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#715105 - 04/28/09 04:16 AM What has worked for you?  
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Billy Darnell Offline
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Hi Everyone,

In another thread we were discussing the pro's and con's of a marketing system, and niteshift contributed this little tid bit:

If you want to GET PAID for audio streams, then join Independant Artists . The sign up fee ( after joining ) is a once off $7.50 , and you'll make that back in 1 or 2 months. More, if your music is "popular".

Something I was not familiar with and I thought, wouldn't it be great if all of us contributed and shared just one piece of information on a marketing concept, or a money making concept, that we have found some success with, or that maybe we just feel was very helpful in getting our songs out there to the world wide listening audience.

I have always conformed to the philosophy that what ever you gave to help others would come back to you tenfold, but in order to get, you first had to be willing to give. I guess this thread will be a good test of that philosophy.

I will start out by sharing one of the things I did early in my quest that eventually allowed me to build a list of 390 Dj's, sell some CD's, and develop a couple hundred new fans. Those 390 DJ's will now accept an MP3 file from me for any songs I wish to release, and they assure me that when they get it, they will play it, and they do. To have the ability to get this kind of exposure is a priceless commodity.

There is a social networking platform of sorts called PalTalk.
you can find it at www.paltalk.com.

There are a number of ways you can interact there, some good, some bad, you make the choice. Once you get on there and get registered, when you sign in you will have an option to view all rooms, where you will see file folders for the different rooms available. If you click on the music rooms, you will find a list of the different genre's of music rooms available, I click on country music, and it reveals a list of 35 to 50 rooms. Some of them are listening only rooms, and some of them even let you play what ever music you want by raising your hand. This is a good way to get your music heard, and generate interest in yourself, and your music, and unlike Yahoo, there are no punters.

In the listening only rooms you will find generally 4 or 5 DJ's that play music in them. Get to know the DJ's, and eventually Pm them and see if they will accept a copy of your song, and maybe play it on their show. Spending times in these rooms and letting the people their get to know a little bit about you is pretty important.If the roomies like you, and the Dj's like you, they will more than likely favor playing your music. It can be somewhat of a popularity contest at times.

I know that many of you have heard that internet stations generally aren't as effective, or meaningful, and they are a waste of time when it comes to exposure. I couldn't disagree more. In this environment you will find that many of the internet stations are tied to AM/FM stations in the real world.
Some of the room owners actually own 3 or 4 real life stations as well as their internet project. Most of the Dj's have real life friends that are DJ's that work at local stations in their community, and they can be a big help in getting your music played on them if they feel it's worthy. One Dj that I met on their was from New Zealand, through another DJ's referral I had sent him 2 songs that I had released earlier, he liked them enough to ask me for more material from my current CD, which he guaranteed he would air on his 2 stations there. So I sent him a digital copy of the CD. Two week later he emailed me to say how much the folks there enjoyed my music, and he hoped I didn't mind that he had sent it out to about a 100 other DJ's and asked them to consider it for airplay as well. He wasn't joking, for the next two months I got emails from DJ's through out that area requesting any additional material I might have for them to play. It wasn't long and I had several hundred real live Dj's that wanted any new releases I put out,and they all were willing to accept an MP3 file to get it.

I really feel like this was a major step in the promotion and marketing of my music.

It doesn't cost you anything but time, and I think you'll find it pays real dividends in the end.

I hope that helps some of you.

Billy Darnell



#715123 - 04/28/09 07:20 AM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Billy Darnell]  
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Jim Offerman Offline
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Originally Posted by Billy Darnell
If you want to GET PAID for audio streams, then join Independant Artists . The sign up fee ( after joining ) is a once off $7.50 , and you'll make that back in 1 or 2 months. More, if your music is "popular".


What's the url?

Great idea, btw, to dedicate a thread to posting stuff that works. I have a bunch of things I'm trying... will be sure to report here how things pan out.


Jim Offerman ~ inspirational pop music
blog - follow me twitter - buy 'Start Here' on bandcamp!
#715125 - 04/28/09 07:32 AM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Jim Offerman]  
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Hi Jim,

The name of the company was independent artist, but the link that niteshift had took me here. I didn't get time to check it out yet but for what it's worth , here it is.

http://iacmusic.com/

Apparently Independent artist is the parent company.

Hope tat helps.

Billy Darnell

#715126 - 04/28/09 07:42 AM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Billy Darnell]  
Joined: Dec 2006
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niteshift Online content
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Hey Jim,

The intro and info page is here....

http://iacmusic.com/news1/spotlight/intro/IntroToIAC.html

cheers, niteshift

#715127 - 04/28/09 07:46 AM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: niteshift]  
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Hey niteshift,

thank you for clarifying on that subject, I appreciate it, and I am sure everyone here does too.



Billy Darnell

#715129 - 04/28/09 08:13 AM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Billy Darnell]  
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Jim Offerman Offline
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Thanks! I think I've been to that website before, but I dismissed it because of it's last century looks... I suppose a poor looking website doesn't always mean it don't work wink


Jim Offerman ~ inspirational pop music
blog - follow me twitter - buy 'Start Here' on bandcamp!
#715174 - 04/28/09 11:39 AM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Jim Offerman]  
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Good idea. Thanks for sharing. Here is my idea - a concept really. It is based on the prmise that selling a song or cd is based on this Hear it - Like it Buy it. (I leared that here from multiple sources). Instead of shotgunning, target very specific audiences - not necessarily music forums. If one can idnetify a target audience, think of where those people are and what they do. Then go after them there.

For example, many tween girls like to roller skate, so for Justice's cd, we are asking the local roller skating rink to play her songs and sell her cd and have little mini concerts or sing alongs.

Tom


Thomas Shea

Thomas Shea - Songwriting
http://www.soundclick.com/thomasshea

Justice - Songs
http://www.soundclick.com/justice-nebraska

#715194 - 04/28/09 12:15 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Tom Shea]  
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Hi Tom,

Seems like a very good idea, and I bet it works,let us know how it works out.


Have you done anything up to this point that you have found some success with? I know you been at this for a bit, and even the littlest inroad can make a big difference to the folks just getting started.

My intent with this thread is to get real, been there, done that, and it actually help me in this way , kind of information.

There's a lot of good thoughts out there about what we might try, what might be a good idea, what might work, a lot of subjective assumption if you know what I mean, but I have to believe with all the experience in this forum, most of us have come across something that really moved us ahead in the process, and that's what I am looking for. Something the members here can possibly apply in their own marketing or promotion plan, with at least knowing for someone else it really was productive. If we could stay on that track I think the thread will have a little more value.

I am am kind of dumbfounded at this point that a lot of people have viewed the thread, but so far you, and Jim, were the only other person, other than niteshift and myself to even venture a reply, and I thank you for that. It seems to me either no one in this forum is having any success at all, or the fairly successful people have not gotten out of bed yet....LMHO. I am just kidding, I am sure as folks think about it, it will do better.

Thanks again.

Billy Darnell




#715217 - 04/28/09 01:42 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Jim Offerman]  
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Originally Posted by Jim Offerman
Thanks! I think I've been to that website before, but I dismissed it because of it's last century looks... I suppose a poor looking website doesn't always mean it don't work wink


Hehehe.. you're too funny Jim, and too trendy ! I'm sorry we won't be hearing from you again on this site, now that it's in the next century. frown

Just kidding.... yes, design is important, but what I really need is functionality, then looks second. IAC works for me, it won't work for everyone, but it's user friendly and there's a couple of dollars coming in, rather than going in the opposite direction.

Ok, bright idea No 65475.........

I'm not a blogger, but thought I needed some blog presence, so set up a blog.... http://niteshiftmusic.blogspot.com/

I really don't have the time to write articles, ( I can copy them from previous works ) so thought I would add press releases from fellow muso's , and place their music on the player on the site. ( Have to have an IAC account, but that's free for 2 songs ) Cross promotion and all that. The only proviso's.... broadcast quality, adult comtemporary ( have to stick to genre ) and the artist has to have a photo, album cover or whatever, press release, and is willing to provide a link to a free dowload. ( There has to be a reason to visit ) Updated twice a week. So watta think Jim ? Trendy enough ? grin

PS - I added discrete Adscence so it may make a couple of dollars.

cheers, niteshift

PPS - hey Billy, I've only had a quick look at the site you suggested. Will peruse more and get back.





#715226 - 04/28/09 02:16 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: niteshift]  
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ArtistPreneur Offline
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Great question Billy!

I commend you on your community service. I hope a bunch of folks participate!

From what I learned working at MP3.com and DivX, Inc. most of the content providers trying to rise above the din of the noise running rampant on the Internet rely on networking. Consistent, dedicated networking.

They use every promotional tool at their disposal, using the same identity and the same voice across their network to be exposed to potentially tens of millions of people:
Just Plain Folks
Youtube
Myspace
Facebook
Friendster
Flicr
Digg
Add This
Blogs
Widgets
LinkedIn
Soundclick
garageband

Tila Tequilla, one of the most highly recognized musicians on Myspace uses skin, tatoos and sexual preference, but it suits her.

Last edited by ArtistPreneur; 04/28/09 02:17 PM.
#715238 - 04/28/09 02:32 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: niteshift]  
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No problem niteshift, you actually have brought something to the table that not too many people are aware of, or even think about.

Many very successful people point to their blogs as an intricate part of their marketing and promotion success.

A good blog not only creates an interest, but it also generates traffic. Tie it into an RSS feed and it gets viewed by not just those visiting your site, but the 10's of thousands of people who subscribe to that subject matter through their RSS subscriptions. ( It's a tool that I myself need to better understand )

In saying that I would like to point out to those who might just be getting started that everyone that has experienced any degree of success will tell you, "No one thing is going to put you over the top", it's about doing a lot of little things consistently
well.

Success in this business is not an immediate gratification process, it's a long term investment plan. Know the options, do the research, and take great joy in the little accomplishments along the way.

Speaking of a tool that has helped me make good decisions, you all should check out www.alexa.com. It's a great tool to see if the site your thinking about becoming involved with is worth the time and effort.

Billy Darnell



#715250 - 04/28/09 02:51 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Billy Darnell]  
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Hi Artist,

Thank you, I think in this time of uncertainty, that it's more important than ever to pool our experiences, for as independents, working outside the old box, when one of succeeds, we all succeed.

Good point, I think Networking, in all aspects, is a key player in a good marketing and promotion plan. It's also something few of us are real good at...lol. I believe one of the key issues you pointed out was consistency. Very important in any marketing plan or promotion.

I liked your Tila example, makes a good point about the need to think outside the box sometimes, and how creating an image, or a brand, can play an important part in the success factor of some people.

Thanks again for your input.


#715254 - 04/28/09 02:59 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Billy Darnell]  
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Hey Billy,

Yeah, it's very time consuuming, doing a popular blog, and I really need the time to do music, so that's why I thought about the cross promotional aspect. Pick up other buddies press releases, and free songs also.. people, if they like the genre of music, will come visit, download a free tune twice a week, and also listen to the music on the player while they're there. Yes, RSS feeds are something I need to learn more about. Essentially scatter gun approach, but all tools in the arsenal.

Thanks for the http://www.alexa.com./ link. Very interesting. And I had to laugh, that it came up with http://www.hollywoodreporter.com on it's front page. Our latest press release made it to hollywoodreporter, amongst others, but has now vanished off the radar. Ah, the joys of promotion..... LOL

cheers, niteshift


#715259 - 04/28/09 03:11 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Billy Darnell]  
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Hey niteshift,

In reading your post to Jim about the blog, I noticed you mentioned Adscence as an additional opportunity to make a little cash. I was wondering if you might explain what it is, and how to implement it on your website.

I think it's quite apparent that revenues for the independent artist and songwriter of today will no longer come in gushing overflows, but more so in a trickle down effect, and the more streams that trickle in the better....lol.

Thanks

Billy Darnell

#715262 - 04/28/09 03:20 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Billy Darnell]  
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Thanks again for your input and insight Niteshift.

The link to Alexa can really open your eyes, and be a real important player, when considering who you want to network with.
A lot of sites out there spend thousands of dollars creating hype and we need a way to sift through who is for real, and who is creating an image in hopes of success.

Like I said originally , I have always found if you want to receive , you have to be willing to give.

Already i can see this thread is going to enlighten and help a lot of us as to ways to better market our products and ourselves.

Thank you all for participating. I am sure the contributions you make will eventually lead to your taking something from this that will help you to be more successful also.

Billy Darnell


#715263 - 04/28/09 03:23 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Billy Darnell]  
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niteshift Online content
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Hey Billy,

It's a Google thing, and just puts targeted advertising on your web page. I choose to put it way down, in spare space. I think folks are over getting blasted by the "in your face stuff" when they first log on. I know that you need massive traffic to earn a dollar, but why not ? As long as it's not obtrusive, and doesn't drive folks away, why not ? I don't have the link handy, but I'm sure it's on Google's home page or there abouts.

Little steps, little steps....... smile

cheers, niteshift

#715273 - 04/28/09 03:39 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Billy Darnell]  
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Billy,

Quantcast is a competitor of Alexa an has great demographics for research purposes. For instance, check out the stats on JPF here:
http://www.quantcast.com/jpfolks.com

Don't forget to add Google adsense ads to your site, just one or two, even if your don't want ads, because Google indexes you site based on ads. If you have Google ads, googlebots find you first. It doesn't seem like Google is returning objective search results but they are kind of controlling the game now aren't they?


Last edited by ArtistPreneur; 04/28/09 03:43 PM.
#715274 - 04/28/09 03:40 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: niteshift]  
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Thank you nite. Appreciate that.

Yes, it's all about doing a number of little things consistently well isn't it?

Thanks again for your contribution.

Billy Darnell

#715276 - 04/28/09 03:45 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Billy Darnell]  
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niteshift Online content
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Hey Artist,

Thanks, bookmarked that one as well. Gotta love.....

"This site reaches approximately 7,164 U.S. monthly people. The site attracts a more educated, HH income up to $60k, skewing older, slightly male slanted crowd."

Yep, that's about right.

cheers, niteshift

PS - don't know adout those googlebots, but they're damn accurate. Every add focusing on the one and only article there.

Check ; http://niteshiftmusic.blogspot.com/ LOL grin I gotta stop it !


Last edited by niteshift; 04/28/09 03:49 PM.
#715277 - 04/28/09 03:47 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Billy Darnell]  
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Billy Darnell  Offline
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Thanks AP, another very good tool!

I could tell from many of the debates we have had that you had some insight about the internet business that was valid, but now I am curious. What position did you do hold at MP3.com and Divx? I know it wasn't flunky that's for sure...lol.


Thanks again for the contribution.

Billy Darnell

#715284 - 04/28/09 03:59 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Billy Darnell]  
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Joice Marie Offline
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Joice Marie  Offline
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Hi Billy

I don't have Any music for sale -- so I do not have any proven methods -- But I AM certain that Cross Links Help -- when I started posting here on this site, for instance -- my art site spiked in visitors.....

Add Links and Cross Links to all your pages.

jm


perfection is unattainable, excellence is totally within reach

http://www.youtube.com/joicemarie
http://www.myspace.com/lemonmcfartney
#715288 - 04/28/09 04:05 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Joice Marie]  
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ArtistPreneur Offline
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Don't forget to submit to the more open minded college stations.

Here is the place to get the lists:

http://www.frontiernet.net/~ibs/Stations1.html

#715297 - 04/28/09 04:26 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Joice Marie]  
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Billy Darnell Offline
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Hi Joice !

The importance of having your own website to promote you and/or your services can not be overstated in any promotional effort. Every primary layout for a good business plan I have ever seen, has had having your own website right up in the top 2 or 3 steps.

Linking and cross linking both play major factors in how quickly your site comes up in the search results.

One of the things I learned very quickly when I first started, was that because my site was new, and had very little traffic, and very little history, for Google and the other search engines to process and evaluate, it wouldn't matter if I had the best SEO in the world,I wasn't going to make that top 10 on the first page. It was a problem that only time could fix. However, I discovered a work around.

One of them was cross linking, but cross linking can take shape, and have an effect and cause, in many ways. By signing up on the real popular music sites, when people ran a search for my name, or my genre of music, the really big hitters would come up in relationship to my name. Like " www.SoundClick.com - " Billy Darnell is a singer song writer that has worked many years perfecting...." an excerpt from my bio there. Thus allowing me a presence on the very first page of most searches in relation to my name. It's a little gimmick that can get you a lot of mileage when it comes to exposure.

Thanks for pointing that out Joice.

Billy Darnell

#715299 - 04/28/09 04:34 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Billy Darnell]  
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Billy Darnell Offline
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YES! College stations all have independent programming that allows the insertion of new and interesting music from the independent artist or songwriter. You do have to have a high quality recording, but the opportunities for exposure are endless. Especially if you write or sing a younger type of genre.

A fringe benefit to that exposure is it opens up the door to contacting the regional administrators, and colleges themselves as to getting on their live entertainment, or concert schedule. Almost all colleges have an entertainment committee that has a fund that provides shows as entertainment to the student body, and they are always looking for new talent. Combine that with the fact that they pay very well for that entertainment , and you can make a very nice income, and gain a huge amount of exposure working the college circuit.

Thank you AP.. that was a good one.

Billy Darnell

#715317 - 04/28/09 05:25 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Billy Darnell]  
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Billy Darnell Offline
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Well, so far a very diverse group of topics and a lot of helpful information.Can't ask more than that...lol

#715328 - 04/28/09 06:15 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Billy Darnell]  
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Cool topic, Billy - and some nice ideas here.

In the grand scheme of things, my idea ain't so grand. But it has worked pretty well for me so I'll share it. The idea is very similar to what Tom proposed above.

Some of my songs are niche songs - celebrating or remembering a particular person or day. So my idea is to target people within that niche.

I wrote a baseball song a few years back - and found this huge baseball site on the web called the baseball almanac. They even had a section for songs and poems about baseball. So I contacted the site and asked if they would post a link to my song.

They actually gave it its own full page and put it in a prominent location. I was really pleasantly surprised.

It hasn't had a huge payoff but certainly more than I expected. It has directed a few people to my CDBaby site and to my songs on i-tunes. Only a couple of sales.

And its shown up on a few blogs with very positive comments and other sites have linked to the song. One guy has it listed along with songs by John Fogerty and Bruce Springsteen.

Even a midget baseball web site has a link to it smile

Just little things in the grand scheme of things - but I get a kick out of searching on it now and then to see what's been done with it.

Actually I sent it to the baseball almanac site and didn't hear back. I assumed they got all kinds of requests like that and that they just didn't like the song. A year later, I tried again and was told that it just got buried and that they really liked it. It was posted a few days later.

Clued me in that, until you get a firm "no", persistence is a reasonable thing. smile

So if you have a "niche" song, find that niche on the web and see if you can get some exposure through their site. I think Calvin and Joice did something similar with their Butterfly Garden song.

Scott

Last edited by Scott Campbell; 04/28/09 06:17 PM.
#715334 - 04/28/09 07:00 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Scott Campbell]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Scott,

It has been my experience that when it comes to music, if you have a "blind midget jello wrestling," songs played on cello and basson, you will find some other people that are into some
www.blindmidgetjellowrestlingcellobasoon.com web site.
There is something for everyone. If you have a niche, it usually is about a Google search away. Seek and ye shall find.

MAB

#715343 - 04/28/09 07:24 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Mark Kaufman Offline
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Made me look! bite

#715368 - 04/28/09 08:01 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Scott Campbell Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman
Made me look! bite


LOL - me too grin

Marc had my hopes up there for a sec! grin

Scott

#715369 - 04/28/09 08:02 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Billy Darnell Offline
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Thanks Guys!
looked like sound advice to me and the midgets!! smile



Billy Darnell

#715386 - 04/28/09 09:07 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Billy Darnell]  
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Joe Wrabek (D) Offline
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I had to look, too. Now I'm disappointed.

Some years back, when my daughter was writing a short story for an English assignment, she wanted to mention a Website in the story but wanted to make sure it didn't really exist. She picked the most outrageous thing she could think of-- www.nakedspacecowgirls.com. We googled it. It existed...

Joe

Last edited by Joe Wrabek; 04/28/09 09:09 PM.
#715391 - 04/28/09 09:32 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Joe Wrabek (D)]  
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Billy Darnell Offline
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Hi Marc,

I consider you one of the more successful participants in this forum, and though I know you continually offer advice through out the forum which is very much appreciated, well in most cases anyways, I do believe there might be something you still have to offer of value.

Is there a special Marketing tool or a promotional concept, that you have employed that you find has helped in your success, That you might feel like sharing with the group here?

If nothing more, what do you feel has allowed you to experience the degree of success that you have obtained over the years?

Mr.Kaufman, you have been a member here since 09/07, so you've been at this for quite sometime, surely there must be something you have found over the years that works for you. I would like to hear your insights, and i am sure the rest of these guys would to.

Joe, a member since 11/03? I sure would like to hear what you have learned over the past 5 and a half years as far as promotion and marketing goes anyways.

I sure would appreciate any information you all could give to help some of us. Especially those without the benefit of your years of experience, who might just be getting started.

Thanks guys.

Billy Darnell

#715571 - 04/29/09 12:02 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Billy Darnell]  
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Tom Shea Offline
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Billy, you really the mark when you can that sucess is built on many litle things. Amen. Justice and I are learning that. It is a great thing to keep in mind. f

Tom


Thomas Shea

Thomas Shea - Songwriting
http://www.soundclick.com/thomasshea

Justice - Songs
http://www.soundclick.com/justice-nebraska

#715591 - 04/29/09 01:27 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Tom Shea]  
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niteshift Online content
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niteshift  Online Content
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Fiji
Ok, so I've set up the blog, not looking too bad...

http://niteshiftmusic.blogspot.com/ ( oops, did it again ! grin )

As someone with no training in PR and marketing, I'm still looking for good, cheap, simple, effective ideas....

So, as someone who only releases maybe half a dozen tracks a year, I need blog content to create interest. ( I don't have the time to write articles once a week ) I was thinking of asking for other JPF press releases / music releases, give them a promo, copy and paste, add a photo, and a couple of lines, add links to the artisits "buy" page, but also a link to a free downlaod. Maybe a previous release.

I think cross-promotoion works really well. Kind of like guilt by association. LOL. Those artists could set up a free page at IAC, so their music could be directly streamed in the player. The music I'd be looking for would be similar to what's in the player at present.

Any thoughts ?

cheers, niteshift

#715600 - 04/29/09 01:54 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: niteshift]  
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Billy Darnell Offline
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Hi Tom,

Thank you. One of the biggest downfalls of this immediate gratification generation is we all want it right now, and the music business just doesn't work that way in any way, shape, manner or form. Everything about it seems to be time consuming. It's all about doing a lot of little things consistently over a long period of time. There's just no other way to get from point A to point B. I think niteshift called it small steps and that's about what it takes.


Billy Darnell


#715620 - 04/29/09 02:51 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Billy Darnell]  
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Hi Niteshift,

Checked out the blog, looking pretty good.

I hope there's only 10 songs in that player cause I could only see 9 and a half...lol

I have noticed lately that seems to be a trend, the musicians conglomerating their efforts and resources, thus making it easier for all involved. A shared expense, group effort, everyone contributes, and everyone benefits. I think we will see more and more of that type of thing as individuals begin to understand that the DIY model is almost, I won't even say almost, it is too many hats for one person to wear.

You just can't be everybody, doing everything, and get anything done completely, or efficiently. I don't believe any one person or even a band can stay in that mode for long. Sooner or later your gonna wear yourself out, and find you just can't do it. It's a place to start, but sooner, or later, you realize too many things are hurting.

Even if you had the knowledge in every area you have to have to function properly, it would be a difficult task. I don't know anyone that has that much knowledge or experience in one brain, so then you have to take time to learn what you don't know, and that slows you down , and things fall further behind.

Think of the number of things that have to be done for you to be successful.

Write the material... you have to be a songwriter.... takes months to get done

set it to music.....you have to be a musician...take years to learn

Find other musicians you can afford if you don't have a band...takes a several weeks at least to line everyone up.

Record it ..... you need to know something about recording programs.... take a couple weeks reading the manual, and help sections,to even begin to understand the interface if you have never used a DAW or recording program.

add the effects... you need to know about sound effects, gateways, how to set a phaser, or delay so the timing is right.
Months of reading and learning.

Mix it down...you need to know what sounds right, does everything sit together properly, and how to fix it if it doesn't .... months of reading and learning

Master it... I could count the number of people I know on one hand that actually even understand what that's all about....this can take a couple years to really grasp.

( and well your doing all that you need to start thinking about the CD art work, how you gonna package it? How are you going to produce the CD's, CD burner, or do you need a lot of copies very quickly, and if so, who are you gonna get to do them? What's the cover gonna look like, whats the CD label gonna be like? what color scheme is best? Do you even own a good graphics program like Photoshop or the likes? Do you have any any training in the area of graphic presentation? All the while your making these decisions you have to find out where to procure the products at you need to have to get the job done, you just became the Graphic Artist and the company buyer too!)

The list of jobs is way too long to even post here. You have to build a website, start a Blog, plan a tour, copyright the material, figure out how to distribute the CD, promote it, Market yourself and the CD, do the radio shows, contact the Dj's, be the accountant, answer all the emails, the street team, get posters made, build your fan base on myspace, facebook, twitter, Youtube, oh, and who is doing the video? Do a promo photo shoot, find some wheres to get your fan's products to buy like T-shirts, and the likes, be the manager, and the booking agent.The list is never ending.

Believe me if you try it, it won't take you long to learn why the labels had an army of people to promote just one artist.

The point here is some where along the line you learn it's about more than just you. Your going to have to involve others if you are going to be successful. Make up your mind to that before you burn yourself completely out.

I know I got off the main idea in this thread, but I think it's important before you even start worrying about promotion and marketing, to realize it can be a long haul on the highway to no wheres, prepare for that, involve others you trust, learn to do the research, and delegate accordingly. Take it one small step at a time, and always take time to take gratification in the little accomplishments along the way.

Ok. I'll shut up...lol

Billy Darnell

#715623 - 04/29/09 03:11 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Billy Darnell]  
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niteshift Online content
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Fiji
Hey Billy,

Um....yep..... that's about it. You've done a quick synopsis of what I think for any single that I do from whoa to go. LOL

It takes a lot of learning and a lot of years.

I'm fine with the whole production thing, musically and technically, but that's only half the job. The other half is PR and marketing. I don't wish to learn it, just have an overview, so when I employ others to do it, I have a basic idea. ( and won't get ripped off )

In the meantime, it's onto idea No 239845..... grin

Ah, there's some real PR pros out there having a good laugh at the moment, but hey, out of the the mouths of babes..... smile

cheers mate, niteshift

PS - not much input here. Can anyone just put up a simple and effective idea ? Not a biggie. Just another tool in the toolbox would help.




#715624 - 04/29/09 03:29 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: niteshift]  
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Billy Darnell Offline
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LOL your right about the input thing bud.

I really thought when I opened this thread the contributions would be endless, and it would be a great resource for all of us to learn from. I guess maybe I over estimated either the willingness of others to share their experiences, or maybe the amount of success, or experience, anyone here really has had.

Obvious your a mover and a shaker though, I appreciated your insight, and I am sure the others did too.

Billy Darnell


#715633 - 04/29/09 04:48 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Billy Darnell]  
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Joe Wrabek (D) Offline
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Okay, I'll throw out one idea. Don't know if it's helpful or not.

Want publicity? Associate yourself/your band with a Good Cause. Our band is doing a benefit concert for the local food bank--been about a month and a half in preparation (the show is Saturday night). No money in it for us--no money in it for anybody--but the publicity opportunities have been great.

The posters (which I designed--I used to be in the graphic-design business) are up everywhere--nobody's refused one, everyone wants one in their window. People who normally wouldn't come to see us at the local tavern are coming to this thing, and bringing their friends. We may be able to get the concert on local cable TV (we'll be videotaping it).

So the Cause is drawing in a whole bunch of new people we have the opportunity to turn into fans. We'll get 'em signed up for the mailing list, and see how many come to our next not-for-the Cause performance. We'll also see how many of those businesses that put "Failed Economy Show" posters in their windows will put up posters for our next concert. Could be a bunch of 'em.

And yes, I have mentioned (when I've had the opportunity) that there's a mercenary aspect to all this Cause promotion, that I know it's promotion for the band, and for my songs, that I hope will turn into business later. (I believe in being honest about it.) People don't seem to mind. We will end up being identified as "The Guys Who Did That Show for the Food Bank." And it won't bother me one bit.

Joe

#715648 - 04/29/09 05:37 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Joe Wrabek (D)]  
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PopTodd Offline
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PopTodd  Offline
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I've been extolling the virtues of IAC for several years now. Glad to have someone else back me up on that one.

It has earned me quite a few fans -- all over the world. And, I've sold a few CDs and picked up a couple of shekels from the pay-for-play feature, too.

Of course, When I requested my check they have been VERY slow in actually getting it to me. I'm still waiting for some $30, several months after my initial request for funds. They claim that they are still working on their payout system (obviously) and should have it cleaned up soon.

I sure hope so, because it's pretty frustrating.

Such SNAFUs aside, when (and if) they get the system ironed out, it's a pretty great deal.

#715656 - 04/29/09 05:56 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Joe Wrabek (D)]  
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Billy Darnell Offline
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Hi Joe,

Excellent point! I hope the show goes really well for you.

I think that in today's environment the hardest thing to accept is that in order to get our music heard sometimes we have to give it away. That seems so abstract when we think of all the work we put into it, the hours of time it took to put it all together, but what good is it if no one ever hears it? In order for people to like it , they have to hear it, and that doesn't only apply to the band, it applies to your CD, or your single as well.

You start out by giving away as many copies as people will accept, and then just like a good drug pusher, when ya got them hooked, the price goes up! ( lol, I know that's maybe not be the nicest comparison, but that's what it always reminds me of )

I once met a songwriter that refused to do songwriter nights, or play his songs in public, because he felt the other writers, or someone in the audience, was going to steal his songs. The last time I heard from him years later he was still complaining about how he couldn't get anyone in the business to listen to them. Only one guy he had talked to even offered to listen, but he wanted him to send three songs in on a CD, and he wasn't going to do that because the guy might copy them, or steal his hooks and give his ideas to some other songwriter. I doubt anyone will ever hear anything the guy has wrote, so what was the sense of writing them at all?

Sometimes you have to be willing to give...to get.

Billy Darnell

#715658 - 04/29/09 06:04 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Billy Darnell]  
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Thank you Pop good to have another insight into IAC.

I wonder if your the only one having that issue ?

niteshift? What about it? You ever actually get a check from IAC?

There are a lot of good sites out there to place music on, but do the research and use alexa or quantcast to see if they have the kind of traffic you need to get real exposure opportunities because that's all you will get from most of them. They are not a vehicle to produce any quantity of sales, and normally I would say because of that, stay away from those that want you to pay, unless you know for sure from others that what you spend your going to get back.

Billy Darnell

#715659 - 04/29/09 06:06 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Billy Darnell]  
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Originally Posted by Billy Darnell

I really thought when I opened this thread the contributions would be endless, and it would be a great resource for all of us to learn from. I guess maybe I over estimated either the willingness of others to share their experiences, or maybe the amount of success, or experience, anyone here really has had.


I think some of the people here are looking for the answer and do not have much success to report. I have a lot under way on the web, etc. but so far not much to show for it.


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


#715663 - 04/29/09 06:22 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Colin Ward]  
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I think your right Colin, and you know what? It isn't surprising in this day and age those people are in the majority. I think no matter how far some of us have gotten, we too, are looking for a better more productive way.

I also think a lot of people have spent a massive amount of time and quite a few dollars learning what they have that has allowed them to get this far, and they aren't real willing to make it easier for someone else, and that's a mistake in my book. If we all keep whatever we have learned to ourselves we will never get much further than we already have, but if we share that knowledge freely, we all get wiser and better together.

The best way to overcome the obstacles we all face is for us all to gather our accumulative knowledge, and use that to come up with answers.


Maybe I am a little naive but that's my take on it.

Billy Darnell

#715708 - 04/29/09 08:38 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Billy Darnell]  
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ArtistPreneur Offline
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Billy,

"That's my take on it...?" That's Brian's line, you thief! ;-)

Regarding your comments about promoting your music by giving it away for free, I have one more tidbit to offer. I was doing some research on FCC Title 47 CFR Part 15 regarding low power AM Stations (LPAM) http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-mcafee&p=fcc%20part%2015&type= and discovered that there are literally thousands of community based low power AM and FM stations operating around the country and oversees and they are streaming!

They're also called micro broadcasters because at the frequency at which they broadcast at there is no FCC license required and the PROs don't pay attention to them, so your music is played next to the bigs.

The radio industry calls them Pirate Radio but if they are broadcasting in compliance with FCC there is nothing Pirate about them except for the fact that they are pirating away attention from big broadcasters.

If you can't pay your way to radio the next best way to get radio's attention is to compete with them and the bigs are looking.

There are several sites with station lists, here just one: http://www.part15.us/stationlistings

#715720 - 04/29/09 09:11 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: ArtistPreneur]  
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Joe Wrabek (D) Offline
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Art, I have done that, and within its limitations it does work. I don't think of them as "pirate" radio stations, though; just because Clear Channel doesn't own it does not mean it's illegal.

One of the radio stations that is playing my stuff is a little independent down in Ashland, Oregon. Small enough so they've still got DJs, and the DJs still control their own playlists. They broadcast, but not over a wide range--but they stream, and that's how I pick up their stuff from 300 miles away. (It's also how I picked up their stuff when I lived *ten* miles away. They are small.)

And that's the big headache in dealing with radio today. The ones that still control their playlists are all small, so you the promoter-artist have a longer row to hoe to get attention.

I might mention also that the main reason that radio station is playing my stuff is I know personally two of the DJs. I'm not sure I could have gotten airplay without that. So the row looks a little longer, don't it?

Joe

#715725 - 04/29/09 09:20 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Joe Wrabek (D)]  
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Steve P. Offline
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Posts: 481
Almost Canada, Washington
I have had marginal exposure with a company called AirPlay Direct (www.airplaydirect.com). They offer free downloads (broadcast quality .WAV files) to any STATION that is registered with them. So far, the STATIONS that have downloaded my tracks are small, rural community radio in Eastern Australia, and Spain. They also let a guy in Calgary, AB, Canada grab my tracks, for his internet (live365) station.

The problem that I have is when the stations don't give a crap about sharing the artist info with their listeners. This Calgary station (if you even want to call them a station) simply gobbled up a bunch of free music to play, IMHO.




Steve

Steve@pongamoosic.com

My solo works:
http://www.wacbiz.com/Steve-Petitt/artist/536

My Pongamoosic...Moosic \:\)
http://www.pongamoosic.com

Voice Over samples:
http://1122creations.yolasite.com
#715779 - 04/29/09 11:33 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Steve P.]  
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 154
Billy Darnell Offline
Serious Contributor
Billy Darnell  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 154
Lebanon, TN
Hi Guys,

First let me say thank you on behalf of those that are watching this thread, and myself, for your contributions.

I can always count on AP to contribute something of value... Sorry Brian...I didn't realize that was your trademark...honest!...lol.

Hmmmmmmmmmm....How did I miss that one AP? Great information for those who want to get heard just from the facet of building a fan base, and in saying that, it reminds me of what old blue eyes, Frank Sinatra, used to say. He once said " The Cream Will always rise to the top, no matter how you tip the bottle ", I believe that's true, I also believe before that can happen you have to get the milk out of the cow, and into the bottle.

My point in saying that is, maybe they are mostly local small market stations, and they might not pay royalties, but once again, before people can decide about you as a song writer, or an Artist, they have to hear you. Heck, I would stand on the corner of 16th and Demonbreum, which is in the music row area of town here in Nashville, if had a great song, and sing it to passing by traffic, and I am relatively sure I wouldn't get any royalties from that either, but someone might hear me that could do something for me, and that's the point folks.

If your just starting out that's key in getting to the next level. You can be the greatest singer, or the most prolific songwriter, but if no one ever hears you, it's wasted talent.

You know Ap, you make me wonder sometimes just what your up to...lol. Knowing who you worked for before, and seeing some of the things you research, just make me wonder.

Joe, you think that arena is a long row to hoe? Try Music row...lol

Steve P. I am familiar with Artist Direct, use it myself. I might mention they have scarfed up some pretty big names recently with exclusive deals to digitally distribute singles for them. I believe they are a company headed in the right direction that's for sure. Thank you for your input about that. Appreciate it.

Billy Darnell


#715788 - 04/29/09 11:56 PM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Billy Darnell]  
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,403
Joe Wrabek (D) Offline
Top 40 Poster
Joe Wrabek (D)  Offline
Top 40 Poster

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,403
Garibaldi, OR USA
Billy, I have been to Music Row. Twice. Visited the BMI Temple, and the ASCAP Palace, and wandered the streets a while, yada yada. I'm sure I'll go again, but I think I'm done banging on their doors. Nobody answers--or appears to want to.

The difference between hitting all those little radio stations with homegrown DJs and hitting Music Row is the radio stations may be not playing my stuff because they haven't heard of it or me. Music Row I don't think *wants* to. (There I go being curmudgeonly again. Sorry.) I'll do the little radio stations because I feel I have a chance.

Still, it makes me nostalgic for the good old days, when I could just go out on the road with cases of the latest Dodson Drifters 45 in the back seat, hit every country radio station in two states, talk to the DJs, and leave being pretty sure that record was going to be played--maybe a lot--on the air. Half the time, I'd get an interview out of it, too. These days, most of those radio stations don't have DJs, and are being beamed Top 20 playlists from the planet Jupiter. Very Invasion of the Body Snatchers stuff. Makes me sad.

Joe

#715797 - 04/30/09 12:17 AM Re: What has worked for you? [Re: Joe Wrabek (D)]  
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 154
Billy Darnell Offline
Serious Contributor
Billy Darnell  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 154
Lebanon, TN
Cant say I disagree Joe...your right...but I am afraid we have to realize those days are forever gone...whether we like it or not.

Take some satisfaction in knowing that that "closed door", "we really don't care", and "we don't need you", kind of attitude has led us down the road we are now on, and has led to, what will in the near future, eventually be the downfall of the stuffed shirts of the old industry here. I don't feel sorry for anyone involved in it. They created a monster by trying to control every facet of the industry, and made the bed they are now lying in.

With that being said I admire the fact that you could have just quit, and I know that feeling too, but you made a decision to adjust, and move on, and that in itself is commendable. I don't know, sometimes I think I am just too stubborn to give it up, but I still feel I have something to offer, and more than that, I love what I do, so I keep on keeping on.

Hang in there bud, lightening strikes in strange places, and as long as we still have a dream, life is worth living.

Billy Darnell

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