JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Obvious rhymes

Obvious rhymes, like shoes with blues, should be avoided as much as possible, but don't let any artificial rules stand in the way of saying what you need to say or letting the song go where it needs to go. Don't write for publishers or anyone else, that path leads to artistic death. Don't think that every line needs to rhyme. Most lines should, but meter and phrasing can make up for lack of a rhyme. Listen to Bob Dylan, and then look at a printout of the lyrics. You'll find that he uses the corniest and most attrocious rhymes imaginable, at times, and at other times he doesn't worry about rhyming at all. Worry about saying what you need to say, and never hold a song back from going some place you hadn't planned on. Don't ever force anything, and if it isn't happening tonight just let it rest for awhile. And finally, write with guitar in hand and sing your lines as you write; your songs will come out more natural and less contrived.

Yep, they used the word PAIN. I was thinking how even the word "strain" would work and would have been more unique. Or they could have written the line just a little different to have it end with "strain." Or, as it was a Christian song, said something about "free from all my chains," or "helped me escape the heavy chains," or something besides PAIN. I know it would have to meter out right but I think it would have been easy to do.

How about - (lose the final 'through')

"against the grain"
"the same refrain"
"for higher gain"
"He knows my name"
"it hurts my brain" (just kidding)
"I am to blame"

...

And about 56 more...



Greg

I agree Mark, another aspect is that there are other VERY well-written, interesting parts of these songs that carry them... I think we too often try to look at 'rules' as black and whites. It's easier to do what you do if you know exactly how to do it.... but it really does NO good to just throw examples up of how this or that song broke the rule and that's why it isn't a rule. The great songs are usually great because they follow the rules somewhere around 75-95% of the time. But when they break the 'rules' they are broken for very good reasons, are very interesting and are employed to great effect. AND they wouldn't stand out as glaring examples of 'rule-breaking' if most of the other parts of the song didn't stay within familiar boundaries... It's hard to say this clearly except to say that all of the 'rules' are there for a reason it is best to try to follow them as much as possible but don't merely break them out of laziness, break them because they NEED to be broken in order to accomplish something in your song.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

Greg

Just an interesting related note...I was reading Jimmy Webb's 'Tune smith'* on the plane today (great reading, btw). He actually rants about this topic for a few pages...except in defense of the proper rhyme.

(Many of the contributors to this thread seem to throw all proper rhymes into the "obvious rhyme" category, which was bothering me. I think that you can use proper rhymes as long as they're not trite.)

Anyway, in the midst of defending the proper rhyme he writes, "The writer would be wise to note that using these false rhymes (which he defines as two words that while not proper rhymes are close enough in vowel sound to create a passable rhyming effect) even though they may admirably serve a purpose will inevitably weaken the effect of a given line. The listener will be offended on a subliminal level even if he or she doesn't know the difference between a false and proper rhyme."

Perhaps it can be argued that the industry has changed a bit since his heyday, but he makes some strong points that I believe are timeless. I think there's a place for both types of rhymes in today industry if properly used.

Continuing his point while also defending the use of rhyming dictionaries to get out of a jam, he writes my favorite line of the book (so far):

"Please, if I may: It is bad writing that ruins rhymes -- not lists of words that do or do not rhyme."

Classic.

(*The book title is actually one word, but it keeps getting edited out as a naughty word, though I don't know why.)

If you're struggling with "obvious" rhyming, I suggest you listen to some hip-hop. That has some of the most perplexed rhyming.

I agree with Justin

Listen to some hip hop or rap and see the many many options.

It's not a science it's just expression. You have to go with what works best for the song and for you. I try not to use the obvious ones as much as possible.

Here is the word - passion

I would prefer to use

happen
imagine

before using - fashion

But if there is a need for the word "fashion" I'll use it, some clever way of working it in there. but not FORCE it.

My biggest problem with modern songs especially Country songs is how they force
so many things. I give loads of credit to writers in this genre because really how many times can you find another way to same the same exact things? So the cleverness and persistence and with the competition it's got my respect in so many ways. But the biggest set back for me is "lame" And when your trying to come up with new stuff constantly you'll really reach.. and that leaves you open for lameness.
Songs off the top of head like that "Ticks "song. Both forced and lame,trying to be clever and unique.

Hey I went to the top of the charts last night picked a song in the top 5 and it had the word "beer" in it. Yet Again! I guess nobody cared.

For me it's the "forcing" ideas and words that I try to avoid. It's really hard to do and I'm guilty of it all the time as well.

So wer'e worried about forcing rhymes and the charts force entire songs at us.

All the best

If we have the example:
------
how do you think this line finishes....

Through the tears, through the rain
Through the sorrow, through ?????????? (one or more words)
-------

I think we have a case of something expected. Solution for songwriters when expectation gets boring, like obvious rhymes.. don't rhyme! - use the line as a transition to another melody. Treat with a pleasant surprise..

Like:

Through the tears, through the rain
Through the sorrow, through the hard laughs
That always resisted the strain

.. or something (hey, I don't get paid here!)

It's ridiculous going on about obvious rhymes! Who writes'em - No one here, right?

HI Magne

Yes throw an occasional curve ball. gets them off the scent a bit

I wrote a pop song a ways back and it was about a person not being able to see themselves as OUT of the relationship. Ya know "can't handle the hurt" or the other person moving on.

And they sing

I don't see it in a photograph
Can't picture me under the broken glass
Someday somebody's gonna take my place
A different face in a heart shape frame

Okay you expect - Place to fall in place and rhyme with face

I got sooo much more out of that because I forced myself to not use the obvious rhyme. Now I got more imagery and support for my feelings and message.

And it sings like a bird - Perfectly!

I remember a few years back the A&R guy who produces & did Kelly Clarkson's first hit record tried to give me a tiny bit of insight on lyrics.

Only it helps more if before you open your mouth you read the lyrics to your own songs or the ones your paying money to.

"It was all pretend,we started out a s friends. back at school everything was cool"

He went on to say how the song had to be new and fresh, just like this one right?

Man I wish I had thought of that

And you're like "well she's a kid so I guess it's acceptable, then you find out that two grown men wrote it not her.

Listen you don't accept that lyric then try to to BS somebody afterwards lol....
There is nothing new & fresh about it or her.

But that's what the music biz is all about - Your suck, sucks. Our suck doesn't suck!" lol

The reason the thing with the book title happens is it's the name of another songwriting web forum. .net is the extension.

On the rhyme thing, I posted something about proper rhymes in here that I later deleted or never got posted right or something but it went along with what you said. They can be proper without being trite.

Two examples--Chesney's hit "How Forever Feels" starts with
"Big orange ball....sinking in the water....
something something something....couldn't get much hotter."

I think that's a proper rhyme and it blew me away. Another one is in Sugarland's "Gotta Be More Than This."

There's gotta be somethin more
Gotta be more than THIS
I need a little less hard time
I need a little more BLISS

The word "this" is pretty trite but the word "bliss" is quite unique.

Later on in the song there are these lines
"Armagedon could be knockin at my door
But I ain't gonna answer that's for sure"

I know "sure" and "pure" aren't proper rhymes but I thought those lines made up for it.

And for a very "unobvious" or "unexpected" rhyme, in You Belong With Me she uses:

that and
that

But it works


Tom

.
.


Last night I listened to Alan Jackson do his hit from the mid 90s called "Home." I noticed these lines which didn't actually rhyme at all but they didn't detract from the song at all either:

In a small town down in Georgia over forty years ago
Her maiden name was Music til she met that Jackson boy

And those were the opening lines of the song which was even more surprising to me.

This was the beginning of another verse after chorus:

My daddy skinned his knuckles on the cars that he repaired
He never earned much money but he gave us all he had

Granted Alan wrote the song and by that time could probably already call a lot of the shots in his career but the lines work well.
.
.

SL, interesting.

Ago and boy are an off rhyme. The "o" sound in both.

Repaired and had are really off but even they are a little related with the "a" sound.

The singing makes a big difference.

Tom

Now that is interesting. I thought the "ahhh" sound (as in "bad" and not as in "watch" in the "repaired" and "had" as well as the "d" sound tied them together. I didn't think "boy" and "ago" tied together at all despite the "o."

I hope that makes sense. The "ahh" sound is pronounced more like the "a" sound in "hashed" and "bad" and not the "a" sound in "watch" or the "o" sound in "posh."

Certainly has been an Enjoyable Thread, Y'all!

I'm not averse to hearing a "Familiar Rhyme" IF it works WELL for the line being-sung. "Perfect Rhyme" or Otherwise. Whatever's Chosen BUGS me if it's WAYYyy too-Obviously-DATED/Cliche.. OR...if it's WAYYyyy TOO-Creative and calls Overmuch-ATTENTION to-itself (& Distracts).

A whole String of Mono-Syllabic Perfect Rhymes USUALLY gets that Sing-Song-y Kids' Song Quality...so go for a batch of MULTI-Syllable stuff...like Good Dressing on a Salad.

And..as Marc already once shared with us, "Try not to suck." The greatest rhymes in the world Won't save a miserable storyline.

Gotta Scoot...Big Hugs,
Stan

This is a great resource, thank you

Wow--what a great discussion. Like MAB, as a songwriter, I have studied the heck out of this topic. But, as the creator of an online rhyming dictionary, I also have been in the trenches wrestling with what makes words rhyme and how to line them all up.

We recently overhauled www.wikirhymer.com to add near rhymes. Check it out, click here. That's our "you" RhymeSet (set of words that rhyme with you).

I have my own very strong opinions on perfect versus imperfect rhymes, but I'll leave that for another post.

Stan: You the man. Right as usual.

I wrote something once: "great lines make great rhymes."

Sometimes you can rhyme "love" and "above" or even "dove" or "you," "blue," and "true" and it just feels so right in the context of the line, nobody, including jaded publishers feel anything except that it's exactly what the line needed as a rhyme.

Other times, you can get all crafty and come up with some sexy off rhyme and it ends up sounding all crafty and rings hollow. Or not--it's a great near rhyme!!

Something nobody's commented on though. If the note the rhyme is falling on is held out by the singer, they tend to hold on the vowel sound in the rhyming syllable, so the near rhyme ends up "sounding" like a perfect rhyme to the listener's ear. Here's a perfect example: chorus from John Denver's "Country Roads"

Country ro.....ads
Take me ho.....me
To the place I belon....g
West virginia, mountain momma
Take me ho...me
Country ro...ads

Where I put the dots is where the singer holds out the vowel sound tricking our ear into "feeling" that all these rhymes are musical and natural. On the other hand, if you sang the words quickly (with the ending consonantal sounds), I suspect the song wouldn't have quite been the iconic career-maker it was for JD (may he RIP).

You can see more on my personal "arsenal" of near rhyming tricks here .

Interesting observation on the Take Me Home, Country Roads song. I've bookmarked the wikirhymer site.

Kevin

Through the tears, through the rain
Through the sorrow, through MY BRAIN...

Guess I'm fond of that ".03%"..BUT you CAN make a Perfect Rhyme that IS on the Un-expected Side. (&..JMO..if it's on the Comedic Side, you'll have a better chance of getting away with it.)

I've cured my Urge to discuss the Gestalt of Rhyming by Googling "Gestalt"..then "Wilhelm Wundt"..then Structural Linguistics" this AM.

Instead, let's briefly analyze the Rhymes in Jason Aldean's recent Big Hig, "Big Green Tractor", which Marc mentioned had $20K worth of rented Tractors perched around the circumference of Nashville to properly Hype It recently...

V1 Down/out/around/(in)...
V2 Hair/somewhere/care/(here)...

CH Tractor/faster/pasture/matter
Want to/on to/rather/tractor...

V3 Around/down/out/house

(CH Repeats)

BR Seat/me/(yeah)...

(CH Repeats)

Tag Town/around/(yeah)...

NONE of these Rhymes are all THAT great an "Intellectual Stretch." Tractor/Faster/Pasture/Matter... 3-outta-4 are on the "Perfect" side in that All-Important Chorus. The Overall MAJORITY here ARE on the "Perfect Side."

Yeah, Taylor Swift IS prolly The Next-Big-Thing...BUT..Simple-Sounding "Simple" Songs STILL Sell to Many of Us Simpler-Folks/Ignore it at your peril.

&..I'd expect to hear "boots/roots" for a long time to come.

Hear's Hopin'!
Big Hugs,
Stan

"Next big thing"???

Stan, she sold more records in '08 than anybody in the freaking world (source) .

Wikipedia says she earned $18 million last year. (source) .

Stan, that said, you are right on again. Don't confuse "simple" sounding with simple. If you really study the girl's lyrics, they are pretty damn inventive.

Moreover, her greatest strength in my view is that she writes in a simple conversational tone in a language her peers totally understand and she conveys the emotions they feel every day. She connects with them and they connect with her--works every time!!

She wraps all that up in really fresh melodies and that's why she's the hottest thing in the biz right now. (Oh yea, and she's easy on the eyes.)

Yea, she studied at the knee of master songwriter Liz Rose and co-wrote a lot with Liz, but check out the girl's sole writes like "Fifteen" and "Love Story" or "Our Story."

Think about how well you wrote at 18. This girl is an amazing talent.

Think about this too. She's on an indie label. RCA could a had her but essentially passed because the deal they offered her was what we call in Nashville "The Artist Protection Program." Once you're in it, we never hear from you again.

So, it wasn't a "big machine" that made her (even though her label is "Big Machine Records." Isn't it ironic).

I would suggest that aspiring songwriters should be studying Taylor Swift with great diligence. We all have something to learn from her. If you think we don't, stay on the couch and good luck with your career.

I sometimes wonder why we keep trying to rhyme. It's like an old habit, and near rhymes REALLY make me question it.

I'm not a'gin 'em...but I sure wonder sometimes why we bother.

No point in studying Taylor swift unless you are writing country music.

PS Why oh why do people assume that COUNTRY is the only kind of music worth writing and that we all aspire to write country songs? There are other music genres and styles and each has its own rules and role models. It just so happens that most of the strict country music disciplines, rules and traditions are a no no in many other genres.

Big Jim: Wrong Again (ha, ha)!

The rhymes used in country music are used in all genres.
road/go, eye/tried, summer/other, colors/another (that's a cool one)/thunder.....

Thunder (Boys Like Girls)

Today is a winding road
That's taking me to places that I didn't want to go, whoa
Today in the blink of an eye
I'm holding on to something and I do not know why I tried

I tried to read between the lines
I tried to look in your eyes
I want a simple explanation; what I'm feeling inside
I gotta find a way out
Maybe there's a way out

Your voice was the soundtrack of my summer
Do you know you're unlike any other?
You'll always be my thunder, and I said
Your eyes are the brightest of all the colors
I don't wanna ever love another
You'll always be my thunder
So bring on the rain
And bring on the thunder

Today is a winding road
Tell me where to start and tell me something I don't know, whoa
Today I'm on my own
I cant move a muscle and I cant pick up the phone, I don't know

And now I'm itching for the tall grass
And longing for the breeze
I need to step outside, just to see if I can breathe
I gotta find a way out
Maybe there's a way out

Your voice was the soundtrack of my summer
Do you know you're unlike any other?
You'll always be my thunder, and I said
Your eyes are the brightest of all the colors
I don't wanna ever love another
You'll always be my thunder
So bring on the rain
And bring on the thunder

Yeah I'm walking on a tightrope
I'm wrapped up in vines
I think Ill make it out but you just gotta give me time
Strike me down with lightning
Let me feel you in my veins
I wanna let you know how much I feel your pain

Today is a winding road
That's taking me to places that I didn't want to go, whoa

Your voice was the soundtrack of my summer
Do you know you're unlike any other?
You'll always be my thunder, and I said
Your eyes are the brightest of all the colors
I don't wanna ever love another
You'll always be my thunder
So bring on the rain
And bring on the thunder

Your voice was the soundtrack of my summer
Do you know you're unlike any other?
You'll always be my thunder
So bring on the rain
Oh baby bring on the pain
And listen to the thunder

Hey Kevin.....Rhymes are rhymes and are used in all genres of music. My point was more generally aimed at the suggestion that we study Taylor swift as we all have something to learn from her. It sums up the Blues Bros quote "we play both kinds of music here...... both Country and Western" I was just reminding the type who assume that everybody writes and listens to only country that there are writers from ALL genres of music who use this site and country is NOT the be all.
As for Boys Like Girls "Thunder" I had never heard of them or the song till you mentioned it. Having heard it I have not missed out on much but at least it is not country.
I was intrigued by you mentioning Thunder as Thunder are a great British rock band and pals of mine. Now they are a band worth checking out.
Back to my original point you will find that country music DOES have its own peculiar foibles including rhyming which does not always crossover well into other sorts of music.

These guys?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3s4oQ_aCag

Some solid rock and roll.

Kevin

I would suggest studying any really good songwriter, regardless of genre is worthwhile. From Gibert & Sullivan to Irving Berlin, Dylan, the Beatles, Hank Sr., Willie Nelson, Sting, Marvin Gaye, Lionel Ritchie, Carol King, Eagles, CSN, Neil Young, Jackson Brown, Jewel, Alanis Morissette, Dave Matthews, John Mayer and on an on.

Right now I'm listening to India Arie and she's a terrific writer. BTW, I mostly write country, but listen to a lot of hip hop, current R&B and rock too. And yes, I listen to Taylor Swift and I think I can learn from anybody that is connecting with millions of fans around the world, many way outside her genre.

A very successful Nashville publisher once told me, after a million in sales on a "country" album, everything else is by definition crossover (i.e., non-country buyer). So what Taylor is doing is valued, hell loved, by folks other than country music lovers.

I dare say, if Taylor Swift had come out 10 years ago, she'd be selling albums on the scale of Shania Twain (probably 10 million on each of her first two albums).

Any way--that's my take.

Thanks for the link Kevin.....Yes the very chappies. Listen to some of their early stuff.....Solid rock the way it should be played. If you get the chance check out their live DVD it is amazing...they have the audience in the palm of their hands.....OH and BTW they are not afraid to play covers either. Gimme some Lovin especially is like their sig tune. Somehow it is my bands as well. The guitarist "Luke Morley" is not bad for a left hander imagine what he would be like if he could play right handed. LOL

(Low Life In High Places) By Thunder
Mama tell your children not to go
Down to the city where the desperate people go
And mama don't you let them stray
They won't find piece of mind in such a lonely place

Wannabes and losers all trying to get a break
They don't give a damn they'll do whatever it takes
If they climb the ladder they get to play for higher stakes
That's why there's low life in high places

Mama things have changed since you were young
When you scream in the dead of night
Now no one ever comes
And the poor man, he's cast as the villain and the thief
See him down on the street begging for enough to eat

Waiting on the corner, I saw her waiting for the man
When the limo pulled up I saw what was changing hands
I should've tried to warn her and make her understand
There is low life in high places


There is low life like you never even knew
There is low life and it lives in me and you
But we don't all let it through

Don't you let em go, you've got to have some pity
Don't you let em go
You've got to keep em away from the big bad city

Waiting on the corner, I saw her waiting for the man
When the limo pulled up I saw what was changing hands
I should've tried to warn her and make her understand

Mama tell your children not to go
Down to the city where the desperate people go
And mama don't you let them stray
They won't find piece of mind in such a lonely place

Interesting comments:

(IMO) Near rhymes may be in vogue, until no one buys them any more--I have been listening to RHYMES and REASONS for years--I like some that are expected, if the idea of the song is enhanced. An unexpected rhyme may add flavor, to the sauce of the song, coupled with colorful language of normal conversation. If the predicted rhyme scheme makes the song, one you think most people would buy, then use it! WANTED: ONLY THE GREAT SONG! Clever rhyme schemes.

Sometimes, an idea of a song is so powerful, the song needs no rhyme.

A Survival Guide to the New Music Industry, by Justin Goldberg, has a lot of Information behind the scenes of Music Biz and A & R-- Lawyers and Accountants, Guard the Coffers! But Artists Need Great Songs--For whatever RHYME or REASON-IT'S WHAT EVER IT TAKES!

Mackie Humphries

Dido!

And even if you don't listen to it, buy it or even like it. If you are a professional you'll "GET IT"

A BIG Part of writing songs to me anyway is having others relate to them, feel something from them.
She has accomplished that big time.. Lots to be proud of and happy about in her circle...

Hi Jim

I'll do my best to avoid a long thread about popular music again

1- She writes POP music.... That is why she is where she is chart wise. Pure Country artists rarely sit on the HOT CHART top 10.. meaning the mixed bag chart, the HARDEST one to reach.
Hip Hop dominates that chart month after month week after week.

Taylor is WAY closer to Avril Lavine in her appeal to the young than to Reba or Loretta Lynn. Our own Heather sounds WAY WAY more country than Taylor Swift...


Songwriters - Ever tell somebody at the store or at the bank or any non musical place that your a songwriter?

They kinda look at you funny and the first thing they think of if they start discussing it with you is.. Oh have you had any hits? You mean like the songs on the radio? Oh you write the words?

They don't think "hey your the bassist in a band who came up with the chords or music to a song"

"Oh you write songs for TV? Or commercials or plays"

Oh you just write music? Instrumentals is that songwriting"

They think RADIO so that means Popular Music. Whats most popular
1. Hip Hop
2. Country
3. Kid Pop - Think Hanna Montanna

Of course there's the songwriters who are the artist.

In the songwriting circles like here we all know about the can't write for singer/songwriters or Bands LAW! lol

Hardly ANYBODY here writes any hip hop. R&B or Rap
So Country Music would be the number one style to write, and refer too. Think about it, even teen pop is rarely heard here in comparison to Country styled songs or general folk, and also non commercial stylized songs.

Songwriters can also get very cornered in. Even if they like a whole variety of music how often do they write, produce and promote it? Watch most writers and you'll see patterns.

But for commercial reasons,pitching,biz aspects etc.. etc.. Country is on the top choice list for "The Songwriter"

I agree Mike.......That said in the UK country music is way way down the list of genres most listened to.

Well if you throw in the hip hop and cheezed out nonsense.. I'm moving there bro

I LOVE all kinds of music but when it comes right down to it. Rock will always rule. And your talking to an R&B Classic Soul freak lol...

Plain & Simple the melting pot that Rock has is way way way beyond anything ever. It is by far the most diverse.
I name five artists that were HUGE and they sound, NOTHING like each other at all. Staggering blends of stuff involved. It just steam rolls over everything in the last hundred years. No Contest.

To bad it's a dead end to the songwriters.

I had a bad (sorta) habbit of using "too obvious"rhymes
then my dog ate my Caricorn rhyming dictionary.(really)
I then discovered a little program called "rhyme it" at http://analogx.com that gives me many options, obvious, as well as un obvious I love it since I do most of my lyric writing on my computer.
it's a small, but very effective program.