let's say it nonetheless - what about the heterosexual girls and women who love Lady Gaga? They must be fans for another reason, mustn't they?

I'll try this: it's not because morals have fallen in our permissive societies that teenagers - and lots of adults - feel comfortable about their bodies. We always admire someone who's able to do what we wouldn't dare to do. What if Lady Gaga's theatricals were neither vulgar nor pornographic in essence, but the 'artistic' - don't laugh - expression of human confidence in oneself, souls AND body? Wouldn't a shy teenage girl like to be able to expose her body as confidently as the Lady? Not to behave like a whore, just to love herself a little bit more? Didn't Madonna do just that 30 years ago? Young girls wanted to be just half as bold and empowered in their lives as she was on stage. And I'm not talking about sex here.
So, what does Lady Gaga may be less vulgar than we could think on first thought. Just thinking out loud.

PS: speaking of respect; I'm more of a pop addict than Big Jim, and what he calls crap often goes in my ears and brain. I don't mean to change that. But even when he calls people such as myself gullible and manipulated, even when he writes we fail to open our ears and think about who or what leads our tastes and steals what's in our pockets, I NEVER EVER felt insulted or disrespected. I disagree with some of his POV but I respect HIM all the way. There are people who love humans and those who love themselves (plus maybe 1 or 2 members of their clan). Jim always speaks his mind - as we all should do - with love and respect for people, and especially songwriters and artists. I'd rather disagree with him a hundred times than have to agree with someone who is a 'hater'. And there's no need to insult someone who only wants us to listen to 'better' music, LOL.

Have a great day,
Yann


"Honey, I know, I know, I know times are changin' / It's time we all reach out 4 something new" (Prince)

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Just to make things clear:

re-reading my post, I can see there are words that can be misinterpreted.
I aimed at no one in particular when writing. I just wanted to express my feeling that Big Jim was NOT a hater of any kind. That doesn't mean we have to look elsewhere to find one.



"Honey, I know, I know, I know times are changin' / It's time we all reach out 4 something new" (Prince)

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So many interesting perspectives here! smile I'm so glad to see the boys playing nicely.

Magne, your post seemed to put down performers (unless I took it wrong). Sometimes people can write brilliantly, but can't perform the song...so...how are they going to get it out there without a decent performer? Marc Barnette said something to me once that really made ME feel better; he said, "You DON'T HAVE TO WRITE! You're a PERFORMER! People need that. Let people write FOR YOU!" Good writers and good performers are a perfect musicial marriage. Why does one person have to be able to do everything in order to gain respect in the entertainment industry?

Stan, I too, remember the days when the song sold itself...no dancing, no choreography...just a song on an album that kicked ass! MTV changed that forever.

Mike Caro...I agree, NO HATERS! Art is art. You can put a Picasso up next to a Rembrandt, and you'll have two schools of thought on which is art and which is crap, but in the end, art is in the eye of the beholder, just like good music is in the eye of the beholder. Anyone who puts Micheal Jackson down, must be terribly uninformed about him. He was a musicial genius, and an utter perfectionist. I remember the day that he died, one of his former recording engineers posted on here about working with him. Justin Timberlake, from all I've read, is exactly the same way, and is also instrumental in discovering new talent and bringing those people out into the spotlight. Brittany Spears...you can love her or hate her, but she worked like a dog to get where she is, and unfortunately the Paporazzi has pretty much made her life a living Hell.

Big Jim said that there are scores of people who deserve to make it and didn't (MARK KAUFMAN!) but that's because life's not fair, and not everyone CAN make it! Just like not everyone can win the lottery...we'd all be $2 winners. The music business isn't any more or less corrupt than any other business. You either play the game, play to win, and outdo the other guy, or you don't have a chance.

Mike Dunbar tries to reiterrate this all the time: BUILD YOUR FAN BASE! Record companies can't ignore a big fan base. DO THE WORK! If you have to lose weight and get plastic surgery so you're camera friendly, then do it! If you have to get better at playing and singing, then do it! If you have to network with others to get a leg up, then do it! If there's anyone out there that made it whom you don't consider worthy...guess why? Because they networked, greased palms, patted backs, practiced their craft relentlessly, did whatever they were told to do to be successful. They didn't sit around and whine about how unfair it was, they just said, "Okay, this is the hand I'm dealt, this is the game I'm playing...I'm going to go full force at this until I make it!"

There's a favorite saying I read once, and never forgot:

"Whatever you vividly imagine
Ardently desire
Inherently believe
And enthusiastically act upon
MUST INEVITABLY come to pass." - author unknown.


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Originally Posted by Polly Hager
Jim's a good singer, IMO, but the above mentioned happened to have "the whole package". Just because they aren't Yngvie Malmsteen or Mark Kaufman...doesn't make them completely useless!

Forget the haters! These folks are laughing all the way to the bank!


Polly,

Yngvie Malmsteen or Mark Kaufman? smile I don't get this connection at all lol



Thanks!
Peace Mike
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Originally Posted by Mike Caro Substudio

Yngvie Malmsteen or Mark Kaufman? smile I don't get this connection at all lol


Yeah, who's this Malmsteen character? wink


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Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
Just for record Mike I am not a hater. I just do not like the way the MUSIC business is run...JMO


Actually I don't think your a hater Jim but you are definitely a downer. You down someone on almost every single thread. You almost never talk about the actual people that you do like.
It's like 90/20 Downing... smile It's old already. Your criticisms are not constructive, It's the same point over & over.. What's the solution? Maybe "beat some sense into the children of the world,till they like better music,or the same music you or we like" smile
Yes we should take arms, build armies to fight against mediocrity... smile

What is all this talking and downing going to accomplish? Zero!
You wanna do something about it what else but to GET IN IT and do something about it.

And yes I hear songs that are shockingly bad, every single day. It's almost like someones' playing a bad joke on us. I keep thinking there like novelty commercials and then find out there songs smile

I told ya before "popular music" it's just NOT our world anymore.







Thanks!
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Originally Posted by Aaron Johnson
so do you guys think Justin Timberlake is as bad as Lady Gaga??


Aaron, on your original question in my professional judgement Gaga is superior. You can tell that in two seconds when you see them perform live. As soon as she sits at the piano she's musically much deeper and diverse than Justin Timberlake. She's a superior songwriter than he is as well.

Justin is a straight up dance & song guy, an entertainer. He's a talented guy but he is NO where near Michael Jackson even though he tries to emmulate him. But that's okay Who is? Nobody!
He's not a musically challenging growing artist like say a Rod Stewart. Or anywhere near a songwriter that other artist are begging for him to write songs for them. Or lets remake or cover all his hits kinda thing.

Justin & Britany are DIRECT products of "The Micky Mouse Club" They have been in show business there whole lives.
That is a hard path to stay on, I mean look what it did to Michael. I give them lots of credit for many many things, like going to dance classes every day when there friends were going to the mall or movies. Taking acting lessons, and vocie and stage instructions. Getting on planes and performing all over the world, being told things like....

"Hey what's that a pimple on your face, no good. You got two TV spots this week and 3 magazines.

"Oh don't hang around with that girl so much, I know you like her but you have to appear to be AVAILABLE to all your girl fans. so...

"get up, it's time to dance for four hours, hey you don't see Janet Jackson taking a break< you wanna be like Madonna you got work harder girl"

And this is just a slice of the cake... It's the entertainment business, they don't really care that Justin plays two chords on the piano for an entire song every song and has 10 minute no thought lyrics, like "Rock Your Body" smile

I don't know was Donnie Osmond really any better?

The BIG key to all this pop chatter is very simple. What hurts the industry and the writers and the artists etc.. Is the absence of promoting "the other stuff" They still have the Donnie Osmonds nothing has changed there, they just took away all the great stuff, the more musically rewarding things. The record industry does NOT promote it.

When I was a child I knew of and heard Miles Davis, a child today would NEVER know or hear a Mile Davis.. This is just a plain fact, that is the ONLY complaint worth talking about. smile


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Aaron

You posted a link for Jojo Mayer on the Drum/Bass Forum

This is EXACTLY the point I'm making.... This guy and his band could or would be ON THE RADIO "MAIN CHART" and ON TV if it were the 1970's
And would still be pretty marketable in the part of the 80's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3m9V8qPXhQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MtKvVm-dJY

The general public and people in general have no interest in this kind of immense talent and skill. At one time they did, when they were EXPOSED to it. That is what Jim & I agree on and always reiterate.

They like the other kinds of talents and entertainment factors.
And once that ball is rolling it doesn't stop.

I'm not saying I want the radio or TV dominated by this music or any for that matter like it's dominated by Hip Hop. But a little dose of this and that would be very refreshing and rewarding. Might even make a kid wanna sit down and practice some:)

It's hard to get what they don't even know about...

PS- Heard 3 Eagles songs in a row today, boy were they fantastic!


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Hey, Polly, John, Joe, Night, Shirley, Stan, John, Song, Noel, Yann
thanx for all your time and feedback for sure the main reason I started this thread is to show why we need to change this online thing but it has taken many turns.

Hey Jim thanks man I would shake your hand. Maybe I will come to you for your knowledge when I get there if thats cool.

Hey Mike You have got some awesome words of wisdom here to that I know I could learn from to hope thats cool. hahaa


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Originally Posted by Aaron Johnson
Hey, Polly, John, Joe, Night, Shirley, Stan, John, Song, Noel, Yann
thanx for all your time and feedback for sure the main reason I started this thread is to show why we need to change this online thing but it has taken many turns.

Hey Jim thanks man I would shake your hand. Maybe I will come to you for your knowledge when I get there if thats cool.

Hey Mike You have got some awesome words of wisdom here to that I know I could learn from to hope thats cool. hahaa


Cool Aaron

Hey bro do it all if you can, be a smoking player and make whatever musi you want, then get called to go TOUR or record with Gaga or Justin Timberlake.. make some NICE money, then go back home and do whatever the hell you want musically. AND you would now have contacts to other gigs and potential song cuts if you are a writer....

ALL that can happen if you are a lover of music... and VERY lucky smile


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Originally Posted by Mike Caro Substudio
Justin & Britany are DIRECT products of "The Micky Mouse Club" They have been in show business there whole lives.


That expression cracked me up! I'm going to remember that for a long time.. it's GANGSTA :-)

Originally Posted by Mike Caro Substudio
The BIG key to all this pop chatter is very simple. What hurts the industry and the writers and the artists etc.. Is the absence of promoting "the other stuff" They still have the Donnie Osmonds nothing has changed there, they just took away all the great stuff, the more musically rewarding things. The record industry does NOT promote it.


I could't agree more! Seems like somewhere in the 90'ies every artist we knew and loved, dissapeared from public exposure, due to increased controlled playlists and what have you.. that 'development' was very sad.. I understand the moneymaking perspective, and I understand the limits in bandwidth, buuut.. that didn't excactly increase the goodwill of the music industry, so to speak.

Originally Posted by Mike Caro Substudio
When I was a child I knew of and heard Miles Davis, a child today would NEVER know or hear a Mile Davis.. This is just a plain fact, that is the ONLY complaint worth talking about. smile


Iii don't know... There are brilliant studio musicians today, who might not want the hassle of the big time, staying content with operating in the shadows. You really have to have a high tolerance for bullshit, if you want to make the big time, it seems (I think Gaga is actually making fun of that with her prescence, making that a part of the artistic expression - an ironic cultural critique. Yes, I think she's quite clever IMO). Maybe that's partly why the industry now rely more on naïve contenders in a tv show. But also, Miles were coming out of the 40'ies where he was a pop hero (jazz were pop(ular) music in the 40'ies), and used that to create new stuff (I'm especially thinking of 'Kind of Blue' - my alltime favourite). I think some bands in rock are attempting the same these days, but you're right, in general it's more of the same (sounds old? fix it with MORE distortion and darker harmony (beneath those commercial pop melodies)!!!.

Originally Posted by Polly Hager
Magne, your post seemed to put down performers (unless I took it wrong). Sometimes people can write brilliantly, but can't perform the song...so...how are they going to get it out there without a decent performer? Marc Barnette said something to me once that really made ME feel better; he said, "You DON'T HAVE TO WRITE! You're a PERFORMER! People need that. Let people write FOR YOU!" Good writers and good performers are a perfect musicial marriage. Why does one person have to be able to do everything in order to gain respect in the entertainment industry?


Polly, it was not my intention to put down performers per se, just to make room for it. Like Mike implies, the performers are dominating the picture these days ("the other stuff are not being promoted"), and I think thats bad too. I'd like a more balanced picture. Performers are high regarded in our western societies, and some are very good, in fact they all are, but some are also very hollow characters (pop music is a sad exposure of some of those). The general listener can't differentiate between a performer and an artist, and that's a little sad, I think. Im not judging, instead I believe we need that distiction in order to appreciate the craft of music. Because performers have a way of gliding off of cultural and criticisms of art, due to the fact that they are not responsible for what's written. Because performers largely outnumbers artists today (due to the fact that performers are largely the ones being promoted), they end up controlling major decisions about what kinds of music and art we are being exposed to. And that risks being a little tame, because performers by large doesn't take 'risky songs'. I think we have some clutter here that's not working for anybody else than the big players in music business.

On a more personal level, I totally agree that a writer coupled with a performer can be a marriage made in heaven. There ARE just as many many wonderful performers that I love, and regard highly for their art. My point is just that we need to know what each of these crafts can do and can't, and not mix them together, like in the public eye, in order to appreciate and develop music that continues to be powerful and relevant for the audiences.

There's also a saying "Be careful what you are wish for" which I think holds high credibility in the music business..

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Originally Posted by the songcabinet
Originally Posted by Mike Caro Substudio
Justin & Britany are DIRECT products of "The Micky Mouse Club" They have been in show business there whole lives.


That expression cracked me up! I'm going to remember that for a long time.. it's GANGSTA :-)


Magne,

I don't mean to speak for Sub, but there was a TV program called "The Mickey Mouse Club" and Justin and Britney were part of the cast when they were children.


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I didn't know that, Kevin. It just sounded like great New York'ian to me laugh

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Mike as far as being a downer yeah you are probably correct. When I think it is crap I say so. I speak my mind. Why do I say so many things are crap?...probably because there is SO much of it around and I speak my mind. It is IMO better to be HONEST than a kidder....like someone who kids themselves that it is not crap when it clearly is or for whatever reason lies by saying it is good when they know it is crap. That IMO is not being positive that is living a lie. If something is good I will say so...give me a break. There is tons of great music out there and tons of great performers...it is just a pity not much of it comes to the attention of the public.
Whilst we all should be positive there is a difference between reality and dreams. Statisticslly there is less chance of making it into the big time as winning the lottery but we should still buy tickets.
It has to be said that there is a BIG difference here in the UK than the biz in the USA. Here most writers are performers they are more interested in selling themselves than selling songs.
Whereas across the pond people are more into writing songs for others to perform. A lot do not even perform. It took me ages to get my head round that one. How can you write songs but not want to perform them?
Most live music performed here is covers....Few can get away with playing originals. Even most of the Brit popstars or poprats as I like to call them have hits with cover versions of old standards. They are manufactured clone after clone and have their one or two hits. The Simon Cowell monopoly operation controls the charts. Apart from the odd folk or jazz club there is little demand for acoustic music. Country is not very popular. So to follow the business saying "supply on demand" there is little demand for original songs and acoustic type country songs are virtually non starters.
We should all do our best and make the best music we can...but to copy crap and try to get into the business that way IMO is wrong and perpetuates mediocrity.
I will encourage anyone and everyone as most here will confirm. I will offer help and advice any way I can. I am positive but have no illusions about the business. With age and experience comes being cynical and skeptical. That is healthy and goes with the territory.

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I think calling Big Jim a "downer" might be a little unfair. I have had more heated arguments about crap vs. non-crap with Big Jim than anyone else probably, but I don't think of him as a downer -- just wrong (ha, ha).

Aaron came here looking for a fight on this thread and Big Jim just obliged him. Some stars are "manufactured" -- but they still have to have "something" that the general population wants. There are probably 100's (or more) "manufactured stars" that never go any where for every one that does something. Justin, Brittany, Miley, Demi Levato, Menudo, In-Synch, Backstreet Boys, The spice girls, the archies, Carrie Underwood, ... all fall into that "manufactured" category. But they had the talent to stick around.

Taylor Swift manufactured her own way through MySpace, writing and "buzz" until the big powers had to finally embrace her.

Kevin


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Most people today would probably label you as a downer, Jim. But knowing you are a Scot, sort of evens it out (no offence intended) grin

I'd just like to comment on a few things, now that you DID write them in a public forum..

Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
like someone who... for whatever reason lies by saying it is good when they know it is crap. That IMO is not being positive that is living a lie.


People have other purposes of communicating, than to judge everyone and everything around them!

I think that kind of honesty can hurt you, if you do it in a public forum. The music business is so small world wide, that if you keep it up, you'll sooner or later stand face to face or have to deal with a person you bashed years ago. The Internet remembers all they crap you've ever written. It's like a personal history, and people does google you.

I think the real lie is the urge to judge everything. Why not let it be what it is, and if people have success with it, godspeed! When Im in the room with people, and there's no big brother watching, I'll say my opinion. But on the Internet, it's free of charge and confrontation to speak your mind, but you might end up paying later, for your momentary indulgances.

I'm not saying there's no right or wrong, but I'm saying there are things that'll work for you and against you. For a person wanting to work in the music business, it's not clever to bash people in a public forum. It's free in our own, unfixed time.

Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
Most live music performed here is covers....


Yes, it's the same here and this is what I really don't like about European music consumption. No wonder all the good stuff is coming from elsewhere! People don't write, and if they do, they won't be rewarded with gig's. That's AWFUL! The singer/songwriter scenes are thriving in Scandinavia, though. Sweden have a political party which public agenda is to support piracy!! PIRACY!!! They even get more than 5% of the votes, and you say the Americans are crazy???

If you say the other stuff is living on a lie, why is making a living playing covers, not? That logic eludes me..

Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
With age and experience comes being cynical and skeptical. That is healthy and goes with the territory.


Well I've studied what we call "experience" for years, and I'll tell you it's one of the most overrated qualities, ever. The bad effects of experience by far outwheighs the good IMHO So I'd wish I could get rid of mine. Experience is a killer in the wrong hands.. love

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