JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Mentor Questions Forum ASCAP (or BMI) listing with no publisher

I saw a listing in someone's ASCAP catalog with him listed as a writer, but there was no publisher listed.

How does that work, in terms of royalties? Does the writer automatically get the full 100%, or does the publisher 50% wind up in limbo somewhere?

The songwriter is probably self published. There are always two halfs of a song.

MAB

Let's assume ASCAP collect performance royalties for the song. They know who the writer is. Is there a way (in ASCAP, or even BMI) to declare yourself a "self-publisher?" How does he, as a self-publisher, collect his publisher half of performance royalties -- does ASCAP give it to him or does it get collected in another way????

I am registered at BMI as both a writer and publisher. I registered my publishing company name as a "DBA" with my state.

I don't have anything currently signed to a publisher. If someone wants to cut one of your songs they will most likely have a publisher they work with. If you haven't already you will then need to join one of the PRO's.

I am currently signed with BMI as both writer and publisher.

I'm trying to understand how it works with a writer who registers a song as a writer but is *not* registered as a publisher -- what are the logistics?

There is not much point in registering a song with a PRO unless it is being cut and released.

How many self published writer/artists do it and how sucessful are they? Who knows.

I am BMI. A few songs that have been released have been registered but the publisher did it.

With BMI, you automatically get the publishers share if there is none listed. With ASCAP, it's my understanding you have register as a publisher to get the publishing. With SOCAN, like BMI... if there is no publisher registered, you get 100% of writing and 100% of publishing.

This is someone I've written a couple of songs with, and we have not published them. It's still an open question whether we will try to find a publisher or do it ourselves. I'm just thinking ahead.

I noticed that for his self-published CD, he registered them with ASCAP as writer only. It seems to me that if we *wanted* to co-publish our songs, he'd need to be an ASCAP publisher as well (since I'm BMI and can't handle his writer rights through them and my own BMI publishing company).

If, in the future, we were to interest a publisher, obviously it wouldn't be an issue; but if, in the future, we were able to find a placement for the song and wanted to publish it, I would think he'd need to be registered as as ASCAP publisher.

I was just surprised that he was able to register songs with ASCAP as a writer only, from his CD. So, my question was really to get a better understanding of what that means (and whether it was even advisable or not!)

Hey Z,

I'm with ASCAP, and have only registered the songs, with the publisher left blank.

I figure if I'm ever lucky enough to pick up a publisher, or more lucky still, to get a well known artist cut, then they're going to want the publishing, or No 1 publisher at least.

I can register as the publisher as well, but am thinking that an unemcumbered song is just easier for business should that situation happen.

But am I right in my logic ? Or lack there of. LOL

cheers, niteshift

niteshift,

Thanks. That may answer my question. To you, what is the benefit of putting the song in your ASCAP catalog without a publisher? If you're not selling copies of the song (or getting any radio play or performance monies), isn't copyrighting it enough?

I don't bother with copyright. Maybe I should. My songs get some airplay ( only regional, and small internatinal ) no downloads , but a few thousand streams a month, so I figure if one of them takes off, I can put myself in there as he publisher if need be, or sell out ( oh, I wish ! ) to a more established artist if needed. To me, it makes sense to make business easy. If a mainstream artst wanted one of my songs, then I can't figure out how to re-gig the percentages ( publishing wise ). You can't lower a given percentage, so how would I change the publishers' share in their favour? All speculation of course, but I wouldn't mind being in that "difficult" position I guess.

cheers, niteshift

OK, I see. My feeling has been that copyright protects me now, and I would only put a song out in my BMI catalog when it's actually time to publish it -- that is, when it's going out to market, will be available for sale, and/or place-able in media.

If a song is still in play, still looking for a publisher or recording, or needing better demos, etc., then I didn't see any reason to put it in a catalog.

I only have two songs actually "published" -- one is on a CD by a Renn Faire act, co-published with the artists; and the other has been recorded for a single release either late this year or early next year, also co-published with the artist.

See what you mean. The material I release is finished, as in broadcast finished, so I just plug away, and feel that it should be registered. It's small odds, but ya never know.

cheers, niteshift

Z.,

Good thread. The big recap point is that the publisher is the person who owns the rights to publish. If no one else does, then the songwriter does. What you do when you register the song, is just that, register it. If you don't register the publisher, that doesn't mean there isn't one, only that it wasn't registered. There's always a publisher.

Similarly, at every gig, there's always a hum or buzz

All the Best,
Mike

Mike:

Just to clarify (as it mostly makes sense now) -- in that case, would ASCAP default the publisher half of any performance payments to the named writer, under the assumption the writer currently owned the publishing rights as well?

(Realistically, I would think a song that had any serious chance of making money would either attract a publisher, or the artist would be advanced in their career enough to set up a publisher company of their own; but in this hypothetical.....?)

Z.

I just spoke with Eric at ASCAP and he said, are you ready for this? "No, we won't collect on it." In other words, if you don't register a publisher, they won't collect money for publishing. So, I'd highly recommend that if any ASCAP member is registering a song, that they register also for publishing.

Thanks, Mike. That answers that. I thought there was a wrinkle I was missing.

Next time I talk to my friend I'll point that out to him - encourage him to set up a publishing identity now since he has the songs in ASCAP already.

Appreciate all the help!

On the BMI Work Registration Form there is a block that can be checked if there is no publisher. So BMI would presumably collect publisher's royalities and pay them to the songwriter(s) if there is no publisher.

Hey Mike,

Do you mean they won't collect the publishing portion, or nothing at all ? i.e. zip, on the song as a whole.

I really don't want to enter myself as the publisher, as apparantly the publisher can't be subsequently changed. ( or can it ? ) I'd like a real publisher in that spot, rather than the pretend one, which is me.

cheers, niteshift

With SOCAN you can assign publishing or a portion of publishing at any time by just letting them know.

Z, You're welcome.

Ray, I don't know about BMI, but it is also possible that if you do not list a publisher, tnen BMI will not collect for the publisher.

Nite, according to Eric at ASCAP, if you don't list a publisher, then they will not collect the publisher's portion.

Everett, I should have asked as a follow up question how one goes about changing a registration from no publisher to publisher. Good on SOCAN.

All the Best,
Mike

I would think with the millions of songs and registrations coming in all the time, the feelings of ASCAP, BMI, SOCAN,etc would be that if you don't care enough to list all the nessasary information as far as publishers, etc. why should they be interested? It is your song.

One thing everybody should probably do is to form their own publishing company. it might end up being just a "holding tank" for information, but would list your song in case something happens. In my experience, publishing is going to someone else until you are establishing yourself.
But it beats leaving the space blank.

In this day and age, we are all our own publishers, pluggers, artists, producers, management firms, etc. until someone else finds enough potential in it to take it off your hands.

MAB

Hey Mike,

With ASCAP, you just go into the file and "add publisher" . That updates the system, and away you go. Thing is, you can't decrease a percentage ( I tried to decease my OWN percentage to a co-writer, and it wouldn't let me do it ) So, if I list my own publishing company as the No1 publisher, am I going to have problems in the future ( oh, I hope ! ) if a real publisher needs/wants/expects the rights on a song ? I'd rather just leave it blank, until I know the real deal.

Hey Marc, yes I agree with your comments. The most famous example out our way, would have to be the kids group " The Wiggles " They never gave up their publishing to anyone else, are self managed, and grossed $50 million last year. Not bad for a bunch of guys that met in teachers training college, formed a local band, and the rest is history.

cheers, niteshift

Mike: I formed my own publishing company, mainly for my own songs, and registered it with SOCAN. I own 100% of the writers share and 100% of the publishing on most of my songs. I had a record label express interest in several of my songs (for one of their artist) that I already had cut and on the market, they wanted the publishing on the songs, which I refused at first, but I later agreed to split the publishing (a mistake) to get more exposuer for the songs. All I had to do was to go into my account (on line) with SOCAN and change my registeration of those songs and write this other publishing company in as a percentage owner of said songs. But you can not reverse it without the other company agreeing.

With BMI on the Work Registration form you list all the splits that will be in force on that recording. That is how BMI will pay out on that recording by that Artist.

If someone else records that song and you put a different split of the PRO royalities on that Work Registration form that is how the money will be paid out.

It is up to the copyright owner of how they register a cut with the pro. The pro only follows the registration form.

Hey Ray,

Thank you ! All is crystal clear now. It's per cut recording not per song. Hence the need for the ISRC number ? If re-cut, then re-register ?

Ahh, it all makes sense now. As someone who has only ever had mild airplay, and zip royalties, I've never been bothered with it. Another of lifes little mysteries solved. THANK YOU !

cheers, niteshift

As I get a song to ready for broadcast standards i register it with ASCAP as the writer, listing appropriate co-write credits, and with the publisher involved also listed. All songs that are not published through someone else, i list my own publishing company, at this point i truly am the publisher, knowing those rights can be reassigned during negotiations if an artist or licensing opportunity arise from the music. i have always felt it's better to list myself as the publisher in the interim and have any interest or credits come back to me. there is alot of activity in the grass roots music community on self published material. my advice to all writers is to register your works with your PRO as both the writer and publisher until such time there is a publisher whom you are making a deal with to further exploit the work.

Thanks Moker. I might just go back and fill in the blanks.

PS - see you'e doing Ok on the IAC Country song thing. Good stuff ! Weekend Blitz has alwas been a favourite of mine, it should do well.

cheers, niteshift

I had thought it was difficult to reassign publishing once you had registered a publisher, with ASCAP or BMI. Does anyone have a definitive answer on whether it's pretty easy if you ask in the right way,, or whether there's resistence to making that change?

thanks Nite, i haven't been back over there since i entered it, i'll have to check it out...mj

OK,
You don't register with a publisher. However if you submit songs to a Publisher and you sign a Publishing Contract with the publisher he then owns the song for the duration of the contract. If the song isn't cut and you have a reversion clause, (Recommended) then the song reverts to you.

If the Publisher gets a song cut then he will register the song with the PRO you and he belongs to.

There is no use to register your songs with your PRO until the song is cut and released to the public.

I wish I could be more insightful on the issue, but all I've heard is to hold onto your BMI/ASCAP publishing rights for dear life, cheers!