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#785258 01/07/10 04:29 PM
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We get a continuous stream of threads that ask what makes songs popular, what makes them hits, why good songs don't become hits and so on. To me, the question boils down to this:

What makes a song good?

Can we agree on this?

Can we agree on one particular song being "good?"

If so or if not, does that tell us anything?

All the Best,
Mike


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

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To be honest, it takes a measure of commonality...., meaning that a lyric and the translation/interpretation of that lyric by music needs to be something that all of us listeners can relate to.
"I've been there, that song is about me!"


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Originally Posted by Mike Dunbar

What makes a song good?

Can we agree on this?


I highly doubt it. No joke, either. And it tells me plenty...I read it this way: people who post opinions here all have something in common--we're looking at songs from a different, more intimate perspective than the majority of music consumers. We either write them, perform them, aspire to do so, or have a keen insider's interest in songcraft. Most music consumers aren't concerned with some of the weird stuff we fret about, such as rhyming heart with start. They just like it or don't.

Our interpretation of that "good" question is usually very personal and subjective...so much so that we often cannot understand the value of hits that annoy us. We assume it's all poop, cranked out by hacks and approved by powerful boards of directors. Not so.

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I'll chime in -

1. It has to fit a musical pattern that makes sense to our ears - chords that go together in a fashion similar to what we like and probably similar to what we grew up with. That's why we still like I, IV, V songs. Mostly derivative - not too avant-garde. And with a resolution at the end of the chorus.

2. Like Sam said, It has to grab us emotionally in some way - happy, sad, love story, funny, whatever - but something.

3 Needs a beat or rhythm that moves you - makes you dance or tap your foot or lay down for a nap, but something that is fairly predictable.

4. Needs a hook that you can sing along with (vocal) or hum along with (instrumental). Repetitive enough to sink in one's brain.

5. Needs a good sound that appeals. Pleasant or striking voice, instrument, overall production.

Colin


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"Good" is such a subjective thing. Some folks might think a song is good and others can't stand it. I don't think we can use "hits" and "good" as synonyms either. I can think of many of todays hits that older folks don't like. That statement was as true in the '60's as it is now. smile

So all hits aren't good and all good songs aren't hits.

Not sure the question can be answered without an objective definition of what "good" is. Something like "95% of those who listen to it really like it". smile

To reach this level, I think a few things would be essential:

(1) A melody that gets into your mind right away and stays there

(2) A lyric that is universal.

(3) Prosody between the two.....

The best example in my mind is "Yesterday".

Scott



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Originally Posted by Sam Wilson
To be honest, it takes a measure of commonality...., meaning that a lyric and the translation/interpretation of that lyric by music needs to be something that all of us listeners can relate to.
"I've been there, that song is about me!"


Ditto ! In a nutshell.

cheers, niteshift

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Originally Posted by Sam Wilson
To be honest, it takes a measure of commonality...., meaning that a lyric and the translation/interpretation of that lyric by music needs to be something that all of us listeners can relate to.
"I've been there, that song is about me!"


Good insight. Some questions along these lines.

Is there such thing as a universal song that everyone relates to?

Could there be a "bad" song that a lot of listeners relate to?

Wouldn't that make all very popular songs "good?"

Last edited by Mike Dunbar; 01/07/10 05:07 PM.

You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
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Originally Posted by Scott Campbell

The best example in my mind is "Yesterday".

Scott


But the Beatles aren't universally loved, or even thought of as "good":

http://www.areddy.net/beatles_suck/default.asp?page=faq



You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

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A bad song? That would require a whole different thread due to the sheer volume of opinions, wouldn't it?

A universal song? Is the term "universal" supposed to apply to each and every one of us? As a societal whole?

But....., our uniqueness and singularity is where the fun is.
If there is a universal song anywhere, I'd love to hear it, but my vote goes to the concept of everyone's take on life being at least somewhat separate.....as opposed to all of us being of the same mind.

As a writer, I do indeed wonder about these very same questions, but to simply define my own work as good or bad isn't important, I just put it across like I see it.


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I agree. Does that then make it impossible to name a song universally "good" based on everyone or anyone liking it?


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

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I think so.

By the way, Mozart sucks. So do all those plants that like it.

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The clear and concise defintion of "good" or "bad" isn't just sitting there patiently awaiting discovery, that is, unless I've been lied to all this time.

Billboard may disagree with me, but then isn't their word based solely on statistical data?

I've been writing lyrics for a long time, I've met a million writers, some were in successful bands, some were just like us...submitting online seeking the opinions of kindred spirits, but EVERYONE?

That's a hard one to pin down.


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Originally Posted by niteshift
Originally Posted by Sam Wilson
To be honest, it takes a measure of commonality...., meaning that a lyric and the translation/interpretation of that lyric by music needs to be something that all of us listeners can relate to.
"I've been there, that song is about me!"


Ditto ! In a nutshell.

cheers, niteshift


I agree ..
already said, "Good" is subjective .. but i think a 'good' start is that "universal" subject .. the emotion and/or the experience being described is one that most listeners will relate to or understanding because they've been there before or knows someone who has .. the song now becomes 'personal' to the listener.

A "good" start smile

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So, could you, any of you, call a song you don't like "good" based on popularity? I mean, since it has a broad appeal to people?


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

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Yes, most definitly, but with the proviso it is musically acceptable to musicians.

i.e. popular, and musically "correct"

cheers, niteshift

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I will say this, there's not another crowd anywhere that I would want to ask this same question to......and hear their answers...
That means, we writers are the ones who would know, we work at creating songs, it is indeed personal for us.....we don't just listen or just dance to whatever is playing at the time.

However, the question of popularity can be addressed by inquiring as to why country music, which used to be so serious with lyrical content being tangible and reaching so deep within, but now is all bubble gum......with Taylor Swift singin' about teenage infatuation......whatever happened to Loretta Lynn and the real live heartbreak?


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Originally Posted by Sam Wilson
To be honest, it takes a measure of commonality...., meaning that a lyric and the translation/interpretation of that lyric by music needs to be something that all of us listeners can relate to.
"I've been there, that song is about me!"


A good song does not have to have intelligible lyrics. Brown Sugar by the Stones for instance - nobody can understand the lyrics except the hook. Frère Jacques which you probably learned as a kid in French without understanding them....

Frère Jacques, frère Jacques,
Dormez-vous? Dormez-vous?
Sonnez les matines! Sonnez les matines!
Din, dan, don. Din, dan, don.




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Originally Posted by Mike Dunbar
We get a continuous stream of threads that ask what makes songs popular, what makes them hits, why good songs don't become hits and so on. To me, the question boils down to this:

What makes a song good?

Can we agree on this?

Can we agree on one particular song being "good?"

If so or if not, does that tell us anything?

All the Best,
Mike


A song can be good and not a hit (Unchained Melody for instance, or nameless masterpieces sang at the Bluebird Cafe for that matter).

A song can be a hit and not be good (Do we really need an example here -how about currently Ke$ha's "Tic Toc")

A song can be popular and not a hit (Happy Birthday never climbed the charts did it?)

But a song cannot be a hit and not popular mainly because of semantics- popularity follows a "hit"

So clearly a good song could (and has) existed when nobody but a handful of people ever heard it. I used to think a great song would always be discovered but I know better now.

Now I named Unchained Melody as a good song because I like it and anyone who has ever discussed it with me like it. I guess you could find someone who thinks it is a terrible song but could they convincingly make their argument? I doubt they could anymore than I could make mine that it is a good song.

Still instinctively I believe that there is a difference in song quality that can be measured by more than a just a point of view. But, unfortunately I can't define it objectively. It is akin to trying to justify that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior to a non believer. I just stand there stuttering incredulous that this "non believer" can't understand that McBride's "Anyway" is better than Janice Jackson's "Nasty"

But McBride says it pretty well:

You can pour your soul out singing a song you believe in
that tomorrow they’ll forget you every sang
sing it anyway


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Nite,

What is "correct" musically? In tune and on time? Beyond that, what is "correct?"

Sam,

What makes Loretta Lynn's songs real and Taylor Swift's not?


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I was watching a show earlier today that was about womens' contributions to country music, and all of the sh*t that they had to go through over all the years......

Loretta Lynn was saying that she lived through the situations that she wrote and sang about........
I wonder if Taylor Swift lived through her own songs, because nowadays, it's not the artist who writes the lyric, it's somebody on Music Row.

Gettin' back to the accessibility issue, that's it.....songs are about real life, but it just doesn't pull at you anymore these days, y'know?


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Originally Posted by Mike Dunbar
Nite,

What is "correct" musically? In tune and on time? Beyond that, what is "correct?"


Yeah, about that's it. Apart from that, go and be creative.

cheers, niteshift

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Originally Posted by Mike Dunbar
So, could you, any of you, call a song you don't like "good" based on popularity? I mean, since it has a broad appeal to people?


I will still occasionally slag a song based upon my personal taste, but I no longer look at a hit song I dislike and find no good in it. It comes down to a basic respect for humanity--whenever I hear words like "sheeple" or "masses", I feel the writer is condemning broad swaths of people for not sharing the "correct" notion of quality. As in, "they feed this Britney Spears crap to the masses who eat it up like sheeple".

Meanwhile, a teenager is listening to one of her singles in awe, loving the production, the performance, the songwriting, the audacity.

I prefer to stand behind that feeling then the one that condemns it, and I also stand behind the people who know how to make something that millions genuinely enjoy...rather than have shoved down their throats.

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Originally Posted by Mike Dunbar
Originally Posted by Scott Campbell

The best example in my mind is "Yesterday".

Scott


But the Beatles aren't universally loved, or even thought of as "good":

http://www.areddy.net/beatles_suck/default.asp?page=faq



Agreed - that's why you need statistics. grin

If the argument is that something as mundane as statistics shouldn't be applied to art, I might agree - but you can't define "good" objectively without them.

I'm inlined to go with 95% confidence, which is what most folks use in statistical tests.

I think Yesterday would pass that test. smile

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I like Taylor Swift and I think she is an original judging by here hit "Our Song". It was quirking and fresh and it delighted me just like my own kids do when they say something original and I recognize that they have the "spark of Life" in them. Without dragging everything into theological discussion, I think there is an everlasting fountain of Life that flows in abundance through all of us but it is most apparent in young people. "Our Song" sprang from that fountain.

Maybe that is the answer, maybe good songs all spring from the fountain of Life and all the bad ones are just pretenders.



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Originally Posted by Sam Wilson

Loretta Lynn was saying that she lived through the situations that she wrote and sang about........
I wonder if Taylor Swift lived through her own songs, because nowadays, it's not the artist who writes the lyric, it's somebody on Music Row.


Yeah, I think she does. She writes mostly her own stuff about her own young life...I think that's why she is so popular--what she says resonates with her listeners.

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Mike D,

As long as people are free to dislike something, simply because everybody else likes it, then NO, "WE" cannot agree...

We can come close, though. There are certain things that humankind can find universally appealing, and certain things we can "know" are good, without actually liking them.

But this all leads to the irony, in that songs that are nearly universal are oft times not very "good" --though popular, and I think it's because critics are part of the human race, and need to be included in any definition of (who decides) what makes something "universally appealing."

Conversely...right now I am again watching the movie "Wings of Desire" (a favorite of mine)--which gets a 97% on the 'Tomatometer' so nearly all the "critics" love it...but this movie would be met with much indifference by the general public, as it is German, and has no strong narrative...

Mike D, you ask questions that at best can lead to an interesting discussion, and that's about all we can do, as a "WE" ...agree to disagree, and find a commonality in that. smile

Mike



Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 01/07/10 07:06 PM.

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Originally Posted by Samuel (joe) Harris
I like Taylor Swift and I think she is an original judging by here hit "Our Song". It was quirking and fresh and it delighted me just like my own kids do when they say something original and I recognize that they have the "spark of Life" in them. Without dragging everything into theological discussion, I think there is an everlasting fountain of Life that flows in abundance through all of us but it is most apparent in young people. "Our Song" sprang from that fountain.

Maybe that is the answer, maybe good songs all spring from the fountain of Life and all the bad ones are just pretenders.



So, Taylor Swift is not a pretender but Ke Sha is?


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Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman
Originally Posted by Sam Wilson

Loretta Lynn was saying that she lived through the situations that she wrote and sang about........
I wonder if Taylor Swift lived through her own songs, because nowadays, it's not the artist who writes the lyric, it's somebody on Music Row.


Yeah, I think she does. She writes mostly her own stuff about her own young life...I think that's why she is so popular--what she says resonates with her listeners.


I guess I should have asked about that first, but it seems like no one ever writes their own lyrics anymore.....

"Meanwhile, a teenager is listening to one of her singles in awe, loving the production, the performance, the songwriting, the audacity."

So, it's the craft itself, as opposed to the content (and the origin/evolution of said content) that counts toward the appeal of one song over another?


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Originally Posted by Sam Wilson

So, it's the craft itself, as opposed to the content (and the origin/evolution of said content) that counts toward the appeal of one song over another?


Is that what you think?


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

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Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski


But this all leads to the irony, in that songs that are nearly universal are oft times not very "good" --though popular,




Not "good" how? Can you name a few?


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Originally Posted by Mike Dunbar
Is that what you think?


I think he thinks that's what I think...but I don't think. Hurts my brainhole.

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I'm asking, just like you are........

Ultimately, it's all of the individual elements that contribute equally in the creation process that culminate in a completed song.......

But, the question was about what constitutes popularity, and to some young kid just listening to the radio in his/her bedroom, it's not the individual elements of the song that appeals, it's the finished piece, right?


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The question is, what makes a song good? Some folks say it's popularity. Some say the complexity or theme of the lyrics. Some say it is a comparison with other songs that they think are good. Some say the beat. Some say the video.

Now, I know what I like, and I think what I like is good. I'm interested in seeing if any of us can agree on what it is that makes a song good, and, if not, what does that mean?


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Originally Posted by Mike Dunbar
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
[color:#000000]

But this all leads to the irony, in that songs that are nearly universal are oft times not very "good" --though popular,




Not "good" how? Can you name a few?



Generally, I am thinking of things that sell in mass quantities that critics hate. These things are by no means universally appealing, but if we have to deal with absolutes, any argument is pointless.

I would rather argue about universals like the octave, and the fifth, and a narrative of some kind. One needs to look for common things between all cultures, and then such notions and "good" or "bad" fall by the wayside, because how can the interval of a fifth be "good" ? Why is telling a story, better than "stream-of-consciousness" ? They aren't...they just "are" ...and they just "are" in far greater numbers...[/color]

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 01/07/10 07:28 PM.

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We can argue about octaves or the fifth at the theory forum. Actually, I'm not looking for arguments, just clarifications.

So, to all of you, is it critics who define "good?"


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

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Critics can be considered "mentors of the good" --but no, not necessarily "definers" of what is good. They just make it their business to start the conversation. It is up to everyone else to care enough to have their own opinions.

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 01/07/10 07:35 PM.

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I think we all define it for ourselves, which is why no one is pinning it down.


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Good/bad are judgements of value. To establish a common ground for that, we need to agree upon a value system of some kind. Those who can do that, can be included in the group of those who 'judges'.

It seems like a reasonable question, having in mind that a&r people are supposed to be 'professionals' in the music industry (we have discussed that one before, as I recall). So they must have criteria to value good and bad.. and there are quite a lot of scientific research that are used to ground hit song criteria in, especially for markers like 'coherence', 'memorability', 'contrast', 'loudness' ect. But the research never seems to capture the values we hear as 'soul', and the family of related concepts we associate with 'good' music.

Most of all good/bad is known as 'empty signifyers', meaning that these words are empty (of meaning/content) untill someone use them to signify something they prefer. Thought of that way, good/bad are not just 'subjective', but deeply political (intrest based) judgements.

In a weak moment, I could agree on a meaning of 'good' along the lines of "well crafted songs", but then we'll have to discuss well crafted for what? Songs can be made for many uses like listening, charts, movies, sports, sales, art, therapy etc., so then the discussion just moves out to broader categories like 'genre' and 'function'. And there we start all over again..

The way we tend to deal with these questions, is to be more and more abstract, like Samuel (joe) Harris. It's not just to avoid the probelm in question, as there's a great value in abstractions - they can really unify us, when meaning is so open and including, that we all cannot but agree.

So, I'll buy the "there is an everlasting fountain of Life that flows in abundance through all of us". That rings true enough to me, and to me it feels like if songs express or display some kind of "spark of life", it's "good".

Theology, thank you!

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Yeah, I think critics, at their best, can challenge us to analyze ourselves. Also, they, along with teachers, can help us listen with intent, but I'm not sure if listening very critically doesn't often cause us to miss the forest for the trees.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

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Well, I like "Tutti Frutti" a lot. I think it is a very "good" song. Who agrees? Why?


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

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Originally Posted by Mike Dunbar
Yeah, I think critics, at their best, can challenge us to analyze ourselves. Also, they, along with teachers, can help us listen with intent, but I'm not sure if listening very critically doesn't often cause us to miss the forest for the trees.


Ah! It's good to see you jump out of the role of "Socrates" for a minute, and have an opinion, yourself! smile

Then let me wax Socratic for a moment and ask you, Mike D, how does one come to listen critically, and not for (potential) enjoyment? Is it something that one does unbeknownst to oneself? Doesn't the critic, by nature, "enjoy" listening critically, and so, see trees too?

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 01/07/10 07:48 PM.

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Originally Posted by Mike Dunbar
We get a continuous stream of threads that ask what makes songs popular, what makes them hits, why good songs don't become hits and so on. To me, the question boils down to this:

What makes a song good?

Can we agree on this?

Can we agree on one particular song being "good?"

If so or if not, does that tell us anything?

All the Best,
Mike


A song is "good" if it touches me, moves me, creates a response in me, to the music & words. It's also "good" if I can remember it.

I find that most people like Amazing Grace, and most people like Silent Night. When we play You Are My Sunshine, most people sing along. Walk the Line, too.

What's "good" IMO may not be "good" in someone else's opinion, but IMO they are wrong grin


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Foot,
you asked if we can agree on one particular song being good.

personally I think Joanne's "Walking on Sacred Ground" is GREAT but there are many people who cannot relate to it.

does anyone/everyone think "Margaritaville" is a good song?

Actually identifying a few universal gems would be productive. Only then can we determine why.

John



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I think 'the critic' has been dead philosophically for some years now. The reason is that a critic is really not adding anything to the actual work of art he/she critisises. It's not even a subtext, criticisms are basically always a whole new text, fundamentally detached from the object thats critisised.

To many, that has made criticism irrelevant as a means to judge good/bad art. Of course critisism in the context of learning a craft, like writing songs, or HIT songs (which I think is different), is more like mentoring and forming, and therefor can be very useful, allthough not at all 'apolitical'.

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On the 'opinion' side (everything is..), I love a song like "I take a lot of pride in what I am" written by Jack Greene. I think it's good, anybody else? :-)

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Originally Posted by the songcabinet
I think 'the critic' has been dead philosophically for some years now. The reason is that a critic is really not adding anything to the actual work of art he/she critisises. It's not even a subtext, criticisms are basically always a whole new text, fundamentally detached from the object thats critisised.

To many, that has made criticism irrelevant as a means to judge good/bad art. Of course critisism in the context of learning a craft, like writing songs, or HIT songs (which I think is different), is more like mentoring and forming, and therefor can be very useful, allthough not at all 'apolitical'.


Magne, you are thinking of "critic" in the narrow sense, where Deconstructionists made some valid points. I am looking at the critical element in each of our psyches', which is not as detatchable! laugh Do not some of us perceive the "romance of Art" to be a DIALOGUE between the visceral, and the critical? Mind and body?

I have immediate feelings, when "Tutti Frutti" hits me...then I have a reaction, involving more intellectual thought...like, "I can't possibly like this, it's silly!" ...and so it goes, the push and pull within oneself...

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 01/07/10 08:00 PM.

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"Do not some of us perceive the "romance of Art" to be a DIALOGUE between the visceral, and the critical? Mind and body?"

I think certainly so, many do. Intellectually, I do not favour the Descartian dualism between mind/body, and therefore don't think such a dialogue is at all possible.

But I do belive in intuition, and that's why I like Samuels post so much, as I believe the 'good' is somewhere between human emotion and the 'invisible universe' :-)

So, to scrap the details, I belive in some kind of dialogue, but tend to disregard the efforts of the mind.

I get a similar sensation as the one you describe, when listening to 'Tutti Frutti', and I get the reaction too, but despise it wink

Now don't insinuate that Im thinking with my holmes - Im happily married laugh

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Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Doesn't the critic, by nature, "enjoy" listening critically, and so, see trees too?

I don't know if they all do, the ones I like probably do.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

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Originally Posted by the songcabinet
"Do not some of us perceive the "romance of Art" to be a DIALOGUE between the visceral, and the critical? Mind and body?"

I think certainly so, many do. Intellectually, I do not favour the Descartian dualism between mind/body, and therefore don't think such a dialogue is at all possible.

But I do belive in intuition, and that's why I like Samuels post so much, as I believe the 'good' is somewhere between human emotion and the 'invisible universe' :-)

So, to scrap the details, I belive in some kind of dialogue, but tend to disregard the efforts of the mind.

I get a similar sensation as the one you describe, when listening to 'Tutti Frutti' laugh


I think the minds job, the "critical" element, is an important part of evolution, and growth in general, and cannot be discounted, without also discounting the "good" of evolution.

So if my body "grooves" to "Tutti Frutti" --but my mind balks, I will need to work this out, inside...neither my body or mind are "right" --they are in dialogue...I may want to be more "evolved" but my butt wants to boogie!

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 01/07/10 08:14 PM.

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Obviously everyone has a different opinion on what makes a song great. Each individual has his/her own criteria for what is or isn't a great song. I doubt we will ever get a huge majority to agree that any particular song is great. Although Vikki listed a few that might come close, if not already true. She's a pretty smart (pretty and smart, as well) cookie when it comes to music!

I think that's great! I'm glad we cannot agree in huge numbers. If so, everything would start sounding, more or less, the same, don'tcha think? That would be okay with the folks who think that a particular song is great. But the rest of the listening population would be left out in the cold. I am thoroughly delighted some folks intensely dislike some of the music I really like and that they like a lot of the music that I don't like. But, the music I don't like is a relatively small sample from the overall product. The varying likes and dislikes keep music interesting and moving in new directions. And, in my opinion, that is good for music as a craft and art.

Let's continue to disagree!

Alan

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