Who's Online Now
24 registered members (Harriet Ames, couchgrouch, Dave Rice, E Swartz, 9ne, David Snyder, Barry David Butler, Earl, Fdemetrio, 4 invisible), and 274 guests, and
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Shout Box
Member Spotlight
Michael Zaneski
Michael Zaneski
Posts: 4,608
Joined: July 2006
Show All Member Profiles 
What's Going On
I Remember Autumn
by IronKnee. 12/12/17 12:11 AM
Destiny Takes a Heart
by couchgrouch. 12/11/17 07:22 PM
I Didn't Wake Up This Morning.
by John Paragreen. 12/11/17 02:23 PM
Dear Mr. Goodell:
by Fdemetrio. 12/11/17 02:08 PM
Let's Fall In Love.
by John Paragreen. 12/11/17 02:02 PM
In My Dreams
by Nelson. 12/11/17 01:23 PM
by Johnny Daubert. 12/11/17 01:19 PM
Best used gear recommendations?
by Michael Zaneski. 12/11/17 11:31 AM
Thinking About You
by Ricki E. Bellos. 12/11/17 09:37 AM
It was you. New song. Vic
by Vicarn. 12/11/17 08:41 AM
by PopTodd. 12/11/17 08:31 AM
Hello (rewrite of a song I wrote in 2014)
by Paul Churchfield. 12/11/17 07:36 AM
by Travis david. 12/11/17 07:20 AM
The Rise and Fall of Fink the Elf
by lane1777. 12/10/17 10:57 PM
The four components
by Brian Austin Whitney. 12/10/17 08:52 PM
Life in Bethlehem Town - a Christmas parody
by TC Perkins. 12/10/17 07:32 PM
Add a link to YOUR favourite OWN original song
by TC Perkins. 12/10/17 06:46 PM
by Vicarn. 12/10/17 04:46 PM
Suite: Monster
by lane1777. 12/10/17 11:46 AM
A Woman's Touch
by couchgrouch. 12/10/17 11:38 AM
Corkscrew Alley
by Calvin. 12/10/17 11:14 AM
How I got my Musical name..
by Dave Rice. 12/10/17 09:41 AM
by Travis david. 12/10/17 04:38 AM
Touring Musicians?
by Barry David Butler. 12/09/17 11:43 PM
I'm A City Boy In A Country Town
by Barry David Butler. 12/09/17 09:59 PM
The nights are long when you're lonley
by PeteG. 12/09/17 09:49 PM
Show Me
by Martin Lide. 12/09/17 10:27 AM
Long Way Down
by Travis david. 12/09/17 06:12 AM
We Need Real Farmers (Revised)
by Neil Cotton. 12/08/17 11:02 PM
Top Posters(All Time)
Calvin 19,227
Kevin Emmrich 10,531
Travis david 10,368
Jean Bullock 10,330
Kaley Willow 10,240
Two Singers 9,571
Joice Marie 9,186
Mackie H. 8,748
Mike Dunbar 8,574
glynda 8,560
Tricia Baker 8,318
Colin Ward 7,828
Corey 7,357
couchgrouch 7,228
Wyman Lloyd 6,578
Mark Kaufman 6,428
Joe Wrabek 6,400
Dave Rice 6,233
ben willis 6,072
Lynn Orloff 5,788
Louis 5,718
Linda Sings 5,601
niteshift 5,323
Vicarn 5,294
KimberlyinNC 5,210
Derek Hines 4,893
DonnaMarilyn 4,605
Blake Hill 4,528
Bob Cushing 4,344
Bill Osofsky 4,199
Cindy Miller 4,178
Tom Shea 4,173
Neil Cotton 4,155
TamsNumber4 3,997
nightengale 3,965
Roy Cooper 3,908
Caroline 3,865
Kolstad 3,760
Dan Sullivan 3,710
MFB III 3,687
Dottie 3,427
joewatt 3,411
beechnut79 3,280
Bill Cooper 3,279
John Hoffman 3,199
Skip Johnson 3,027
Pam Hurley 3,007
Terry G 3,005
E Swartz 2,958
PopTodd 2,876
Harriet Ames 2,868
Nigel Quin 2,802
MidniteBob 2,692
Tom Tracy 2,558
Polly Hager 2,526
Jerry Jakala 2,524
Al Alvarez 2,499
Eric Thome 2,448
Nelson 2,433
Hummingbird 2,401
Stan Loh 2,263
Sam Wilson 2,241
Judy Hollier 2,232
Erica Ellis 2,202
Wendy D 2,151
TrumanCoyote 2,096
Marty Helly 2,012
DukeWill 1,984
Ray Thyer 1,929
Clint Anglin 1,904
cindyrella 1,888
David Wright 1,866
Clairejeanne 1,851
Cindy LaRosa 1,824
maccharles 1,770
floyd jane 1,713
Ronald Boyt 1,675
Noel Downs 1,620
Iggy 1,593
Cal 1,574
Rick Heenan 1,561
Jack Swain 1,554
Pete Larsen 1,537
Ann Tygart 1,529
Tom Breshers 1,487
Tom Franz 1,451
RogerS 1,445
Ralph Blight 1,440
Chuck Crowe 1,435
Kenneth Cade 1,429
Rick Norton 1,428
bholt 1,411
Letha Allen 1,406
in2piano 1,402
Stan Simons 1,402
mattbanx 1,384
Jen Shaner 1,373
Charlie Wong 1,347
KevinP 1,324
Vondelle 1,316
Tom W. 1,313
Jan Petter 1,300
scottandrew 1,292
DakLander 1,265
GocartMoz 1,261
Janice & Bud 1,243
Ian Ferrin 1,230
PeteG 1,226
Glen King 1,210
IdeaGuy 1,209
AaronAuthier 1,177
Diane Ewing 1,158
summeoyo 1,083
Gerry 1,082
BobbyJoe 1,075
joro 1,045
S.DEE 1,040
yann 1,037
Tony A 1,016
argo 986
peaden 984
Wolvman 960
lane1777 950
Jak Kelly 912
IronKnee 911
krtinberg 890
Drifter 886
Petra 883
RJC 845
Brenda152 840
Nadia 827
Juan 797
TKO 784
frahmes 781
teletwang 762
90 dB 745
tbryson 737
Andy K 733
Andy Kemp 732
Jackie444 720
ant 710
3daveyO3 704
Dayson 703
Dixie 701
Joy Boy 695
Knute 686
Lee Arten 678
Katziis 652
quality 637
9ne 633
CG King 622
douglas 621
Mel 614
NaomiSue 601
Shandy 589
Ria 587
TAMERA64 583
Pat Hardy 580
qbaum 570
nitepiano 565
Tink2 553
musica 539
deanbell 528
RobertK 527
Irwin 526
Roderic 522
Moosesong 516
BB Wilbur 511
goodfolks 499
Zeek 487
Stu 486
Steve P. 481
KathyW 462
allenb 459
MaxG 458
Philjo 454
fanito 448
trush48 448
R&M 444
dmk 442
arealrush 437
DGR 436
avweek 435
Stephen D 433
Emmy 431
Rob L 426
marquez 422
kit 419
Softkrome 417
kyrksongs 415
RRon 408
Laura G. 407
Debra 407
eb 406
cuebald 399
EdPerrone 398
Dannyk1 395
Hobart 395
Davyboy49 393
Smile 389
GJShades 387
Ezt 384
tone 380
Marla 380
iggyiggy 378
coalminer 377
Cecilee 376
java 374
spidey 371
sweetsong 370
danny 367
Jim Ryan 360
papaG 353
Alek 352
Z - man 350
John K 348
JamesDF5 347
Deej56 346
Jaden 344
ddreuter 341
TheBaz 340
Steggy 339
leif 339
tonedeaf 336
rickwork 334
Eddie Ray 332
Johnboy 328
Bob Lever 328
Helicon1 327
lucian 326
Muskie 321
kc 319
Z. Mulls 318
ptondreau 313
Chris B. 310
trush 304
ed323 297
Ellen M 293
lizzorn 291
nicnac49 290
pomeranj 289
Char 286
ktunes 285
mastrose 280
pammie 279
Register Today!
Welcome to the Just Plain Folks forums! You are currently viewing our forums as a Guest which gives you limited access to most of our discussions and to other features.

By joining our free community you will have access to post and respond to topics, communicate privately with our users (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free; so please join our community today!
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
#728992 - 06/11/09 08:38 PM Some thoughts (not mine) on playing live  
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,400
Joe Wrabek Offline
Top 40 Poster
Joe Wrabek  Offline
Top 40 Poster

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,400
Garibaldi, OR USA
Ran across the following on Portland (OR) Craigslist, where there's been a running discussion among musicians about how hard it is to get paying gigs. liked the sentiments. Posting it here because Craigslist makes post disappear entirely after 30 days (and sometimes faster).


No-pay gigs and exploitation by venues (Hollywood, PDX)
Reply to: comm-dbztg-1217063127@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]
Date: 2009-06-11, 3:13PM PDT

TO POST FLAGGERS: This musician's forum is for discussions related to the Portland Musical Community. This includes ads for musicians, venues AND DISCUSSING MUSICAL TOPICS. Please read the posting guidelines before you flag.

Yesterday I posted a list of venues that pay well for gigs. It's still floating around this board, so check it out.

I'm still seeing posts, however, from people complaining about being "exploited" by venues. This is bunk. I don't really care about people complaining that they aren't getting paid as much as they'd like, but I do feel an obligation to help educate and support my fellow musicians, just as I received help and support when I started playing this scene.

I now play in a gigging band that makes enough money to support ourselves (meagerly). I have never owned or worked in a club, but I do understand basic economics and the music venue business model.

I love Portland. I love the people here. I love how much support and guidence I received from other musicians when I first got to town, and I want to give something back. So in that spirit, I offer some lessons I've learned from playing this scene:

1. If you are trying to make it as a paid musician, you need to treat your music like a business.

If you play music as a hobby or purely for art, that's fine, but expect to get paid as much as a club would pay somebody to put their model train set on display. For many musicians, this is more satisfying than trying to make money. Playing for art's sake can also lead to a financially successful project, but that's not guaranteed. Just recognize why you are playing and learn to be satisfied with the non-material benefits.

If you want to make money, you need to have a product, which brings me to my next point...

2. As a band or performer, your product is fans.

It doesn't matter how good you are, or think you are, or a review said you are. It doesn't matter how much you spent on gear or how much gas cost you to drive to the venue. Venues will pay you money because you bring them fans.

I see a lot of posts about offered "free" gigs that complain about how little venues value all the time and money they have spent getting their band together. Do you value the cost of kitchen equipment when you buy a $1 cheeseburger from McDonalds? Or do you think, "wow, that's a pretty crappy cheeseburger, even for $1."

Just as you only care about the cheeseburger when you spend your buck, venues only care about your product, fans. They get the same value from an a cappella group with 50 fans as a electronic group with 50 fans, even though the electronic group has sunk way more into their gear. I know this seems unfair, but that's because...

3. Venues are businesses too.

I know everybody "knows" this, but performers seem to forget it when they are trying to get their own paying gigs. Just like your band has gas and equipment costs, the venues have their costs as well. PAs, sound guys, and door guys -- not to mention the operating costs of the non-musical portion of the venue -- all cost money. If your project is not bringing in enough fan revenue to offset those costs, then it isn't profitable to have you play, even for free.

Keep in mind that for venues that aren't dedicated to music, like coffee shops and bars, your band is going to drive away some customers. Some people won't like your genre, some people just don't want to hear live music. For the dedicated music venues, you probably won't make customers leave, but you have to work extra hard to offset the costs of the PA and sound guy.

What's that you say? You have a killer band but no fans? That's because you need to...

4. Promote, promote, promote.

Putting up flyers and handouts is OK, but I've seen almost no effect from these tactics. One of the best ways you can promote your band is by word of mouth. Tell your friends. Tell your friends to tell your friends. Tell your boss and your crazy uncle and that weird guy you met at the bar last night. Meet as many new people as you can after every show and tell them. If you meet anybody in any way related to the music industry, make them repeat your band name 5 times before they leave your sight.

You need to be approachable and likeable after a show. Being a dark and brooding guitar player may be cool when you're established, but people are much more likely to go to your shows if they like you. I used to play in a band where the guitar player acted aloof after each show. Yeah, he was a technical wizard on the guitar, but people aren't going to support somebody who acts like a dick to them.

What's that you say? You have a ton of fans but still no paying gigs? Well the best thing you can do now is to...

5. Play free shows.

"No!" I hear you say. "We're beyond that. We have fans." Yes, but you don't have paying gigs. That's because the venues that pay aren't aware of you yet. But they will be. Just like girls are more attracted to guys that already have girlfriends, venues are attracted to bands that are already playing other venues.

Everytime you play a show, put it up on Jambase. Send it to the Portland Mercury. Promoters and bookers scan these listings to see who's hot right now. If your name comes up week after week, they will notice you. It may take time: my current band played nothing but free shows for a year before we got attention from the bigger venues. But everytime you see a Craigslist post for a free gig and pass it up, you are passing up free publicity.

It's not like you aren't getting something from the free shows. You are getting better at your instrument, you are getting new fans, and you are getting exposure to the local music scene -- all these things lead to paying gigs. If you do well, the venue will contact you again. If you think you're good enough, tell them you won't play without compensation.

I'm sure that some of you feel like you already know all of this. You've got the fans, you've played the free gigs, and the only reason you're not making big money on gigs right now is because greedy club owners are exploiting bands in this town. They know you'll play for any price, and are hogging all of those fat profits themselves.

Sound familiar?

Time to put up or shut up.

If you really think you aren't getting paid because the venues are stealing the profit, then cut out the middleman. Rent out one of the many available venues/warehouses/dance studios in town, rent or buy a PA, and put on a show yourself.

Times are tough right now for everybody, especially musicians. But let's stop taking out our frustration on each other. We need to support each other -- not just the musicians, but the venues, the promoters, the managers, the fans. It's all interconnected. The more that musicians rip on venues, or fans rip on bands, the less success and fun we will all have.

#730392 - 06/17/09 07:33 AM Re: Some thoughts (not mine) on playing live [Re: Joe Wrabek]  
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 13
1hotroddie Offline
Casual Observer
1hotroddie  Offline
Casual Observer

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 13
Las Vegas, NV

All SO very true & well written.

...You can't always get what you want; but if you try sometimes you get what you need......Rolling Stones

Support Just Plain Folks

We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.

Join Just Plain Folks
to receive the free
JPNotes Newsletter!
*this is separate from
message board registration*

Newest Members
juliettrowe, djmushi, Davood, RonnieDean, CharlotteSullivan
20973 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Average Posts Daily42
Most Online1,506
Mar 16th, 2017
Just Plain Quotes
"That's just my opinion, I could be right" -Brian Austin Whitney
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Popular Topics(Views)
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0