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Everett,

Actually the ones who make the impact are the quiet ones. If you have great music, you don't have to talk about it or brag. Music does it for them. The ones who talk the loudest are always the ones with the weakest songs and talents.

"Those who crow the loudest, have the least to crow about."

MAB

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Jim,

I guess what you are saying is that you know better than millions of other people. I just have to question your involvement in the power centers of the music industry. The reason is things that you say that have no relation to reality.

Simon Cowell has very good instincts and is where he is because of that. Taylor Swift is doing things that every one else is trying to do and doing it better than they are, and yes it includes the writing. To do that in a town of writers is amazing. And there are MILLIONS of dollars spent trying to "Tell people": what to buy and like. That is so absurd on it's face as to be utter nonsense.

I don't get the bitterness. I can't understand just always ridiculing the taste or attitudes of the buying public. And I am a huge musical historian and the same things were said about every major singer in history. Sinartra, the Beatles, Elvis, man,it is the most constant thing about music.

I firmly believe that one day they are going to find a cave drawing one day where a cave man is telling his cave son that the current music makers "can't sing and it is not how it was in "Their day." I almost can take those exact words claiming about how the public is so fooled and put it with critiques from music throughout history.

Having opinions are fine. Everyone has them and I respect yours. You often make fine points. But I just don't get this constant belittling of things that are actually working. I just see that so often and people who are trying to find ways in the music market do it and then wonder why they are so limited in their achievements. But everyone has their little ponds and their own lives. That is fine.

I just think it poisons the dialogue and runs off potential people that could help someone down the road. I see that every single day. Someone hitting number one, become very well known,
or achieving goals and heights they never thought they could because someone helped them or they helped someone else.

I guess I just don't get bitterness. I had it for quite some time as well. It never did a bit of good. I managed to get out of my own pity party. Since then things have been great. But that is just me I guess. Have a good day.

MAB

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Marc you obviously do not get reality either. Look around you look at the crap that is selling...you admire these people and like that stuff? Sheesh.
There is a difference between truth and bitterness. I am not bitter just truthful. Yes there are some good people who deserve fame and fortune but hey there are so many who do not. At the end of the day nobody deserves to earn the obscene amounts of money some people in the industry earn...especially when there are people just as good and talented who earn peanuts in comparison. The industry is unfair and corrupt but we all want a part of it. I at least admit that it is corrupt.
As for Simon Cowell....he has done more to set back the industry and ruin its development by failing to promote, introduce new innovators than probably anyone else. His finger is not even close to the pulse. He exploits the lowest of the low and probably would not know talent if it bit him on the ass. How many more Karaoke acts and reality shows exploiting sad delusional people can we take.
People do have bad taste are gullible and will buy into just about anything...that is why there are so many rich con men.
The vast majority of the record buying public are youngsters who are easily led and easily influenced.....I would rather educate them than con them. People need wider horizons and to be able to choose freely what they like not what they are spoon fed or peer pressure dictates them to like.

PS This is not me saying things were better in my day..this is a general observation since I became involved in the music industry 0ver 40 years ago. It was the same then doors generally only opened to a few and for the bulk of them talent did not enter the equation. Nothing has changed.
I take satisfaction from saying that so and so is not much good and I know I could do better. I see it as a positive. The bar has been lowered and rather than drop our game to their level we should strive to encourage people to be better after all listening to what is out there it is not so hard. It is no wonder that there are so many wannabes....they listen to the charts and reckon they can do that easy. They may have a point.

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Hmmm.....interesting discussion....

I see it on both sides. I was, at one time the music pro, when there was no such thing as "indie". It didn't matter. Most of the money was through playing live. So, you either entertained well, or someone would replace you. Side gigs in the studio were a bonus. An odd TV gig, was just another pay check. But at least there was a level of professionlism ( self determined, or industry determined ) which just said "Yep, got the goods, or not".

I think it's still the same.

As an indie thats married to a pro industry, I can tell you that the conversation is very intersting at times.

One thing that's agreed upon, talent is talent. It's quite obvious, and will make it's mark ( or lack thereof ) in the distant future.

cheers, niteshift




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You are right Jim there is a difference between truth and bitterness. And I have to tell you. Your posts on this discussion are nothing but bitter.
Your Simon Cowell observation just like every other observation that you have had is an OPINION thing only. Yet you spout it off as fact. "How many more Karaoke acts and reality shows exploiting sad delusional people can we take." The answer is up until the last one is succesful. Remember he's put out some dud shows as well.
"The vast majority of the record buying public are youngsters who are easily led and easily influenced.....I would rather educate them than con them. " Who says you are the one to educate them? To go back to the Taylor Swift example. Who says she is fooling anyone? She has talent. Get over it. She can write a catchy song. And while not having the best voice she has a great voice. Easily identifiable with character. In fact if you look back over all history it's not the best voices technically that make it. It's a voice that holds and brings the character to what they are singing.
So yes there is a difference between truth and bitterness, you just lie on the wrong side of the line. Now in saying that... I'm sure you could write a pretty damn good article for your local entertainment magazine every month. Because you could definitely write a great Opinion article every month.



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Perhps Jim is not talking through biterness. Perhaps, he's been in the industry for a very long time.

His opinion is one of many, but through deep experience.

So is Mark's. Different, but true also.

Me ? Just an indie on the sidelines, but I know my perception of real. It's any person that has done it, any person that has experienced it, and any person that has actually got got out there and done it. All others fail.


cheers, niteshift


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Yep niteshift. Both just differing opinions.
If anyone thinks the industry is not a who you know to get that door opened type of business they are sadly mistaken.(of course like anything else there are exceptions to this rule... ) I think if I remember right I got my first record company meeting with a sister of my brothers girlfriend at the time who was an A&R rep for Sony in Chicago back in the early nineties. Would I have ever gotten the chance to walk through that door if I didn't "know someone"... nope.. and I'll freely admit that. But after that talent rules the day. Does that mean it's always the MOST talented that "make it"... Nope... but anyone that does has some.

Now if my damn bandmates back then would have just listened to some of her advice and dropped the lead singer... lol but noooooooo ...

Last edited by jmsocia; 09/10/09 05:46 PM.
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I think our own experience does to a great extent inform our opinions. Marc sees through a Nashvillian lens, and though what he says can have value elsewhere, much of what he says about "how things work in Nashville" apply best there. Big Jim must have lots of first hand experience informing his skepticism concerning the music industry.

I think the whole dialogue, the whole "problem" becomes moot, though, if we enjoy the journey, and are "in it" out of a love for it, and have already answered the question, "if I knew I'd NEVER make a penny doing this thing I love, would I still do it?"

This goes along with what Marc says about having a "winning personality" in that...if you are out there, loving what you do, others will be attracted to that.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 09/10/09 06:40 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

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from the album "Casanova" (1996)
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Mike,

I think thats a great question "if I knew I'd NEVER make a penny doing this thing I love, would I still do it?". I would suspect most people including myself would answer that yes. That's essentialy what most of us do anyway maybe without admitting it. Still it gives us the chance to dream. Not sure if this or the lottery has longer odds But I doubt many people would buy lottery tickets if there no jackpot.
Besides you can't pull out a losing lottery ticket and stick it in the CD player and sing to yourself in the car.

Kevin

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This thread has the same appeal as reality shows, you get hooked for a short time then it goes away forever lol...

I have ALWAYS been a middle guy, an adapter to any situation or anyone. So I could sit in room all day with Big Jim and agree and get along constantly spend 90% of it laughing and saying 'yes yes totally" then go down to Nashville and do that all day with Marc and anywhere else with anybody lol...

Again & again everyone has opinions and preferences but what it all really boils down to like I always say is "PERSPECTIVE" PERCEPTION.

And there are MILLIONS of dollars spent trying to "Tell people": what to buy and like. That is so absurd on it's face as to be utter nonsense.

Hello? smile That is what this entire WORLD is based on from your deodorant to your President. Advertising is just about a Million Dollar business lol...For better "perspective" rent 30 seconds of AIR during the Superbowl. And see first hand what it takes to TOTALLY tell people what to buy and what to like. It's the way it is.

Does not mean what you sell them will last or sell forever, in that "the cream usually rises to the top"

As for Taylor Swift - Let it go.. The girl is talented and has a great image in more than one way. MAYBE she'll be really remembered in 10, 20, 30 years who knows. She is NOT Paul Simon in any regard, so lets not make her out to be. But please try to remember GIVE credit where and HOW credit is due. I mentioned in another thread how I have her soon to be equal in a 13 year old girl we are producing right now. In a few short weeks I'm putting her voice,her songs and her picture into Clive's hands
It will be an opportunity of a lifetime. A thrill even if she gets passed up by him. Just like I did when I was 19. I framed and hung my rejection letter on the wall.

Lets see about "perspective" If our young girl gets on the charts someday and is successful do I "rip her"? And say she's another handpicked pop star? Or are we proud and happy for her success and how were a big part of making a dream come true and doing something positive in our life?
You as an industry person LOVE Taylor is she is singing your song. You are her producers, band, manager,agents, label,Whatever you can think of. That is alot of professional people to make happy.


Don't worry so much how someone YOU don't know at all thinks of themself.
Because what does it matter? Maybe there "perspective" is unclear right now, they have there crew,there people there possies and there fans telling them every second of everyday how great they are. ANYONE and EVERYONE with a real brain in there head knows or realizes sooner or later at the end of the night when they close there eyes. "Compared to Stevie Wonder I TOTALLY SUCK but at least I'm not alone" smile

We have to stay focused and positive especially if we are REALLY trying to have ANYKIND of music career especially a songwriting one.

Try to keep the negativity that we ALL have sometime or somewhere hidden inside. Don't let it get in the way of your life and your career. Nobody wants to work with someone who comes off that way. So that's a guarantee of less to no collabs or contacts.
----------------

Hey I understand how Jim feels totally...

When I see a music related guy or girl on MTV CRIBS with a mansion and all the money and things in the world I feel it too.
OF course when they can't play,sing,produce,write melodies or know nothing about recording and they are RICH from music it is rather bewildering lol... BUT that's America baby,,

I don't say I should have MORE than them, I just think "wow I can't pay for medical costs or keep my teeth in my mouth with my abilities and years & years & years of UNPARALLELED perseverance.

This was MUCH easier to accept when Elton John & Billy Joel.Michael Jackson,Stevie Wonder were The BIGGEST Pop Stars in the world. There EXTREME talents are SO obvious to anyone with 2 ears and half a brain. Yes everyone is weak compared to these people. So I know how you's feel.

I don't have as much a problem when I see an athlete though.
We seem to accept that business more than we do the music biz.
And besides you CANT do anything near what they can do. So no conflict. If Music was like boxing people would be gone even faster.

But -
Pitbull, Kanye(auto tune)West.Lil Wayne, Hanna Montanna, P Diddy and on & on whoever is on the charts right now .... I know that if I go into a musical room with these people Not only am I gonna hold my own, I'm gonna get respect, I'm may (quietly) embarrass a few of them hurt a few ego's (for a few seconds anyway) lol

WHY am I saying this? to say to YOU work on YOUR GAME.

Even though I know I suck compared to the REAL past greats.. If given the chance I'm GONNA make somebody in my business say - Cool clever lyric there, hey nice melody, very catchy too, great part man, cool idea, slamming bass line, love that guitar part, nice sound, cool piano, how did you record that, cool idea, nice production.

When I rest my head I know I am as good and can do things that they can't. Regardless of money, popularity and all that. You can go on without the "public's respect" but not "self respect"

Fill the holes in your game best you can,because EVERYONE at some time can & will have resentment towards the industry or whatever there job or career is...
That's not nearly as important as having resentment towards YOURSELF. Make it so you can't can't blame YOU. When your that busy nothing else will matter.

On Collabs - They are HUGE. From the other people in your bands
to co-writers with pens & pads, to your producers, manager, contacts. YOUR attitude is the number one strength you own and the best thig you can bring to the table.

All The Best to you guys!


Thanks!
Peace Mike
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Originally Posted by jmsocia
Yep niteshift. Both just differing opinions.
If anyone thinks the industry is not a who you know to get that door opened type of business they are sadly mistaken.(of course like anything else there are exceptions to this rule... ) I think if I remember right I got my first record company meeting with a sister of my brothers girlfriend at the time who was an A&R rep for Sony in Chicago back in the early nineties. Would I have ever gotten the chance to walk through that door if I didn't "know someone"... nope.. and I'll freely admit that. But after that talent rules the day. Does that mean it's always the MOST talented that "make it"... Nope... but anyone that does has some.

Now if my damn bandmates back then would have just listened to some of her advice and dropped the lead singer... lol but noooooooo ...


You attack my views call me bitter and then post this backing up everything I said.....MMMMM PUZZLING.

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i dont really think this is backing up what you say...you might want to read it over especially the end... and while you are at it you might want to read the others as well...

Last edited by jmsocia; 09/10/09 08:54 PM.
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Last word on the subject. My observations are facts as far as I am concerned. It would be interesting to see if someone can disprove my facts. I can prove them all.

Fact. We live in a society where hype, advertising, peer pressure and keeping up with the Jones is the norm. That is why advertising and marketing is a billion dollar industry.

Fact. The vast majority of the record buying public are teenagers to early twenties. They are generally easily led and subject to fads fashions and peer pressure. They will buy almost anything and generally cannot look at things objectively.

Fact. Most people have a poor taste in and understanding of music..their tastes are very narrow and driven by hype. This is generally caused by them being insular, poorly educated and ignorant of what else is out there.

Fact. This industry is full of con men, cheats, liars and people who will climb all over you to get what they want. Most people involved in the industry at any level will fall foul of some of these people sooner or later. There are some honest, genuine people also.

Fact. Life is unfair.

Fact. I have been in the music industry for a very long time (over 40 years) as a performer first.... and songwriter second. I admit that songwriting is secondary and more of a hobby. I have met some great folk and some pretty awful individuals. Some of these people have reached great heights and received acclaim fame and fortune some just do it for fun and earn nothing. Some people I know are due huge amounts of money after being cheated by record companies, accountants, agents managers etc dating way back.... despite legal actions etc it is doubtful if they will ever get any of their money.

Fact. I am glad I did not join a certain band when asked to.

Fact. I do not regret anything. I perform for the love of music and would gladly perform for nothing getting paid is a bonus....

Fact. Some people do make it the hard way through the ranks and by serving an apprenticeship but a lot jump the queue as they are helped by friends in the know. The "directors couch" still exists.

Fact. There are specialist music lawyers who make a living ensuring that contracts rip people off. There are also specialist lawyers who work for individuals who try to get some of this rip off money back.

Fact. There is now and there has always been lots of crap music and crap musicians who make it. A lot actually make big money. I do not see it changing. On the flip there is and hopefully always will be some great music made.

Fact. Anyone who has ever read a magazine, or newspaper, or worked in the music industry, or watched TV, or listened to radio, or bought a record should know that all of the above facts are true. To say different you are either kidding yourself or do not get out much.

Whilst some people might not like these facts they are still facts and I do not have to prove them.

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One final fact....Mike C is tops....he always speaks sense and usually has things sussed.

I wish he could get rif of this damned cursed condition and get back to doing what he does best.....make great music.

Perhaps we should all focus on making great music... give the people who work under false pretences something to think about.

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Fact or Myth?: Manfred Mann offered Jim a job as their lead singer but he refused to butcher Springsteen's "Blinded By the Light"

Fact: That was Jim's 5,119th post

Fact or Fantasy?: I'll have a hit single in Nashville.

Fact: I'd still do a collab with Jim if the opportunity ever presented itself.

Kevin


"Good science comes in peer reviewed journals. Conspiracy theories come in YouTube videos. "
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Thanks Kevin..anytime... BTW If Springsteen can butcher a song then I might as well have a go also. LOL

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This whole thread has me wrecked up like a douche. laugh


Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
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Well Jim your list of "Facts" was pretty interesting. Some were facts (actually a better word would be observations) some were again mere opinions....

such as....

"Fact. Most people have a poor taste in and understanding of music..their tastes are very narrow and driven by hype. This is generally caused by them being insular, poorly educated and ignorant of what else is out there."

Poor tastes? According to who? You. They don't mesh with your tastes so they are "poor" tastes. Music is subjective. If someone likes foie gras and someone doesn't does that mean that the person who doesn't like it has poor taste in food and an uneducated pallete or that they just don't like the taste of it?

and this...
"Fact. The vast majority of the record buying public are teenagers to early twenties. They are generally easily led and subject to fads fashions and peer pressure. They will buy almost anything and generally cannot look at things objectively."

You are correct about the age of consumers. That is in pretty much every avenue. But while some can be described as you describe them I wouldn't really say that is a general rule. Unless of course you were trying to describe yourself when you were that age category. Then you go back into did you pick your music at that age (which has left its mark on you) because you were led by fashion and peer pressure? Or were you one of the ones who rose above all of that and picked the "good stuff"? But everyone else who picks what they like is being conned and led?

Music is a subjective thing. Just because it's not your cup of tea doesn't mean the cup of tea is spoiled and yours is served in a golden mug. I will say this... Your posts are fun to read.

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Hey all,

here's my take. I've read all the posts above and I can't see why different opinions couldn't be true at the same time, at least partially.

Jim says there are lots of crooks in the music business, or in any business for that matter. I don't know that first hand - lucky me! - but i've heard that enough, so: granted.
He says there are people with little musical talent who earn big money: granted.
He says there are people with huge musical talent who can't pay their rents: granted.
He says it's bad for people to be naive and gullible: granted.

Marc says there are people with musical talent who make money out of it: granted.
He says there are people who didn't know anybody in the business at first and didn't have a dime in their pockets who finally came to succeed through talent, hard work, patience and friendliness: granted.
He says there are genuine, honest people in the music business, or in any business for that matter: granted.
He says it's bad for people to keep thinking and talking about what's negative in the world: granted.

So I have no problems reading both posts.

What I'd like to add, though:
when someone thinks and talks negative because they're bitter, it's not the same thing as someone who - out of benevolence - tries to warn you about the dangers of gullibility.
and when someone thinks and talks positive because they're naive, it's not the same thing as someone who - out of benevolence - tries to warn you about the dangers of negativity.

I don't think Jim is bitter. I don't think Marc is naive. I think both look at the musicians and the songwriters' interests with a strong desire to help. At the end of the day, that's what's important for me.

In conclusion: it's not easy, it's not even fair, it's not safe, sometimes it's not even fun. We call it life. We can look at it from different angles and we'll come to different conclusions. I'd rather be happy than clever, but you have to be clever to be happy. So I don't need to be ripped off and I ALSO need to think it's possible to achieve some goals during our existence. Marc never said rip-offs were good, Jim never said it was impossible for talented people to earn respect and some money in the music biz. They're just trying to help music people to achieve some of their goals. Gullibility and a weird sense of the real doesn't help. Constant negativity doesn't help either. We just try our best and see what happens.

PS: what does all of this have to do with collabs anyway?

Last edited by yann; 09/11/09 02:32 PM.

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Originally Posted by jmsocia
Well Jim your list of "Facts" was pretty interesting. Some were facts (actually a better word would be observations) some were again mere opinions....

such as....

"Fact. Most people have a poor taste in and understanding of music..their tastes are very narrow and driven by hype. This is generally caused by them being insular, poorly educated and ignorant of what else is out there."

Poor tastes? According to who? You. They don't mesh with your tastes so they are "poor" tastes. Music is subjective. If someone likes foie gras and someone doesn't does that mean that the person who doesn't like it has poor taste in food and an uneducated pallete or that they just don't like the taste of it?

and this...
"Fact. The vast majority of the record buying public are teenagers to early twenties. They are generally easily led and subject to fads fashions and peer pressure. They will buy almost anything and generally cannot look at things objectively."

You are correct about the age of consumers. That is in pretty much every avenue. But while some can be described as you describe them I wouldn't really say that is a general rule. Unless of course you were trying to describe yourself when you were that age category. Then you go back into did you pick your music at that age (which has left its mark on you) because you were led by fashion and peer pressure? Or were you one of the ones who rose above all of that and picked the "good stuff"? But everyone else who picks what they like is being conned and led?

Music is a subjective thing. Just because it's not your cup of tea doesn't mean the cup of tea is spoiled and yours is served in a golden mug. I will say this... Your posts are fun to read.


There are always the exceptions to the rule and I conced that. However it is true that most people have a certain ignorance regarding music in general. They perhaps only get to listen to a narrow field and are poorly educated in other genres eras and styles. I was talking to a thirty year old who had never heard of Billy Joel. She was talking to me about pop stars I had never heard of or knew little about.

Obviously you have never had teenage kids if you say that kids are well versed in music tastes and can make their own minds up rationally without peer pressure.

Music is subjective but the large majority of people generally only get to hear what they are spoon fed and rarely venture out of their cofort zone.

This argumenat and the points I make have nothing to do with my cup of tea or likes and dislikes. It is about observations of human nature and what goes on in the record industry. I'm glad you think my posts fun. I am still trying to figure out what your posts are about or the points you are trying to make.

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"Fact. The vast majority of the record buying public are teenagers to early twenties. They are generally easily led and subject to fads fashions and peer pressure. They will buy almost anything and generally cannot look at things objectively."

It's actually not true that the vast majority of consumers are teens and in their twenties. There are differences between the countries, but more than 51% of record sales in the US are to consumers +25 (-45). Furthermore access to Internet show a positive effect on consumers 25+ (source: http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~felten/boorstin-thesis.pdf ).

The music business in Australia had the best year ever in 2003, just 6 years back, and the record companies are just in the beginning of converting their distribution and marketing to the Internet paradigm, so sales are expected to rise in the coming years, even despite the current economic crisis.

In fact digital album sales were up 32% in 2008, and digital track sales 27% (source: Billboard/Soundscan http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/consumer/billboard-soundscan-digital-album-sales-up-32-in-2008/). So the downward music business sales numbers are only valid in terms of distribution formats (CD's) that are about to be replaced by others (MP3's).

This does not imply that current music is poor, even though songs today fight way harder odds of cutting through the clutter on Internet, in fact quite the opposite! Music is better than ever before. News have an interest in the negative angle, but as we come of age we should know better than to digest the news, uncritically?

Also, I think the youngsters are way smarter than this typical generation gap portrait. Some might get music just because it will annoy their parents (and that's a pretty healthy identity process), but they are also VERY critical when it comes to being entertained. So they are rightfully the drivers in the music industry, making us create music that is entertaining line by line, as music business is about ENTERTAINMENT.

That word cannot be emphasized enough IMO, and it sure is not entertaining reading rant after rant here about how bad everything is. It makes these threads loose credibility, and look like JPF songwriters don't have their feet planted in reality..

Just my two cents, get ready for the future, cause songs will be sold, artists will thrive, and they will want more great music than ever. And with the line by line demands to music, it is harder to create great entertainment than ever - that is why collabs are so rampant (to loop back to what this thread is about)!

Everyone has to bring their absolute best to the table, no matter if we are writers, composers, musicians or producers!

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Sorry to nit pick but teenage to early twenties account for most of the record sales (singles)...... that is why most of the pop music promoters aim their product at this group. Here is a link .....it is old but the principle is still the same.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/StatBase/ssdataset.asp?vlnk=7183&Pos=&ColRank=1&Rank=272

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Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
Sorry to nit pick but teenage to early twenties account for most of the record sales (singles)...... that is why most of the pop music promoters aim their product at this group. Here is a link .....it is old but the principle is still the same.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/StatBase/ssdataset.asp?vlnk=7183&Pos=&ColRank=1&Rank=272


Big Jim,

You have a bad habit of the 'ol 'bait and switch'...

You make over-generalized, over-the-top, caustic statements
and then when you are cornered, you "switch" and say you were talking about something else.

You said "I bet Taylor Swift could NOT get signed if she sent anonymous recordings, therefore, this proves my point, that it's not what you know, but who you know."

Then when cornered with your bad logic, you switched, and said you were talking about that famous songwriter who sent in anonymous demos, and got turned down over and over, and then when you were asked who this was you said, "I'm not going to name drop"

Then switched again and said, "it doesn't matter, Taylor Swift is just an example..."

And now you say SINGLES, but ORIGINALLY, you said this:

Fact. The vast majority of the record buying public are teenagers to early twenties. They are generally easily led and subject to fads fashions and peer pressure. They will buy almost anything and generally cannot look at things objectively.


And now you "switch"...and say that "the vast majority of the record buying public are teenagers to early twenties"...and were basing this on SINGLES SALES, ONLY??

Jim, I agree with much of what you say, and simply DON'T LIKE the "way" you choose to say it. You seem to like to "put down" the person you are addressing, and you are probably the greatest guy, to know, in person, but honestly, do you think others like being "put in their place" all the time? And I'm not talking about your facts, Jim, but about your tone of voice. It can be very patronizing and condescending.

Example:

Obviously you have never had teenage kids if you say that kids are well versed in music tastes and can make their own minds up rationally without peer pressure.

Maybe you don't see it, Jim, but that is EXTREMELY patronizing.

So maybe if we all could just learn to talk to each other without all the alpha male breast beating, we'd hear each other, and then we could move on to something else, you know?

I apologize for my own "patronizing talk" with you. I am not immune...just...it's easier to see in others, than in yourself...I apologize if I have talked to you in such a way, and hope we can move on.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 09/11/09 05:20 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

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Actually Jim 15-24 and 25-34 are neck and neck... with the highest percentage being 45+

http://76.74.24.142/E795D602-FA50-3F5A-3730-9C8A40B98C46.pdf

As far as having teenage kids. 3 teenage stepsons. Do I parcticularily care for their music. Absolutely not. (Although every now and then something I can pick up on and like comes through.) But does that make their tastes better or worse then mine? Just different.

This whole part of the thread started because someone called you out for trying to make an argument using your opinion and passing it off as fact to prove your point. And instead of manning up and admitting it you continue to profess that your opinion is fact. Jim let me tell you, it's an opinion. A valid one maybe. But nonetheless an opinion. And anytime you try to make an argument with an opinion there is not a black or white answer.

By the way. Springsteen didn't butcher the song. He wrote it. But that's just my opinion.

(Mike snuck his post in while I was typing...lol)



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JMSOCIA You do not like what your teenage stepsons like and they obviously are not keen on what you like. This shows that people in general have a fairly narrow comfort zone and are pretty ignorant of music from other cultures, eras and genres. People go through fads and fashions that are usually peer pressure led. That was the point I was making. There is good and bad in all genres of music. IMO Most of the public are not too fussed about the quality of music and will buy and listen to any old thing. That observation has come about from playing gigs, and seeing other people perform, watching TV and listening to top 40s from the late fifties to current plus presenting KARAOKE and talent shows. I assure you that I am being objective when I state that there is a lot of crap about. I think I am experienced enough to spot the HUGE difference between not my cup of tea and untalented. Example......I am not too keen on country music but can appreciate some of the talented players and writers who produce it. I was in sales and marketing for a while and believe me the general public are often as not pretty uneducated, gullible and stupid.....not just when it comes to music.

Re Springsteen I am well aware that he wrote "Blinded" my ref to him butchering it was a bit of a private joke between Kevin and I.....you probably do not understand....... we go back a long way re that song and we cast it up occasionally.

Tell Kevin that even although Springsteen wrote it he still did a pretty good job of butchering it. Even my version is better.LOL

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"This shows that people in general have a fairly narrow comfort zone and are pretty ignorant of music from other cultures, eras and genres." It shows nothing of the sort. lol It shows people like what they like. I listen to their stuff and they listen to mine. But even after listening that style is not what I choose to listen to. Again does it make their taste any more or less valid then mine? No. Even if it did show they have narrow comfort zones who's to say those zones are wrong? To each his own.

"I think I am experienced enough to spot the HUGE difference between not my cup of tea and untalented. " I think based on your writings you have a tough time differentiating the two. You have a tendency to put down anything that is not in your comfort zone. (In fact it can't be wrong because there is no right or wrong in music. Either someone likes it or they don't)

"I was in sales and marketing for a while and believe me the general public are often as not pretty uneducated, gullible and stupid.....not just when it comes to music." You have a pretty poor view of the general public. Again I think clouded by the fact that you really firmly believe your opinions are facts. I revert back to the bitter man. You are very bitter. If I were to guess. You were once on the cusp of success and then didn't quite make it for one reason or another. (Probably nothing of your own doing.) Yet watched those around you succeed (as well as fail but a lot succeed) and since then have really thought that should have been me. (Not every day. In fact it probably doesn't even consciously enter into your mind anymore. But still governs your thoughts.)

I think you are probably a pretty nice guy. But you just have a hard time letting any opinion but yours be valid. One of my best friends is like that. You just need to learn when to use the words "my opinion" vs. this is why it is.

Hope you have a great weekend. Again. I think you probably are a pretty nice guy. And I've heard your stuff before. I think you are very talented. That's my opinion.




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Hey Big Guy

It's funny I often find or point out the good or positive in something first then bring up the weakness or the negative aspect.

You are the reverse smile

Sometimes we observe and react as FANS lovers of music and other times it's as participants.

As a lover of music and popular music being one of my top favorites, I'm hugely disappointed in the industry. It's not about well I'm old and don't get it or it's not my era BS..
I DIDN'T hate my parents music I LOVED it.

FACT: I am a musician first and musicians have less to do with the music industry today than ever before in time. So unless they put instrumentals into the top 10 again NOBODY can dispute this smile There are less live musical instruments being played over the radio now than even in the 80's..

Fact: I am a producer and producers have EVERYTHING to do with the music industry today lol... But I don't produce that genre smile

When I get frustrated as a fan it's like everyday conversation,could be the same rant about gas prices basically but of course with more passion.

When I get frustrated as a pro it's just from taking so many on the chin for so long and a direct hit. Getting back a letter in my hands from Kelly Clarkson's producer telling me something about content or lyric or whatever but NOT showing me!

In other words he makes a point then it's the complete opposite on the material he used and is pushing. The guy is inconsistent,it doesn't matter to him of course. He's not thinking about this material I AM!
You used very weak lyrics and lame songs on this album, why not use my weak and lame songs before I die LOL... Or is it who you know? lol

Do I know and understand the differences? You bet! Always have hopefully always will.

Quick story....

We are at band practice in Manhattan. We are about 22 years old
and waiting to hear the response from out new submission to a record label. Our manager comes back from Arista Records after a meeting with his friend. We are VERY anxious to hear news. He says "Listen he liked our work but then he sat me down and played me this new girl he's pushing she's the daughter of so & so and cousin of, and etc.... It was incredible you guys's should hear this it's gonna be out all over the place really soon.

So we heard Whitney Houston for the first time, 5 young guys born from rock bands all said "Wow she's incredible"
And this song is gonna be a massive hit. We did not say,, What is this crap, elevator music? this is really lame, we hate it they should SIGN US! Nope!!! they shouldn't.

But 25 years later when those with not nearly the ears, the talent, the song tries to run the same thing on you it doesn't fly. Why because a professional judgement is slightly different from an opinion.

We knew the difference then and we know it now.
It's how we deal with it that makes the only difference.



Thanks!
Peace Mike
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Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes...

We can't control everything that happens to us but we can control how it defines us.

Last edited by jmsocia; 09/11/09 07:26 PM.
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Originally Posted by jmsocia
Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes...

We can't control everything that happens to us but we can control how it defines us.


JM

That is a great quote... Wish i had known it exactly beforehand I could have saved a lot of typing lol....

You made some excellent points on this thread as did all the others here. I feel that is what MAB is pushing at by the end of the day as well, "what are you doing about it"?

I just reminded my wife who is a struggling artist, when your really doing your thing you don't have the time to even know what others are doing and most negative thoughts are even further from your mind. But this is always a reminded battle when you actually try to do something more with your work.

When what you love to do is part of your dream and also what feeds you all kinds of emotions come into play.... When one of those things is failing or struggling you are off balance and troubled.

And one of them ALWAYS is.... smile


Thanks!
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Thanks Mike. I am a positive guy...and you are right I always state the negatives. An old pal of mine who is a perfectionist said "If you do not know the negatives then you know nothing"

I try to help people and will always give out advice but sometimes along the way I get into trouble for speaking my mind and saying too much. One thing worth bearing in mind I always do it with good intentions. Sometimes people get the wrong end of the stick.

A quick story. I was in the studio today and a pal of mine came in to lay down a guitar part for an original piece I am working on. He had never heard it before and did not even ask what key it was in. While it was playing for the first time he busked along and laid down this incredible solo, also recorded lots of different takes one after the other in diff styles and with diff fx so I could choose the stuff I liked. I loved all of it and it will be hard to choose what to bin. This guy makes a good living but has never really hit the big time. It riles me when I know that very few if any of these so called "stars" who make zillions could come close to his performances or professionalism.

I will let you hear the track when it is finished.

I too am of the opinion that this business is corrupt and full of people who do not know talent when they see it. That has just made me wiser and never deterred me from making music and a living.

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Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES


A quick story. I was in the studio today and a pal of mine came in to lay down a guitar part for an original piece I am working on. He had never heard it before and did not even ask what key it was in. While it was playing for the first time he busked along and laid down this incredible solo, also recorded lots of different takes one after the other in diff styles and with diff fx so I could choose the stuff I liked. I loved all of it and it will be hard to choose what to bin. This guy makes a good living but has never really hit the big time. It riles me when I know that very few if any of these so called "stars" who make zillions could come close to his performances or professionalism.



Hi Jim

I was recently explaining to someone who was very interested in breaking into the music industry.

In the discussion I mentioned talent, then I said you need either A Talent or B Talent or both.
They said what's the difference?

I said - "A" Talent means your flat out great, and just about nobody can deny it or question it,unless there an idiot lol..

"B" Talent - Is having the talent that the INDUSTRY and the KIDS are looking for.

Nobody in the biz except some engineers and whoever is paying for the production and time cares about your friends gift. I do of course.. but I mean the Record Labels etc..
Being a GREAT musician has very little to do with being a big music star in many many cases. The guitar player is out of the limelight these days. Been that way for a while now.

A TALENT - is important to the B Talent,weather they know it or not. Justin Timberlake (B Talent) had a phenomenal guitar player working for him a few years ago, This guy is in high regard to all (who know) in the music scene. But actually nobody could care less WHO plays the guitar for him. They are not there to see or hear him at all...
The B TALENTS need the A TALENTS they often produce there records and do all kinds of behind the scenes things.

B TALENT - The B Talent the kind that the industry pushes and sells you. He or she sings pretty good to very good, LOOKS great to most and dances well... Can't play, can't or doesn't really write, can't produce, can't do any in depth stuff. That's not there job or talent or skill.
But the A TALENT needs the B TALENT also... If that's what the industry has chosen to promote then THEY need work. Musicians get session work, and do tours etc...

Of course there are the "Artists" that have the luxury of being noted as both. John Mayer is a great example of that.
EVERYBODY who knows anything knows he''s a great guitar player and musician. Yet his HITS are always the simple basic songs with NO solo's or extensive riffs, or riffs at all. The public
picks up mostly on his voice, song and looks, the same for Brad Paisley.

Britany is a B TALENT, Paul Simon is an A TALENT,
Beyonce is a B TALENT, STEVIE is an AAAA TALENT smile

The SINGER is the most important thing to the public... Sometimes the depth of talent of that singer varies, that could play into there longevity,career and how they are perceived.

Even your friend knows he will probably NEVER be famous or rich from the music industry. He will get respect from everyone he encounters though. Maybe that will be enough for him maybe not.
But also You can't pay Con Edison or College tuition with respect...


Thanks!
Peace Mike
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Here's a feed from my viewpoint into the discussion..

I like the categorization in A and B talents, Mike. This is very true, and the Idol and all the industry competition stuff is all B talent hunting. Great thing for the industry is that the shows are marketing those guys, so when the seasons are finished, the music business have had free product development and marketing from TV.

But if you put up A talents (if they'll ever bother) in those shows, it would be too big a handful for the audience to digest. Great art is often not as immediately likable as pop culture, and state-of-the-art 'art' is as much about annoying people as it is about entertaining them, because one of the many purposes of art is to mirror the values in our current society and perhaps even suggest changes as well as expanding the human territory of 'openness'. So if we are so annoyed by the current pop music, it could as easily be that we get a mirror up our face that we don't like! That alone, would justify it's existance IMO.

But, the gap between blue collar consumer culture and elitist development of art has been prevalent for centuries, and just last century there was a controversy between the elitist philosopher Nietzche and Wagner, where Nietzche put down Wagners music as pop culture. So the popular have always been connected with something negative, nothing new here. Most people celebrate Wagner in quite a different way today.

Musicians often subscribe to the elitist art view, because it's cooler in their circles and helps their reputation, but also because it's somewhat necessary to cultivate broad tastes. But to make a living they have to play what the public are asking for, it has been the Barde's destiny since the beginning of time. So sure, great musicians might just use 5% of their virtuoso skills to play chart hits, but that doesn't make it lesser music.

I think music is too universal and important to leave with the A team musicians, as music is also a language of communication and a way to reach out to each other. So the A team talent dimension certainly contributes to create great music, but music is too big to be dependent upon that one variable only, and a song can even do better without great musicians, if it communicates something universal that strikes a chord in everyone. If music does that, that chord don't need to be played by an A talent who wants all the credit for musical greatness.

As far as my experience goes, the musician Jim tells about is nothing out of the ordinary. I don't know that guy, and he might be great, but most musicians I know don't ask for keys and can play the hell out of any tune by ear. That's standard musicianship, and most musicians in command of their craft can do that. They have had time and guidance to develop their skills, but one thing that they don't do, is to use those priveledges to mock people who haven't been so determined, fortunate or talented in their life.

I think collaborations are a sign of this also. Music does not belong exclusively to the A team musicians anymore like in some prior decades. Some see this as a 'decline', mostly those with the elitist idea of music, but others see it as 'progress', because, at least the production of - music, now is more in touch with people or society.

As the societies have become more and more homogenized in the westerns world, so has radio, so has music. As money have become our value no one, music industry reflects that by being focused on the selling points more than 'artistic' value. As sex is one of the major selling points, artists have to be sexy, music gets to be vulgar. It's a mirror, it's art, and yes it might be annoying, but not 'poor' in any 'objective' sense. Another thing is that we might not like the way society has evolved. Jim, then you know what to do - create some 'state-of-the-art' art, with the purpose of change. Don't celebrate music from the 60'ies or another past decade, the current charts are full of those reissues - that is part of the current fixation of crude culture. Write some new songs, new music that reflects what you think or want wink

Mike Caro is a perfect example of such a musician, who have A team skills and talent, but really seem to speak from the position that music everyone's, and therefore must be including in nature. Then it is perfectly legit to rank artists and discuss different tastes..

And my viewpoints here are not 'facts', Im proud to say laugh

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Hi Magne

Great post! Very insightful and true. Great culture evaluations Magne. And thanks sooooo much for the kind compliment. Nobody is a more realist then me, I'm not ashamed to admit that I'm thrilled that Paul McCartney is NOT my competition. Others in life have had to feel that & think that way. Fortunately for them they were The Stones, Motown, The Beach Boys lol...

Ya know as much as I LOVE great music and great musicians I LOVE great songwriters,singer songwriters SOUL music and I have always LOVED Popular Music.
I wouldn't want the industry to ONLY play & promote artist like
Jaco Pastorious everyday & night or any slew of Jazz artists or any genre for that matter. I saw Jaco twice up close in NYC Oh brother! smile

What is sad is they shouldn't HAVE to abandon them either.

Atlantic Records HUGE!!! had Yes on there label.. A band that had a double album with 4 songs on it, ONE song per side smile
This band with it's incredible musicians and songs had a CHARTED
number 13 song with the epic Roundabout. The INDUSTRY made that happen.

I listen and love some of the poppiest tunes of all time. The thing I observe about them as a musician,songwriter and a producer first is there are musicians ALL over them. Musicians are supposed to be what music is all about! Music/Musician. smile

That is why Chicago was in the top 3 best pop groups of ALL time.
Singers can be musicians too, and not just puppets.
If there are such talents like that today (even on the internet)
then some suit should find them put them on the radio every 10 minutes and we'll never hear Big Jim say another negative thing about the music biz again LOL...

Talk about poppy pop...
I LOVE "Beach Baby" by the one hit 70's group "First Class"

This song has VERY cheezy lyrics. And EXCEPTIONAL musicality.
There are about 40 musicians playing on it. Hmmm well that was 30 years ago Mike, but 30 years before that 40 musicians were playing on the radio on nearly every song everyday. GREAT POP artists such as Benny Goodman, Glen Miller etc..etc...

So it's okay 30 years apart from then but not for now? I ask myself lol...

So if I had no clue lol I might hear Beach Baby and say
Oh God this is so cheezy, what kind of syrup is this? Oh this oh that... BUT of course I hear these GREAT melodies, and changes. HUGE dynamics. Slick tempo changes, wonderful counterpoint, great harmony, This killer drum groove, Beautiful French horns complimenting these great string lines. Now not only are the vocals counterpointing but so are the strings. I'm closing my eyes and visualizing the studio they were in... Man there's 30 plus players on this and HOW many tracks did they have in 1974?

And All of this and were not even talking about The Beach Boys Good Vibration or anything from Pet Sounds. All this money and work for an AM radio bubblegum tune. I LOVE IT....

They had no choice right? Couldn't make a whole song with 2 people a computer and a Roland Beat Box. But why? Where is the rule book that says. "Hi welcome to the music industry you are now an executive or A&R person therefore you are NOT allowed to EVER let anything that used to rule the planet and make plenty of money at the same time in these doors again"

What will it take for them to STOP using the very old Cher effect on EVERY song and every TV commercial. What engineer is gonna have the -alls to stand up at a session and say NO man I ain't doing it again.. I don't care if you fire me. And if you do we're all going on strike LOL... No AUTOTUNE EFFECT! smile

Nobody is paying any attention. The producer is coming in and saying to the engineer okay but where's that sound that's supposed to be on all vocals"
I have been in BIG studio's this is what they actually say & do.
Can it make it another decade?

I heard a song yesterday on the radio where the drum machine was intentionally put out of time the whole song. It was horrible and offensive to all of my senses. But that's what most of pop radio does for me today.
I sit and really really try to find the good aspects in it and it's getting really really really hard to find.

Magne - Chicago and The Bee Gees and Elton & Billy Joel were all A Talent and all SUPER DUPER POP STARS. Actual Pop Stars with posters.. and on the top of the charts being played over the radio every 2 seconds. And they were GREAT! in every regard.
Man Chicago had the whole package and that's why no one has ever even been close to them since.

On a few points you made...
I can't agree or admit that a decline of great musicianship for radio is any kind of progress. And how a song can do even BETTER without great musicians. I agree you don't have to wail all over a song for it to be great of course... But being a great musician is not about only wailing all over songs of course.
Look at the Funk Brothers on all the Motown hits. They have EVERY musicians respect and everybody else's as well.

You take the same song and give it to not great musicians
and then give it to great musicians and see what happens smile
But I know what you were trying to get across..

And a great producer would be sure that all things are in the right place.

All The Best, great thread about collabs running wild on the boards smile




Thanks!
Peace Mike
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"I can't agree or admit that a decline of great musicianship for radio is any kind of progress."

Point taken. I meant that a musicians attitude, if they are too rooted in the 'artist' ideas and haven't really made it to the A team, can stand in the way of a songs ability to reach out to many people.

But really great musicians like Steve Cropper knows how to go with a song, go with the music. Same was with the guys that played on Elvis' RCA records in the 50'ies.. Chet Atkins, Hank Garland and later Barney Kassel.

I've always admired those session guys, still do. Who goes with the song, but add just a little something that makes it fly over the top! Current greats like Lee Ritenour and the guys in Fourplay, Brent Mason, Mike Dunbar.. too many to mention love

Those are also collaborations - between great musicians, songwriters, artists and producers..

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I like Mike's A versus B post. It is so true. The problem nowadays is that clever engineers and digital technology has made the A artists somewhat redundant. MIDI and VST has reduced the need for REAL musicinas to play and write great songs. It is much more convenient to get a great looking B lister singing a Karaoke cover or a simple one line melody to a drum and bass MIDI.

The American idol philosophy that anybody can be a star and you do not even have to be much good has swamped the market to saturation almost excluding the A listers. Why take a chance on investing in a new talented innovator when we can churn out another clone doing the same old...... then get another then another..... then another .......instant disposable stars and music.

My big worry is that in twenty or thirty years from now we will not have many long lasting A list stars of any quality just a string of manufactured one hit wonders.

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What about us "C" guys?

Kevin


"Good science comes in peer reviewed journals. Conspiracy theories come in YouTube videos. "
Kevin @ bandcamp: Crows Say Vee-Eh (and Kevin @50/90 2019)
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Mike,

You are correct that there are different talents. I don't look at these talents as if one were "better" than the other ("A" or "B"). They are just different.

There's a talent to artistically perform, and a talent to artistically communicate. Some people have both talents. Is Stevie Wonder really a better singer than Pavoratti? No, but he artistically communicates to a larger audience. Stevie Wonder is a much better artistic communicator. His art accesses a wider audience.

Chick Corea is an amazingly talented keyboard player, but most people would rather listen to Fats Waller.

To artistically communicate, you have the actuator and the receptor. They exist in a continuum of experience. Just as those two sentences lose some people, so does fine art...art for art's sake...lose some people. The artistic continuum of the sixties and seventies had, not a flow of amazingly talented musicians unrivalled today...what it had was a bunch of amazingly sophisticated listeners. This came about because of a "perfect storm" of the audience in the western world.

You had a newly affluent youth, who had more freedom than ever before in the history of the world. Also, you had a technology explosion that brought down the price of recorded music. Kids with their own spending money and permission to buy their own music...who owned their own radios and record players. When I was ten years old, the radio and record player were owned by my mom. Those things were too expensive for a kid. By the time I was fifteen, I even owned my own tape reocrder. And I was a "poor" kid by most standards in the U.S....totally unprecedented in the world. These kids also had a common cause in the U.S., they didn't want to get forced to join the army and go to Viet Nam. They began to protest, it was a youth movement. This coincided with the ascension of the Beatles who were reaping the cultural revolution of the young white audience accepting (or stealing smile ) the black style of music--Elvis...rock and roll. It was the natural teen revolt against their parents, only this time with teeth.

At the same time, there was a revolution on the college campuses. Just as rock revolted against jazz (the two pop forms) so did folk music revolt against bebop (the two intellectual forms). Folk eschewed the music for the message. I mean, how much further could bebop go? Just play faster, I guess. At some point the brain can't track that speed. So the colleges started mixing the beat poetry of Ferlinghetti with the cultural messages of Woody Guthrie and what did you get? Bob Dylan.

Now, the Beatles were singing "I'm a love a you baby, be bop woo woo" but they were blown away by Dylan's messages, so the confluence began. Rock became political and introspective in its lyrics, instead of just being musically revolutionary by breaking racial and generational barriers. So, the kids who were bonded by a political goal (stop the draft and end the war) found the only voice they had, the only widespread communication they had, came from the music. The kids listened intently and hung on every word. They also started smoking pot and taking acid, so it "blew their minds" when the music took a left turn from the simple beats and harmonies to the more sophisticated or the simply jarring. The audience...listening intently...was being educated in music. So when the same audience's major political goals were met (the end of the draft and the end of the Viet Nam War in '72) they kept listening to music with a newly sophisticated ear. For several years, the artistic perfomers were also the artistic communicators.

Then fast forward. Gradually the generational revolution started rearing its head. Punk. Thrash. Alternative. Grunge. A lot of things were boiling up. Just presenting pure anger and angst without a lot of fine performing. But, they were artistically communicating with an audience that was rebelling against Steely Dan's fans...the old farts. They were rebelling against the vanity of the stadium rockers and the metal satyrs. (Oh baby, come and get my love. When I get to your town, just line up and strip.) But still, no revolution. Until...

The Black Americans took the music back. Rap and Hip Hop took over the world. Even the so called "progressive" white musicians rebelled and decried against it. It was far more punk than punk. It made grunge look like a poor attempt at mimicking rock and roll. It was truly different and revolutionary. It reduced the artistic performance to a communal beat where the audience and the performers both equally were moved by a beat that didn't even need a player, just a machine. The primal beat in all of us was tapped and exploited. What Disco was tickling at, Rap scratched and clawed its way through. The musician was not important, only the music. The music could be programmed, the beat could be dialed in, the performers reacted and responded to it the same as the audience. The communication between the rapper and the rap audience became closer by the shared experience.

So now, all music is being affected by it. The artistic communication is becoming a shared experience. The talented priests of the music no longer have the keys to the holy book. Anyone can go to Sam Ash and buy them. It's the time of the artistic communicators.

Get used to it, gang, like any revolution, it will leave its mark until some artistic communicator comes along and reaches a common audience. I believe there will eventually be one.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

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hey everyone im looking to collaborate with fellow songwriters. unfortunately people(other songwriters) want me to sing their songs but uh hello ima songwriter myself been doing it since i was like 10 im 21 now so please do the math i got this. i just need that person that can help me reach the goals i would like to reach in life. i dont want anybody telling me the steps i want some cowriters who are ready to work and get there. ambition is the key, you must be ambitious to work with me. you must be persistent and know whats going on in the songwriting world. i need people who will get us where we need to be in this career. please only email me if you truly understand me and what i am saying.... iwant serious folks who are ready to work like forreal. so please shoot me an email if thats you dsmith21@email.cpcc.edu

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EXACTLY!

Welcome.

You might want to put some of your stuff up at the MP3 or the lyric boards. That's your best place to find cowriters here.



You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

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King D J,

Remember that tone is a pretty important thing in co-writing and anything in the music industry. If you are wanting to invite people into your world, you need to understand that you have to give back and it is not just all about you. So to kind of lay down only what you want is the fastest way to get nowhere.

In anything in the business, as well as any business, you are utilizing other people to get to your goals. Record people, co-writers, managers, agents, etc. They all have contacts, money, skills, venues, publicity, etc. that you need to get known. Very few people are going to respond to the "I want this, I want that," analogy. Most people will go "Who cares?"

There is nothing wrong with having your desires and making those known. But until you are on top of the charts, selling a LOT of product, you are really not much of a place to make any demands on anyone.

Might think about that before being quite as hard line. Ends up just leaving you alone. And in the music business, no one gets very far alone.

MAB

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This thread should be sealed and and put into the JPF vault of greatest threads. A lot of good reading here. I wish that I could write my thoughts as well as you guys.

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I looked up the definition of talent....

Definitions of talent on the Web:

endowment: natural abilities or qualities
a person who possesses unusual innate ability in some field or activity
a superior apparently natural ability in the arts or sciences or in the learning or doing of anything



On the basis of the above definition it is hard to say that someone of average or even slightly better than average ability can be described as having talent. Talent is doing something special, something unique that only a few others can equal.

I do not understand why people say someone has talent when they are just run of the mill average. We may as well say we all have talent and forget about the proper meaning.

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GREAT thread Mike D

Makes total sense to me.

I also feel that anyone can like the abilities or what ever an artist or writer has to offer that's the beauty of it all.
It's not judging it's just an observation and distinction.

When I was playing on Gloria Estefan's song I didn't think for a second "okay she's a B talent" but I'll do this anyway lol
I loved it and was thrilled. I actually used that A/B as a fast way to explain something to someone smile The person I explained it to didn't have either A or B talents now they realize it and I NEVER hurt there feelings.

I could care less what the world wants to listen to and emulate.
Kids want to be COOL more than ANYTHING in the world. Being cool means TOTALLY being accepted. That is why they LOVE rap & hip hop. Just like they did Rock years ago.

Regardless of what the industry or scene is. I will continue to personally emulate what I feel takes discipline and hard work.
I much admire the skills required to program songs and it takes work but it takes a hundred more times work to learn to be a good violin player. As long as musical instruments exist in our world I will associate myself with them.
I'll keep trying to improve my songwriting my guitar & bass playing, my drumming, my piano and vocals, producing & engineering.
Continue to try and improve on the many many holes I have in my game.




Thanks!
Peace Mike
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Collaboration is at the root of all human experience, and just maybe they are becoming more common because they make us feel connected. Connected in a more...basic, human, real way...and that's a powerful drug...connectedness...

Also, there are less obvious collaborations happening everywhere, all the time...even the most capable A types like Peter Gabriel needs hundreds upon hundreds of people to get their music into your living room, and another few hundred to take it on the road.

If A Stevie Wonder sings in the forest, and there's no on there to hear him, does that Stevie Wonder exist?

To a listener, nope. How many great musicians will we never hear? And to try to reduce the reasons for this is futile. Some don't care to be heard beyond the local level, some try and don't make it, others don't, and Do become wildly successful.

Life itself, is collaboration, and that is where the fun is, as Colin noted earlier. The best we can do is know where we "fit in." This is also where we get in trouble, because oft times life doesn't turn out how we wanted it...but if we are open to "life as an adventure" then maybe we arrive in the present and can look at ourselves objectively and accept what we see, with ourselves, AND others who are probably going through this same...individuating process.

Midi and software has NOT ruined the collaborative experience for me, nor does it make up for a lack of talent. It does make me capable of self-producing at a "Brian Wilson" level of artistry, and so I, personally, am thankful for progress.

In fact, how many people did it take to MAKE the software I use? Again...collaboration...hidden in MANY things...

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 09/12/09 07:55 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

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Mike Z, back in the 1100's someone said we are like "dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants." Where would Stevie Wonder be without the amazing praise and worship singers of the Black church?

Mike C, thanks much. As to which is "better," I'd never begin to pontificate. I can tell you which things I like and don't like, but why should you care? You've got your own likes and dislikes. Frankly, I find reading about likes and dislikes to be fairly boring. Years ago, I would read movie critics, until I found out that I didn't always like the movie they recommended, or really liked the one they didn't. That, as we say, is a "clue."

Now in pedagogy, the art and science of being a teacher, there is value to critique. But for art, there is just history, popularity, what you like and what you don't like. There is somewhere, I'm sure, the world's best licorice maker...but I don't like licorice. However, I'm darn sure not going to tell you not to like it. That would make no more sense, and have about the same effect as you telling me to like it.

All the Best,
Mike


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

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You do not have to like or dislike a thing in order to see it has quality. I have seen many things which I might dislike but know they are of good quality. For example I dislike the pattern and colours of a rug my wife bought but I know it is well made and of good quality.
I have heard people crucify songs that I normally love or perform very well songs that I usually dislike. It does not matter what is being performed we all know if we are honest whether someone has or has not got any real talent. Why are people so touchy about this? There is a big difference between not my cup of tea and not very talented.

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Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
You do not have to like or dislike a thing in order to see it has quality. I have seen many things which I might dislike but know they are of good quality. For example I dislike the pattern and colours of a rug my wife bought but I know it is well made and of good quality.
I have heard people crucify songs that I normally love or perform very well songs that I usually dislike. It does not matter what is being performed we all know if we are honest whether someone has or has not got any real talent. Why are people so touchy about this? There is a big difference between not my cup of tea and not very talented.


Jim,

You asked "why" people are so touchy about this, and I will try to give you my take.

There is no "machine" or "scanner" that can definitively tell whether or not someone has talent.

In spite of your dictionary definition, "having talent" means different things to different people. It is still more in the realm of personal opinion than scientifically provable "fact."

Anyone who sets themselves up as "authorities" of talent will get a lot of touchiness from others who disagree about the "authorities" assessments. Simon Cowell is a good example. Simon IS a talent expert, though, and it's his "winning" personality that many others find offensive.

There are a lot of gray areas, with new art...hip hop, rap, singers that use "autotune" etc...and I suppose it's easy to generalize and dismiss them all as a talentless lot. However, these genres, and the artists who reside inside them, have faithful audiences who would beg to differ. I suppose it takes less talent to "rap" than to sing...but to be a really good rapper, and to really "reach" an audience? Really? I, personally would feel uncomfortable making such a claim.

Maybe what makes some people touchy is when someone acts like an "authority on talent" and then tells people they are being spoon fed their music against their will, and that they like music that is made by talentless people?

To this argument, I would add "so what?" As Magne points out, "that's entertainment!" LOL...if I'm looking for "entertainment", sometimes I don't care if they have talent. If I am looking for art, it's a different story.

Maybe if you could see a connection between why, on the one hand, people here are touchy about what constitutes "talent", while on the other hand you seem to be force feeding people "facts" concerning who can have talent, and who can't (musical genre); or who simply has it, or doesn't (specific artists). Maybe they have panels of judges, on these talent shows, because sometimes it's not unanimous, either way? Just maybe, Jim, sometimes talent is in the ear of the beholder...otherwise none of these "talent based" game shows could exist in the first place. They are driven by the opinion of "judges"...and then, by audience phone in votes, in many cases...

Even you must admit, it's not so digital, on or off, yes or no...SOME PEOPLE are borderline talents...and if a borderline talent or non talent is successful...why not be happy for them??
Like you say, life isn't fair. Maybe they "wanted" it more...

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 09/13/09 10:52 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

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I just hope that if I am ill and go to see a doctor he is chosen for his talent rather than his charisma or popularity.

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Or hope that he is using 21st century medicine and not bleeding you with leeches and thinking the world is still flat and run by demons.

MAB

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