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#793841 - 02/07/10 10:25 AM TEARING TAYLOR DOWN  
Joined: Aug 2009
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Sausagelink Offline
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http://blogs.tennessean.com/tunein/2010/02/05/commentary-taylor-swifts-week-of-swift-backlash/

I read this after reading another headline about Swift's performance at the Grammy Awards. I didn't see it live because I don't care about the grammies. I think they diss country music overall or they did in the old days and I hold grudges.

Even though I didn't watch the show I did see the performance after reading the first article this morning. I never been a big Stevie Nicks fan so I wasn't excited about the duo performance. I never have thought Taylor was a "powerhouse" type vocalist like, say, Carrie Underwood. I do like some of her songs though.

I liked the position taken in this blog I've linked to. I think Taylor has worked hard and deserves the success she's found. Granted, there are others who worked just as hard and didn't find the success but THAT'S SHOW BUSINESS. There is no rhyme or reason governing who makes it and who doesn't in SHOW BUSINESS.

GO TAYLOR!


#793843 - 02/07/10 10:50 AM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Sausagelink]  
Joined: Feb 2005
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Dave Rice (D) Offline
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Dave Rice (D)  Offline
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We share opinions about the grammies. Sadly, it is so very easy to be negative about anything or anyone... and Taylor has learned another one of life's bitter lessons. I hope she will take this knowledge to heart and that her management team will provide guidance to better venues and audiences in the future.

She is a talented young lady and has a bright future despite this "setback." (Maybe we should call it a "setup.")

Thanks for sharing the article from the Tennessean.

#793852 - 02/07/10 12:02 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Dave Rice (D)]  
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"Tampa Stan" Good (D) Offline
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"Tampa Stan" Good (D)  Offline
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Just for fun this AM, I googled both Taylor Swift's website AND Faith Hill's.

Swift's Official Website arrived just UNDER a Review she got from her first Gig in an Australian Tour she's just embarked-on..so..I read it:

She sang to a sellout crowd in Brisbane..The Reviewer LOVED It..backpatted her for several "stripped-down" ballads (Mostly Her & Her Guitar) & admitted that perhaps she had a rough patch vocally here-&-there, but overall raved at her show overall, even complimenting her on being "the Anti-Britney". Swift, for her part, complimented the screaming crowd FOR their screams/seemed to gain HER enthusiasm as the event went on, too.

She's got Newcastle, Melbourne and Adelaide "Sold Out" too...as the tour progresses this coming week.

Visit her Website & ya get offered "The Grammy Celebration Special", $31.13: "Fearless Platinum CD, Bracelet, Lanyard Keychain. & 5 8X10 Photos...(& SAVE $23.57)" too... March 4th, she'll play my town, Tampa, where "Cheap Tickets" at The Ticket Liquidator run ya $78-97 each..(& it's a BIG Venue/Should be a BIG Night.)

Soooo....I'd say The Little Lady is already well-putting a Bad Night nicely behind her..WITH a substantial Fan Base to carry her career ever-forwards, who still LIKE what they see & hear.

Now, I searched Faith Hill's site because she's IMO the "Pattern" that Taylor's been following. 1998-2003 Faith Hill's "This Kiss" went to #7 on the Pop Charts AFTER it'd been #1 on the Country stats. (Still bills herself as "The Top-Selling Digital Artist in History" I'll add.) & Hill's "Soul2Soul" tour with hubbby Tim McGraw I think is STILL the top-selling Tour Ever...topping even Rolling Stones & Madonna's!

Hill's reportedly coming out with an Album in 2010. It's gonna be Very Interesting to see if Taylor or Faith has the highest sales this year, as the 2 "Crossover Divas" hit the Charts.

Stay-Tuned...& I think all those articles/gossips about Taylor Swift's "Demise" are total hooey/got no doubt she'll be working pretty HARD at it in 2010...& hey, if she snags her a beau with Tim McGraw's "Pull"...it's going to be an Incredible Year..(or more)..for the gal. Sounded like she was workin' on THAT too, last gossip I just read....

Best Wishes, Big Guys-Hug,
Stan

#793905 - 02/07/10 01:51 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: ]  
Joined: Jan 2010
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blumuze Offline
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Maybe the girl has a voice, and maybe she doesn't. It might've been a bad monitor mix; if you can't hear yourself, you're GONNA sing off pitch. The proof will be in reports of other live performances.

Unfortunately, careers have been both made and broken on the strength of Grammy performances. I hope she fares better than others who have had poor showings on that show.

Last edited by blumuze; 02/07/10 01:53 PM.
#793911 - 02/07/10 02:26 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: blumuze]  
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Joe Wrabek (D) Offline
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So the lesson, if I understand this right, is if you're asked to be on the Grammies, refuse because they can't stop screwing up people, and tell 'em to go destroy someone else? If I ever have the opportunity (and I am not holding my breath), I'll do dat.

joe

#793929 - 02/07/10 03:14 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Joe Wrabek (D)]  
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Bill Robinson Offline
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i think people need to understand it ain't about beautiful singing voices.
It's about the business. It's about fans.
People love this kid.
Get over it.

Last edited by Bill Robinson; 02/07/10 06:32 PM.

Bill
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#793955 - 02/07/10 04:15 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Bill Robinson]  
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I like a lot of Taylor's songs and wish her nothing but the best in all her endeavors! Who cares what her detractors have to say or what their reasons are for doing so? U go girl! smile

-Dave


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#793957 - 02/07/10 04:23 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Drifter]  
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ben willis Offline
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The media loves to destroy people. They did it to Tiger Woods, though I think he'll come back.

Underdogs are the darlings of the media. They build them up, but if they get too big it's time to take them down a few notches. Time to hold the critics and reporters accountable. See how they like it.

#793958 - 02/07/10 04:24 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Drifter]  
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Kevin Emmrich Online content
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That was a pretty well written blog, I enjoyed reading it. It made a lot of sense to me. Of course, I think Taylor is pretty talented and I have seen videos of her when she was younger just singing with her guitar on a bus -- she did just fine. I have never considered her a top "vocalist" -- and maybe it is best that way. She has to work harder to have the songs she writes be the best they can be. She really can't fall back on vocal gymnastics like other singers can.

Kevin


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#793959 - 02/07/10 04:28 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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Mark Kaufman Offline
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Wish I was being torn down by the media.

#793961 - 02/07/10 04:36 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Dave Rice (D) Offline
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Dave Rice (D)  Offline
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Mark:

Indeed, that would be a very nice problem to have at our level... LOL!

#794000 - 02/07/10 06:40 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Bill Robinson]  
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Mike Caro Substudio Offline
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Originally Posted by Bill Robinson
i think people need ti understand it ain't about beautiful singing voices.
It's about the business. It's about fans.
People love this kid.
Get over it.


Bill

That's kinda the problem isn't it?
Imagine thinking, Payton Manning it ain't about what you do with the football this Superbowl it's about... smile

This generation knows something isn't right otherwise there would be no back lash at all. This is mostly due to American Idol even though that machine feeds us whatever musically they want to and we swallow it, it still shows the general public the troubles that singers may have. If fans watch the auditions and show they see the judges pointing out pitch problems, timing issues, dynamics or other nuances.

Otherwise how would little 12 year old Suzie know what pitch problems were about? Or even 17 year olds or older.

Hey Everybody slips and falls even gymnasts who train there whole lives...

I like Taylor but do not buy her music, I work with a kid who idolizes her and is well on her way to being being a somebody in this business. And besides bashing Taylor isn't going to make me any better or get me any further.

Our kid here sings, and writes not only well but commercially.
She studies guitar, she takes voice, she was accepted into Laguardia (Fame's Performing Art School) She records regular in the studio and co-produces the material, she performs & gigs regularly. All this and she just turned 14

We teach her constantly and she teaches us. In the studio she is nailing vocal takes in one take, we NEVER use auto-tune haven't even showed her what it is smile

We speak highly of Taylor in front of her, we also encourage her to respect everybody and never diss other singers,writers and musicians. If you have an opinion about something be professional and curtious about it,you don't have to love everything but should be aware of all you can. Know what somethings about first.

We also show her somebody new each session, we put on great singers and writers from the past to help her grow musically and look past what is only on the radio now. She truly loves music so she is very open minded with it. Many truly love "There kind of music" big difference.

Bottom line professionally....
PS- If you want to receive THEE award for BEST VOCALIST OF THE YEAR than you should be..... NO excuses.

The whole camp should have thought about this before filling there pockets beyond belief. But that's bad business, why wait,
She's young beautiful and talented enough for now. She is now pooping up in movies, you want more fame then be ready for the downsides of it..

That said we don NOT need to crucify her, but we don't have to feel so sorry and make excuses either, she's RICH and SET and will get royalties for the rest of her life even if she quit tomorrow.
Lets find someone else to feel sorry for lol

The MEDIA knows it MAKES you today, and it knows it can break you. Sometimes it doesn't matter once your famous you can survive somehow.

Bottom line Taylor can write hit songs for this market right now.
She has the knack like it or not. As writers we should respect that especially since she is actually writing "melodies" and thinking about lyrics that just don't talk about SEX non stop.
Also most of her music involves real players and more people overall.


Often the biggest difference between the nobody & the everybody is the EXPOSURE.


Exposure good or bad!




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#794006 - 02/07/10 06:56 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Mike Caro Substudio]  
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Rick Heenan Offline
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I think she's a breath of fresh air in grannies corset drawer.

#794007 - 02/07/10 06:59 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Mike Caro Substudio]  
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Kolstad Offline
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I believe the media and the critics are missing the point. Today music is portrayed like it's one big competition, with a total lack of perspective!??

Back in the day Bing Crosby was the hippest cat 'round the 78' & 45', and he always stated himself that he didn't think he had the greatest voice, but just sang in a voice the common man could sing along with and hum along to without too much effort.

That's what Bing believed was the foundation of his success, and I think of Taylor Swift much in the same way. She might evolve into a great great singer, but for now she sings in a voice her audience can relate to.

Taylor Swift is not above, but right there with the teens and her audience, and that makes her trustworthy as an artist, songwriter and performer. People want to put their trust in real people!

That's what the fuss is about.. a human being, being human, showing others the human side of human. There seem to be a big demand for that these days cry


#794014 - 02/07/10 07:12 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Kolstad]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Marc Barnette  Offline
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Hey guys,

I think you are all pretty much on the right pages here. I really wish there wasn't such this drive to tear someone down if they make a misstep. Hey, I listened back to a bunch of crap I did at 17-23 and I SUCKED plenty! There were a LOT of times I was out of tune, off pitch, and I am a pretty decent singer.

Now we have Kelly Clarkson piling on and here we go again, Travis Tritt vs. Billy Ray Cirus, Toby Keith vs. Dixie Chicks, man, we all live in a business that is SO HARD to do ANYTHING IN it is like watching us eat our young.

My comments on all of this are a little different focus. Like Taylor or HATE Taylor, Like Zac Brown or HATE them, Like Kings of Leon or HATE them, it brings a wave of interest. It brings more people interested in country music that weren't that before. That gets more people interested hopefully in writing their own songs. Recording in studios. Hiring musicians.

Some of us might find our way with songs or personal journeys that find a door opened a little bit more because someone made some money on the "Taylor Wave."

It happened in the 90's with Garth. Many said he was a "no talent Hack" too. They said he couldn't sing, wasn't country, all of that crap. They told Elvis to "Keep driving a truck." They told the Beatles they sucked too.

Whatever she does or whatever comes out of any of this, I will appreciate it as a more positive effect on music than that "Bleep off," of the half of the Rap, hip hop business.

I don't hate Taylor. She writes well for what she is. And writes a lot better than many of us. For now, she is making a difference. I just can't see the sense in denigrating something for the sake of a few bad notes.

If I had been singing with Ray Charles at the age of 19 or 20, I can guarantee you I WOULD HAVE HIT A FEW CLUNKERS TOO.

MAB

#794027 - 02/07/10 07:59 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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couchgrouch Online content
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when she performed live for such a large audience, she showed what she could do. I saw a YouTube clip of her singing just guitar/vocal and that was no different. I'm surprised people were surprised.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 02/07/10 08:00 PM.

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#794031 - 02/07/10 08:19 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Hummingbird Offline
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Why isn't anyone asking, how come the sound engineer for the Grammies can't do a better job?

I remember seeing Carrie Underwood sing at the Country Music Awards 3 or 4 years ago, and she was terribly off key. I assumed it was a sound issue, or maybe she was sick.

I wasn't impressed with Taylor's singing at the Grammies... could be her monitor wasn't working, and what do you do when you get on stage in front of a live audience and tv cameras, and realize something isn't working? You do your best to see it through.

I feel one of the issues is the technology that puts the monitor in your ear. If they had stage monitors, these things wouldn't happen so much.

IF this is how she normally sings, then we are hearing the results of vocal processing. Patsy Cline (and many others) never had vocal processing or pitch correction. Singers were expected to be able to sing as well live as in the studio.



Vikki Flawith: Songwriter/Composer, Singer/Voice Teacher

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#794033 - 02/07/10 08:36 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Sausagelink Offline
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Originally Posted by Hummingbird
Patsy Cline (and many others) never had vocal processing or pitch correction. Singers were expected to be able to sing as well live as in the studio.


With all due respect, Taylor has sold more than Patsy Cline.


Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Like Taylor or HATE Taylor, Like Zac Brown or HATE them, Like Kings of Leon or HATE them, it brings a wave of interest.


C'mon Mark, do we have to like Kings of Leon if we agree to like the others?

#794038 - 02/07/10 09:11 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Sausagelink]  
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ben willis Offline
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Never heard of Kings Of Leon, but I've heard of Taylor Swift.

Sausagelink, have you checked Patsy Cline's juke box sales lately? "Crazy" is constantly playing in any city, in any bar room, in any country, 24 hours a day.

#794040 - 02/07/10 09:47 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: ben willis]  
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Sausagelink Offline
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Originally Posted by ben willis
Sausagelink, have you checked Patsy Cline's juke box sales lately? "Crazy" is constantly playing in any city, in any bar room, in any country, 24 hours a day.


Patsy did some great stuff to be sure. She might have sold more. I had a stupid moment. I thought Swift had sold 15 million but I was thinking of the song 15. Even in the old days though, it was hard for a country act to sell a mil.

#794041 - 02/07/10 09:48 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Sausagelink]  
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Sausagelink Offline
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I really had a stupid moment! I checked the RIAA site and Patsy has sold a bunch. I'm surprised. I apologize.

#794088 - 02/08/10 02:42 AM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Sausagelink]  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
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I think it's money that gets Peyton Manning on all those commercials. And all those MVP picks and only won one Superbowl? It's fixed. Why isn't Farve on more commercials? Where's Drew Brees playing ping pong with Justin Timberlanke? It's the machine, I say!


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#794100 - 02/08/10 05:13 AM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
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Mike Caro Substudio Offline
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Carrie Underwood who CAN sing was great at the Superbowl untill...
The End of the song...

Actually I didn't notice she was using the pitch corrector at all until the end. She went way out of key and you could hear the the thing fighting to pull her back in... The more off you are the more you notice the effect sound on that thing.

Carrie is a wonderful singer and that is one hell of a song to sing. I have heard her do it before better but she also played it safer then.
Now singing outside at a football stadium is a much harder task so to me it's understandable. And she went for notes in another stratosphere.

Hey I been watching my Midnight Specials and they are live, Been paying close attention to everything.
Tell ya what Linda Ronstadt had no problems smile

Regardless of anything we feel or think it's still human beings we are talking about and anyone can be off at any time.
Even Michael Jordan had bad games...
But this defending her like she's your kid isn't the best thing either. If your a pro and you get up there and you get paid then you are expected to deliver. And she gets The Most this year...
I know singing is hard, but heck playing aint to easy either. When I showcased for Arista Records I just turned 19 I had been playing the bass for only one year at the time.

First audition for a Major Record label. Wanna talk nervous...
I looked them dead in the eye, and did not make one mistake or slip up in all 7 songs. Not one!
We practiced 4 nights a week, and then I did on my own.
It would be okay to make mistakes or be off, but OFF? that ain't never happening on something important. As long as I have nobody trying to sack me or knock me out the only opponent is me smile
That means PRACTICE and know your [naughty word removed].

Pink sings well live as do other recent stars, has anyone thought about who else was nonminated for BEST FEMALE VOCALIST of the year and lost? I mean I don't know who the Nominees were but I know Pink is a much better singer as is Carrie Underwood.
How is it fair to the others? Gotta consider EVERYTHING I know I do.

Hey Taylor is sweet as far as I know and adorable so I felt bad for her too.
Hopefully she keeps her poise as I feel she will and continue her successful career of making young girls lives very happy!!

Like Marc says, okay somebody fell we don't have to kick em do we? smile






Thanks!
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#794194 - 02/08/10 02:00 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Joe Wrabek (D)]  
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Tom Shea Offline
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I also thought that Taylor and Stevie were not a good combination.

Tom


Thomas Shea

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#794198 - 02/08/10 02:11 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Tom Shea]  
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Colin Ward Offline
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This is why Taylor is so popular......

Live in the tour bus


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


#794229 - 02/08/10 04:34 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Colin Ward]  
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Herbie Gaines Offline
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She is so popular because she MOVES the people that listen to her...it IS that simple


Herbie
JPF Chicago Chapter Coordinator
http://www.herbietunes.com

#794385 - 02/09/10 11:36 AM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Sausagelink]  
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Tricia Baker Offline
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I only have a few things to say about Taylor. She's young. She's talented. She's beautiful. AND, she's very classy. I will continue to buy her cd's. I'm in the demographic that actually BUYS cd's rather than rips them so I think my opinion counts more than some of those heartless critics.


"Grits is one of those country-boy words that is both singular and plural-like deer, elk and sheep. I think the singular is appropriate when there's a modifier that makes it clear one is talking about something specific. Like, 'Grits are good for you, but these here grits is tasty.'"~~Joe Wrabek
#794390 - 02/09/10 01:01 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Tricia Baker]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Tricia,

You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! You go girl!

MAB

#794393 - 02/09/10 01:27 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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lindzcountry-Lindsey Offline
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I really like Taylor swifts songs. She is a very talented young writer. I have always said when she sings live on any show, grammys whatever, she does not sound as good as her cds. But she is still a very talented singer and songwriter especially to be so young. I still support Taylor Swift and enjoy her music

Last edited by lindzcountry-Lindsey; 02/10/10 09:35 AM.
#794444 - 02/09/10 05:55 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: lindzcountry-Lindsey]  
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BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
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My 2 cents worth. Here are my reasons why I think Taylor Swift merits such harsh criticism or should I say the suits and backers behind Miss Swift more than deserve criticism.
We are not talking about a little girl singing in a local bar who can be forgiven for being out of tune and writing average songs. We are talking about an international superstar who has just won a Grammy. Saying she had an off night or blaming it on a sound problem is NO EXCUSE. I have heard her sing live several times and each time she has struggled to sing in pitch with decent tone and control. Go into any bar and the chances of finding someone who can put in a similar or better performance are high and these people do not have the luxury of sound checks and top engineers working at their desk. Chances are the songs they write are also of a similar standard to Miss Swift's which at best are average even when compared to songs posted on this forum.
Most musicians and serious followers of music should be able and honest enough to spot talent or lack of it and be able to see beyond the hype.
We all know this business is fickle and unfair but that is all the more reason to expose impostors rather than defend them.
There are always sheep who follow the trends, who are easily led and cannot discern good from average. The public at large can be very tasteless, gullible and stupid sometimes. As musicians who know about music we should be more honest, knowledgable and discerning.
I am not saying Taylor Swift sucks just saying in all honesty that she is overhyped, over-rated and punching way above her weight. Probably like most starlets before her she will be forgotton in a year or so.

#794465 - 02/09/10 08:03 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Kevin Emmrich Online content
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Crozet, VA
Colin: Thanks for that video. I've seen that a few times awhile back -- she sounds fine to me.

Big Jim:
Quote
Most musicians and serious followers of music should be able and honest enough to spot talent or lack of it and be able to see beyond the hype.
Exactly! And most of the musicians and serious followers of music on this site seem to think Taylor is talented.

Kevin


"Good science comes in peer reviewed journals. Conspiracy theories come in YouTube videos. "
Kevin @ bandcamp: Crows Say Vee-Eh (and Kevin @50/90 2019)
#794468 - 02/09/10 08:24 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
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Sorry Kevin. I have seen more anti than pro opinions and folk must be tone deaf to think she sings in tune. As a musician and singer I would expect a grammy winner to at the very least be able to put in a decent live performance. Perhaps I am just a bit more discerning than most.

#794539 - 02/10/10 02:38 AM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Sausagelink]  
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Sausagelink Offline
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I kinda wish I'd never posted to start this thread. But I just had a thought.

I thought on one side there's Madonna and Britney Spears and on the other side there's Carrie Underwood and Taylor Swift. Out of all these ladies, Carrie's got the most "powerful" voice. I honestly don't know much Madonna music or Britney music. When I think Madonna, I think whore. Sorry, that's the way it is. I don't do that for any other singer I can think of. Madonna worked hard to get me to think like that. When I think Britney, I think of a troubled child who lost custody of her kids. When I think Carrie, I think class and talent. When I think Taylor, I think of childhood dreams coming true and the blossoming of a mature singer/songwriter.

I'd rather see Taylor Swift and Carrie Underwood be big stars than Britney Spears and Madonna.

#794559 - 02/10/10 07:15 AM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Sausagelink]  
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Kevin Edward Rose Offline
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At age 20, Taylor Swift is a very talented songwriter who knows her target demographic and writes good songs that her target audience can relate to. She seems to be a smart business woman and is a good role model. She may not the best singer in the world, but she's not bad. Heck, she's a better singer than Bob Dylan, and her songwriting and performance skills are likely to improve as she gains experience.


Kevin Edward Rose
Celtic, Americana, whatever the folk.
Hailed by Performing Songwriter magazine as a "valued subscriber".
More music sold than Elvis and the Beatles combined!*
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#794562 - 02/10/10 07:30 AM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Sausagelink]  
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Mike Caro Substudio Offline
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Madonna, when I think of Madonna I think of "SMART" and hard working entertainment business person. Not singer,songwriter musician.

Why? Well besides the obvious 1- she DOESN'T write her own songs at least not for the first 20 + years.

I feel someone who is mainly only a singer or even if they write some should go around and take the BEST song from each songwriter they find, encounter or associate with. That is how you have HUGE songs sell lots of ALBUMS/CD's not 99cent downloads. And how you have your songs played for decades & beyond, weddings parties you name it....

2- She re-invents herself over & over & over.

3- Moving on to different PRODUCERS just like with the writers Madonna doen't sit on one thing and one sound and keep feeding you the same thing over & over.

I remember when we were working in the studio and my producer friend Tommy was very close to getting a Madonna track to work on.
She would get whoever was the hottest producers and move through them, when she hooked up with Shep Pettibone and did Vogue
Which I think was a brilliant pop track.

Different writers, different styles, different producers sounds,
The work, the dance, the acting, the maintaining of image. I can be a Marlyn Monroe without killing myself....

This is what I give tons of credit to Madonna for. All that said she should NOT be in the rock n roll hall of fame. That is silly!


Thanks!
Peace Mike
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#794574 - 02/10/10 08:11 AM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Kevin Edward Rose]  
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Mike Caro Substudio Offline
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Originally Posted by Kevin Edward Rose
At age 20, Taylor Swift is a very talented songwriter who knows her target demographic and writes good songs that her target audience can relate to. She seems to be a smart business woman and is a good role model. She may not the best singer in the world, but she's not bad. Heck, she's a better singer than Bob Dylan, and her songwriting and performance skills are likely to improve as she gains experience.


Kev I agree with that... especially the role model, she really does.

On the Dylan vocal thing, I for one can not take too much Dylan vocally, but once in a while he hits something where his vocal is wonderful like on "Lay Lady Lay" he must have been listening to Gordon Lightfoot at the time smile Gorgeous.

I don't think that is good comparison example, because like Dylan or not he is TOTALLY recognizable. He like a Jagger for example or Neil Young are about "Style" singing more than pure voice singing. Randy Newman etc...

Taylor is not... Not only does her voice sound like so many others, her style which is POP people... or you can call it the "New Country Music" which is - lots & lots of POP/ Pop Rock. The only thing Country about Taylor is her address.
It is very very current and marketable and on that Hot 100 chart because she is pop.

Ever hear the song "Why Can't I" by Liz Phair
This is very good pop song....

Here let me show ya's something, watch a bit of these.

Why Can't I - Liz Phair
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4QiSL4V0sE

Complicated - Avril Lavine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGXYAJoDWCk

You Belong To Me - Taylor Swift
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2Mjp0ozGLo

Okay you see? Pop - Pop/rock, Liz & Avril have the more potent vocal. Hear the similarities? But one thing they all have is this... they are all CATCHY!

First all these girls know how to write pop hit songs, they know how to write HOOKS all the way through and most of all CHORUSES!!!
They write CHORUSES!! Can you not hear this? smile

Many writers not excluding HERE do not have this ability, the ability to do that. If doing that equals "No Talent" then yes Taylor and the others above have NO Talent!

These are all good pop songs, That is why they ate HITS And especially for this time/era.
If you (meaning anyone) wrote one you may even think so yourself. smile It is not easy!!!! So many people mistake simple with easy!

In all my pain, suffering and anguish, I have at least had the personal self satisfaction of knowing that I have. It's what makes me different than the hundreds of wonderful players who come over to work, who can't. And some writers who write for themselves who can't..
And knowing that as a writer and musician I can always DO whatever I want personally (who's stopping ya) that's one thing.
But to have a major label or major publisher in this or ANY decade pick up one of my songs, and give it massive exposure... everybody mostly saying hey yeah i like that song!

Well that's a whole another story..... Invest in YOU!
Give me the means and funds to sit down here and make hour long epic songs ONLY for me and those doing it with me!!! Or just light guitars on fire... Anything but not have to GET UP go to work & punch a time card....

Trust me, I feel it from every angle & perspective.

Yes - She is NOT, Carol King, Joni Mitchel, Carly Simon, Janis Ian, Joan Baez, Rick Lee Jones, The Indigo Girls, etc...
Pop chart music is NOT what is used to be in the 60's & 70's

But who is? Nobody! If they were her competition Taylor would be a Model instead. Can't kill a person for doing what everyone else in there area of the industry around them is...


Thanks!
Peace Mike
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#794592 - 02/10/10 10:04 AM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Mike Caro Substudio]  
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BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
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I do not think that many if any of the above mentioned deserve the acclaim they receive. They are all products of the system and without going to deeply into it all have weaknesses in performance and are little or no better than many others who do not make it.

Swift is pitchy nasally and irritating.
Dylan sounds like a wasp in a jar.
Madonna.....well I will not go into who she did to get a start she does not write and is only an average singer.
Even Jagger is not a great singer and his band are nowhere near the class act they are hailed as. Never have been. There have always been better bands who never made it as big. I still see bands who IMO are far better players and performers.

As a singer I regularily go into studios and sing live at different venues. I know a great singer or band when I hear one. I see people every day who are far better performers and singers than the pop stars some hail as heros. It never stops amazing me why some of these people make it big. I reckon, given the money and resources of the top labels, I could make any talentless kid off the street a star. Simon Cowell does it all the time.
OK some of the stars have a little talent but most have not much. PLEASE do not say they are something special when they clearly are not. Most pop and country stars are just mediocre club acts who have made it big or members of the public who appear on a talent show and get lucky. The difference between then and most of the guys working the clubs is not talent just fame and fortune and recognition.
The public have been conditioned to accept mediocrity and most have not the ability to recognise the difference between average and greatness.

#794611 - 02/10/10 11:07 AM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Mike Caro Substudio Offline
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NY
Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES


Even Jagger is not a great singer and his band are nowhere near the class act they are hailed as. Never have been.



Jim Jim, this doesn't surprise me as you also said, Lennon had very little talent...

Your putting everything in column A or B and losing site of many basic things. Like the attitude of ROCK N ROLL for one. And a sound or style of voice makes one a better singer than another.

I mean shouldn't Joe Cocker suck too? Louis Armstrong?
It can go & on. Gotta say your pinpointing to your preferences a bit too much.

I have been in bars and clubs my whole life as well and I see some real talent but NOWHERE NEAR the kind The Stones had ANYWHERE! EVER!
All I see are COVER BANDS and original artist who don't have ONE song as good as any known Stones song...

Or Dylan or Springsteen, I mean really c'mon

And if even what these kids do today takes zero talent and is so easy, why can't so many here match them? Is it beneath you to write a current hit song?

I know there is plenty wrong and lacking in today's music industry but you are showing me that you do not love music as much as you think. All you focus on is negative, you never talk about about anything good. Yes the top 10 is dismal but it's not the only music being put to CD either. Find something to listen to... smile


Thanks!
Peace Mike
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#794629 - 02/10/10 12:01 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Mike Caro Substudio]  
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BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
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Mike... many people do match the talent of the stars and quite a few exceed it. That is a positive. I am not blind I am observant.
On a positive note there are some great artists and songs out there. The negative is that we all know they will never make it big because a minority hold the industry to ransom and control its every move. They dictate what will sell and talent or ability does not enter the equation. The public just follow.
Just because something is popular and people buy it does not make it great. On the flip just because something is obscure and unknown does not make it suck. I am a positive person but also a realist....I know real talent from hype.

#794684 - 02/10/10 02:40 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Kevin Edward Rose]  
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Scott Campbell Offline
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Originally Posted by Kevin Edward Rose
Heck, she's a better singer than Bob Dylan, and her songwriting and performance skills are likely to improve as she gains experience.


Kevin, that's like saying Norman Rockwell is a better painter than Van Gogh. smile

Better able paint a scene accurately - possibly. Better able to give the viewer an emotional response? To half the folks, yes - to the other half, no. smile

Scott

#794704 - 02/10/10 03:45 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Scott Campbell]  
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Kevin Edward Rose Offline
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Kevin Edward Rose  Offline
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Don't get me wrong. I'm a HUGE Dylan fan (but my wife is trying to get me to lose weight.) Maybe I should have said she's a better technical singer than Dylan. I don't own any of Taylor Swift's music, but I have just about everything Bob Dylan ever recorded.

I think I've said this before someone on these boards, but my dream is to share a stage with Bob Dylan, Lou Reed, Neil Young and Macy Gray. That way, there may be some people who don't think my vocals completely suck by comparison. whistle


Kevin Edward Rose
Celtic, Americana, whatever the folk.
Hailed by Performing Songwriter magazine as a "valued subscriber".
More music sold than Elvis and the Beatles combined!*
http://www.KevinEdwardRose.com
http://www.youtube.com/KevinEdwardRose
#794768 - 02/10/10 07:06 PM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Kevin Edward Rose]  
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ben willis Offline
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Just watched the Grammy performance for the first time on YouTube. What's the big deal? It was live. Who is perfect when playing live? So Stevie Nicks played the tambourine. Big deal. That's her niche'. She played the tambourine with Fleetwood Mac.

Would the Taylor Swift bashers rather see her do what Ashley Simpson did on Saturday Night Live? She was caught red handed lip syncing and walked off the stage. Real class act.

By the way, wasn't that Tom Tracy playing the guitar?

#794928 - 02/11/10 01:19 AM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Tricia Baker Offline
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Well, I seem to recall that everytime I saw a live performance back in the 70's everyone (including the Who) sucked-all but Linda Ronstadt. She was the only one worth listening to live....back in the day. I just remember being SO darned disappointed.

I see Mike Caro thinks Madonna keeps reinventing herself. She's been a Sex Pistol her whole career. That's not re-inventing yourself. That's being a 50 year old sexual Diva and more power to her because she looks great. I wouldn't buy her cd nor would I go see her in concert. I would go to see Taylor Swift, however.

Last edited by Tricia Baker; 02/11/10 01:21 AM.

"Grits is one of those country-boy words that is both singular and plural-like deer, elk and sheep. I think the singular is appropriate when there's a modifier that makes it clear one is talking about something specific. Like, 'Grits are good for you, but these here grits is tasty.'"~~Joe Wrabek
#794932 - 02/11/10 01:28 AM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Tricia Baker]  
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Mark Kaufman Offline
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LEAVE TAYLOR ALONE!!!

[Linked Image]

#794941 - 02/11/10 02:02 AM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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"Tampa Stan" Good (D) Offline
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Posts: 29,275
Tampa, Florida since 1973
Ha! Well-Put, Mark!

Hey, Us Kids grew up..took our Heros with us...& NOW..it's the Young Kids Chance to make up their Own Heros as they grow along.

I DID look at all 3 Artists Sub referred-us-to...& hadda note that ALL those Babes were cashin'-in on ANGST...& IRONY. (Can't remember anything-much-HAPPY, except the SILENT Ending in that VIDEO where Taylor GOT-the-Guy..in Her Angst-Filled Big Hit.)

Contrast that to, say, Madonna's "Papa Don't Preach"..PLENTY of Angst..yet.."I'm keepin' my baby" DID carry a JMO "Positive Message"...(&..heh..a total "Whore" wouldn'ta Kept-That-Kid, eh?)

I'm with Jim on the "Sales-doesn't-Equal-Superior-Talent" bit. & I'll add Stevie Nicks kinda vocally-sucked the ONE time I saw/heard her in-concert...in Lakeland..ages-ago. BUT I LOVE her RECORDED Stuff..what a VOICE!~ (Most of the time...)

Waal...Back to Lurk Mode.
Best Wishes,
Stan

#794948 - 02/11/10 02:43 AM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 8,318
Tricia Baker Offline
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Tricia Baker  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 8,318
Greenwood, LA USA
Point taken, Mark. Time for me to take a computer break. I guess nobody's allowed to have an opinion anymore except you guys.


"Grits is one of those country-boy words that is both singular and plural-like deer, elk and sheep. I think the singular is appropriate when there's a modifier that makes it clear one is talking about something specific. Like, 'Grits are good for you, but these here grits is tasty.'"~~Joe Wrabek
#794949 - 02/11/10 02:47 AM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Kevin Edward Rose]  
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 705
Sausagelink Offline
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Sausagelink  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 705
Originally Posted by Kevin Edward Rose
I think I've said this before someone on these boards, but my dream is to share a stage with Bob Dylan, Lou Reed, Neil Young and Macy Gray. That way, there may be some people who don't think my vocals completely suck by comparison. whistle


LOL. I know what you mean. Ever heard Paul Williams sing? He used to be introduced on old talk shows as "a great singer" and he was one of the worst I ever heard. He was a good composer though. (Rainy Days and Mondays, Evergreen, We've Only Just Begun, etc.) His brother Mentor was a successful country writer in the 80s.

Kristofferson ain't that good a singer either but I love to hear him.

Here's Paul Williams singing one of his biggest hits: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwe6AKah0RQ&feature=related

#795026 - 02/11/10 08:57 AM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Sausagelink]  
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,524
Jerry Jakala Offline
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Jerry Jakala  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,524
Pinellas Park.FL USA
Burt Baccarach was a great song writer but his vocals made my ears bleed.
I just saw Kristofferson with Roseanne Cash,& a few other's doing a songwriter circle.
His vocals have improved.



http://www.jerryjakala.com
http://cdbaby.com/cd/jakalajerry2

The difference between genius and stupidity is that there is a limit on genius.-Albert Einstein
#795032 - 02/11/10 09:24 AM Re: TEARING TAYLOR DOWN [Re: Jerry Jakala]  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,541
Michele Howlett Offline
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Michele Howlett  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,541
Hunter Valley NSW Australia
Hi All, hmm, okay.

Taylor Swift & Jasmine Rae is my all time top favorite Artists at the moment, but I do have lots of others too. Being honest, I wouldn't give a hoot if either of them sang out of pitch at any time, I absolutely love their songs. At present, I'm shattered, Taylor was performing at Newcastle, in which is only an hour away from where I'm living, but I didn't have the finances to go see her, golly gosh.

What attracted me to Taylor, is her unique tone, it stands out, she isn't stuck up, she doesn't walk around like she is better then anyone else, she dresses herself in clothing that sets a fantastic example to our children, their is so much that I love about her, and I hope she never changes. She absolutely loves her parents, loves having fun, she is just a normal happy go lucky girl.

As to Jasmine Rae, you should google her name, she is a young Australian artist, and doesn't this girl rock. My current favorite song that she sings is, 'DID I JUST SAY THAT' very cute song, and all her other songs she sings, Wow, doesn't this girl have a voice that stands out.

I have others Reba McEntire, Rascal Flatts, Pink, The McClymonts, Keith Urban, Sonny Cowgirls, Kelly Clarkson, The Bee Gee's, The Beatles, Rolling Stones, I probably could never count them all, heaps more, I even have JPF members songs on my favorite list, Mike Caro, Big Jim, Joice & Calvin, David, etc.

I think what annoys me the most, is the critism, leave Taylor alone, leave all the stars alone as a matter of fact, they are their, and good luck to them I say.

Hugs Michele

Last edited by Michele Bolton; 02/11/10 09:35 AM.

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