Who's Online Now
22 registered members (Deej56, Brian Austin Whitney, Harriet Ames, couchgrouch, 9ne, Gavin Sinclair, CFD, 7 invisible), and 316 guests, and
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Shout Box
Member Spotlight
Andy K
Andy K
Clearwater, FL, USA
Posts: 740
Joined: April 2003
Show All Member Profiles 
What's Going On
We All Fall Down
by Deej56. 06/20/19 02:34 AM
Girl with a smile
by Deej56. 06/20/19 01:57 AM
Handjob on the Highway
by couchgrouch. 06/19/19 11:55 PM
CASUALTY OF TIME. ACOUSTIC VERSION. M.Z.
by Deej56. 06/19/19 10:23 PM
A Casualty of Time. Travis with Mike Zaneski V& P
by Michael Zaneski. 06/19/19 07:50 PM
Best upload site
by Martin Lide. 06/19/19 07:41 PM
Why are there so many lyric-only folks?
by couchgrouch. 06/19/19 02:47 PM
SONGS WANTED URGENTLY PLEASE
by David Gill. 06/19/19 02:45 PM
Careful What You Want
by Neil Cotton. 06/19/19 02:20 PM
Nervous Breakdown
by Gavin Sinclair. 06/19/19 11:12 AM
Stairway Lawsuit
by Martin Lide. 06/19/19 08:34 AM
Travelor
by Travis david. 06/19/19 05:25 AM
The Will To Stay
by Calvin. 06/19/19 05:18 AM
Crazy Carousel (free to use instrumental)
by Calvin. 06/19/19 05:09 AM
Washed Away Each Time It Rains
by Calvin. 06/19/19 04:58 AM
London Calls
by Gavin Sinclair. 06/18/19 01:01 PM
A Sailor's Life
by 90 dB. 06/18/19 11:06 AM
I started out with nothing. Vic
by Vicarn. 06/18/19 10:48 AM
If I Have Another Tear To Cry
by Gary E. Andrews. 06/18/19 09:44 AM
On Our Crazy Carousel Of Love.
by MFB III. 06/18/19 03:19 AM
Bouquets and Goodbyes
by Deej56. 06/18/19 12:21 AM
I Want To Do Method Acting; Help
by R&M. 06/17/19 11:58 PM
Gold Heart, Bleeding Heart
by Michael Zaneski. 06/17/19 09:51 PM
Forever Hers
by nightengale. 06/17/19 08:40 PM
Beyond All Those Eons Of Neon.
by MFB III. 06/17/19 12:20 PM
Lonely fool
by Travis david. 06/17/19 07:27 AM
::: CRUSH ON YOU :::
by Travis david. 06/17/19 07:17 AM
Kerry Moon.Thread sewn up.Thanks for all help.
by MFB III. 06/17/19 02:59 AM
I'm Almost Halfway Through My Third Life.
by MFB III. 06/17/19 02:57 AM
Mysterious Circumstances
by couchgrouch. 06/17/19 12:54 AM
Top Posters(All Time)
Calvin 19,737
Travis david 11,507
Kevin Emmrich 10,544
Jean Bullock 10,330
Kaley Willow 10,240
Two Singers 9,572
Joice Marie 9,186
Mackie H. 8,844
glynda 8,590
Mike Dunbar 8,574
Tricia Baker 8,318
Colin Ward 7,903
couchgrouch 7,516
Corey 7,357
Dave Rice 7,226
Wyman Lloyd 6,578
Mark Kaufman 6,462
Joe Wrabek 6,403
ben willis 6,099
Vicarn 6,089
Lynn Orloff 5,788
Louis 5,725
Linda Sings 5,604
niteshift 5,477
KimberlyinNC 5,210
Derek Hines 4,893
Neil Cotton 4,807
DonnaMarilyn 4,648
Blake Hill 4,528
Bob Cushing 4,356
Bill Osofsky 4,199
Tom Shea 4,179
Cindy Miller 4,178
nightengale 4,054
TamsNumber4 4,033
Roy Cooper 4,022
Caroline 3,865
Kolstad 3,799
Dan Sullivan 3,710
MFB III 3,699
beechnut79 3,494
Dottie 3,427
joewatt 3,411
E Swartz 3,333
Bill Cooper 3,279
John Hoffman 3,199
Skip Johnson 3,027
Pam Hurley 3,007
Terry G 3,005
PopTodd 2,890
Harriet Ames 2,870
Nigel Quin 2,812
MidniteBob 2,707
Nelson 2,570
Tom Tracy 2,558
Polly Hager 2,526
Jerry Jakala 2,524
Al Alvarez 2,499
Eric Thome 2,448
Hummingbird 2,401
Stan Loh 2,263
Sam Wilson 2,242
Judy Hollier 2,232
Wendy D 2,206
Erica Ellis 2,202
TrumanCoyote 2,096
Marty Helly 2,012
DukeWill 1,984
floyd jane 1,982
maccharles 1,943
Clint Anglin 1,904
cindyrella 1,888
David Wright 1,866
Clairejeanne 1,851
Cindy LaRosa 1,824
Ronald Boyt 1,675
Iggy 1,646
Noel Downs 1,620
Rick Heenan 1,596
Cal 1,574
Jack Swain 1,554
Pete Larsen 1,537
Ann Tygart 1,529
Tom Breshers 1,487
Martin Lide 1,466
RogerS 1,461
Tom Franz 1,453
Chuck Crowe 1,441
Ralph Blight 1,440
Kenneth Cade 1,429
Rick Norton 1,428
bholt 1,411
GocartMoz 1,411
Letha Allen 1,408
in2piano 1,404
Stan Simons 1,402
mattbanx 1,384
Jen Shaner 1,373
Charlie Wong 1,347
KevinP 1,324
Vondelle 1,316
Tom W. 1,313
Jan Petter 1,301
scottandrew 1,292
DakLander 1,265
PeteG 1,242
Ian Ferrin 1,230
Glen King 1,214
IdeaGuy 1,209
AaronAuthier 1,177
Fdemetrio 1,162
Diane Ewing 1,158
Gerry 1,142
summeoyo 1,120
joro 1,081
BobbyJoe 1,075
lane1777 1,059
S.DEE 1,040
yann 1,037
Deej56 1,017
Tony A 1,016
argo 986
peaden 984
Wolvman 960
IronKnee 947
Jak Kelly 912
krtinberg 890
Drifter 886
Petra 883
9ne 878
RJC 845
Brenda152 840
Nadia 827
Juan 797
TKO 784
90 dB 782
frahmes 781
teletwang 762
Andy K 740
tbryson 737
Andy Kemp 733
ant 732
Jackie444 731
3daveyO3 704
Dayson 703
Dixie 701
Joy Boy 695
Knute 686
Lee Arten 678
Katziis 652
R.T.MOORE 638
quality 637
CG King 622
Irwin 622
douglas 621
Mel 614
Pat Hardy 611
NaomiSue 601
Shandy 589
Ria 587
TAMERA64 583
Moosesong 579
qbaum 570
nitepiano 566
pRISCILLA 556
Tink2 553
musica 539
deanbell 528
RobertK 527
BonzaiWag 523
Roderic 522
BB Wilbur 511
goodfolks 499
R&M 490
Zeek 487
Stu 486
Steve P. 481
KathyW 462
allenb 459
MaxG 458
Philjo 454
fanito 448
trush48 448
dmk 442
arealrush 437
DGR 436
avweek 435
Stephen D 433
Emmy 431
Rob L 426
marquez 422
kit 419
Softkrome 417
kyrksongs 415
RRon 408
Laura G. 407
VNORTH 407
Debra 407
eb 406
cuebald 399
EdPerrone 399
Dannyk1 395
Hobart 395
Davyboy49 393
Smile 389
GJShades 387
Ezt 384
tone 380
Marla 380
Cecilee 379
iggyiggy 378
coalminer 377
java 374
spidey 371
sweetsong 370
Register Today!
Welcome to the Just Plain Folks forums! You are currently viewing our forums as a Guest which gives you limited access to most of our discussions and to other features.

By joining our free community you will have access to post and respond to topics, communicate privately with our users (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free; so please join our community today!
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4
#1153702 - 06/01/19 05:52 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,162
Fdemetrio Offline
Top 500 Poster
Fdemetrio  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,162
Lets add more musicians to the list of guys who can play AND write

Billy Joel
Joe Jackson
Don Henley
Joe Walsh
Jackson Browne
Mark Knopfler

oh theres thousands more

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/05/19 12:00 PM.
#1153705 - 06/01/19 06:38 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,162
Fdemetrio Offline
Top 500 Poster
Fdemetrio  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,162
Oh Yeah Delouie, i forgot to mention. These "band Members of Springsteen", have all written great albums. They just dont get press, success and goodness are two different things Delouie









Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/02/19 02:31 PM.
#1153706 - 06/01/19 07:06 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,943
maccharles Offline
Top 200 Poster
maccharles  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,943
I hear julian's voice, ice clinking in glass "[naughty word removed]'s sakes boys".

#1153707 - 06/01/19 07:14 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,943
maccharles Offline
Top 200 Poster
maccharles  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,943

#1153766 - 06/04/19 03:33 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 207
Cheyenne Offline
Serious Contributor
Cheyenne  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 207
Florida U.S.A.
Writing lyrics only ?? Great idea as long as you understand what makes a hit song

Repetition or Close Repetition , A study of whats known as The Vowel Triangle

SONG FORMS ---- Rhythm--Setting Up -- Shutting Down---Balance - Pace --

Strong Beats and Weak Beats--- it goes on and on ------------

and one of the best books around for teaching all you need to know ------

MANAGING LYRIC STRUCTURE By Pat Pattison

PERSONALLY I can only write SONGS via a Musical Instrument

That way I know where I'm going with the melody from the verses to the Big Hook

The Marriage Of Melody to Lyrics ??? You can teach yourself that via Studying

the best of whats gone on before


Last edited by Cheyenne; 06/04/19 03:39 AM.

One of the most important principles of songwriting is to remember that a good song is a partnership of many different components, all working together to produce a satisfying musical experience.

In that respect, song components are either enhancing or compromising their combined effects.
#1153791 - 06/04/19 02:39 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,801
Brian Austin Whitney Online content
Brian Austin Whitney  Online Content

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,801
Indianapolis, IN USA
The good news for Country writers is a simple handclap beat on the 2 and 4 is enough to have a hit song with a good vocal and simple guitar. It's all over. I will be posting a link to a video that does a beautiful job of dissecting it all later this week.

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

[Linked Image]
#1154031 - 06/12/19 08:21 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 13,299
Michael LeBlanc Offline
Top 10 Poster
Michael LeBlanc  Offline
Top 10 Poster

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 13,299
Louisiana
well there are lyricist who can't play instruments and musicians that can't put three words together,being great at both would be fantastic and it's done every day but everyone can't do it all.I would rather give my lyric to a real musician than me tinker with BIAB trying to put 3 or for Heaven's help 4 chords together.I would rather send a raw vocal track and let the musician take it from there.Bernie Taupin didn't do bad as just a lyricist.

#1154034 - 06/12/19 10:24 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 579
Moosesong Offline
Top 500 Poster
Moosesong  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 579
Roseville, CA, USA
"Rolling Eyes....Let me guess YOUR one of the great creative people...am I warm? "

Actually FD, I would have to say yes, In my opinion Couch is a truly great lyricist. some of the best on these boards and some with lines I find amazingly brilliant.


David Hunkins
Music page
www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandid=707030

The Russian government interfered in the 2016 presidential election in sweeping and
systematic fashion. Evidence of Russian government operations began to surface in mid-2016..


https://www.justice.gov/storage/report.pdf
#1154124 - 06/14/19 02:17 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 13,299
Michael LeBlanc Offline
Top 10 Poster
Michael LeBlanc  Offline
Top 10 Poster

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 13,299
Louisiana
what i would like to know is why isn't there an "Instrumental Forum" here so "we" lyricists can maybe write something for them.Some of the musicians may be great until it comes to putting words together.Sure you'll get some lame lyrics as we get lame music for our lyrics but something might jive from time to time.I think i've only taken one maybe two instrumentals here and wrote words for them.Not sure if they really actually liked it but it sure was fun for me to write with an awesome piece of music.So let's average it out and you musicians start putting some work out there for the lyricist.

#1154127 - 06/14/19 02:40 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Michael LeBlanc]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,162
Fdemetrio Offline
Top 500 Poster
Fdemetrio  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,162
Originally Posted by Michael LeBlanc
what i would like to know is why isn't there an "Instrumental Forum" here so "we" lyricists can maybe write something for them.Some of the musicians may be great until it comes to putting words together.Sure you'll get some lame lyrics as we get lame music for our lyrics but something might jive from time to time.I think i've only taken one maybe two instrumentals here and wrote words for them.Not sure if they really actually liked it but it sure was fun for me to write with an awesome piece of music.So let's average it out and you musicians start putting some work out there for the lyricist.



Well I think its a great idea. Thing is "instrumentals" take alot of time and work for the musician.

Also alot of lyricists cant write to tracks, because it restricts them. But if done right this kind of thing leads to better songs for the lyricist.

#1154146 - 06/15/19 02:51 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Michael LeBlanc]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,648
DonnaMarilyn Offline
Top 100 Poster
DonnaMarilyn  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,648
Netherlands
.

Last edited by DonnaMarilyn; 06/15/19 03:22 AM.

Honour the Earth. Without it, we'd be nowhere.

Life is too important to take seriously.

http://www.reverbnation.com/donnamarilynrichblend




#1154148 - 06/15/19 03:14 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,801
Brian Austin Whitney Online content
Brian Austin Whitney  Online Content

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,801
Indianapolis, IN USA
Instrumental board already exists... it's called the MP3 board. Any MP3 format is welcome there. With lyrics or without.

There are far more lyric only folks than Instrumental only. John Schick would be an example of someone who writes music only and posts there.


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

[Linked Image]
#1154149 - 06/15/19 03:23 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,648
DonnaMarilyn Offline
Top 100 Poster
DonnaMarilyn  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,648
Netherlands
Originally Posted by Michael LeBlanc
what i would like to know is why isn't there an "Instrumental Forum" here so "we" lyricists can maybe write something for them. Some of the musicians may be great until it comes to putting words together. Sure you'll get some lame lyrics as we get lame music for our lyrics but something might jive from time to time.I think i've only taken one maybe two instrumentals here and wrote words for them.Not sure if they really actually liked it but it sure was fun for me to write with an awesome piece of music.So let's average it out and you musicians start putting some work out there for the lyricist.


A separate thread's not a bad idea, Mike.

Useful for me would be something in between. For example, I often create melodies for my lyrics (and I send the Audacity file to my collaborators), but it's much easier for me to get into a musical groove if I have a backing track to sing against.

I don't mean a full instrumental complete with melody - just a basic track in various genres/time signatures. It wouldn't be used outside the context of me creating a melody over it. It could even be the track (sans melody) of an already completed song, or simply a track for a song idea that's been abandoned. I'm sure composers have plenty of those, just as we lyricists are likely to have a drawer full of half-finished lyrics and still-waiting hook/title ideas. wink

In times past, it was easy to find 'free-to-download' tracks (intended for musicians to jam with), but those days seem to be gone. Everyone now is trying to sell everything they do. I don't mind that so much ($0.99 now and again won't break the bank) - what I hate is that to even be able to listen to some of the tracks you need to accept cookies on the website, which means even more crap spam landing in my email.

Anyway, this is just a thought. Maybe a section that would include random backing tracks for folks like me. Or, if instrumentals are posted specifically for collaboration, maybe someone would jump in to propose a lyric.

I strongly recommend though that composers seeking collaboration - at the very least - provide lyricists with a leadsheet. This makes it much easier to write a lyric for a melody.

Donna


Honour the Earth. Without it, we'd be nowhere.

Life is too important to take seriously.

http://www.reverbnation.com/donnamarilynrichblend




#1154155 - 06/15/19 09:50 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: DonnaMarilyn]  
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 91
ckiphen Offline
Serious Contributor
ckiphen  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 91
- Select One - houston, texas...
Excellent Idea!

#1154157 - 06/15/19 09:55 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 13,299
Michael LeBlanc Offline
Top 10 Poster
Michael LeBlanc  Offline
Top 10 Poster

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 13,299
Louisiana
yes,i was thinking of people who are looking for lyrics.Doesn't have to be the finished music,just the bones as to where they want the verses,chorus,bridge maybe,then they can take their music and build around it.The instrumentals on the MP3 board seems to me that that's what they intend it to be,an instrumental.I haven't seen one posted yet asking for lyrics to a certain one.Just a thought.

#1154161 - 06/15/19 10:11 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Michael LeBlanc]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,162
Fdemetrio Offline
Top 500 Poster
Fdemetrio  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,162
Originally Posted by Michael LeBlanc
yes,i was thinking of people who are looking for lyrics.Doesn't have to be the finished music,just the bones as to where they want the verses,chorus,bridge maybe,then they can take their music and build around it.The instrumentals on the MP3 board seems to me that that's what they intend it to be,an instrumental.I haven't seen one posted yet asking for lyrics to a certain one.Just a thought.


I think that's the same thing that has been happening here for a long time. Post a lyric, somebody sees it, and adds music.

I thought you were looking the other way around. Somebody posts a track of a song/instrumental they composed, and the lyricist tries to find a lyric for it, sometimes the melody is tapped out, sometimes it's up to the lyricist to find a melody too.

I do this all the time for my own stuff. The overwhelming majority of songwriters say they write the music first, others say they write both at same time. I think writing them both at same time makes it more authentic, but it's open for debate.

But I havent seen many lyricists who can do much with a music track, cause they dont have the freedom of writing across a page and setting their own rhythm to it....

#1154165 - 06/15/19 10:46 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,648
DonnaMarilyn Offline
Top 100 Poster
DonnaMarilyn  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,648
Netherlands
FD, I don't think lyricists generally feel limited, especially if the composer has provided a leadsheet - which in my opinion is essential. Iíve worked both with and without leadsheets, and without is a nightmare. I donít do it anymore.

Besides, why would the lyricist be looking to create her/his own rhythm if the melody has already been determined by the composer/vocalist? With a leadsheet (and of course the music), she/he can see exactly which and what kind of notes need to be written to. It's then a matter of finding the right words and creating a consistent/coherent lyric that matches the mood of the music. I feel it's unlikely that a lyricist would be required to write the melody. This is more often the task of the vocalist if not the composer.

Thereís plenty a lyricist can do with a track, because often the composer already knows the theme/storyline he/she wants but needs the lyric to be written by a wordsmith, or needs someone to polish whatever he/she has already written. Iíve just finished a project like that, and have co-written a lot of lyrics that already had a melody.

There are many kinds of collaboration, all of which need to be discussed and decided upon from the beginning.

As I said in my previous post, Iím not after instrumentals & melodies. I can create my own melodies for my lyrics (though I donít always do it wink ). Iíd simply like a few simple backing tracks in different genres and time signatures to sing against so that I can more quickly get a feel for the melody as Iím singing. A backing track kind of Ďjump startsí me. smile Even though that particular track wonít be a part of the resulting song.

I donít agree that music and lyrics need to created at the same time for a song to be authentic. But as you say, itís open to debate. wink No doubt others here will chime in. wink

Donna


Honour the Earth. Without it, we'd be nowhere.

Life is too important to take seriously.

http://www.reverbnation.com/donnamarilynrichblend




#1154170 - 06/15/19 11:58 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: DonnaMarilyn]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,162
Fdemetrio Offline
Top 500 Poster
Fdemetrio  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,162
Originally Posted by DonnaMarilyn
FD, I don't think lyricists generally feel limited, especially if the composer has provided a leadsheet - which in my opinion is essential. Iíve worked both with and without leadsheets, and without is a nightmare. I donít do it anymore.

Besides, why would the lyricist be looking to create her/his own rhythm if the melody has already been determined by the composer/vocalist? With a leadsheet (and of course the music), she/he can see exactly which and what kind of notes need to be written to. It's then a matter of finding the right words and creating a consistent/coherent lyric that matches the mood of the music. I feel it's unlikely that a lyricist would be required to write the melody. This is more often the task of the vocalist if not the composer.

Thereís plenty a lyricist can do with a track, because often the composer already knows the theme/storyline he/she wants but needs the lyric to be written by a wordsmith, or needs someone to polish whatever he/she has already written. Iíve just finished a project like that, and have co-written a lot of lyrics that already had a melody.

There are many kinds of collaboration, all of which need to be discussed and decided upon from the beginning.

As I said in my previous post, Iím not after instrumentals & melodies. I can create my own melodies for my lyrics (though I donít always do it wink ). Iíd simply like a few simple backing tracks in different genres and time signatures to sing against so that I can more quickly get a feel for the melody as Iím singing. A backing track kind of Ďjump startsí me. smile Even though that particular track wonít be a part of the resulting song.

I donít agree that music and lyrics need to created at the same time for a song to be authentic. But as you say, itís open to debate. wink No doubt others here will chime in. wink

Donna


Thing is Donna, a "backing track" wont support just any melody. The melody and backing track need to be harmonically right, meaning that the chords need to fit the melody

I think writing to a track, and moreso writing to an already established melody is tuff sledding for a lyricist. It becomes a bit like putting a puzzle together.... "hmm let me see, I need three sylables in this line, because the melody is playing a triplet, so let me go with "make a wish"

What happens is the content of the lyric starts to get weaker and weaker as you search for ways to fill the words in.


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/15/19 12:17 PM.
#1154174 - 06/15/19 12:18 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,200
Ray E. Strode Online content
Top 40 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Online Content
Top 40 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,200
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Well,
I would suggest someone who writes lyrics only hook up with a Co-Writer who can play an instrument. Many times a set of lyrics look good on paper until you start putting them to music. Many, most Producers only want a lyric sheet and a competent demo. They will do the rest if they are going to use the song.


Ray E. Strode
#1154180 - 06/15/19 01:25 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Fdemetrio]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,648
DonnaMarilyn Offline
Top 100 Poster
DonnaMarilyn  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,648
Netherlands
FD, for me, the backing track doesnít need to support the melody. I just need the groove in the particular genre. The backing track functions as a kind of metronome but a lot more fun. It absolutely works for me. wink Iíve used this method many, many times. Sure, I can come up with a melody just by singing the words over and over in Audacity until I have something that sounds halfway decent to my ears, but itís much less time consuming with a track to sing over.

I donít disagree with you about writing lyrics to a melody. It can be tough. Thatís why I insist on a leadsheet (and why I rarely write to a melody these days Ė I prefer the other way around). Iím fine once I have a storyline established; then I focus on the crafting and the choice of words in the usual way.

I agree that often lyrics written to a melody can sound clunky and disjointed, and generally need to be very seriously revised. But they can end up being quite nice. I know a lyricist Ė and a good one Ė who, to my astonishment, actually prefers writing to a melody. And her lyrics generally work really well (after a lot of re-writing). I think the key point here is revision.

I find itís much easier to write to a track that doesnít yet have a melody, as long as the composer can indicate exactly where the various sections begin and end. I used to enjoy doing those, especially when the music inspired me, and a storyline emerged quickly. (If I didnít like the music, I declined the request.)


Honour the Earth. Without it, we'd be nowhere.

Life is too important to take seriously.

http://www.reverbnation.com/donnamarilynrichblend




#1154183 - 06/15/19 03:57 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: DonnaMarilyn]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,162
Fdemetrio Offline
Top 500 Poster
Fdemetrio  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,162
Originally Posted by DonnaMarilyn
FD, for me, the backing track doesnít need to support the melody. I just need the groove in the particular genre. The backing track functions as a kind of metronome but a lot more fun. It absolutely works for me. wink Iíve used this method many, many times. Sure, I can come up with a melody just by singing the words over and over in Audacity until I have something that sounds halfway decent to my ears, but itís much less time consuming with a track to sing over.

I donít disagree with you about writing lyrics to a melody. It can be tough. Thatís why I insist on a leadsheet (and why I rarely write to a melody these days Ė I prefer the other way around). Iím fine once I have a storyline established; then I focus on the crafting and the choice of words in the usual way.

I agree that often lyrics written to a melody can sound clunky and disjointed, and generally need to be very seriously revised. But they can end up being quite nice. I know a lyricist Ė and a good one Ė who, to my astonishment, actually prefers writing to a melody. And her lyrics generally work really well (after a lot of re-writing). I think the key point here is revision.

I find itís much easier to write to a track that doesnít yet have a melody, as long as the composer can indicate exactly where the various sections begin and end. I used to enjoy doing those, especially when the music inspired me, and a storyline emerged quickly. (If I didnít like the music, I declined the request.)


A drum machine or sampled beats might work better. As long as you come up with a melody that works i guess all is well.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/15/19 04:02 PM.
#1154184 - 06/15/19 04:27 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 43
JaneK Offline
Serious Contributor
JaneK  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 43
Bakersfield, CA
What I do first is make tracks of the melody with chords or sometimes just an improvised melody line with a drum track etc. without vocals or lyrics. Then I try to find prewritten lyrical ideas to go with the instrumental. For me,the lyrics never work with the ideas I have in my head of the melody, arrangement etc.

I have tons and tons of drum tracks with just a piano and synth, sometimes without a structured melody line. Most of the time the melody is built around a drum track and then sits there waiting to be finished. Sometimes I just play a piece without any drums or beats to it with a piano sound.. It usually gets saved to my DAW and sits there until I muster up some more lyrics. Don't like that part. My musical ideas far outweigh my ability to write lyrics. Then I end up putting a not so good lyric to music that would be far more interesting with a better lyric. That's a big problem for us "one man band" creators.

So I guess one can put their instrumentals (finished or unfinished) up on the forum for anybody that needs help making their lyrics come to life. That's a thought!

I admire people that can effortlessly write tons of lyrics. I have a hard time finding something interesting to say.

Jane

#1154186 - 06/15/19 04:56 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,648
DonnaMarilyn Offline
Top 100 Poster
DonnaMarilyn  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,648
Netherlands
Jane, I admire your musical and vocal talent.

However, I don't know a single lyricist who can write tons of lyrics - good ones - effortlessly. smile Sure, getting a basic idea down can be relatively easy, but afterwards the draft invariably needs a LOT of revision. This can take a great deal of time and effort. 'The art of writing is in the re-writing'.

And it's not so much about having something interesting to say. There are plenty of interesting things to write about. The hard part is saying them in an interesting and skilful manner. wink

Perhaps you could think about asking a lyricist to co-write/revise your own drafts. Or post your lyrics for feedback. You could mention that they already have a melody, and any adjustments would need to be made within those parameters.

Donna


Honour the Earth. Without it, we'd be nowhere.

Life is too important to take seriously.

http://www.reverbnation.com/donnamarilynrichblend




#1154187 - 06/15/19 06:44 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 13,299
Michael LeBlanc Offline
Top 10 Poster
Michael LeBlanc  Offline
Top 10 Poster

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 13,299
Louisiana
just for kicks,this is the instrumental by Joe Rogier i found on the MP3 board and set lyrics to it.It was only a one take thing,we didn't venture in rewriting or anything,i just wanted to put some lyrics to a piece of music that struck me.Of course a vocalist is needed but that's the drift i'm getting at with this idea.Who knows what it would have sounded like if we took it to other levels. https://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=13191336

#1154188 - 06/15/19 06:52 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 43
JaneK Offline
Serious Contributor
JaneK  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 43
Bakersfield, CA
Donna,

I know it takes a lot of skill to write good lyrics. I didn't mean there isn't a lot of effort put in to it (poor choice of words on my part). When the lyrics work, it looks easy to folks but it is not.

Good lyricists like yourself who can take words and make a wonderful story out of them - I think the real skill of writing lyrics is in the "making it interesting part" and the rewriting and rewriting to make it just right - wow the patience involved.

It takes a good vocabulary and a total devotion to the art and I admire someone with that talent.

Jane

#1154194 - 06/16/19 04:19 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,648
DonnaMarilyn Offline
Top 100 Poster
DonnaMarilyn  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,648
Netherlands
Michael, that turned out really well. The lyrics are simple and straightforward. Lovely music & melody from Joe too. I can understand you feeling drawn to the piece.

(I seem to recall being in contact with Joe several years ago over a possible collaboration. I forget though whether anything resulted. And I lost a lot of music in a computer crash. emo ) )

I remember four or five years ago hearing someone's instrumental track somewhere, and feeling immediately inspired. The words almost began writing themselves while I was listening. I contacted the composer soon after to ask if he'd be up for a collaboration, but - unfortunately for me - someone else had got there first. Sometimes you gotta be quick. wink

Jane, you're right on all counts. smile
Re-writing, patience, a good vocabulary, devotion to the art.

Add to those a good thesaurus (like the Oxford American Writer's Thesaurus), a good dictionary (to build up that vocabulary wink ), a good rhyming dictionary (like The Complete Rhyming Dictionary edited by Clement Wood; online ones are useful too, like RhymeZone, RhymeGenie, or others), and access to books on lyric writing (e.g. Sheila Davis, Rikky Rooksby, Bill Pere, Pat Pattison) or online instruction (e.g. Pat Pattison, Ralph Murphy, and others).

Most important though I think is to know one's own strengths and to focus on those.

For instance, as much as I'd love to be able to play an instrument (and believe me, I've made serious attempts on both guitar and keyboard over the years), it simply is not going to happen. And life at this point is too short for me to learn DAWs or BIAB or GarageBand or what have you. My active creative interests (other than writing lyrics) lie in art and photography.

Where songwriting is concerned, my gift - if you can call it that - is Words. Yours - in abundance - is Music & Vocals.

If words are a problem for you, I strongly recommend you consider turning your drafts (which will already have a melody) over to a lyricist co-writer. smile She/he will apply her/his skills to contribute to yours. smile

End of monologue. laugh


Honour the Earth. Without it, we'd be nowhere.

Life is too important to take seriously.

http://www.reverbnation.com/donnamarilynrichblend




#1154196 - 06/16/19 04:30 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: DonnaMarilyn]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,801
Brian Austin Whitney Online content
Brian Austin Whitney  Online Content

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,801
Indianapolis, IN USA
Originally Posted by DonnaMarilyn
Originally Posted by Michael LeBlanc
what i would like to know is why isn't there an "Instrumental Forum" here so "we" lyricists can maybe write something for them. Some of the musicians may be great until it comes to putting words together. Sure you'll get some lame lyrics as we get lame music for our lyrics but something might jive from time to time.I think i've only taken one maybe two instrumentals here and wrote words for them.Not sure if they really actually liked it but it sure was fun for me to write with an awesome piece of music.So let's average it out and you musicians start putting some work out there for the lyricist.


A separate thread's not a bad idea, Mike.

Useful for me would be something in between. For example, I often create melodies for my lyrics (and I send the Audacity file to my collaborators), but it's much easier for me to get into a musical groove if I have a backing track to sing against.

I don't mean a full instrumental complete with melody - just a basic track in various genres/time signatures. It wouldn't be used outside the context of me creating a melody over it. It could even be the track (sans melody) of an already completed song, or simply a track for a song idea that's been abandoned. I'm sure composers have plenty of those, just as we lyricists are likely to have a drawer full of half-finished lyrics and still-waiting hook/title ideas. wink

In times past, it was easy to find 'free-to-download' tracks (intended for musicians to jam with), but those days seem to be gone. Everyone now is trying to sell everything they do. I don't mind that so much ($0.99 now and again won't break the bank) - what I hate is that to even be able to listen to some of the tracks you need to accept cookies on the website, which means even more crap spam landing in my email.

Anyway, this is just a thought. Maybe a section that would include random backing tracks for folks like me. Or, if instrumentals are posted specifically for collaboration, maybe someone would jump in to propose a lyric.

I strongly recommend though that composers seeking collaboration - at the very least - provide lyricists with a leadsheet. This makes it much easier to write a lyric for a melody.

Donna


Donna,

Just to let you know, a cookie itself doesn't lift your email, it gets something far more valuable. It tracks every site you have ever been to before and after when you have a cookie. It tracks what you type, it tracks what you click, it tracks just about everything you do after it is in there but it also goes back in time by lifting your various histories. It is permission essentially to spy on you. But.. and this is big, it takes a massive tech company to put that much into their apps and cookies etc. We have cookies here and it only does a couple of things: It saves your progress on this specific site so that when you revisit a post, it goes to where you left off etc. and it can remember who you are so you only have to log in one time per year. I have zero access to any info on you of any kind. I can see globally where ALL visitors come from and where all visitor go when they leave. But I almost never look at it because I am not selling anything. But most companies ARE so you are right to be cautious. Sadly all of us have knowingly or unknowingly given so many companies carte blanche to spy on us that outside of leaving online for good, they will always know just about everything there is to know about you. These companies know what food you eat because they buy your shopping info from the grocery stores and the credit card companies. This is why they so desperately want to get rid of ALL cash so you can't hide a single activity you participate in. They have you 10 different ways.

It sucks and it is getting dangerous. These companies have far more power than our governments. That is not hyperbole. I can see the day where the US military takes over these companies.. but that is only if they aren't behind all of them in the first place. All the ones up and running well were started with government money. So the deep state has it all. The NSA The military equivalent to the C_A has it all on EVERYONE.


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

[Linked Image]
#1154289 - 06/18/19 10:56 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 161
adf Offline
Serious Contributor
adf  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 161
Hamilton, Ontario
For me, there's always music in my mind when I write a lyric. I used to have a studio set-up where I could easily work on music and lyrics simultaneously, but that's all changed now. So, it's lyrics only for me.

Andy


If at first you don't succeed, try the 'ON' switch!
#1154291 - 06/18/19 11:38 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Fdemetrio]  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,462
Mark Kaufman Offline
Mark Kaufman  Offline

Top 40 Poster

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,462
Minneapolis
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Michael LeBlanc
what i would like to know is why isn't there an "Instrumental Forum" here so "we" lyricists can maybe write something for them.Some of the musicians may be great until it comes to putting words together.Sure you'll get some lame lyrics as we get lame music for our lyrics but something might jive from time to time.I think i've only taken one maybe two instrumentals here and wrote words for them.Not sure if they really actually liked it but it sure was fun for me to write with an awesome piece of music.So let's average it out and you musicians start putting some work out there for the lyricist.



Well I think its a great idea. Thing is "instrumentals" take alot of time and work for the musician.

Also alot of lyricists cant write to tracks, because it restricts them. But if done right this kind of thing leads to better songs for the lyricist.


In the industry today "Topliners" are in demand. A Topliner is someone who takes a finished instrumental track and creates what the singer singsólyrics and melody (and harmonies). Since music has gone digital, "producers" are now usually people who make "beats" (instrumental tracks). Topliners commonly come later, often hired like session musicians to create a topline for a fee and walk away, or share the copyright. It's an interesting development in an industry that still considers a song to be lyrics and melody.

#1154292 - 06/18/19 12:00 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,162
Fdemetrio Offline
Top 500 Poster
Fdemetrio  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,162
Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Michael LeBlanc
what i would like to know is why isn't there an "Instrumental Forum" here so "we" lyricists can maybe write something for them.Some of the musicians may be great until it comes to putting words together.Sure you'll get some lame lyrics as we get lame music for our lyrics but something might jive from time to time.I think i've only taken one maybe two instrumentals here and wrote words for them.Not sure if they really actually liked it but it sure was fun for me to write with an awesome piece of music.So let's average it out and you musicians start putting some work out there for the lyricist.



Well I think its a great idea. Thing is "instrumentals" take alot of time and work for the musician.

Also alot of lyricists cant write to tracks, because it restricts them. But if done right this kind of thing leads to better songs for the lyricist.


In the industry today "Topliners" are in demand. A Topliner is someone who takes a finished instrumental track and creates what the singer singsólyrics and melody (and harmonies). Since music has gone digital, "producers" are now usually people who make "beats" (instrumental tracks). Topliners commonly come later, often hired like session musicians to create a topline for a fee and walk away, or share the copyright. It's an interesting development in an industry that still considers a song to be lyrics and melody.


Yeah now with tracks and beats being so important, writing to a track is probably more important than it used to be but alot of great writers used to work with tracks anyway like Paul Simon for example. Hed write a track and not even know what the song would be called or about.

I always wondered when writing a track without any idea of a melody, how somebody can compose a track and have it work later on. To me melody determines where the music goes, particularly with hooks and choruses. When you write a track, how do you know what you have really? Its a bit of a crap shoot but can work better since the music has already been established and you got a song and a groove.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/18/19 12:04 PM.
#1154295 - 06/18/19 01:09 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 574
Gavin Sinclair Online content
Top 500 Poster
Gavin Sinclair  Online Content
Top 500 Poster

Joined: May 2017
Posts: 574
Conover, North Carolina, USA
Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Michael LeBlanc
what i would like to know is why isn't there an "Instrumental Forum" here so "we" lyricists can maybe write something for them.Some of the musicians may be great until it comes to putting words together.Sure you'll get some lame lyrics as we get lame music for our lyrics but something might jive from time to time.I think i've only taken one maybe two instrumentals here and wrote words for them.Not sure if they really actually liked it but it sure was fun for me to write with an awesome piece of music.So let's average it out and you musicians start putting some work out there for the lyricist.



Well I think its a great idea. Thing is "instrumentals" take alot of time and work for the musician.

Also alot of lyricists cant write to tracks, because it restricts them. But if done right this kind of thing leads to better songs for the lyricist.


In the industry today "Topliners" are in demand. A Topliner is someone who takes a finished instrumental track and creates what the singer singsólyrics and melody (and harmonies). Since music has gone digital, "producers" are now usually people who make "beats" (instrumental tracks). Topliners commonly come later, often hired like session musicians to create a topline for a fee and walk away, or share the copyright. It's an interesting development in an industry that still considers a song to be lyrics and melody.


I read about how some topliners just turn up, go into a booth and sing over the track whatever comes into their head, just random stuff, until eventually they hit on something that the producer thinks is catchy or striking. That becomes the hook. The rest is just filler that nobody pays any attention to anyway.

#1154297 - 06/18/19 01:26 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 161
adf Offline
Serious Contributor
adf  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 161
Hamilton, Ontario
To me, that makes sense. After all, it's the end sound that makes the song. The way everything gels together. Like sketching out a painting, then filling in the colour.


If at first you don't succeed, try the 'ON' switch!
#1154303 - 06/18/19 06:16 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 13,299
Michael LeBlanc Offline
Top 10 Poster
Michael LeBlanc  Offline
Top 10 Poster

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 13,299
Louisiana
well i like that Topliner stuff Mark.I'd like to be on top of that.

#1154304 - 06/18/19 06:18 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 13,299
Michael LeBlanc Offline
Top 10 Poster
Michael LeBlanc  Offline
Top 10 Poster

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 13,299
Louisiana
Also,i would try to write more than one lyric for each instrumental and give the other person choices.

#1154311 - Yesterday at 01:57 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 34
Ted Martin Offline
Casual Observer
Ted Martin  Offline
Casual Observer

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 34
Oregon
When I first started writing songs I thought music could be shaped and molded any way you wanted. Turns out that music has strict rules and is very unforgiving and your lyrics, no matter how you sing them, have to fit into that little box where the music lives and obey the rules. I learned this sitting down with a friend who lived in Laurel Canyon in the sixties and was sitting at the table with Canned Heat when they signed their first recording contract. He looked at me and said, "The problem with your song is you've got too many words. Go ahead and sing what you've got there...hold it, wait! I just ran out of music and you're still singing". I changed the wording of the song and he said "Now that will work". My friend, well he said every time he thought his ship was going to come in, it sank.

#1154336 - Yesterday at 01:24 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Fdemetrio]  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,462
Mark Kaufman Offline
Mark Kaufman  Offline

Top 40 Poster

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,462
Minneapolis
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
[
Yeah now with tracks and beats being so important, writing to a track is probably more important than it used to be but alot of great writers used to work with tracks anyway like Paul Simon for example. Hed write a track and not even know what the song would be called or about.

I always wondered when writing a track without any idea of a melody, how somebody can compose a track and have it work later on. To me melody determines where the music goes, particularly with hooks and choruses. When you write a track, how do you know what you have really? Its a bit of a crap shoot but can work better since the music has already been established and you got a song and a groove.


I do it sometimes. David Bowie did it oftenóhis sessions usually involved getting musicians together to create music, and it was only after the full musical track was finished that he would go off and topline it, then come back some other day, sometimes months later to record vocals.

Melody is an element of a song to me, usually but not always the dominant one. Coming from a rock background, I find chord structure probably leads my thinking even more than melody.

#1154340 - Yesterday at 02:47 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 7,516
couchgrouch Online content
Top 30 Poster
couchgrouch  Online Content
Top 30 Poster

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 7,516
cochise, az, usa
Regarding Sheila Davis, Pat Pattison etc...I've said it before.
If those people knew how to write great songs, they would. They know how to write books about great songs.

I've also said this before, show me an example of someone's writing before having read Pattison's book, then an example of their writing a year later. There won't be much
of a difference. I recall a bitter exchange with a woman over this issue many years ago. She still can't write.

And neither can you, FD!

Just thought I'd throw that in there.

My words are controversial! They imply not everyone has talent. Let the Senate hearings begin!

Last edited by couchgrouch; Yesterday at 02:47 PM.
Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4

Support Just Plain Folks

We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.


Membership
Join Just Plain Folks
to receive the free
JPNotes Newsletter!
*this is separate from
message board registration*

Newest Members
Kasu, Godsent, Marlyn23, Deall1988, LatoyaLGray
21200 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums116
Topics119,037
Posts1,122,005
Members21,200
Average Posts Daily30
Most Online1,541
Feb 21st, 2019
Just Plain Quotes
"Sometimes, the best thing you can say, isn't the easiest thing" -Brian Austin Whitney
Today's Birthdays
D Brax (38)
Popular Topics(Views)
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0