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Hey all,

I'm posing this question here for a friend of mine. It seems that one of her songs, Rock Me, is being used without her permission in a video.

http://www.mefeedia.com/entry/stripper-method-q-a-of-the-day-9-rock-me/13200591

And while we think the publicity is wonderful, she is receiving no payments, nor is there any link included.

At this point, she's hoping that a letter(I'm advising against a "threatening" tone) may be enough to get the legalities/payments settled without bringing in a lawyer.

Any other advice?

Thanks

Midnite


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Does she have the song registered for copyright? If so she SHOULD CONTACT A LAWYER and have him write a letter to the user(s) of the song. That is the only way to proceed. Writing a letter herself will and may be ignored. A letter from a lawyer could also be ignored but the threat of court action in most cases will be all that is needed to settle the issue.


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Hey Midnite,

I agree with Ray. If your friend can afford an attorney who specializes in entertainment, I'd have them write a letter. In the meantime it looks like she and her cowriter are already trying to contact them via the site itself. How's that working? Has she gotten any response.

Hey, I don't pole dance any more, but that song would have been great in my act.

All the Best,
Mike


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

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How did they get the song in the first place? Was it pitched to them?

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Hey Midnite,

I am interested in what happens in this case. I have been wondering a lot of things lately because I see songs all the time used in these Homeade "You Tube" videos. They are famous songs, unknown songs, originals, covers, everything under the map, and I am sure they are not liscencing all these songs. They are used as backgrounds for sports videos, I have recently viewed hundreds from Micheal Jordan and Tiger Woods, others are backgrounds for people's video games, etc. And due the reports on the news, and industry trade newsletters I get, no one is making money on this stuff.
There was a recent report about a female singer who's video had been viewed 20 million times. And the writers of the song were not paid a dime. I don't know how many downloads there were but it is sure easy to download or save anything on You Tube, so this might fall into that catagory.
When you have a major label hit, you are not paid for the videos. They are considered advertising to promote the record and downloads. So you might find out that your friend is another casulty of the internet world.
I don't know what is going to happen to music. some people will make money, but most people, I'm afraid are going to find most of the world is free.

MAB

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Midnite,

Did view the link. These women didn't even know what the song was. They were having to look it up. I can't imagine your friend will make any money off of this. She can probably sue or do a "cease and desist" order, but this is pretty much what I was thinking. People are going around the ineternet and scanning songs or someone is putting them to whatever they use.
It's always been the danger of the Internet, and has been what so many trips to Washington by NSAI, ASCAP, BMI,etc. and others, the control of intellectual property. Having all this stuff out there means control is lost.
As I have been seeing so many of these videos (don't know why I have been into You Tube lately, I kind of go to look at one thing and then get pulled into twenty five more "related" videos)
I have been wondering the same thing. I mean, I know Paul McCartney didn't liscence "Yesterday" for somebody's private "Warcraft" video.
We are in a very weird place in music. There is a HUGE group of people that are arguing in Congress, through the internet, television, in world courts, for totally doing away with copyright and that all music, art, poetry, books, etc. should be free. It is getting very weird. If I were all of you, I would pay attention to what is going on in governemnts. One day we all may wake up to find copyrights simply don't exist anymore.

MAB

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That's it, Marc. It's hard to fight when so many musicians themselves don't think illegal filesharing is stealing. It's the old argument. We'll never be able to have any power base unless we organize, but musicians and artists are too "independent" to organize.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

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this will depend on how the writer goes about it...with it being on a dvd that they have for sale, this clip confirming the promotion of the dvd and that song being used to promote the sale of the dvd...i'd suggest a little background check on the strength of the company who produced the video, if they are strong there is a good chance an attorney will take the case for a percentage. They have committed copyright infringement, they have used a copywritten piece of intellectual property without the licensing rights to do so. Timing is also something to look into as they may have filed and payment is pending...it would naturally be nearly a year after the release before a p.r.o. would pay her the publishers or writers share if it was filed by the producers of the dvd. This is the kind of thing that infuriates me though...if they have used the song and not licensed it, or paid the statutory rate per copy, then i'd call their bluff and make 'em pay even if i had to do a split with an attorney. doesn't sound like alot of $$ here, but hey what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong.

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It's not a fair comparison to link the promotional music video that was produced with the intention of using it to advertise an artist's or band's music with the unauthorized use of someone's music on a You Tube clip that may be downloaded. The same rules that apply to licensing music for TV and Film should be applied to anyone party that uses music in their You Tube Upload. I would think that most websites that present the creative property of another use legal language that prevents the site from being liable for copyright infringement if a member posts something that constitutes copyright infringement. The copyright owner should either get a statutory rate like Moker said or be contacted about a licensing fee to cover the uploader's right to use the music. The sad thing is that most parties uploading such material on You Tube have little knowledge of copyright law, little money to pay a usage fee, little desire to pay even if they knew they should, and little chance of getting prosecuted and reaping the rightful consequences of their copyright violations.

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Hi Midnite

as it happens yesterday when I was walking through the Music Row area (well actually humbly crawling on my way to drop off a request to submit) I happened to pass a law office whose sign and title said they focus on copyright issues in music.....tommorow I may just drop in there and see if they will give me a few minutes of their time.....if they arent complete jerks I will offer to post a link for them in JPF or suggest they do that on their own.....offer some kinda discount-free initial consultation-whatever....will let you and others know how my venture into their office goes.......music copyright law is a highly specialized area and I hope they are a good resource for those who feel when all else has been tried-consult a lawyer......you never want that as a first option-but when you are looking at Plan B-you definitely want someone not more experienced in divorces and auto accidents etc...............so they might be worth me checking em out........will let y'all know

Tom

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Sounds like a good one for Stu. Perhaps we should get a "Bat Light" or something to shine in the sky when we need his viewpoint on something. = )

You do need to be careful that the cost of having attorney's contact them doesn't end up costing you a ton with no recourse to get attorney fees back. That's what keeps most folks from doing anything on these types of things. Bad situation.

I think many times people use music and post YouTube and elsewhere without any thought at all that someone actually owns that etc. It never crosses their mind because our society has so devalued songwriters and artists.

Brian


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Don't know how I would handle something like this, but you should do your homework and make sure it would be profitable for you to go after them once the attorney's cut is subtracted. I do believe that the high cost of attorney's fees is responsible for many not fighting for their rights in all types of cases. And it is why one day legal insurance will probably be as commonplace as medical insurance, especially if we continue to be the litigious society that we are. Too bad the artist will probably have to put the case on a scale and weigh it.

Hey, this might be a good case for Judge Jeanine Pirro's TV show!

Last edited by beechnut79; 05/15/09 01:45 PM.
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I wonder why we have this situation in the first place.
Why is it not a crime to steal someones music? It seems to be considered a civil matter, not criminal. mad

Didn't ASCAP get started because of this very same thing? A bar using someones music without permission or compensation?
Where does the PRO fit into this?

As a group, (55,000 is it?) wouldn't an organized effort by JPFers to contact our so called representatives in congress to try to effect some changes in the laws be worth the effort?
It's bad enough the radio stations and other broadcast media don't want to pay anything now it is common thievery amongst ourselves.
I cannot believe someone who appears to be as intelligent as the folks in this video are don't realize they are stealing this person music. I bet if they saw a video with themselves in it promoting a product they'd sure be yelling THIEF! WHERE'S MY CUT?

America seems to be in the dark ages compared to the rest of the world when it comes to intellectual property rights.

Last edited by Bill Robinson; 05/15/09 03:09 PM.

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Bill,

I don't know if you have been paying attention but this is world wide. The biggest case in the world just went down two weeks ago with a company called Pirate Bay. They were organizers of the biggest illegal file sharing and piracy site out there.They are proud of it,which is why they call it "Pirate Bay." They are just the latest Napster, Kazaa, etc. It went down in Sweden.
There were four guys involved and each were sentenced to a year in prison and a $900 thousand dollar fine each. They have refused to pay it and the appeal is pending which should take about another five years. Then, if they lose they are going to pay it through a new pay scheme where they pay the fine 13 cents at a time. Will never be paid. They simply refuse and the courts really can't do anything.
Other suits and legislation have ended up the same way to the point that the RIAA, recording institute have dropped all lawsuits. Every time they do anything, there is a press assault on them and they look like demons.
Piracy, illegal usage, etc. of intellectual property of all kind is simply rampant every where. It is being fought on every front but it is kind of like putting out a forrest fire with a bucket of water mixed with gasoline. Every time one fire is dampaned, fifty more pop up.
Even having 55,000 of JPF, thousands of Song Rampers, ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, etc, trying to fight this, we are up against hundreds of millions of people who simply have no inclination of even considering that intellectual property is worth money. They simply have no desire to consider it. And this has become generational. You have an entitlement generation that not only has been brought up that way, but have gotten it.
So that is kind of the nature of the beast these days. I don't know how to fight it and nobody else really does either. I was in Washington DC about 7 years ago with a contingent of NSAI members lobbying Congress on these very issues. Two days before the Napster and Kazaa people were there with more people and more money. There case is that there really is no way to police this so why try?
With other things going on like the rule a couple of days ago moving through Congress that will now pay artists and musicians for songs on radio, look for the compensation to songwriters to be cut back even more. In addition to radio formats changing to avoid paying higher rates.We are not in a very good time for being compensated for music I am afraid. We are in a very good time for being able to get music to the masses. Getting them to pay for something they believe is free, is another matter all together.

MAB

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You're really going to go after some random person posting some dinky web videos for using your song? Come on. Not only would it not be worth the money, it's not worth your time either. IF there were any actual money involved on THEIR end, I'd say it MIGHT be worth it, but this is just free content.


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Marc
It was just wishful thinking on my part.
I have read about some of the cases and followed along a bit.
I was with my Grandson the other day and he had a new I-pod.
I gave him the money for it as it was his birthday. That was Saturday. Sunday he showed me the I-pod. He already had about 75 songs on it.
I asked him where he got the songs. You can guess where. He downloaded them from my Nephews computer. Free.

I said " So you stole them". He looked surprised and his answer was no, he let me have them, he said it was OK.

How do you fight that? I dunno.

It would seem the only answer is to go after the internet sites and have much stiffer penalties. One year in jail for a major theft like that seems to trivialize it.
Ten years mandatory might work.

When's your next get together? I'd like to be there.


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At the risk of sounding like an idiot...

Why can't the organizations that would be policing this problem just hire somebody to constantly surf the internet with google and aol and anything else they can to find these new sites as they pop up and disable them or otherwise "do their stuff"? Just a thought.

Last edited by whtnck; 05/15/09 06:04 PM.

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Bill,

That is what they have done, gone after the Internet sites. They shut one down and ten other ones sprout up. they are fearless, just like the Mexican drug dealers. They are coming and daring anyone to stop them. I don't know how we deal with any of it.
There are so many issues going on right now. And they get inner related. Things that don't seem to have much to do with things do. Here is an example:

The goverment take over of Chrysler and GM, have led to the Obama Administration cutting advertising budgets from those companies. What does that do? That means less revenue coming into radio, whose main revenue comes from advertising. That means less music. Less music means what? Less opportunities for songs. Or just plain changing formats.
People look at every single business as huge piles of money laying around. "Take it, they've got it." What has radio been going through lately? De regulation, more stations, more competition, pod casting, Internet radio, satallite radio. they have been losing revenue all over the place, so they lay off DJ's and go to pre-programed formats. Less DJ's, less music choice. Now, in the time of less revenue, they are hit by Congress enacting legisaltion that they now have to pay artists and musicians. Hey, I think we all should be paid. But we are all losing. What does that do? It means radio formats will go to talk, or other ways or generating revenue, or just plain close.
That is what is happening. Buisness are simply going out of business. That's where all the job losses are coming from. Small businesses, medium businesses, etc. IT is all related.
The downloading thing has been a problem from day one. It has now just hit in a million different ways even worse than most people thought. When you are a struggling writer artist, like the subject of this initial thread, you think, "Hey, my stuff will be on a You Tube video seen by millions of people. Cool." That is until you start getting your songs taken from you by thousands of people. That is what we are all up against.

MAB

PS: The third Sunday party is this Sunday. I am in Fla. but you should go.

MAB

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Nick,

That is exactly what has been happening for years. There have been hundreds of thousands of man and woman hours surfing the net, searching out sites, etc. That is what have led to prosecutions. But even when there are convictions, they refuse to pay, claim poverty, etc. And they are not making money either. For the most part, they are just facilitating ways for people to get music, like getting a file from someone on your computer, and passing that on to other people. They don't really make money off of this as much as relish in the crime of taking something from someone else they didn't pay for.
I think these are the same people that spread computer viruses, do identity theft, etc. They are college geeks that sit around and find ways to break codes, steal info, etc. It is the thrill of the chase. There is a guy who has been doing this to Hollywood very badly. Streaming movies before they even get into the theaters, and sending them out on the Internet. Killing some movie companies trying for big releases.
The majority of people are just like Bill's Grandson. They don't know anything about music or writers. It is on the radio. They hear it, they don't have to pay for it. It is free. Anytime you zero in on anyone like the RIAA has done with thousands of suits, they are just normal people. The little old lady who's 12 year old downloaded 3000 songs. The little old lady doesn't know anything about music. She just bought the computer to let the grandkids play games. They didn't know it cost money for songs because all their friends have all these things on their i-pods, even shared it with them. That is file sharing.
So what are we going to do guys? What you are going through right now, has been the plague the industry has been talking about, paying lawyers and firms and congressmen and senators for 15 years. You guys are all just seeing it now because you are posting your music out there, trying to get people to hear what you do. trying to make contacts in the industry, etc. Now you can't get publishers to listen to your songs, find "no unsolicited material" signs every publisher you go to, can't get artists to take your CD's, are debating whether "pay to play" on Taxi or Broadjam, or Pump Audio or CD Baby is going to be the best use of your money or music. How do you make money?
Well, that is what we in the professional side of the music industry have been plagued with for years. We saw it coming but there was not much we were ever going to be able to do any way.
People complain because they have to spend so much money on demos. Song pluggers cost money, all the ancilary things involved in trying to get your music out costs money. And very little bring any return back.
So in your discussions on this and other threads, give some thought to overall perspective on these and all subjects. It is not just about "writing up some songs, doing a CD and getting them out there." It is about a TON of issues most people think have nothing to do with them. It does.
And by the way, it is not called "Starving for your art" for nothing. Bill ASCAP was founded to collect on sheet music sales in the 20's. Steven Foster died with 37 cents in his pocket. That is what they started out doing. BMI felt it wasn't doing their job and collecting from things like Broadway. Radio came in and the Hit Parade. For a while it was relativly easy because there were not as many outlets. Fewer radio stations, etc. now music is everywhere, coming from every direction, going in ten million directions at the literal speed of light. So if any of you can figure out how to catch light and get someone to pay money for it, there are a lot of people who would be very interested in your solutions.

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Sorry I was absent for a few days, but this discussion has been interesting.

Stef finally tracked it down to a Music Library she'd signed a non-exclusive contract with back in '06, when she was still getting started. I don't know which one.

So, she is getting paid...Her first check was almost double digits. On the positive side, she has been in contact with the producer of the video, in a friendly way, and once she gets her own Site up and running again, they are going to put up a link on their video.

And that's where this one stands.

Thanks for all the input.

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Well Bob
That is something positive for a change.
It's good to hear.
Thanks for the update.


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It all boils down to morals. It seems each generation has less and less comprehension of what is right and wrong, if it feels right, do it. Even Churches were using music illegally, not paying the copyright owners, until they got sued, that is how CCLI got started. Now churches have to pay a fee to CCLI to legally use the music they use, CCLI pays a royalty to copyright owners, much like radio.

It would be better if RIAA spent a few million dollars trying to educate the people about the copyright law, even then only the morally honest people would obey it. Most people don't see anything wrong about stealing music, they couldn't care less if you or I lose our shirts putting out this music, but please keep putting it out so we can get our fix. There would be no drug dealers making fortunes if the people could get their drugs for free. If the morals of people don't change, I see society crumbling into decay, much like the old Roman Empire.

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Well,
Maybe they should make the cuplrits at Pirate Bay Walk the Plank. I suggested a few times to take these type people to the nearest tree and hang them but I was razed for that being too harsh.

I understand Marco Polo did most of his traveling by sea to China because of Bandits, Thieves, Cutthroats, Robbers and other all around nice guys. Ain't much changed has it?


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Unfortunately, it's not as simple as people with no morals. There is a huge movement of people who genuinely believe that the entire concept of intellectual property should be rewritten. When they are told that the livelihoods of professional musicians would be hurt, they say they don't care - that the world doesn't need professional musicians, and there are plenty of good hobbyists to fill the gap.

It's a hard battle to fight.


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Actually Andrew - I think the JPF Music Awards screams the point there *are* enough good hobbyists to fill the gap. In fact, that may be its most salient point. Not sure I'd call everybody hobbyists, but there darn sure is more than enough excellent recorded music created in the world that purchasing or licensing major or mid label music (that until now meaningfully supported artists, writers, producers, etc) would never be missed.

Simple supply and demand. As far as anybody making money via the major label record system, for many years the supply of recorded music was controlled, thus creating great value in that music. It was not a commodity, and it had monopoly profits. Now, anybody in their basement can produce great music, and bypass controlled distribution channels such as radio, so recorded music *is* becoming a commodity with potentially millions of producers. And what is the "normal" (economic term) profit for a commodity with many producers? Usually, almost nothing if anything.

But, that still doesn't mean we should abolish copyright. Anybody who believes that just wants something for nothing, and I wouldn't trust them to respect any of my other property rights. Capitalism is built on private property rights, and anybody screaming about government intervention in the markets and using tax money to prop up industry (i.e. socialism or collective ownership) is a hypocrite if they then push to steal property rights from (make collective ownership of) intellectual property. Now, the world is much more nuanced than that, but you get my point.

I wonder how Microsoft and Hollywood feel (well, actually we know)? I'm sure Bill Gates loves hearing he should give away OFFICE for free. Actually, as with anything, this boils down to those who have power. I'm betting Microsoft and Hollywood keep their rights for a long time, while independent music creators eventually lose theirs because like all us lowly common people, do we really have any political power? Actually we do, but often don't exercise it properly. And Mike is right about what he says about musicians organizing.

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Abolishing intellectual property copyright would serve to do only one thing. It would push prices way up. A gifted songwriter would charge big bucks just to show his or her work to an artist, they would be truly selling their work, rather than the product. Publishing companies would cease to exist, the artist and their distributor/label/promotion entity would be partnering with the songwriter who would get paid up front, and, since there would be no performance or mechanical rights, this up front payment could not be charged against their future earnings.

But here's the catch. It ain't gonna happen. Not in the forseeable future. There's too much money in intellectual property. Instead, a bunch of people who use that utopian ideal as an excuse for their own theft are gumming up the works and bringing down the market.

There is a truth that is often used as an excuse. It is that there is no obligation to obey a bad law. People all the time will point to Nazi Germany as an excuse to avoid obeying any law you can think of. They say, "The law is bad." But then let folks try to test the law's efficiency, and instead of actually arguing on the merits of the law vis a vis society, they'll point to the little old lady whose grandkid downloaded a bunch of songs. They use a legalistic excuse to break the law, but rely on an emotional ploy to fight the execution of the law. Suppose we didn't know it was a grandma? We just heard that a person was found to have 3,000 illegal songs on their computer...that's 3,000 bucks worth of songs. That's $300.00 that was supposed to go to the songwriters. OK, then look at the case here. Suppose it wasn't a pole dancer, say it was a grandma's quilting video. Guaranteed that folks would say, "Oh, let the poor grandma use the song."

All that aside, this case has shown one valuable lesson. When and if you send songs to a licensing library, write it down somewhere and check up on it from time to time.


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I really enjoy reading all the expert opinions on these JPF forums; great food for thought.

I can really relate to the anger about internet piracy.
It killed a great dream I had:
to make money from my music on the web.

It was hard for me to accept the death of my dream.
Years ago,just as I was ready to launch my internet based music career, it became apparent,the artist looses control of his/her work once it is on the web.

This realization was devastating. I just couldn't bring myself to give the music I worked so long and hard on, away for free.

I went through the classic Kubler-Ross Stages of Grief-

1 Denial
2 Anger
3 Bargaining
4 Depression
5 Acceptance

Once I accepted there's probably not enough money to be made from selling my music on the web, to make it worth the effort,
I ceased to care, and got back to the enjoyment of making music.

Now I see the web as a crowded street,and if I share some of my music online, I'm like a street musician; maybe some people will throw some coins my way- but a worth while income?- not likely.

An author, whose name I can't recall, once gave this advice to a struggling writer about success,"If you do it for money or fame, you'll have neither."

Good Luck All,

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Active,

Welcome to JPF. Thanks for a very honest and perceptive post.

Actually I don't think I've ever met a musician or artist who felt they were in it for the money. That's more likely to be an insult hurled toward successful artists by artists who either do not like the successful artist's genre or style, or who are jealous of the successful artist's popularity. The well adjusted successful artist does not allow themselves to be defined by such
opinions.



You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
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I think a lot of this is coming down to a defective model of business not ready for the internet. I am not saying that a better option is readily available or that it would be adopted by the parties needed to succeed, but I do know of some other ideas that may improve the situation for musicians and writers without totally killing the positive points of the net. It's part of a big project I am working on while finishing the awards. There's no such thing as an easy solution, but perhaps the right methodical and gradual approach can at least improve an untenable situation a bit.

If you landed on earth today and had to create a system whereby current technology could be used to serve both the consumer and the creator without any of the political or prior business model getting in the way, what would it be? Once we figure THAT out, then we can methodically work to switch to that process. But it almost has to be figured out in a vacuum, then sold to the creators and consumers and then implemented.

Any thoughts from you guys? I can't really share what I am directly working on yet.

Brian


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I don't know where people got the idea that music should be 'free', except maybe from listening to the radio, which costs you nothing as long as you have a radio. It's a denial of the effort and outlay of every artist / songwriter / composer to say that we shouldn't get paid for our work. How to resolve the issue? I don't know...


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Originally Posted by Hummingbird
I don't know where people got the idea that music should be 'free', except maybe from listening to the radio, which costs you nothing as long as you have a radio. It's a denial of the effort and outlay of every artist / songwriter / composer to say that we shouldn't get paid for our work. How to resolve the issue? I don't know...


The idea came around when digital technology became prevalent. Most pirates would never steal something in real life, because they figure, if I steal, say, your car, you won't have it any more. But if I take an MP3 from you, it doesn't hurt your original supply. The supply is infinite. And because it costs nothing to distribute MP3s, the cost of distribution is 0. In economics, goods that are not scarce will naturally be driven to a low price. Since music is infinitely not scarce, it's being naturally driven to a price of 0.

Again, the argument often put forth is that any artist looking to make money from music shouldn't be an artist. Some people think that the era of professional musicians should be over, much like how professional shoemakers (etc) no longer exist due to factory technology. They don't WANT music written by professionals. They think the world will be fine without us.


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I don't know where most folks were raised but I started stealing music about 45 years ago, long before digital technology or the internet came along.

I remember taping from a vinyl LP onto a reel to reel and sending it to my Mom through the mail. I was in Germany at the time. That was 1963.
We did it all the time after I came home from Germany too.
If one of us had an LP and we wanted to share it we'd make a cassette of it.
I use to listen to Radio on Sunday nights. There was a station in Chicago that would play an entire Album uninterrupted. We'd stick a cassette in the Tape deck and record it.
That was in the seventies. 35 years ago.
I had a lot of albums like that. Dooby Bros, Black Sabbath, Journey, Fleetwood mac, Santana. Lots of them, on Cassette I recorded free.
And I still have a couple of them and they still play.
In those days I was a listener.

Stealing music is nothing new. The sole reason ASCAP was founded was because people were stealing music and that was about 80 years ago.

The only difference now is it is easier. and more people can do it.
It's a simple fact that most people will steal something if they can. They often don't think they are doing any harm. It's like eating a strawberry from the produce bin at the grocery store or taking a pencil home from work and not taking it back. People do it all the time. It is human nature.

Most people won't pay for something if they can get it for free.

It's that simple. You are not going to change that no matter what you do.

Last edited by Bill Robinson; 05/17/09 06:03 PM.

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My wife was looking for a recording by Lobo, she had tried all the normal places to buy it but it looked like it was out of print. Her brother had a copy and offered to copy it for her, I said no, not until she had exhausted every means possible, she kept looking. While on vacation in another province, she found one in a sale bin and bought it. I won't even sample grapes, candy,etc. in stores, my conscience won't allow me. Before I became a born again Christian, it would not bother me to do so, I would rationalize it in my own mind that it is not really hurting anyone. I try to suppress my human nature and desires now, and try to exercise the nature of Jesus, though I often fail.

As far as someone stealing mp3 not hurting someone because there is a unlimited supply, I disagree, that music would not be available if someone didn't spend money and work at making it available. If no one buys it, how can they recover their cost, it discourages that person and hampers them financially from putting out another one. If you are a fan of that persons music, you are hurting yourself, because you are helping choke off the supply of the very music you love. The description of stealing is taking something that belongs to someone else without paying for it or receiving permission to do so from the rightful owner.

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Everett, +1 on that.

A big argument is that folks who download the songs wouldn't buy them. I say, prove it. Of course some wouldn't, but if one tenth of one percent would have bought it but are just using the technology to avoid paying, that's still a few bucks out of the songwriters' pocket. Don't forget, unlike performance, sales can be tracked fairly well, and the songwriters get a better shake out of sales than performance. I find it ironic that some of the same musicians who rant about the PRO system leaving out the little guy, will still be pro-file sharing, which hurts the system that's closest to being fair to the little guy.

Bill, the difference between taping and downloading/file sharing, is in fidelity. When we taped an album to reel or cassette, it lost fidelity. When we make a file transfer of an MP3, it will be a "clone" of the MP3, an exact or virtually exact duplicate. Our old tapes couldn't clone, and if they themselves were copied, the new copy would be further degraded. That's why the industry never made as big a deal out of taping, though they did frown on it.


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It's only music.
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Mike,

Wasn't their also a ten cent surcharge built into the cost of the blank cassette as well?

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There was a private copying levy on cassette tapes. There's still one on cds, but not on cds labeled for data, only those labeled for audio. I don't recall the amount.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
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Mike
I can assure you when I was rolling down the interstate at 60 miles per hour with the top down and Pretty Woman blasting out if the cheap stereo speakers in my car I wasn't too worried about fidelity. smile it was free music


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I read something today where You Tube is starting to pull videos that don't have permission. They are leaving a note saying "You Tomb".

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You Tube has been doing that for a while. I have seen several pages with messages that the video had been removed for copyright reasons. Don't recall seeing You Tomb, though. I will have to look again because that's pretty funny.


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YouTomb Shows Music Labels Stepping Up YouTube Copyright Crackdowns
BY Chris DannenMon May 18, 2009 at 5:17 PM


Every month, thousands of videos are pulled off YouTube for copyright infringement and other user-flagged violations. A student organization at MIT called Free Culture has compiled a kind of online eulogizer for videos lost to copyright claims, tracking all the metadata from the video, including which user asked that it be taken down. It's called YouTomb, and in the last year it's learned a lot about what gets flagged, what stays, and what's wrong with the system.

No, you can't watch the removed videos there--it's not that kind of repository. The project aims to establish an understanding of exactly which kinds of popular videos are pulled, and what kinds of trends they're creating. Free Culture says it's interested in the way YouTube's content-fingerprinting technology works, and the extent to which it is infringing on users' right to fair use.


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Originally Posted by Ray E. Strode
Does she have the song registered for copyright? If so she SHOULD CONTACT A LAWYER and have him write a letter to the user(s) of the song. That is the only way to proceed. Writing a letter herself will and may be ignored. A letter from a lawyer could also be ignored but the threat of court action in most cases will be all that is needed to settle the issue.


I don't think everyone will ever become more united. There should be a more effective process of marketing concerts (since live shows can't be duplicated).

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A few thoughts-
First, it IS as crime to steal music and use it without permission. However, it is one of the kinds of crimes that are rarely prosecuted (unless its being done on a large scale) because the government agencies charged with prosecuting such crimes generally believe there are other avenues for the victim to pursue. If you check with your local DA, they will tell you that the sanctions built into the copyright law are a better way to redress the trespass than to try to have someone arrested.
Second, Many attorneys will handle these types of infringements on a contingent fee basis. If they think the infringer has assets (believe it or not, there are times when insurance may actually cover the infringement situation)then the attorney will take a percentage of the outcome instead of charging you an hourly rate. Depending on the infringement situation, there may be substantial recoupment available in the way of statutory damages and/or the ability to show trade dilution, etc. On the other hand, don't expect the attorney to go after an infringer when there is no expectation of a return on the investment of time.
Third, I have rarely (actually, at the moment, I can't think of a single instance) had the experience where one of my cease and desist letters has just been ignored. Generally, if an infringer knows you're serious enough to get an Attorney involved, they won't expect you to just go away. Usually, they will stop using your material immediately.
Finding an attorney is easy enough. You need only call your local Bar Association and they usually have a list of Intellectual Property and Entertainment Law Attorneys.
Finally, it's interesting to see the references above to the great plan for distributing the wealth from the various copying media. It is true that, as a compromise, when CD recorders and media were introduced, there was a surcharge added to the cost of everything. This money was supposed to be collected by the government and then ultimately distributed to authors/publishers to compensate them for the illegal copying that nobody was going to be able to prove or keep track of. Every time you purchased a CD/DVD recording machine, Music CD, etc., a portion of the purchase price was collected. We can only wonder whatever happened to all that $$$.

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A case came down today where a woman was fined $1.9 million dollars for 24 songs. The jury assessed her $80,000 per song. She apparently had flaunted the courts before, somewhat like the Pirate Bay guys, and just refuese to stop downloading. So they stopped her. For now.

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It won't hold up... over a million dollars for 22 downloaded songs? Do we fine turnstyle jumpers $100,000? No.


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She obviously doesn't have the money, but I bet there's value to the industry to set a precendent like that. It should put a little fear into others doing the same thing. I certainly have no sympathy for her. She has no sympathy for the artists/writers she's not compensating. I am curious what Stu thinks about this. Will this aid in putting a chilling effect over the big offenders? Will this become a tool to push the ISP's into doing a deal like Virgin Media and Universal have done in the UK where in exchange for the blanket free use of music for 1 fee the ISP's will start sharing info on the illegal file sharing culprits?

Lots of interesting fallout from this one I bet.

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Brian, the problem is that the fine is obviously exorbitant and out of the reach of an average mom like this. Most people I know are not taking this seriously as a result, and those that are want to pirate MORE, not less, to strike back at the big bad RIAA. I think if the fine were a lot smaller and the law enforced more frequently it would scare more people. For example, $100-1000/song. That's what most of these cases settle for anyway, AFAIK.

Don't get me wrong... I agree with you that she shouldn't have been pirating to begin with, and I have little sympathy that she got caught. But over a million for downloading 22 songs? That's really excessive.

Last edited by Andrew Aversa; 06/21/09 01:04 PM.

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Andrew - she was offered a settlement of $3000-$5000 and didn't take it. Her new fine is not exorbitant, and it could have been $150,000 per occurrence, not $80,000. The original reason for that statutory fine is the serious consequence of copyright infringement - it can be highly disruptive to many businesses and it can cost people millions and billions of dollars. And is.

So, what is a fair price for scarfing 22 songs? I'd have to read the articles again, but she probably was nabbed for allowing the songs to be available for download, not actually downloading the songs. So, how do you calculate who all downloaded the songs, and how much it costs for attorney fees and tracking the theft?

If you want a lower fine, you gotta change the law. My guess is most people who *purposely* file share wouldn't change their behavior and/or would be just as angry with the RIAA whether the fine is $1 a song or $150,000. People should take it serious out of respect for the law and for other people's property anyway, not because of a fine.

And don't most file sharers allow hundreds of songs to be available for download? For the sake of argument, let's say the average file sharer has 100 songs out there, and the fine is $100 a song. That's $10,000. Is that a fine within the realm of most people? Or do we just keep lowering the fine because we feel sorry for everybody? Obviously most people don't have a million dollars, and I'm for leniency (mostly because I know people can get falsely accused, and some parents/people don't understand what is going on with their computers, and it's just too easy a crime nowdays - the jumping the turnstile analogy does fit), but file sharing has serious consequences and the law is the law.

And don't think a judge can't get the money from her or anybody else. A while back in a similar thread, I posted where some dude was making devices to steal cable signals. He got fined big time, and the judge is making him pay $500 a month for life to make a dent in the fine.

Some of this is kinda moot anyway, as from what I read the RIAA has decided to try other routes besides lawsuits in most cases.

Last edited by Doug/Liszt Laughing; 06/21/09 08:06 PM.

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I don't see how you could possibly believe $1.2 million for pirating 22 songs is justified. We don't fine turnstyle jumpers $100,000 for every time they don't pay their subway fare. We don't give people $500,000 tickets for speeding. By your logic - piracy could be "highly disruptive" to businesses and cause millions to billions in damage - we should be putting people that speed on the highway in jail or hanging them. The act of speeding causes countless accidents and has killed millions of people. Despite the gravity of this act, if you are caught speeding you will probably not pay a dime. The punishment is exponentially less severe than the consequences of everyone speeding.

Do you see what I'm saying here? I'm not saying piracy is right. I'm as pro-intellectual property as the come. But the law MUST be reasonable. The vast majority of people in America, especially those my age and younger, have pirated music. Much like the vast majority of people have sped on the highway and committed countless other minor violations of the law. The impact of ONE PERSON pirating 22 songs simply does not merit that $1.2 million fine, objectively speaking.

Also, again, it is extremely unlikely that she will end up paying this fine. It will be appealed successfully. If not, there are countless ways she could get around paying it.


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Maybe all the folks who illegally download could chip in and pay her bill?


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They already have been, much like in other file-sharing cases - legal fees, anyway. Again, she's not going to be paying that fine. Even if an appeal failed, in case people forget we have something in the U.S. called "bankruptcy". True liens on incomes haven't existed for centuries.


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