Who's Online Now
18 registered members (JAPOV, Fdemetrio, couchgrouch, DonnieWitt, Gavin Sinclair, E Swartz, glynda, Everett Adams, Guy E. Trepanier, 3 invisible), and 285 guests, and
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Shout Box
Member Spotlight
loneturtle
loneturtle
Gloucestershire, UK
Posts: 54
Joined: April 2008
Show All Member Profiles 
What's Going On
Please delete my profile
by Fdemetrio. 02/27/21 07:01 PM
Difference between Liking and Appreciating
by Fdemetrio. 02/27/21 11:40 AM
Don't Go
by Gavin Sinclair. 02/27/21 10:54 AM
I'll Pray For You
by Michael W. Brown. 02/26/21 07:00 PM
Legacies...
by John Lawrence Schick. 02/26/21 02:27 PM
Goodwill Coat
by couchgrouch. 02/26/21 12:32 PM
Upside Down
by Kevin Nevel. 02/26/21 08:27 AM
Short Story;The Night My Innoncence Was Lost
by Vicarn. 02/26/21 06:50 AM
Kaukonen, on Ferlinghetti. Feb. 2021
by Gary E. Andrews. 02/25/21 10:59 PM
Kaukonen, on Ferlinghetti. Feb. 2021
by Gary E. Andrews. 02/25/21 10:58 PM
Heart of Hearts
by Michael W. Brown. 02/25/21 10:07 PM
On Days Like This
by Michael W. Brown. 02/25/21 09:49 PM
Would the MP3 Board Folks like to have a showcase?
by Sunset Poet. 02/25/21 09:23 PM
Look Out Ottawa; Fraud Warning Site
by Gary E. Andrews. 02/25/21 07:30 PM
Song I'm working on
by bethanykoubsky. 02/25/21 09:34 AM
Steve Lukather Interview
by R&M. 02/25/21 03:37 AM
"Real Soon"
by VNORTH2. 02/24/21 07:32 PM
COLD WINTER'S NIGHT. DOUG MURPHY/TRAVIS
by Travis david. 02/23/21 07:28 AM
Streets of New York
by Travis david. 02/23/21 06:41 AM
Come Tell Me You Love Me
by John Lawrence Schick. 02/22/21 06:27 PM
Forever Us
by ckiphen. 02/22/21 03:25 PM
Or You Can Choose To Follow Me
by VNORTH2. 02/22/21 11:50 AM
It Is Done
by Jethro Aberdeen. 02/22/21 04:26 AM
"Fallen Angel" Dedicated to Patsy Cline
by Kevin Nevel. 02/22/21 03:59 AM
A One Night Romance. Mackie and Vic
by Vicarn. 02/21/21 05:38 PM
Second hand love
by ckiphen. 02/21/21 04:45 PM
Crazy Good Musicians on Youtube
by Fdemetrio. 02/20/21 12:38 AM
My Soul is Burning--light rock
by E Swartz. 02/19/21 01:54 PM
Top Posters(All Time)
Calvin 19,839
Travis david 12,070
Kevin Emmrich 10,938
Jean Bullock 10,330
Kaley Willow 10,240
Two Singers 9,649
Joice Marie 9,186
Mackie H. 8,944
glynda 8,682
Mike Dunbar 8,574
Tricia Baker 8,318
couchgrouch 7,958
Colin Ward 7,909
Corey 7,357
Vicarn 6,754
Mark Kaufman 6,588
Wyman Lloyd 6,578
ben willis 6,111
Lynn Orloff 5,788
niteshift 5,762
Louis 5,725
Linda Sings 5,608
KimberlyinNC 5,210
Neil Cotton 4,909
Derek Hines 4,893
DonnaMarilyn 4,666
Blake Hill 4,528
Bob Cushing 4,389
Roy Cooper 4,261
Bill Osofsky 4,199
Tom Shea 4,179
Cindy Miller 4,178
TamsNumber4 4,130
nightengale 4,096
MFB III 3,929
Caroline 3,865
Kolstad 3,817
Dan Sullivan 3,710
beechnut79 3,682
E Swartz 3,654
Dottie 3,427
joewatt 3,411
Bill Cooper 3,279
John Hoffman 3,199
Fdemetrio 3,196
Skip Johnson 3,027
Pam Hurley 3,007
Terry G 3,005
PopTodd 2,890
Sunset Poet 2,872
Harriet Ames 2,870
Nigel Quin 2,865
MidniteBob 2,760
Nelson 2,615
Tom Tracy 2,558
Polly Hager 2,526
Jerry Jakala 2,524
Al Alvarez 2,499
Eric Thome 2,448
Hummingbird 2,401
Stan Loh 2,263
Sam Wilson 2,242
Judy Hollier 2,232
Wendy D 2,226
Erica Ellis 2,202
TrumanCoyote 2,096
Marty Helly 2,027
maccharles 2,000
DukeWill 1,988
floyd jane 1,985
Clint Anglin 1,904
cindyrella 1,888
David Wright 1,866
Clairejeanne 1,851
Cindy LaRosa 1,824
Ronald Boyt 1,675
Iggy 1,652
Noel Downs 1,633
Rick Heenan 1,608
Cal 1,574
Jack Swain 1,554
GocartMoz 1,552
Pete Larsen 1,537
Ann Tygart 1,529
Tom Breshers 1,487
RogerS 1,473
Tom Franz 1,473
Chuck Crowe 1,441
Ralph Blight 1,440
Rick Norton 1,429
Kenneth Cade 1,429
bholt 1,411
Letha Allen 1,408
in2piano 1,404
Stan Simons 1,402
mattbanx 1,384
Jen Shaner 1,373
Deej56 1,372
Charlie Wong 1,347
KevinP 1,324
Vondelle 1,316
Tom W. 1,313
Jan Petter 1,301
scottandrew 1,292
DakLander 1,265
Gerry 1,260
lane1777 1,253
PeteG 1,242
Ian Ferrin 1,235
Glen King 1,214
IdeaGuy 1,209
AaronAuthier 1,177
summeoyo 1,172
Diane Ewing 1,158
joro 1,082
IronKnee 1,079
BobbyJoe 1,075
S.DEE 1,040
yann 1,037
Tony A 1,016
9ne 1,011
argo 986
peaden 984
90 dB 964
Wolvman 960
JAPOV 958
Jak Kelly 912
krtinberg 890
Drifter 886
Petra 883
RJC 845
Brenda152 840
Nadia 829
Juan 797
ant 786
TKO 784
Dayson 781
frahmes 781
teletwang 762
Andy K 747
tbryson 737
Andy Kemp 734
Jackie444 731
3daveyO3 704
Dixie 701
Joy Boy 695
Knute 686
Irwin 681
Lee Arten 678
ckiphen 677
Moosesong 667
Pat Hardy 665
Katziis 652
R.T.MOORE 638
quality 637
CG King 622
douglas 621
Mel 614
R&M 603
NaomiSue 601
Shandy 589
Ria 587
TAMERA64 583
qbaum 570
nitepiano 566
pRISCILLA 556
Tink2 553
musica 539
deanbell 528
RobertK 527
BonzaiWag 523
Roderic 522
BB Wilbur 512
goodfolks 499
Zeek 487
Stu 486
Steve P. 481
KathyW 462
allenb 459
MaxG 458
Philjo 454
fanito 448
trush48 448
dmk 442
arealrush 437
DGR 436
avweek 435
Stephen D 433
Emmy 431
Rob L 426
marquez 422
kit 419
Softkrome 417
kyrksongs 415
RRon 408
Laura G. 407
VNORTH 407
Debra 407
eb 406
cuebald 399
EdPerrone 399
Dannyk1 395
Hobart 395
Davyboy49 393
Smile 389
GJShades 387
Ezt 384
tone 380
Marla 380
Cecilee 379
iggyiggy 378
coalminer 377
java 374
spidey 371
sweetsong 370
danny 367
Jim Ryan 360
Alek 358
papaG 353
Z - man 350
JamesDF5 348
John K 348
Jaden 344
ddreuter 341
TheBaz 340
Steggy 339
leif 339
tonedeaf 336
rickwork 334
Eddie Ray 332
Johnboy 328
Bob Lever 328
Helicon1 327
lucian 326
Muskie 321
kc 319
Z. Mulls 318
ptondreau 313
ONOFFON 312
Chris B. 310
trush 304
ed323 297
Ellen M 294
markus-ky 292
lizzorn 291
nicnac49 290
pomeranj 289
Char 286
ktunes 285
mastrose 280
pammie 279
pd 277
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
#785258 - 01/07/10 03:29 PM What makes a song good?  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
JPF Mentor
Mike Dunbar  Offline
JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
We get a continuous stream of threads that ask what makes songs popular, what makes them hits, why good songs don't become hits and so on. To me, the question boils down to this:

What makes a song good?

Can we agree on this?

Can we agree on one particular song being "good?"

If so or if not, does that tell us anything?

All the Best,
Mike


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#785261 - 01/07/10 03:38 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,242
Sam Wilson Offline
Top 200 Poster
Sam Wilson  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,242
Nashville, TN USA
To be honest, it takes a measure of commonality...., meaning that a lyric and the translation/interpretation of that lyric by music needs to be something that all of us listeners can relate to.
"I've been there, that song is about me!"


Co-Write Friendly.....Look at my blog on My Space.

http://www.cherokee46x@yahoo.com
http://www.myspace.com/ronnievanzantfan
http://www.facebook.com/sambwilson

Ronnie Van Zant fan
#785262 - 01/07/10 03:51 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,588
Mark Kaufman Offline
Mark Kaufman  Offline

Top 40 Poster

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,588
Minneapolis
Originally Posted by Mike Dunbar

What makes a song good?

Can we agree on this?


I highly doubt it. No joke, either. And it tells me plenty...I read it this way: people who post opinions here all have something in common--we're looking at songs from a different, more intimate perspective than the majority of music consumers. We either write them, perform them, aspire to do so, or have a keen insider's interest in songcraft. Most music consumers aren't concerned with some of the weird stuff we fret about, such as rhyming heart with start. They just like it or don't.

Our interpretation of that "good" question is usually very personal and subjective...so much so that we often cannot understand the value of hits that annoy us. We assume it's all poop, cranked out by hacks and approved by powerful boards of directors. Not so.

#785263 - 01/07/10 03:57 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Sam Wilson]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,909
Colin Ward Offline
Colin Ward  Offline

Top 30 Poster

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,909
Saint Petersburg. FL
I'll chime in -

1. It has to fit a musical pattern that makes sense to our ears - chords that go together in a fashion similar to what we like and probably similar to what we grew up with. That's why we still like I, IV, V songs. Mostly derivative - not too avant-garde. And with a resolution at the end of the chorus.

2. Like Sam said, It has to grab us emotionally in some way - happy, sad, love story, funny, whatever - but something.

3 Needs a beat or rhythm that moves you - makes you dance or tap your foot or lay down for a nap, but something that is fairly predictable.

4. Needs a hook that you can sing along with (vocal) or hum along with (instrumental). Repetitive enough to sink in one's brain.

5. Needs a good sound that appeals. Pleasant or striking voice, instrument, overall production.

Colin


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


#785265 - 01/07/10 03:59 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Sam Wilson]  
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,072
Scott Campbell Offline
Scott Campbell  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,072
Lakeland, FL, USA
"Good" is such a subjective thing. Some folks might think a song is good and others can't stand it. I don't think we can use "hits" and "good" as synonyms either. I can think of many of todays hits that older folks don't like. That statement was as true in the '60's as it is now. smile

So all hits aren't good and all good songs aren't hits.

Not sure the question can be answered without an objective definition of what "good" is. Something like "95% of those who listen to it really like it". smile

To reach this level, I think a few things would be essential:

(1) A melody that gets into your mind right away and stays there

(2) A lyric that is universal.

(3) Prosody between the two.....

The best example in my mind is "Yesterday".

Scott



#785266 - 01/07/10 04:02 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Sam Wilson]  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,762
niteshift Online content
niteshift  Online Content

Top 50 Poster

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,762
Fiji
Originally Posted by Sam Wilson
To be honest, it takes a measure of commonality...., meaning that a lyric and the translation/interpretation of that lyric by music needs to be something that all of us listeners can relate to.
"I've been there, that song is about me!"


Ditto ! In a nutshell.

cheers, niteshift

#785267 - 01/07/10 04:05 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Sam Wilson]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
JPF Mentor
Mike Dunbar  Offline
JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Originally Posted by Sam Wilson
To be honest, it takes a measure of commonality...., meaning that a lyric and the translation/interpretation of that lyric by music needs to be something that all of us listeners can relate to.
"I've been there, that song is about me!"


Good insight. Some questions along these lines.

Is there such thing as a universal song that everyone relates to?

Could there be a "bad" song that a lot of listeners relate to?

Wouldn't that make all very popular songs "good?"

Last edited by Mike Dunbar; 01/07/10 04:07 PM.

You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#785268 - 01/07/10 04:11 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Scott Campbell]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
JPF Mentor
Mike Dunbar  Offline
JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Originally Posted by Scott Campbell

The best example in my mind is "Yesterday".

Scott


But the Beatles aren't universally loved, or even thought of as "good":

http://www.areddy.net/beatles_suck/default.asp?page=faq



You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#785273 - 01/07/10 04:31 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,242
Sam Wilson Offline
Top 200 Poster
Sam Wilson  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,242
Nashville, TN USA
A bad song? That would require a whole different thread due to the sheer volume of opinions, wouldn't it?

A universal song? Is the term "universal" supposed to apply to each and every one of us? As a societal whole?

But....., our uniqueness and singularity is where the fun is.
If there is a universal song anywhere, I'd love to hear it, but my vote goes to the concept of everyone's take on life being at least somewhat separate.....as opposed to all of us being of the same mind.

As a writer, I do indeed wonder about these very same questions, but to simply define my own work as good or bad isn't important, I just put it across like I see it.


Co-Write Friendly.....Look at my blog on My Space.

http://www.cherokee46x@yahoo.com
http://www.myspace.com/ronnievanzantfan
http://www.facebook.com/sambwilson

Ronnie Van Zant fan
#785274 - 01/07/10 04:33 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Sam Wilson]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
JPF Mentor
Mike Dunbar  Offline
JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
I agree. Does that then make it impossible to name a song universally "good" based on everyone or anyone liking it?


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#785275 - 01/07/10 04:42 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,588
Mark Kaufman Offline
Mark Kaufman  Offline

Top 40 Poster

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,588
Minneapolis
I think so.

By the way, Mozart sucks. So do all those plants that like it.

#785276 - 01/07/10 04:42 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,242
Sam Wilson Offline
Top 200 Poster
Sam Wilson  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,242
Nashville, TN USA
The clear and concise defintion of "good" or "bad" isn't just sitting there patiently awaiting discovery, that is, unless I've been lied to all this time.

Billboard may disagree with me, but then isn't their word based solely on statistical data?

I've been writing lyrics for a long time, I've met a million writers, some were in successful bands, some were just like us...submitting online seeking the opinions of kindred spirits, but EVERYONE?

That's a hard one to pin down.


Co-Write Friendly.....Look at my blog on My Space.

http://www.cherokee46x@yahoo.com
http://www.myspace.com/ronnievanzantfan
http://www.facebook.com/sambwilson

Ronnie Van Zant fan
#785279 - 01/07/10 04:45 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: niteshift]  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 4,035
Joanne Lurgio Offline
Top 100 Poster
Joanne Lurgio  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 4,035
RI, USA
Originally Posted by niteshift
Originally Posted by Sam Wilson
To be honest, it takes a measure of commonality...., meaning that a lyric and the translation/interpretation of that lyric by music needs to be something that all of us listeners can relate to.
"I've been there, that song is about me!"


Ditto ! In a nutshell.

cheers, niteshift


I agree ..
already said, "Good" is subjective .. but i think a 'good' start is that "universal" subject .. the emotion and/or the experience being described is one that most listeners will relate to or understanding because they've been there before or knows someone who has .. the song now becomes 'personal' to the listener.

A "good" start smile

#785281 - 01/07/10 04:48 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Joanne Lurgio]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
JPF Mentor
Mike Dunbar  Offline
JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
So, could you, any of you, call a song you don't like "good" based on popularity? I mean, since it has a broad appeal to people?


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#785285 - 01/07/10 04:57 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,762
niteshift Online content
niteshift  Online Content

Top 50 Poster

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,762
Fiji
Yes, most definitly, but with the proviso it is musically acceptable to musicians.

i.e. popular, and musically "correct"

cheers, niteshift

#785286 - 01/07/10 04:59 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Joanne Lurgio]  
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,242
Sam Wilson Offline
Top 200 Poster
Sam Wilson  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,242
Nashville, TN USA
I will say this, there's not another crowd anywhere that I would want to ask this same question to......and hear their answers...
That means, we writers are the ones who would know, we work at creating songs, it is indeed personal for us.....we don't just listen or just dance to whatever is playing at the time.

However, the question of popularity can be addressed by inquiring as to why country music, which used to be so serious with lyrical content being tangible and reaching so deep within, but now is all bubble gum......with Taylor Swift singin' about teenage infatuation......whatever happened to Loretta Lynn and the real live heartbreak?


Co-Write Friendly.....Look at my blog on My Space.

http://www.cherokee46x@yahoo.com
http://www.myspace.com/ronnievanzantfan
http://www.facebook.com/sambwilson

Ronnie Van Zant fan
#785290 - 01/07/10 05:08 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Sam Wilson]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,909
Colin Ward Offline
Colin Ward  Offline

Top 30 Poster

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,909
Saint Petersburg. FL
Originally Posted by Sam Wilson
To be honest, it takes a measure of commonality...., meaning that a lyric and the translation/interpretation of that lyric by music needs to be something that all of us listeners can relate to.
"I've been there, that song is about me!"


A good song does not have to have intelligible lyrics. Brown Sugar by the Stones for instance - nobody can understand the lyrics except the hook. Frère Jacques which you probably learned as a kid in French without understanding them....

Frère Jacques, frère Jacques,
Dormez-vous? Dormez-vous?
Sonnez les matines! Sonnez les matines!
Din, dan, don. Din, dan, don.




Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


#785291 - 01/07/10 05:08 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,639
Samuel Harris Offline
Top 100 Poster
Samuel Harris  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,639
Pleasant Hill, Oregon
Originally Posted by Mike Dunbar
We get a continuous stream of threads that ask what makes songs popular, what makes them hits, why good songs don't become hits and so on. To me, the question boils down to this:

What makes a song good?

Can we agree on this?

Can we agree on one particular song being "good?"

If so or if not, does that tell us anything?

All the Best,
Mike


A song can be good and not a hit (Unchained Melody for instance, or nameless masterpieces sang at the Bluebird Cafe for that matter).

A song can be a hit and not be good (Do we really need an example here -how about currently Ke$ha's "Tic Toc")

A song can be popular and not a hit (Happy Birthday never climbed the charts did it?)

But a song cannot be a hit and not popular mainly because of semantics- popularity follows a "hit"

So clearly a good song could (and has) existed when nobody but a handful of people ever heard it. I used to think a great song would always be discovered but I know better now.

Now I named Unchained Melody as a good song because I like it and anyone who has ever discussed it with me like it. I guess you could find someone who thinks it is a terrible song but could they convincingly make their argument? I doubt they could anymore than I could make mine that it is a good song.

Still instinctively I believe that there is a difference in song quality that can be measured by more than a just a point of view. But, unfortunately I can't define it objectively. It is akin to trying to justify that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior to a non believer. I just stand there stuttering incredulous that this "non believer" can't understand that McBride's "Anyway" is better than Janice Jackson's "Nasty"

But McBride says it pretty well:

You can pour your soul out singing a song you believe in
that tomorrow they’ll forget you every sang
sing it anyway


"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
#785293 - 01/07/10 05:09 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Sam Wilson]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
JPF Mentor
Mike Dunbar  Offline
JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Nite,

What is "correct" musically? In tune and on time? Beyond that, what is "correct?"

Sam,

What makes Loretta Lynn's songs real and Taylor Swift's not?


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#785296 - 01/07/10 05:19 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,242
Sam Wilson Offline
Top 200 Poster
Sam Wilson  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,242
Nashville, TN USA
I was watching a show earlier today that was about womens' contributions to country music, and all of the sh*t that they had to go through over all the years......

Loretta Lynn was saying that she lived through the situations that she wrote and sang about........
I wonder if Taylor Swift lived through her own songs, because nowadays, it's not the artist who writes the lyric, it's somebody on Music Row.

Gettin' back to the accessibility issue, that's it.....songs are about real life, but it just doesn't pull at you anymore these days, y'know?


Co-Write Friendly.....Look at my blog on My Space.

http://www.cherokee46x@yahoo.com
http://www.myspace.com/ronnievanzantfan
http://www.facebook.com/sambwilson

Ronnie Van Zant fan
#785297 - 01/07/10 05:23 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,762
niteshift Online content
niteshift  Online Content

Top 50 Poster

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,762
Fiji
Originally Posted by Mike Dunbar
Nite,

What is "correct" musically? In tune and on time? Beyond that, what is "correct?"


Yeah, about that's it. Apart from that, go and be creative.

cheers, niteshift

#785298 - 01/07/10 05:23 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,588
Mark Kaufman Offline
Mark Kaufman  Offline

Top 40 Poster

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,588
Minneapolis
Originally Posted by Mike Dunbar
So, could you, any of you, call a song you don't like "good" based on popularity? I mean, since it has a broad appeal to people?


I will still occasionally slag a song based upon my personal taste, but I no longer look at a hit song I dislike and find no good in it. It comes down to a basic respect for humanity--whenever I hear words like "sheeple" or "masses", I feel the writer is condemning broad swaths of people for not sharing the "correct" notion of quality. As in, "they feed this Britney Spears crap to the masses who eat it up like sheeple".

Meanwhile, a teenager is listening to one of her singles in awe, loving the production, the performance, the songwriting, the audacity.

I prefer to stand behind that feeling then the one that condemns it, and I also stand behind the people who know how to make something that millions genuinely enjoy...rather than have shoved down their throats.

#785299 - 01/07/10 05:25 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,072
Scott Campbell Offline
Scott Campbell  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,072
Lakeland, FL, USA
Originally Posted by Mike Dunbar
Originally Posted by Scott Campbell

The best example in my mind is "Yesterday".

Scott


But the Beatles aren't universally loved, or even thought of as "good":

http://www.areddy.net/beatles_suck/default.asp?page=faq



Agreed - that's why you need statistics. grin

If the argument is that something as mundane as statistics shouldn't be applied to art, I might agree - but you can't define "good" objectively without them.

I'm inlined to go with 95% confidence, which is what most folks use in statistical tests.

I think Yesterday would pass that test. smile

Scott

#785300 - 01/07/10 05:26 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,639
Samuel Harris Offline
Top 100 Poster
Samuel Harris  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,639
Pleasant Hill, Oregon
I like Taylor Swift and I think she is an original judging by here hit "Our Song". It was quirking and fresh and it delighted me just like my own kids do when they say something original and I recognize that they have the "spark of Life" in them. Without dragging everything into theological discussion, I think there is an everlasting fountain of Life that flows in abundance through all of us but it is most apparent in young people. "Our Song" sprang from that fountain.

Maybe that is the answer, maybe good songs all spring from the fountain of Life and all the bad ones are just pretenders.



"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
#785301 - 01/07/10 05:27 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Sam Wilson]  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,588
Mark Kaufman Offline
Mark Kaufman  Offline

Top 40 Poster

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,588
Minneapolis
Originally Posted by Sam Wilson

Loretta Lynn was saying that she lived through the situations that she wrote and sang about........
I wonder if Taylor Swift lived through her own songs, because nowadays, it's not the artist who writes the lyric, it's somebody on Music Row.


Yeah, I think she does. She writes mostly her own stuff about her own young life...I think that's why she is so popular--what she says resonates with her listeners.

#785303 - 01/07/10 05:39 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,108
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,108
California
Mike D,

As long as people are free to dislike something, simply because everybody else likes it, then NO, "WE" cannot agree...

We can come close, though. There are certain things that humankind can find universally appealing, and certain things we can "know" are good, without actually liking them.

But this all leads to the irony, in that songs that are nearly universal are oft times not very "good" --though popular, and I think it's because critics are part of the human race, and need to be included in any definition of (who decides) what makes something "universally appealing."

Conversely...right now I am again watching the movie "Wings of Desire" (a favorite of mine)--which gets a 97% on the 'Tomatometer' so nearly all the "critics" love it...but this movie would be met with much indifference by the general public, as it is German, and has no strong narrative...

Mike D, you ask questions that at best can lead to an interesting discussion, and that's about all we can do, as a "WE" ...agree to disagree, and find a commonality in that. smile

Mike



Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 01/07/10 06:06 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#785304 - 01/07/10 05:42 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Samuel Harris]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
JPF Mentor
Mike Dunbar  Offline
JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Originally Posted by Samuel (joe) Harris
I like Taylor Swift and I think she is an original judging by here hit "Our Song". It was quirking and fresh and it delighted me just like my own kids do when they say something original and I recognize that they have the "spark of Life" in them. Without dragging everything into theological discussion, I think there is an everlasting fountain of Life that flows in abundance through all of us but it is most apparent in young people. "Our Song" sprang from that fountain.

Maybe that is the answer, maybe good songs all spring from the fountain of Life and all the bad ones are just pretenders.



So, Taylor Swift is not a pretender but Ke Sha is?


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#785308 - 01/07/10 05:54 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,242
Sam Wilson Offline
Top 200 Poster
Sam Wilson  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,242
Nashville, TN USA
Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman
Originally Posted by Sam Wilson

Loretta Lynn was saying that she lived through the situations that she wrote and sang about........
I wonder if Taylor Swift lived through her own songs, because nowadays, it's not the artist who writes the lyric, it's somebody on Music Row.


Yeah, I think she does. She writes mostly her own stuff about her own young life...I think that's why she is so popular--what she says resonates with her listeners.


I guess I should have asked about that first, but it seems like no one ever writes their own lyrics anymore.....

"Meanwhile, a teenager is listening to one of her singles in awe, loving the production, the performance, the songwriting, the audacity."

So, it's the craft itself, as opposed to the content (and the origin/evolution of said content) that counts toward the appeal of one song over another?


Co-Write Friendly.....Look at my blog on My Space.

http://www.cherokee46x@yahoo.com
http://www.myspace.com/ronnievanzantfan
http://www.facebook.com/sambwilson

Ronnie Van Zant fan
#785311 - 01/07/10 06:05 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Sam Wilson]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
JPF Mentor
Mike Dunbar  Offline
JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Originally Posted by Sam Wilson

So, it's the craft itself, as opposed to the content (and the origin/evolution of said content) that counts toward the appeal of one song over another?


Is that what you think?


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#785312 - 01/07/10 06:10 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
JPF Mentor
Mike Dunbar  Offline
JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski


But this all leads to the irony, in that songs that are nearly universal are oft times not very "good" --though popular,




Not "good" how? Can you name a few?


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#785313 - 01/07/10 06:11 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,588
Mark Kaufman Offline
Mark Kaufman  Offline

Top 40 Poster

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,588
Minneapolis
Originally Posted by Mike Dunbar
Is that what you think?


I think he thinks that's what I think...but I don't think. Hurts my brainhole.

#785314 - 01/07/10 06:15 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,242
Sam Wilson Offline
Top 200 Poster
Sam Wilson  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,242
Nashville, TN USA
I'm asking, just like you are........

Ultimately, it's all of the individual elements that contribute equally in the creation process that culminate in a completed song.......

But, the question was about what constitutes popularity, and to some young kid just listening to the radio in his/her bedroom, it's not the individual elements of the song that appeals, it's the finished piece, right?


Co-Write Friendly.....Look at my blog on My Space.

http://www.cherokee46x@yahoo.com
http://www.myspace.com/ronnievanzantfan
http://www.facebook.com/sambwilson

Ronnie Van Zant fan
#785316 - 01/07/10 06:19 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Sam Wilson]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
JPF Mentor
Mike Dunbar  Offline
JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
The question is, what makes a song good? Some folks say it's popularity. Some say the complexity or theme of the lyrics. Some say it is a comparison with other songs that they think are good. Some say the beat. Some say the video.

Now, I know what I like, and I think what I like is good. I'm interested in seeing if any of us can agree on what it is that makes a song good, and, if not, what does that mean?


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#785318 - 01/07/10 06:26 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,108
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,108
California
Originally Posted by Mike Dunbar
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
[color:#000000]

But this all leads to the irony, in that songs that are nearly universal are oft times not very "good" --though popular,




Not "good" how? Can you name a few?



Generally, I am thinking of things that sell in mass quantities that critics hate. These things are by no means universally appealing, but if we have to deal with absolutes, any argument is pointless.

I would rather argue about universals like the octave, and the fifth, and a narrative of some kind. One needs to look for common things between all cultures, and then such notions and "good" or "bad" fall by the wayside, because how can the interval of a fifth be "good" ? Why is telling a story, better than "stream-of-consciousness" ? They aren't...they just "are" ...and they just "are" in far greater numbers...[/color]

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 01/07/10 06:28 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#785319 - 01/07/10 06:29 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
JPF Mentor
Mike Dunbar  Offline
JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
We can argue about octaves or the fifth at the theory forum. Actually, I'm not looking for arguments, just clarifications.

So, to all of you, is it critics who define "good?"


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#785321 - 01/07/10 06:34 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,108
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,108
California
Critics can be considered "mentors of the good" --but no, not necessarily "definers" of what is good. They just make it their business to start the conversation. It is up to everyone else to care enough to have their own opinions.

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 01/07/10 06:35 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#785323 - 01/07/10 06:36 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,588
Mark Kaufman Offline
Mark Kaufman  Offline

Top 40 Poster

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,588
Minneapolis
I think we all define it for ourselves, which is why no one is pinning it down.


#785324 - 01/07/10 06:37 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,817
Kolstad Offline
Top 100 Poster
Kolstad  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,817
Denmark
Good/bad are judgements of value. To establish a common ground for that, we need to agree upon a value system of some kind. Those who can do that, can be included in the group of those who 'judges'.

It seems like a reasonable question, having in mind that a&r people are supposed to be 'professionals' in the music industry (we have discussed that one before, as I recall). So they must have criteria to value good and bad.. and there are quite a lot of scientific research that are used to ground hit song criteria in, especially for markers like 'coherence', 'memorability', 'contrast', 'loudness' ect. But the research never seems to capture the values we hear as 'soul', and the family of related concepts we associate with 'good' music.

Most of all good/bad is known as 'empty signifyers', meaning that these words are empty (of meaning/content) untill someone use them to signify something they prefer. Thought of that way, good/bad are not just 'subjective', but deeply political (intrest based) judgements.

In a weak moment, I could agree on a meaning of 'good' along the lines of "well crafted songs", but then we'll have to discuss well crafted for what? Songs can be made for many uses like listening, charts, movies, sports, sales, art, therapy etc., so then the discussion just moves out to broader categories like 'genre' and 'function'. And there we start all over again..

The way we tend to deal with these questions, is to be more and more abstract, like Samuel (joe) Harris. It's not just to avoid the probelm in question, as there's a great value in abstractions - they can really unify us, when meaning is so open and including, that we all cannot but agree.

So, I'll buy the "there is an everlasting fountain of Life that flows in abundance through all of us". That rings true enough to me, and to me it feels like if songs express or display some kind of "spark of life", it's "good".

Theology, thank you!

#785326 - 01/07/10 06:40 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
JPF Mentor
Mike Dunbar  Offline
JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Yeah, I think critics, at their best, can challenge us to analyze ourselves. Also, they, along with teachers, can help us listen with intent, but I'm not sure if listening very critically doesn't often cause us to miss the forest for the trees.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#785328 - 01/07/10 06:43 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
JPF Mentor
Mike Dunbar  Offline
JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Well, I like "Tutti Frutti" a lot. I think it is a very "good" song. Who agrees? Why?


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#785329 - 01/07/10 06:45 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,108
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,108
California
Originally Posted by Mike Dunbar
Yeah, I think critics, at their best, can challenge us to analyze ourselves. Also, they, along with teachers, can help us listen with intent, but I'm not sure if listening very critically doesn't often cause us to miss the forest for the trees.


Ah! It's good to see you jump out of the role of "Socrates" for a minute, and have an opinion, yourself! smile

Then let me wax Socratic for a moment and ask you, Mike D, how does one come to listen critically, and not for (potential) enjoyment? Is it something that one does unbeknownst to oneself? Doesn't the critic, by nature, "enjoy" listening critically, and so, see trees too?

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 01/07/10 06:48 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#785330 - 01/07/10 06:46 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,401
Hummingbird Offline
Hummingbird  Offline

Top 100 Poster

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,401
Victoria, B.C. Canada
Originally Posted by Mike Dunbar
We get a continuous stream of threads that ask what makes songs popular, what makes them hits, why good songs don't become hits and so on. To me, the question boils down to this:

What makes a song good?

Can we agree on this?

Can we agree on one particular song being "good?"

If so or if not, does that tell us anything?

All the Best,
Mike


A song is "good" if it touches me, moves me, creates a response in me, to the music & words. It's also "good" if I can remember it.

I find that most people like Amazing Grace, and most people like Silent Night. When we play You Are My Sunshine, most people sing along. Walk the Line, too.

What's "good" IMO may not be "good" in someone else's opinion, but IMO they are wrong grin


Vikki Flawith: Songwriter/Composer, Singer/Voice Teacher

12Feb10- *NEW BLOG: "BE YOUR OWN GURU ;)"

MY STORY & MY MUSIC: http://www.vikkiflawith.com
Be a FAN: http://www.reverbnation.com/vikkiflawith
#785332 - 01/07/10 06:49 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,199
John Hoffman Offline
Top 100 Poster
John Hoffman  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,199
St. Peters, Mo.
Foot,
you asked if we can agree on one particular song being good.

personally I think Joanne's "Walking on Sacred Ground" is GREAT but there are many people who cannot relate to it.

does anyone/everyone think "Margaritaville" is a good song?

Actually identifying a few universal gems would be productive. Only then can we determine why.

John



Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword never had an editor.
#785333 - 01/07/10 06:49 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,817
Kolstad Offline
Top 100 Poster
Kolstad  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,817
Denmark
I think 'the critic' has been dead philosophically for some years now. The reason is that a critic is really not adding anything to the actual work of art he/she critisises. It's not even a subtext, criticisms are basically always a whole new text, fundamentally detached from the object thats critisised.

To many, that has made criticism irrelevant as a means to judge good/bad art. Of course critisism in the context of learning a craft, like writing songs, or HIT songs (which I think is different), is more like mentoring and forming, and therefor can be very useful, allthough not at all 'apolitical'.

#785337 - 01/07/10 06:56 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Kolstad]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,817
Kolstad Offline
Top 100 Poster
Kolstad  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,817
Denmark
On the 'opinion' side (everything is..), I love a song like "I take a lot of pride in what I am" written by Jack Greene. I think it's good, anybody else? :-)

#785338 - 01/07/10 06:58 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Kolstad]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,108
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,108
California
Originally Posted by the songcabinet
I think 'the critic' has been dead philosophically for some years now. The reason is that a critic is really not adding anything to the actual work of art he/she critisises. It's not even a subtext, criticisms are basically always a whole new text, fundamentally detached from the object thats critisised.

To many, that has made criticism irrelevant as a means to judge good/bad art. Of course critisism in the context of learning a craft, like writing songs, or HIT songs (which I think is different), is more like mentoring and forming, and therefor can be very useful, allthough not at all 'apolitical'.


Magne, you are thinking of "critic" in the narrow sense, where Deconstructionists made some valid points. I am looking at the critical element in each of our psyches', which is not as detatchable! laugh Do not some of us perceive the "romance of Art" to be a DIALOGUE between the visceral, and the critical? Mind and body?

I have immediate feelings, when "Tutti Frutti" hits me...then I have a reaction, involving more intellectual thought...like, "I can't possibly like this, it's silly!" ...and so it goes, the push and pull within oneself...

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 01/07/10 07:00 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#785344 - 01/07/10 07:06 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,817
Kolstad Offline
Top 100 Poster
Kolstad  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,817
Denmark
"Do not some of us perceive the "romance of Art" to be a DIALOGUE between the visceral, and the critical? Mind and body?"

I think certainly so, many do. Intellectually, I do not favour the Descartian dualism between mind/body, and therefore don't think such a dialogue is at all possible.

But I do belive in intuition, and that's why I like Samuels post so much, as I believe the 'good' is somewhere between human emotion and the 'invisible universe' :-)

So, to scrap the details, I belive in some kind of dialogue, but tend to disregard the efforts of the mind.

I get a similar sensation as the one you describe, when listening to 'Tutti Frutti', and I get the reaction too, but despise it wink

Now don't insinuate that Im thinking with my holmes - Im happily married laugh

#785348 - 01/07/10 07:11 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
JPF Mentor
Mike Dunbar  Offline
JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Doesn't the critic, by nature, "enjoy" listening critically, and so, see trees too?

I don't know if they all do, the ones I like probably do.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#785351 - 01/07/10 07:13 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Kolstad]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,108
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,108
California
Originally Posted by the songcabinet
"Do not some of us perceive the "romance of Art" to be a DIALOGUE between the visceral, and the critical? Mind and body?"

I think certainly so, many do. Intellectually, I do not favour the Descartian dualism between mind/body, and therefore don't think such a dialogue is at all possible.

But I do belive in intuition, and that's why I like Samuels post so much, as I believe the 'good' is somewhere between human emotion and the 'invisible universe' :-)

So, to scrap the details, I belive in some kind of dialogue, but tend to disregard the efforts of the mind.

I get a similar sensation as the one you describe, when listening to 'Tutti Frutti' laugh


I think the minds job, the "critical" element, is an important part of evolution, and growth in general, and cannot be discounted, without also discounting the "good" of evolution.

So if my body "grooves" to "Tutti Frutti" --but my mind balks, I will need to work this out, inside...neither my body or mind are "right" --they are in dialogue...I may want to be more "evolved" but my butt wants to boogie!

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 01/07/10 07:14 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#785353 - 01/07/10 07:14 PM Re: What makes a song good? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 9,649
Two Singers Offline
Two Singers  Offline

Top 20 Poster

Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 9,649
Northern Alabama
Obviously everyone has a different opinion on what makes a song great. Each individual has his/her own criteria for what is or isn't a great song. I doubt we will ever get a huge majority to agree that any particular song is great. Although Vikki listed a few that might come close, if not already true. She's a pretty smart (pretty and smart, as well) cookie when it comes to music!

I think that's great! I'm glad we cannot agree in huge numbers. If so, everything would start sounding, more or less, the same, don'tcha think? That would be okay with the folks who think that a particular song is great. But the rest of the listening population would be left out in the cold. I am thoroughly delighted some folks intensely dislike some of the music I really like and that they like a lot of the music that I don't like. But, the music I don't like is a relatively small sample from the overall product. The varying likes and dislikes keep music interesting and moving in new directions. And, in my opinion, that is good for music as a craft and art.

Let's continue to disagree!

Alan

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Support Just Plain Folks

We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.


Newest Members
Cherilyn Bacon, Scott Martin, Bill Emery, Andrea Lim 199320, PerformanceManagemen
21320 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums116
Topics121,403
Posts1,141,947
Members21,320
Average Posts Daily25
Most Online37,523
Jan 25th, 2020
Just Plain Quotes
"The worth of your career to others is directly proportionate to the amount of importance you put into making contacts, nurturing leads and building real interpersonal relationships with those you hope will help you." -Brian Austin Whitney
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Popular Topics(Views)
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0