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Hi

This is an appeal to lyricists. I have already written songs with a good many people here and I regularly scour the lyrics for a potential collaboration. I admit my own deficiencies as a lyricist that’s why I often look for inspiration from a lyricist collaborator. When I look down the lyric boards I tend to dip in to the ones where the title catches my eye (who wouldn’t?). Yet, the sad fact is that very few titles catch my eye (maybe I am too fussy but I don’t think so). Many of the titles are mundane and imaginative with no hook potential. I am reluctant to name any specific lyrics but a good 50% of the titles are not song-like, catchy or interesting to me.

So please, get funny, get sexy, get outrageous, get cheeky, get clever, get trashy but above all get interesting! This is what a hook is all about, getting attention and then battering the listener with it (in an enjoyable way of course ).

Here’s a selection of songs that are riding high in UK and US charts at the moment. There are a good few there that I would be tempted to dip into if they were titles on our lyric boards.

Oopsy Daisy
Forever Is Over
Empire State Of Mind
Sexy Chick
She Wolf
I Gotta Feeling
Paparazzi
Whatcha Say
Down
Fireflies
Party In The U.S.A.
You Belong With Me
3
Uprising
One Less Lonely Girl

As an exercise view the summary page of each of the lyric boards and see how many titles grab you.

I know that some of you will argue that the song is not necessarily all about the hook and sometimes that is true. But love it or hate it, in most cases it’s the hook that sells and will get folk interested.

One of the common mistakes I see is the writer tries to put too much info in the title (like a Philip K Dick novel ) , it’s almost as if you don’t need to read or hear the lyric, it’s all given away in the title!

There are some top writers on this board. So let’s have some great hooks and then exploit them.

I know you can do it!!

Nige

I'm old and jaded so titles rarely get me hooked anymore. Here's some great titles I've been jaded by: A Hard Day's Night, Seven Spanish Angels, and Little Man. I picked those because A Hard Days Night just sounds cool. Seven Spanish Angels was not what you thought it would be from the title. Little Man was not about a slightly built person with a Y chromosome. I like songs where the song is not what you expect from the title upon first hearing. Like the songs Behind Closed Doors and Mama He's Crazy, both written by Kenny O'Dell.

Of your titles, The most interesting ones to me are Paparazzi and Uprising. I would hope Paparazzi is not about a star being followed by photographers and Uprising is not about a riot or something.

The idea you offer about titles perking interest is a good one though. I think I'll try to check out the songs you mention.

Nigel.....I really try to "hook" people with the title, but I guess I need to try more! I agree with you on the titles being too long.


redwing

A good reminder, Nige. Sometimes one sees lyrics posted with no title in the subject line: just a request for review or a statement saying there's no title yet.

Donna

Yep, that's a good example, we get a few of those.

Great post Kevin......A title can catch an eye, it is an advert for the song and a calling card.....Think about the title it is as important as the rest of the lyrics.

I have a hard time recognizing what makes the hooks you list, more eyecatching than the ones we have on our three lyric boards right now?

Can't argue that hooks in titles are important, though. Still, music can make any hook interesting. Brad Paisleys "Then" is an example of an ordinary title, that is made into a KILLER hook by the music and the rest of the lyric.

So, more so I think the use of clever lines, without going overboard is a scarcity. It's way more important to be able to prove the title in a meaningful or clever way, than it is to have THE catchy hookline.

It doesn't hurt, of course. Im just saying..

This is a good moment to miss Skip Johnson.

I listed to about 4 of the songs. None of them impressed me much. Of the ones I listened to, Paparazzi was the most interesting--which doesn't mean I thought it was good.

Here's the current top 20 (ok top 19), how many of those would have jumped off the forum at you?
Kevin


19 "Love Your Love the Most" Eric Church
18 "Nightswimming/Joey" Sugarland
17 "Small Town USA" Justin Moore
16 "I Wanna Make You Close Your Eyes" Dierks Bentley
15 "Honky Tonk Stomp" Brooks & Dunn
14 "I'm Alive" Kenny Chesney
13 "Didn't You Know How Much I Loved You" Kellie Pickler
12 "Summer Nights" Rascal Flatts
11 "Consider Me Gone" Reba McEntire
10 "Welcome to the Future" Brad Paisley
09 "Living for the Night" George Strait
08 "Cowboy Casanova" Carrie Underwood
07 "Do I" Luke Bryan
06 "Gettin' You Home" Chris Young_CMT
05 "Toes" Zac Brown Band
04 "Only You Can Love Me This Way" Keith Urban
03 "Need You Now" Lady Antebellum
02 "Big Green Tractor" Jason Aldean
01 "American Ride"

"The Ballad of Reuben Clamzo and His Strange Daughter In The Key of A".--Arlo Gutherie--
I swear that's the title!

Well "Big Green Tractor" sounds interesting.... any relation to "Big Yellow Taxi"?....but I am a sucker for machinery......as for the rest, nothing really jumps out and captures my attention or imagination. That does not mean they are bad songs just they are lacking great titles.

That said once you hit the real big time you can call your song anything you want and it will still sell. As for us pondlife....well we have to use every trick we can to grab attention. LOL

Nothing wrong with one word titles – I love ‘em and would probably have a read if I saw one on JPF. And yes of course the music makes a difference, but for the purposes of this thread try thinking of a lyric as an interesting piece of wood that a carver would like to work with.

I think you missed the word ‘country’ out somewhere ! ‘Big Green Tractor’ would fit snugly on our lyric boards.

Please don’t misunderstand me. I’m not saying the title/hook has to be unusual. I am just a likely to read a lyric called ‘Do You?’ or ‘Would You?’ - Something short but with potential.

I think you are missing my point, I haven't got to the whether the songs are any good or not stage. Just that is there enough to pull you in, or dare I say hook you?

These just happened to be what is current, I’m not holding them up as shining examples, just trying to get lyricists thinking about the importance of titles are to a potential collaborator.

Yep and so is “Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Cave and Grooving with a Pict” by Pink Floyd

Big Jim nails it! -Yes, the songs that are best studied are the 'breakthrough' songs, and not so much songs by established artists.

Cool thread Nigel...

My music teacher had a fun hook that I was never sure actually was a real song or not.

Always thought it amusing though.

"Who Put The Overalls In Mrs Murphy's Chowder"

Could be a fun write....lol

Larry

<Nigel plays piano>

Marty: It's pretty.

Nigel: Yeah, I like it, just been fooling about with it for a few
months now, very delicate...

Marty: It's a, it's a bit of a departure from the kind of thing
you normally play.

Nigel: Yeah, it's part of a...trilogy really, a musical trilogy
I'm doing... in... D minor, which I always find is really
the saddest of all keys really. I don't know why, but it
makes people weep instantly, you play a..baaaaa...baaaaaa
it's a horn part.

Marty: It's very pretty.

Nigel: ...baaaa, baaaaa, yeah, just simple lines intertwining,
you know very much like, I'm really influenced by Mozart
and Bach, it's sort of in between those, really, it's
like a Mach piece really, it's...

Marty: What do you call this?

Nigel: Well, this piece is called "Lick My Love Pump".

Marty: Hmm.

(Spinal Tap Excerpt)

That is all very well Michael but what number does your guitar amp go up to? LOL

Howdy gus here. I'm going out on a limb & offering up a
definition of a hook. for us to dissect etc.
A hook is a phrase, that says as many things as possible,
to as many people as possible, in as few words as possible ,
in a clever fashion. This should be fun...TTYS...Gus

So I had some fun, and Nigel, I hope you took no offense, but I did post the 'Spinal Tap' scene, cuz it makes my point for me, which is that having a catchy hook works with certain types of songs, and not others, and should usually be the key phrase in a lyric, or at least a unique one, or one that pops out at you, and sometimes the key phrase in a song is NOT flashy or clever, and sometimes, it shouldn't be.

Catchy hooks are less important, and sometimes can demean a serious song, or even a song that places more emphasis on emotional content than "clever."

So, just a little reality check from me..,you look at "pulp fiction" and all you see are flashy titles, but inside a vast wasteland...whereas "Of Mice and Men" or "A Tale of Two Cities" don't exactly jump out at you...

Mike

When I say clever, I mean it as opposed to, in a boring fashion.
It also seems to me, that the names of rodeo rough stock,
are a good study, because they are basically, 1 & 2 word hooks.
anyone else ever notice that....Gus

Has anyone seen my hooks? I can't seem to find them anywhere. I know they were just here a minute ago....
Kurt

I allus look at a hook as being like a Doorway...IF It's Attractive..and Gets the Listener INTO the thing, it's Mission's Accomplished. BUT..a Hook's only ONE Part of the entire Song Structure...(And..can get pretty Cloy-some if it's not Skillfully Manipulated...JMO.)

LESS is often MORE...and for me, the only Hook ya had in that last list that I'd wanna Explore-Further is "Toes". I'm VERY fond of NEW One-Word Hooks..and that one's sure diffo! (It's still gonna have to have a GOOD Melody & Singing & Plotline/Outcome to it when I DO hear it...or it's a one-shot kinda thing.)

A Good Hook is also kinda like a HANDLE...so when ya go to buy that Download/CD/whatever..you can RECALL it & Buy the Song.

A Personal Fave: Shel Silverstein's "A Boy Named Sue". Faves of my own this year: "Plan 'B'" and "You Need More Sex".

& yep, I do miss Rev Skip's annual List of Hooks-Available...he's a Master at finding the Memorable Word Combos...& then finding New Homes for 'em!

Back to the Day Job...where I often Overhear "The Next Big Hook"
in-conversation.

Nice Thread Nigel...Good Luck with Hookier-Hooks, Amigo!
Best Wishes,
Stan

On Kevins list of the current top 20 country chart, several stands out to me:

"Honky Tonk Stomp"
"Small Town USA"
"I Wanna Make You Close Your Eyes"
"Welcome to the Future"
"Cowboy Casanova"
"Big Green Tractor"
"American Ride"

These are all great hooks to me.

Other songs are not about the clever title hook, but about being REAL (in country at least).

Country are great examples to use, because it's so lyric driven. It's the only genre where songwriters are dwelling longer with their pen than their guitar :-) It's the port to eden, if you care about lyrics.

Most other genres, except r&b, you can just throw dice with the vocabulary while jammin on grooves and wing your stuff.. so it doesn't make sense looking hard for lyrical hooks outside of the lyric driven genres IMO

Going fishing, Kurt? LOL

I agree that country music is lyric driven and that some country songwriters dwell too much on lyrics and forget about the music aspect. Some use the same old tired tunes and chord progressions. I however disagree with your statement about most other genrers throwing dice and winging it with the vocabulary. Other genres including Rock, folk and blues have some pretty good lyrics with the music to match. Some tell stories, make political or social statements, paint mental pictures or are just plain fun songs. If you want some examples of pretty good lyrics from the Rock or pop genre past and present I can supply loads. Country does not have the monopoly on beig real in fact I find a lot of country lyrics, one dimensional, cheesy and fake. A lot of country songs are produced using the same old template Nashville insists on using.
To appreciate the craft of great songwriting we have to be eclectic explore and consider the talents of many styles,eras, genres and writers.

KevinP, interesting list, especially with regard to # 08. It made me smile, reminding me that "there's nothing new under the sun".

Well over a year ago I wrote a lyric that I first titled "Country Casanova", then decided just to use the term in the outro and changed the title to "Gettin' Tight With Loose Women".
(Not that it's made much difference in the scheme of things. )

Donna

Sure they have.. I listen broadly too, Jim. But I've been playing with many rock guys. They come up with a riff, then a chord progression, where complexity equals good, and they don't give a crap about structuring it for the listener.. all they care about is how long they get to practice their chops over it. And, I almost forgot.. then they say, "Hey we have a song, let me just jot down some quick lyrics for it".

Im sorry, but there just are no point in claiming that lyrics are an important part of rock culture in general. I can come up with a lot that has been more elaborated, sure, but lyrics just don't have that status with those guys. Rock is about getting the singer up front and act crazy, and have the big ego'ed musicians taking turns winging solos, thats it.

Don't get me wrong, I like that too sometimes, but to me there is no point in using those genres as examples of great lyric writing in a thread about great lyrical hooks.



I agree with that, and I believe that includes acknowledging what each genre is about and then bring out examples that hones the strengths and weaknesses of each genre, like we do here.

In rock the hooks are way more about instruments and soundpalette, I think. In country, there are no song if there are no lyrical hooks.

Im not saying any is better or worse, and that rock songs can't have great lyrics or country songs can't have great instrumental hooks. Im just saying the cultures (both the artists and audiences) of each genre appreciate things in a different order.

Thats why country is the genre to study first, looking for great lyrical hooks. Rock would be my preference looking for instrumental ones... well, no, jazz would.. but that's a different discussion

Of course I think things aren't that simple either, but for the purpose of discussion..

By the way, I love Mark Knopflers latest release "Get Lucky". He's gone in a more singer/songwriter direction where he really wants to write the great lyric.. I just love his laid back feel!

He has some great titles like:

Before Gas and Tv
The car was the one
Behind with the rent
Heart full of holes
You can't beat the house

I agree with what you say up to a point. You may be talking about SOME rock bands but not all fit the stereotype. Most of the rock guys I know are pretty gifted players and writers and they take care to produce the whole package, Lyrics, melody, performance and showmanship.

Here is one of my fav Rock songs by the British band Thunder. IMO this is a good illustration of neat hooks both instrumentsl asd lyrical and the craft of songwriting and of course great playing too. It has plenty light and shade nd delivers a great message.
You may want to take a listen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ojj2fDBDJDs
PS I wrote these from memory so apologies to Danny and Luke if I got them wrong.

Low Life In High Places
(Thunder)


Mama, tell your children not to go
Down to the city, where the desperate people go
And mama, don't let them stray
They won't find, peace of mind, in such a lonely place
Wannabes and losers, all trying to get a break
They don't give a damn, they'll do whatever it takes
If they climb the ladder, they get to play for higher stakes
That's why there's low life in high places

Mama, things have changed since you were young
When you scream, in the dead of night
Now no one ever comes
And a poor man, he's cast as the villan and a thief
See him down on the street, begging for enough to eat
Waiting on the corner, I saw her waiting for the man
When the limo pulled up I saw what was changing hands
I should've tried to warn her, and make her understand
There is low life in high places
There is low life, like you never even knew
There is low life, and it lives in me and you
But we don't all let it through
Don't let 'em go, you've got to have some pity
Don't you let 'em go
You've got to keep 'em away, from the big bad city
(SOLO)
Waiting on the corner, I saw her waiting for the man
When the limo pulled up I saw what was changing hands
I should've tried to warn her, and make her understand
Mama, tell your children not to go
Down to the city, where the desperate people go
And mama, don't you let them stray
They won't find, peace of mind in such a lonely place

That's a great positive example, Big Jim. Awesome lyrics! I think it proves both our points.

Thanks for that one!

None at all! - I love that film

Can I just clear something up here (or attempt to)? I know the hook is not the be all and end all of every song. However, this thread is about hooks and titles and every ‘Brown Sugar’ can be countered with a ‘Rene And Georgette Magritte With Their Dog After The War’. I know that. But what I am talking about is good hooks, hooks that inspire. If I said write a song called ‘Brown Sugar’, there is a myriad of places a good lyricist could take it. I’m talking about something that lingers, something that can be exploited, so it worms its way in and you can’t shake it off (so it could be either a bad smell or some kind of addictive drug )

And yes, I know a hook takes many forms, musical, rhythmical and lyrical, but let’s not confuse each-other by throwing too many randoms. I believe a lyrical hook is a good place to start.

Incidentally Stan, is one of the writers that clearly knows a good hook

Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far.

Hi Magne, There is plenty more where that came from....LOL
and just to show unbias I can give you a few country ones as well.

Ok Ok at the risk of having my kunckles rapped with the golden ruler (again) by Marc Burnette, here I go. I listed the top 20 country songs and said how many of these titles jump off the page at you? I think most of us correctly assumed I was being sarcastic and truthfully there isn't one song on that list that having heard once I wouldn't be changing the channel looking for something better to listen to I know I know My Opinion only. Now I'll jump one opinion farther, I think that if we could take twenty really good JPF songs and have them produced at the same level as the top twenty list and played them for a group of average listeners who had never heard the top tewnty artists
before and then vote on the twenty best out of fourty that we'd land more than a few on that list. Ok Marc get your crumugeon ruler out let's get this over with....lol

Kevin

Nigel,

I guess it all comes down to what goals one has as a songwriter.

Certainly, the "confessional" or personal writers among us enjoy a good hook now and then, but are more inclined NOT to write from the hook-out, but from a feeling, or an 'overall meaning' and then derive a hook that is fitting, and appropriate , and organic to the song.

The revolution of "song poetry" starts with Van Morrison and 'Astral weeks' in the late sixties, and (song poetry) is still a strong force in pop music, with perhaps Leonard Cohen and Joni Mitchell as grandparents of the genre. Certainly there is no strong hook in a song like "Suzanne" or "Woodstock"...but the songs themselves are dazzling writes, and have a lasting "timeless" quality, and will probably outlive many of their flashier hooked counterparts, because there is more substance within.

I guess all I am saying is, if you write your hooks first, back them up with great songs. I see lots of great hooks around here, but only occasionally, great songs, to back them up...Getting and having a great hook is easy...knowing what to do with it is a different story!

Most of us need to worry a little less about great hooks, but writing songs that mean something to us, songs that we as songwriters connect to, ourselves, and then I believe the hook takes care of itself, it is there, somewhere in our lyric, and need only be sussed out, and tended to.

Mike

Kevin I agree 100% I have been saying this for years (and also getting my knuckles wrapped) Mediocre acts and songs have taken over the music business. I know loads of people who on talent and ability deserve better. Just looking at the rubbish we see on TV and hear in the charts on a daily basis there are loads of top bill acts up there on false pretences some of whom are so untalented they should not even be performing in public.
No Doubt Marc will say they all deserve stardom tell us to stop moaning and continue to encourage us to swim upstream into a brick wall. Do not get me wrong I do not mind competition....I just hate having to fight single handed a team of prizefighters with my hands tied behind my back.

For me, as a pop songwriter (not Taylor Mills/Miley Cyrus/James Blunt pop, but more Beatles/Kinks pop), the hook is the thing. So I know where you're coming from. But the thing is, that hook doesn't have to come from a lyric... it can be a musical hook.

In fact, I have several songs that have a wordless chorus... but that I think still have a hook. Here's an example:
"Suckers"

Of course, you may argue that I am not a "successful" songwriter. And I have no retort for that. You're right. But I still find that my fans do hum that musical hook to themselves, as much as they repeat any lyrical phrase that I've written.

That said, I do have a lyric called "Hell Is a Place Called 'Me'" that I think is pretty hooky/evocative that still has no music. Harriet actually kindly picked it to highlight one week in her Mentor Forum:
http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/653900/page/1#Post653900

I need to finish that thing!!!

But the point is... you can make a hook out of anything, depending upon how you approach it.

Where’s banging my head against a brick wall emoticon?

ahh that will do

I’ll try again, if I started a thread saying “why aren’t there any comedy songs written here?” People are unlikely to be saying things like “Don’t forget there are other types of song too: love songs, dance songs, protest songs, song don’t have to be funny”. And of course I would agree but it is off-topic. But that’s what is happening here, in this thread.

At the risk of repeating myself I know there are many great songs that are not hook-laden, you are preaching to the converted. But this topic is about hooks (or the lack of them). If someone gave the argument that the business doesn’t want them anymore, I would listen, but current evidence suggests otherwise. So please no more “songs don’t need hooks” stuff – we know! The same as a song doesn’t need a guitar.

You may all have your own way of writing preferences etc but that is no reason to be blind toward what is bread and butter for a jobbing songwriter.

The real irony of this thread is that by far the majority of people it is directed at will not see it and just continue bashing out more of the same stuff that will never appeal to a musical collaborator. As I said in my opening sentence of this thread “This is an appeal to lyricists”

It reminds me of a particular Dilbert cartoon which I will share with you later

Nigel,



None of those titles you listed had much of a grab on me. If fact, "Empire State Of Mind" seems like a rip-off on "New York State of Mind", "Party in The USA" -- rip-off on "Born in the USA", etc....

My latest lyric has the title: "Best Damn Bad Hand a Man's Ever Had" -- that seems like a good title to me (LOL!).

Kevin

Contact me about that lyric that I mentioned before. I'm open for a collab. on it.
Send me a message.

Todd

Post deleted by Michael Zaneski

Hello,

Been away for a few days. Out on the road. Kevin, I heard you talking about me. The biggest thing you have to ask yourself when it comes to hooks are, "How can you get someone else to want to be involved with this song?" That can mean anyone outside the circles you travel in. That could be a co-writer, a publisher, a song plugger, an artist, or the general public. And with the industry, you are asking someone to put your song AHEAD of their own. So does the hook matter? Of course. It is all just upping the level of your odds.
An interesting title can go a long way to having recognition factor where someone will "hold on to it" (A Nashville term for playing it for someone higher up the chain of command) a little longer. And as always, the inside cut is going to rule.
Kevin, I am not going to have a "golden ruler" or any such thing. i am not here to defend an industry, as i see we have our usual "everything Nashville does sucks" contengient. I have quit responding to that at all. I simply comment one perspective on some of the comments made here. If that offends some, I am sorry. Not my intention.Just most people who are trying to get into an industry then complain about it or act like that industry rules everything, miss most of the points. Everybody out there right now or ever, was a nobody at some time. They swam upstream "one handed" just like everyone else. Until they found someone to take them along with them.
Every mainstream release and many independent releases, have a lot of money invested in them, and a LOt of people have to believe in them to even be released. So people who put their jobs and money on the line, are involved. So dissmissing them so quickly often doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me. That doesn't mean you have to emulate them, just means you accept them for what they are and do your own thing.

Been reading back over my "Beatles" book by Bob Spitz. I read that and a lot of biographys for historical perspective in the business. Many of the comments on pages like this sound like the industry and George Martin's comments on the Beatles. Superficials, songs that didn't interest him in the least. He was impressed by the personalities and worked with the rest.

On your lists of titles, a lot of time that doesn't say it all. sometimes the melodies, groove, etc. all trump everything which is why a lot of rock can get away with things you can't do in country. And yes, country does use more traditional chords and progressions, which is what the audience demands. So you either work with it or not. It is always your choice. And as always, Nashville is one market, not THE market. There is no THE market.
For Nashville, about 20 years ago, there were a lot of very "cutsey" titles. "If I said you had a beautiful Body would you Hold it Against me?" and "Looking for Love in All the Wrong places." come to mind. Then, as reality entered more and more into the dialogue, those faded as a way of being "too clever by half." In most of the other world, they do titles and songs we wouldn't do here and vice versa. In country in particular,being conversational is the key and most singers won't sing anything that makes them look silly, which is the answer to the question of why there are not more funny songs out there.
Again, 15 years ago, we had musical comedians like Ray Stevens, who were out there quite a bit. That changed as comedy lost it's footing with country radio and playlists, contracted. the same reasons the Beatles did more and more serious stuff and went from "Love me Do" to "Hey Jude." They grew up, and so did the format.

The current trend in country is to write titles about inanimate objects in an attempt to get people to question what that is about, and thereby tweak their interest in the subject. "Big Green Tractor" (Which is nothing like Big Yellow Taxi, but shows you how little things have changed in titles)
"Dixie Fried" and other's are about things in the singers lives usually that happen. Many come from smaller, rural areas, and will sing about that. Some won't. And some will go for the superficial. The music industry is ruled by one hit wonders and always will be.

As soon as anyone has all the answers I guess we won't need discussions like this. We'll all be doing fine. For the time being I would suggest you try and write about what you know, try to get and keep people interested and get things in as many avenues as you can. That is pretty much all you can do.

MAB

Nigel,

I think I am one of those ones that misread your post. I thought you were looking for a philosophical discussion on good titles, but it seems your are looking for lyrics so you can compose music to them? Is that the purpose here?

Kevin

Tampa Stan Good does come up with some great hooks. Here is one that I wrote music for. "Lets Play With DNA" You may want to check it out on the MP3 forum. Here is a link.
http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/759771/page/1#Post759771

Plug over LOL

Nigel,

I think perhaps you are misunderstanding me?

I am NOT saying songs don't need hooks, simply that "to each song it's own kinda hook" ...ergo the humor in the "lick my love pump" scene.

Clever songs need clever hooks, funny songs need funny hooks, emotional songs need emotional hooks. To hang a clever hook on an emotional song can hurt that song; some hooks don't jump out at us because the kind of song they are in demands subtlety.

So, to look at a list of song titles, and say "weak hooks" means very little really, for you may be looking at a group of songs where those hooks happen to be PERFECT for the actual songs that they are in!

I don't think you mean to make yourself the sole judge of what is a good hook and what is not. There are going to be gray areas where some of us disagree over the merit of some hooks.

And I'm sorry, but, there is still nothing worse than a great hook that is not backed up with a great song...it's like...wasted potential, you know?

I am sorry if my posts seemed "off topic" to you, but I disagree. They are certainly not inflammatory. They are adding to the discussion, as you originally presented it...and it is a civilized discussion, not a rant...although an "appeal" has all the earmarks of a rant, I took your "appeal" to invite an OPEN discussion.

Mike

You wouldn't take those words in your mouth, Mike..? Ok, I'll take'm then. Songs don't need hooks! Hooks need songs, blabber? I don't think so. Just focusing on hooks is a reductio ad absurdum.. hooks are nothing without a song to support them.

I keep listening to this Brooks & Dunn song "The long goodbye", and the title is kinda cliché, but because of one line I keep listening to it. Here's the chorus:

This is the long goodbye
Somebody tell me why
Two lovers in love can't make it
Just what kind of love keeps breaking a heart?
No matter how hard I try
You're gonna make me cry
Come on, baby, it's over, let's face it
All that's happening here is a long goodbye

Guess which line that's the big hook for me? It's no 4 "Just what kind of love keeps breaking a heart?" - I just fall flat on my face every time I hear that! There's just something about the way Ronnie Dunn sings that line..

Hooks are often not the intended lines, and what constitutes a hook for me, might be very different to you. It's what sounds meaningful to us in that particular moment of time and place.

So, I can't believe it.. it's mine, MIIIINE.. HAHAHAH

SONGS DON'T NEED HOOOOOOOKS!
Hooks need songs..

So...if we took all those top songs, and replaced them with JPF songs...would it be better?

I think it's professional suicide to start thinking that way.

-It minimizes the battle those songs went through to get there.
-It exaggerates the value of our songs that aren't being bought.
-It hints that public taste would change if the industry simply put out different material...when the industry is absolutely willing to release ANYTHING that will sell.
-It hints at a conspiracy to keep popular songs bad, when the truth is, people only buy what they like.

Just my opinion, but I believe it to be true.

As we have always said, hooks are also instrumental as well. Actually many hit songs have a number of them. If you were to take a song like Sweet Home Alabama, from the three chord intro, one of the most famous in history, you have lyrics that reached a lot of people, particularly in the South, where the band was from, but reached people all over the world.
The big singable chorus is another hook. Referencing artists like Neil Young, and political happenings like Watergate, places like Birmingham and Muscle Shoals, are all hooks that add to the song.
Hit songs are often like that. The guitar figure on "Something In the Way She Moves", the bass part on Pink Floyd's Money, the keyboard intro on "Old Time Rock and Roll" the cowbell and drum intro on "Honky Tonk Woman" by the Stones. As music has gotten more homaginized and less bands play, it is done more with lyrics now. But a "hook" is simply anything that assists a song to be memorable.

MAB

Yes, you are quite right, but it also serves as a guide to lyricists what a collaborating musician looks for. In this case it’s me, but I don’t think I am by any means alone in the way I think. Lyricists often ask “What can I do to get my lyrics chosen by a musician?” – I am giving my answer.

Michael – maybe I am misunderstanding you, but I am talking purely about lyrical hooks at the moment i.e. the thing that draws me in to read a lyric. I’m prepared to accept that there are some fantastic lyrics that I have missed because I wasn’t tempted to open the post because the title did not inspire me. At the risk of really hamming up the analogy, you won’t catch the right fish if you are using the wrong bait.

One of the problems when a lot of musos/songwriters get together is that we can argue the toss about anything. Many of us have an extensive knowledge of music and can counter most arguments. However, (and here’s the rub) we are a very small percentage of the music buying and listening public, we look deeper, we analyse more and are therefore not typical of those that do pay for and listen to music.

Recently we had a challenge here on JPF where lyrics were posted and the musicians picked them up. There was one lyric that (in my view) would have been picked 10 times over (if it could have been) and it’s my belief that it was purely because of the title. I hadn’t even read the lyric but I wanted it (not surprisingly I was too late – incidentally I picked something that pushed me well out of my comfort zone which I enjoyed immensely) Also I would wager that if you presented that same list of titles to Joe public they would pick out that title as the one they wanted to hear. Now of course all this is very subjective but I’m just trying to give an insight as to where I am coming from.

Now can we please have a group hug?

Hi Marc!

I agree wholeheartedly with you, but I think Nigel was wanting to limit the conversation to talking about hooks in song titles, and song titles, specifically, as the selling points for a song, and how for him, our titles weren't jumping out at him like his U K list.

I think one problem here is that in this day and age, there are few impulse purchases, based on a title someone likes.

Now perhaps in Nashville, or anywhere where one's song ends up in a pool of CD singles, an A & R guy who had 200 songs he's supposed to listen to, and only 6 hours to do it in...he will probably go for the catchier titles, so I can understand Nigel's argument as far as this goes.

Mike

Actually, it can make or break whether or not I'll click on a song that's available for a download purchase...

Yeah but Mark,

I am betting the choice was between two songs by the same artist?

...as in...you heard "the Divine Comedy" was good, and so you clicked on the "Casanova" album, and went for "Becoming More Like Alfie" because it referenced a song you already liked, and "Something For the Weekend" because it piqued your curiosity ...and perhaps passed on "Songs of Love" because it sounded pretty generic...

It turns "Songs of Love" is the big seller here, and their most requested song, and covered by Ben Folds Five, out here in the states...so one can never tell.

Just...honestly, you buy songs, regularly, by artists you have never heard, based on liking a title?

Mike