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Hey Folks,

how are you today?
A big producer listened to my song "A Stranger Told me You Were Gone". He said that it was a good song, that he loved the verses, but he also said that it needed an entirely different hook and a new chorus.

Here's an attempt at rewriting it. What d'ya think, before I ask for his opinion once again?
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7642121

Thanks in advance, take care.

Yann

A WHOLE YEAR (AND A DAY)
© 2009 Yann Causeret
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

Verse 1
The cat is crouching near the fish bowl
A man is waving on the screen
The kids are now lost in their dreams

Verse 2
Some clouds are gathering in silence
A car is coasting down the street
The upstairs neighbors do not sleep

Chorus
I WATCH THE PHONE; IT DOESN’T RING AND I CAN'T SEE
WHY WE SHOULD EVER GO AWAY
I STILL REMEMBER; THEN, OUR LOVE WOULD BE THE KEY
IT’S BEEN A WHOLE YEAR AND A DAY

Verse 3
I’m standing right here by the window
The night is creeping off the square
You’ve never sat in that new chair

Verse 4
The clock is ticking hours and seconds
I clear my throat; I say a prayer
Don’t want the kids to think life’s unfair

Chorus
I WATCH THE PHONE; IT DOESN’T RING AND I CAN'T SEE
WHY WE SHOULD EVER GO AWAY
I STILL REMEMBER; THEN, OUR LOVE WOULD BE THE KEY
IT’S BEEN A WHOLE YEAR AND A DAY

Chorus out
I WATCH THE PHONE; IT DOESN’T RING AND I CAN'T SEE
WHY WE SHOULD EVER GO AWAY
I STILL REMEMBER; THEN, OUR LOVE WOULD BE THE KEY
IT’S BEEN A WHOLE YEAR AND A DAY
IT’S BEEN A WHOLE YEAR AND A DAY

Last edited by yann; 05/28/09 09:05 PM.

"Honey, I know, I know, I know times are changin' / It's time we all reach out 4 something new" (Prince)

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Yuk ! Yuk, yuk, yuk ! Good grief Yann, you've taken a beautifully written, expressed, and delivered song, which was written with a sublime beauty, and turned it into morose rubbish.

Ahh geez, just re-read my first few lines. Never mind. I'm never one to hold back. I still have your origional in my favourite JPF folder, and have just listened to them back to back. There's no comparison. All the origional needs, is for the acoustic guitar to be turned down, and a well thought subtle orchestral arrangement to finish it off.

Producer ? What producer ? Let me kick his damn ass. I have a long stalled film project, which has an explained death scene in it, and a song such as this, just fits right with the visual aspects. The loss of reality, the random thoughts which don't fit. The shock, the fear and everything else. And as you did it before, not morose, just real. A very touching piece.

Now ? Crikey mate, just bin it. I'm not going to mince words here, as what I thought you did previosly, was a fine line between the situation, and how it was expressed. And put into a visual situation, there wouldn't be a dry eye in the house. That's what I call great songwriting.

Hmm, guess I like the song huh ? Just put up the origional link, side by side, and get a few more opinions. I think you have mine. crazy confused And if I'm wrong, I'll buy you a case of beer !

cheers, niteshift



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yann Offline OP
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Hi niteshift,

thanks for your feedback!

I hope this is going to be an interesting thread, as I also thought there was nothing much to change in the "Stranger" version.

But you know what it is: professional evaluation. As I'm a total nobody in the world of songwriting, I thought I could try and experiment.

Maybe it DOES need a new chorus and I've just written a BAD replacement one. Or maybe, as you say, I should NOT rewrite it AT ALL, as many people like it as is.

I've got nothing to lose, trying new things, as the previous version remained unscathed. I'll do as you say, here are the 2 links, so people can compare. Of course, the 2nd version is just a rough worktape, the 1st one being a bit more polished.

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7642121
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7474603

Goddam, I'm now totally puzzled, what do they need in the professional world eek?

Thanks, Yann


Last edited by yann; 05/28/09 03:03 PM.

"Honey, I know, I know, I know times are changin' / It's time we all reach out 4 something new" (Prince)

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I wouldn't sweat it Yann. As for professioal, it's all just a matter of opinion.

Quote
I hope this is going to be an interesting thread, as I also thought there was nothing much to change in the "Stranger" version.


I would agree. This song is generic enough in it's approach, to just be tweaked here and there, to fit a particular scene, without altering it's substace. If you had a particular offer for it, with a request to re-write certain parts, maybe a name change, or whatever, I could understand.

Perhaps I just listen to it, and totally understand it, and think it should be left alone. Again, when the writer has the same point of view, I don't see why someone who is a so called professional calls for a re-write. In my view, any professional person that I've ever met can clearly see it's intent.

My wife walked by one day, past my home studio ( she's pro audio also, more than me ), I was playing this song and having a bit of a think, she sat down, with her cup of tea, had a listen, shed a tear, got up and carried on. Unspoken.

Please don't let opinion, mine or any one elses, ruin a great song. There are very few songs which can deal with a difficult subject matter, in such a controlled way.

Up to you buddy. I'll gladly send you the case of beer, but hope I don't have to.

cheers, niteshift

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yann Offline OP
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Niteshift,

thanks a lot for coming back.

I'm touched by your wife's reaction too, thanks much for letting me know.

I'll be glad to read some more opinions, for the pure sake of learning. The man said "I'd love to hear it rewritten" and I just thought I would get my first cut ever by simply doing it. Seems it could be less simple than that, laugh

Take care,

yann


"Honey, I know, I know, I know times are changin' / It's time we all reach out 4 something new" (Prince)

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Yes, it happens that way. If your producer would like to call me, he's welcome.

If he's genuine, he won't have a problem with it.

My answerphone, goes straight to record, but if I hear it , I'll pick it up.

You're probably aware, that I'm annoyed. And I'm annoyed that a good song is about to be wrecked. I can't do anything for you at the moment, but just put in my opinion.

I choose to do so on a public bullitin board, as when someone claims to be a "big" producer, and can't hear quality in content, then I kind of shake my head. Hey, it's only my opinion, but please make your own decisions on your own gut feeling. Best to you.

cheers, niteshift

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Yann,

You need to just put one "professionals" opinion into perspective. He/she too is a human being with likes and dislikes, and if you ask ten, there might be agreement in some areas, whereas in more subjective areas there might be a lot of disagreement. Songwriting is more slippery than surgery.

I loved version 2, with "stranger" in place of "someone"...

Ask yourself, "how is this new chorus better" or SPECIFICALLY...how is "it's been a whole year and a day" a stronger hook than either "a stranger/someone told me you were gone" ??

that's the only question that matters, as far is this hook or that...

and so I ask you, how is "it's been a whole year and a say" better?

it's way more passive...a year and a day has passed...the immediacy, the shock of being told a loved one had died...not there now...

ON the other hand:

how sad and poignant that the events sting just as much a whole year later!

When we "fall in love" with a song, it's not necessarily because it's "perfect"...your earlier versions may be inferior, craft wise (I don't think so personally, I'm just making a point, here!), but we humans tend to prefer the ones we "fell in love with", in all their imperfection, because they're the ones that opened up our hearts.

Having said that, I think you have a stalemate:

what is gained with the idea that the singer has been grieving for a year is lost by the more impactful immediacy of versions one and two.

You will take this new one to the "pro", and he might say, "you need to hit the listener over the head with how everyday for your singer is like that moment right when he found out she was gone. 'A year and a day' buries all that emotion..."

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 05/28/09 06:04 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
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yann Offline OP
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Hi Mike,

thanks a lot for stopping by.

Here's exactly what I've been told when I sent the song for evaluation.
I don't think I'll infringe any copyright by quoting a small part of it.
I don't know the exact name of the person (he/she is a coach at SongU, named by a number only, but said to be a hit producer/publisher). I totally trust the people at SongU, but I do know that one opinion is just ONE opinion.
The evaluation was positively encouraging. But there's this part:

"I'd love to hear this with a new chorus and i think "A STRANGER TOLD ME YOU WERE GONE" is another song"
"I think you have 2 separate songs here.....these verses to me need a different chorus and hook"

I tried to write this new chorus. Not a very easy type of exercise. Anyway, I did it, and my gut feeling tells me I lost a lot of impact in the process. Maybe I should just try again. Or maybe I'm just wasting time and energy.

How would you read those above comments, what would your reaction be, if you were me? I'm just trying to write the best possible song, I'd say professional feedback is undeniably necessary, but I must admit I'm a bit lost this time.

Thanks for your comments and insight. Take care,

Yann



"Honey, I know, I know, I know times are changin' / It's time we all reach out 4 something new" (Prince)

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Quote
When we "fall in love" with a song, it's not necessarily because it's "perfect"...your earlier versions may be inferior, craft wise, but we humans tend to prefer the ones we "fell in love with", in all their imperfection, because they're the ones that opened up our hearts.


Hey Michael,

I couldn't agree more. To write a song of shear beauty, of simplicity, of a sence where everything just fits is very hard to do.

I used to think it was all about the 'best player', so I studied jazz, next I thought it was about orchestration, so I studied that. Then I thought it was about a natural player who can sing a tune, ...... and so on, and so forth.

But I still come back, to the guy that can move an audience. He can get on a stage and silance an audience. I've only ever seen it done twice, and would like it to be done again. It may may be in a famous joint, but best of all, it would be done in a packed pub, where the patrons fall silent.

To me, that's the best deal a songwriter can ever do, so hence my comments. It takes a lot to floor me these days, but I'll go with the origional.

cheers, niteshift

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Originally Posted by yann
producer/publisher).

"I'd love to hear this with a new chorus and i think "A STRANGER TOLD ME YOU WERE GONE" is another song"
"I think you have 2 separate songs here.....these verses to me need a different chorus and hook"

I tried to write this new chorus. Not a very easy type of exercise. Anyway, I did it, and my gut feeling tells me I lost a lot of impact in the process. Maybe I should just try again. Or maybe I'm just wasting time and energy.


Hi Yann,

I think a "Pro-Critiquer" can "dumb himself down" when he listens and speak as if he were an average listener. Certainly to any semi-intelligent person there are obvious connections between the detailed observations made in your verses and in the shock being expressed in the chorus: the events around the shock become like a tape loop, an ingrained memory, a sad movie the singer must play over and over again. That your Pro Critiquer says "there's two songs here" sounds like he's pretending to be "dumb" so as to "act as if" he knows how "some guy off the street" might react to your lyric, and that might be a presumptuous and bad move on the part of your Pro Critiquer. I certainly do not want to think that a "Pro" missed the connections between the verses and chorus?

A more sound suggestion might have been, "make the connections more obvious" in a build, pre-chorus, or drop a verse and put the connections in a bridge, etc...those "connections" could make an interesting part unto themselves.

You could have the best of both versions too, with a minimum amount of rewriting, as in, add a tag to version one or two, where it is made clear to the listener that everything he is experiencing is years ago, and he's been "reliving it" somehow...

Or not, lol...

...the idea is, IMPACT and immediacy are so important in a song. You have only so much time, only so many words to convey an emotion, feeling, thought, idea, etc...

"A stranger told me" puts us in the moment with the singer. "A whole year and a day" makes a listener have to think a while to go "wow, he's been sad a long time..."...there IS some impact, but nothing close to versions one or two, IMHO, and I again reiterate, the connections between verses and chorus are readily apparent to any semi-intelligent listener. Perhaps the Pro-Critiquer was speaking from a very narrow perspective of the "formula for a hit", and had put all questions of artistry below the narrowest definition of craft...

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 05/29/09 02:58 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

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Hi Yann,

I listened to both songs. I definitely like the verses in both versions, but I agree with Niteshift in that I think the original chorus had more impact/feeling.

When I listen to the new version, I still like the song overall but the chorus feels a little weak to me (because the song is so good, I am expecting more out of the chorus and in version #2, I feel a little disappointed whereas I didn't in the first). On the other hand, I most agree with the advice given to trust your gut and think that both versions have great potential, but my two cents is that if you do go with version #2, I would still revisit tweaking the chorus somehow to give it a little more emotional and/or musical impact.

Cheers,

Burt

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yann Offline OP
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Hi Burt, nice to meet you.

Thanks a lot for your comments.
I've followed your advice and tweaked version #2, both changing some lyrics in the chorus and re-recording the song to get a less poor performance.
Anyway, it seems people like version #1 better. That's not a problem, far from it. But I'm pushing the rewriting work to its limits, keeps me fit, lol.

Take care,

Yann


"Honey, I know, I know, I know times are changin' / It's time we all reach out 4 something new" (Prince)

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Hey Mike and Niteshift,

thanks again for coming back.

I sure appreciate and learn from your comments. I'm now doing the best I can, I've rewritten a part of the chorus and re-recorded a new performance of the song, nobody can say I'm not doing the job seriously, lol. I consider it an exercise in songwriting, and I'm honored and flattered that you should still consider the original version as a moving song, after so many listenings, smile.

Thanks again, take care,

Yann


"Honey, I know, I know, I know times are changin' / It's time we all reach out 4 something new" (Prince)

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Hi Yann,

It is nice to meet you also. Great, I am glad you appreciated the comments and are enjoying the rewriting work. I certainly would be interested in hearing future updates (dare I say, "final version"??) ;-)

Cheers,

Burt

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Hi Yann
Nice to "meet" you.I am by no ones standards a professional at anything,but I do know what appeals to me.I think that your first version is absolutely beautiful,and very heartfelt.The other version was very good,but it just didnt have the same impact on my emotions.I'm sure that there are many folks out there who could critique a song in a professional manner,but feel that it must be very hard to differentiate quality and personal preference.I have learned that some professionals only like happy,upbeat songs.some prefer country.some prefer rock.It sometimes seems that they will try to get you to change the whole meaning of the song that you have written,just for it to be pleasing to thier ears.I think you have written a song that comes from your heart and it is very beautiful.I think many people will relate to it.I say follow your heart.....


*****You know I'm a dreamer,but my heart's of gold*****Motley Crue


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So do I owe you a case of beer ? Or maybe just a bottle or two. smile

cheers, niteshift

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Hey Nite,

I really like beer, but in this case, the bottle was too "expensive", lol. I'd rather buy the case myself and share it with you than ruin a song. Well, on second thoughts, I could even do that without a song being considered.

Anyway, I think the experiment was worth it. I always try to be open-minded, and take action on any sort of advice people give me. But then, of course, my feeling is given due consideration. It's just that I try to get as many options as I can - other people's included - otherwise our choice and freedom would be limited, wouldn't they?

If you ever want to use my song in a film, I won't be long before granting you the license, laugh I'll be very proud indeed. I've listened to a lot of your work now, it's very impressive. I especially like what you did with Letha Allen.

Thanks again, cheers,

Yann


"Honey, I know, I know, I know times are changin' / It's time we all reach out 4 something new" (Prince)

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Originally Posted by niteshift
So do I owe you a case of beer ? Or maybe just a bottle or two. smile

cheers, niteshift


Hey Nite,

It looks like the old version shut-out the new, 5-0!

Btw, I may have been confusing you, you're aware there were three versions, right? ...and that #1 was "someone told me", #2 "a stranger told me" and #3 "A Whole Year"...

...so that when I said I liked version #2, I was speaking of "A Stranger told me you were gone"...just making sure. smile

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 05/29/09 05:55 AM.

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Hi Michelle,

thanks a lot for your comments and kind words.

Rewriting: either we don't do it enough or we do it too much. the bottom line: do people - not in your family, lol - like it? Does the writer like it? If the answer is yes, we should proudly pass on to the next song.

I'm currently finishing other songs as well. I just had to try another option with this one before letting it live its life.

Glad - and honored - you like the song. Heart is the only standard, you're right. I sure appreciate your post. Take care, cheers,

Yann


"Honey, I know, I know, I know times are changin' / It's time we all reach out 4 something new" (Prince)

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Yann my dear friend
I too thought your original version was perfect. Not that this one is bad but from my heart I am telling you that you hit a 9 out of 10 on the first version, please go back to it ok

this is very good but your first version was great

your friend
Dan


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Hi Dan, how are you?

thanks a lot for adding your voice to the ... hum, debate? Seems there wasn't any debate, right?

Time for me to show JPF folks other songs. It's going to be very soon.

Thanks again, always a pleasure to read you,

Yann


"Honey, I know, I know, I know times are changin' / It's time we all reach out 4 something new" (Prince)

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Hi Yann - HAPPY BIRTHDAY !

Well as you May know I'm also pretty fond of the last version and I Thought that you were Really there... on the writing and then working out the musical version.

With That said -- I think the new one IS also very GOOD- Nothing wrong with exploring an option.

here's an offering for your chorus .....

Quote
I WATCH THE PHONE; IT DOESN’T RING AND I CAN'T SEE
WHY WE SHOULD EVER GO AWAY
I STILL REMEMBER; THEN, OUR LOVE WOULD BE THE KEY
IT’S BEEN A WHOLE YEAR AND A DAY


I WATCH THE PHONE; IT DOESN’T RING AND I CAN'T SEE
How It's BEEN A YEAR you went AWAY
I STILL hear you say OUR LOVE WOULD BE THE KEY
IT’S BEEN A WHOLE YEAR AND A DAY

Hobbes-- one of My personal favorites ; )

[Linked Image]

Last edited by Joice Marie; 05/29/09 06:36 PM.

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Yann, my main man in France, this is a really good song. The melody is really top notch, and when you have a really great melody, to a certain extent, whatever lyrics you put with it will work well.

The original version is overall better, but I still think, as I did the first time I saw lyric without music in the mentor critic thingamegib, that trying to capture the moment you learn of a loved one's death is a better artistic project for a painter rather than a songwriter. Some things in life are ineffable, and maybe that's one of them.

Maybe the best song is somewhere in between the two versions. Do you know like when something really nice happens, or you see something really great, and you have a really great feeling, but it only lasts a moment, because you then think this is really great but I'm seeing this great thing or feeling this great feeling alone and without anyone to share it with, and the great feeling you had is replaced by a feeling of emptiness and sadness. And maybe you remember someone who is no longer around and wish that they were still here. I can't think of an English word to describe such a feeling, is there French word for such a thing?

And you know what else I was thinking, that the last line of the chorus in the first version is a big weak point of the song and I think the producer guy was maybe thinking that as well, and I was thinking wouldn't it be really cool if you just started singing in French for that last line? Maybe something like "Je suis laisse seul dans ce monde"?

Anyway, just some ideas.

Lucian

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Hi Joice,

thanks for your post.
These are very good suggestions.
Not much time for now, I'll be back soon.
Take care,

Yann


"Honey, I know, I know, I know times are changin' / It's time we all reach out 4 something new" (Prince)

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Hi Lucian,

nice to hear from you again.

Thanks for your comments. My problem is, I've now got something which is quite difficult to improve now. Every time I try to adress those remaining issues, what I gain somewhere is lost somewhere else. i think I'd better work on my other songs and go back when I've learned more craft, i'm not really up to the task now.

Anyway, I'm quite satisfied to have something decent for the time being. Thanks again for your comments.

Did you finish your record? i remember you were on a project, how's it going?

Take care,

yann


"Honey, I know, I know, I know times are changin' / It's time we all reach out 4 something new" (Prince)

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Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Originally Posted by niteshift
So do I owe you a case of beer ? Or maybe just a bottle or two. smile

cheers, niteshift


Hey Nite,

It looks like the old version shut-out the new, 5-0!

Btw, I may have been confusing you, you're aware there were three versions, right? ...and that #1 was "someone told me", #2 "a stranger told me" and #3 "A Whole Year"...

...so that when I said I liked version #2, I was speaking of "A Stranger told me you were gone"...just making sure. smile

Mike


Yep, gotcha ! I didn't know there was a previous to that, but the line " A stranger told me you were gone" just sums up the song. So very true too, when you think about it. It's always a nurse, a doctor, a policeman at the door.

I like your points about the dis-connect also. The dis-connect "two songs in one" thing works perfectly, perhaps not for a song critiquer, but definitly to those who are listening to it.

Which ever way Yann, ya got a winner there mate.

cheers, niteshift

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I like the original version best.

Tom


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Yann,

Guess I can speak from some personal experience here. This happened to me. My sister was killed in a car accident and my mother and I drove-up on the scene of the accident. I went and asked the police officer about my sister and he told me she had died.

It strikes me that both versions take place in the past, one in the days following the death and one a year later. I think I agree with Lucian that maybe the best version yet will be the one in between. The beauty of this song is the story you tell in the verses. Whenever you remember the loss, it's as if time stands still..or at least you do, while time goes on without you. That's the heart of this song. Maybe the key to the chorus is not in qualifying the time, but solidifiying how relentlessly life continues, even when you just wish it would stop for a short while.

I liked both versions for different reasons, I suppose. They are both very good. Sorry, guess I'm no help:)


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Hi Yann,

It's all so subjective, isn't it? What we "like" or don't "like" can change with the day or our mood at the moment. We can nit this to death but will you have a better song when we're through? Which version do YOU like? If you don't know, put it away for a while, write another 2 or 3 songs, then look at it again with fresh eyes and ears. As they say, go with your gut.

Ricki

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Hey Nite,

how does it feel to be 100% right? smile

I'm a bit stubborn and had to check out myself.
No, it's more like this: even though I knew it all the way, I needed people to tell me, all the same. When I have 2 or 3 cuts cool, I'll be more self-confident and sure of my choices, not to be shaken by just one opinion ... hopefully ... or not confused.

Anyway, thanks for coming back and your kind words. I'm especially proud when you say you like the song, because I've seen you're not one for the backpatting laugh

Keep on being yourself. I hope we can drink a beer together, one of these days. We're a bit faraway from one another for the time being, but who knows, life's surprising!

Take care,

Yann


"Honey, I know, I know, I know times are changin' / It's time we all reach out 4 something new" (Prince)

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Hi Tom,

thanks for adding your voice to the polls.

Seems I was the only one (apart from the producer, of course) to be uncertain. You all have been very helpful in my - our? -decision to stand my/our ground in front of the "business", as represented by this one person. Either that was one of the few cases he wasn't right, or maybe I didn't fully understand what he meant.

Thanks again, take care,

Yann


"Honey, I know, I know, I know times are changin' / It's time we all reach out 4 something new" (Prince)

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Hi Wendy,

first of all, sorry you had a personal experience of that objective - and maybe brutal and insensitive - way of learning about the death of a loved one.

If you remember, I was writing what people call the "original" - definitely not a first draft - at a time I was really expecting such a phone call. There must be some truth in my "original" because of my feelings then. I knew it was going to happen, I just didn't know when, and when it did happen, it was painful enough as it was. I just can imagine how almost unbearable it must be when it comes as a shock, that's why I'm so really sorry for you and your family.

Thanks for your post, take care,

Yann



"Honey, I know, I know, I know times are changin' / It's time we all reach out 4 something new" (Prince)

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Hi Ricki,

I can definitely understand the truth of what you're saying here. I like the first version, as everybody does. And that should be the end of it.

There's been a last sequence of rewriting because of the professional evaluation, which was half enthusiastic, half asking for a rewrite. As I'm not really acquainted with those evaluations, I've been shaken into rewriting a song I didn't feel the need to. And of course, I somewhat failed . But I was right to do it, because I've learned things in the process.

And one of these things is: people at JPF give good and valuable advice. Even when - and sometimes because - they're not "professionals". These boards are the real place to be when you want to improve your craft.

Thanks a lot. Take care,

Yann

Last edited by yann; 06/01/09 06:25 PM.

"Honey, I know, I know, I know times are changin' / It's time we all reach out 4 something new" (Prince)

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Yann,

When pro guys say things like that, it means that they don't like it! It'll take a while to crack the pro language, but that's basically it. He was just kind enough to express interest in your work.

You should keep your original song as it is, and be happy you captured a great feel, and move on.

Songwriting is a numbers game, so if people don't like it, write'em another one.

So next time, you have your leg pulled like that you can pull another up from you stack of papers or demos and say "well, how about this one, then?".

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Quote
Hey Nite,

how does it feel to be 100% right?


Feels fine Yann, I'm used to it ! grin ( kidding )

Look foward to that beer, and a chit-chat one day.

cheers, niteshift


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