Who's Online Now
10 members (Fdemetrio, VNORTH2, Gary E. Andrews, Perry Neal Crawford, couchgrouch, Sunset Poet, Guy E. Trepanier, bennash, Bill Draper, David Gill), 4,088 guests, and 270 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Register Today!
Welcome to the Just Plain Folks forums! You are currently viewing our forums as a Guest which gives you limited access to most of our discussions and to other features.

By joining our free community you will have access to post and respond to topics, communicate privately with our users (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free; so please join our community today!
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
What's Going On
Does Billy Joel belong in top 10?
by Fdemetrio - 03/28/24 11:10 PM
It Is Done
by Sunset Poet - 03/28/24 07:44 PM
Music Industry Summit, Athens Ohio
by Gary E. Andrews - 03/28/24 06:14 PM
Can you save me from me
by VNORTH2 - 03/28/24 03:11 PM
As human as yo
by ckiphen - 03/28/24 09:55 AM
Fox News Reports Stunning Archeological Discovery.
by couchgrouch - 03/27/24 08:02 PM
Wasting My Time
by David Gill - 03/27/24 07:42 AM
Song available
by JAPOV - 03/26/24 03:38 PM
YELLIN AT CLOUDS
by David Gill - 03/26/24 03:20 PM
"Reliving" the great Lou Rawls!
by Brian Austin Whitney - 03/26/24 01:49 PM
::: The Best In My Life :::
by Bill Draper - 03/26/24 01:32 PM
The show must go on
by ckiphen - 03/26/24 09:06 AM
NYC Motel 1972
by rpirone - 03/26/24 12:43 AM
usic Industry Summitt
by Gary E. Andrews - 03/25/24 11:32 PM
The Rant Arena
by JAPOV - 03/25/24 07:39 PM
Song available
by Raymond Byabazaire - 03/25/24 11:55 AM
Song available
by Raymond Byabazaire - 03/25/24 11:55 AM
Lancaster Festival, Lancaster, Ohio
by Gary E. Andrews - 03/25/24 10:51 AM
Wasting my time
by Rob B. - 03/25/24 03:45 AM
Tom Waits.. What's he building
by Fdemetrio - 03/25/24 12:09 AM
Rick Beato, bad lyrics
by Fdemetrio - 03/24/24 11:23 PM
Inspirational Videos Post Them Here
by Sunset Poet - 03/24/24 11:27 AM
Used to take a Genius to Mix
by Fdemetrio - 03/23/24 11:00 AM
She’s missing but she ain’t missing him
by ckiphen - 03/23/24 08:44 AM
"Broken Places"
by Gary E. Andrews - 03/22/24 07:45 PM
All You Are Is A Lie
by Sunset Poet - 03/22/24 06:55 PM
Pour Choices
by Gavin Sinclair - 03/22/24 05:29 PM
Billy's 30 year overdue song.
by Fdemetrio - 03/22/24 01:30 PM
Make my dreams come true
by ckiphen - 03/22/24 10:51 AM
Top Posters
Calvin 19,857
Travis david 12,264
Kevin Emmrich 10,941
Jean Bullock 10,330
Kaley Willow 10,240
Two Singers 9,649
Joice Marie 9,186
Mackie H. 9,003
glynda 8,683
Mike Dunbar 8,574
Tricia Baker 8,318
couchgrouch 8,160
Colin Ward 7,911
Corey 7,357
Vicarn 6,916
Mark Kaufman 6,589
ben willis 6,114
Lynn Orloff 5,788
Louis 5,725
Linda Sings 5,608
KimberlyinNC 5,210
Fdemetrio 4,990
Neil Cotton 4,909
Derek Hines 4,893
DonnaMarilyn 4,670
Blake Hill 4,528
Bob Cushing 4,389
Roy Cooper 4,271
Bill Osofsky 4,199
Tom Shea 4,195
Cindy Miller 4,178
TamsNumber4 4,171
MFB III 4,143
Sunset Poet 4,126
nightengale 4,096
E Swartz 3,985
JAPOV 3,973
beechnut79 3,878
Caroline 3,865
Kolstad 3,845
Dan Sullivan 3,710
Dottie 3,427
joewatt 3,411
Bill Cooper 3,279
John Hoffman 3,199
Skip Johnson 3,027
Pam Hurley 3,007
Terry G 3,005
Nigel Quin 2,891
PopTodd 2,890
Harriet Ames 2,870
MidniteBob 2,761
Nelson 2,616
Tom Tracy 2,558
Jerry Jakala 2,524
Al Alvarez 2,499
Eric Thome 2,448
Hummingbird 2,401
Stan Loh 2,263
Sam Wilson 2,246
Wendy D 2,235
Judy Hollier 2,232
Erica Ellis 2,202
maccharles 2,134
TrumanCoyote 2,096
Marty Helly 2,041
DukeWill 2,002
floyd jane 1,985
Clint Anglin 1,904
cindyrella 1,888
David Wright 1,866
Clairejeanne 1,851
Cindy LaRosa 1,824
Ronald Boyt 1,675
Iggy 1,652
Noel Downs 1,633
Rick Heenan 1,608
Cal 1,574
GocartMoz 1,559
Jack Swain 1,554
Pete Larsen 1,537
Ann Tygart 1,529
Tom Breshers 1,487
RogerS 1,481
Tom Franz 1,473
Chuck Crowe 1,441
Ralph Blight 1,440
Rick Norton 1,429
Kenneth Cade 1,429
bholt 1,411
Letha Allen 1,409
in2piano 1,404
Stan Simons 1,402
Deej56 1,385
mattbanx 1,384
Jen Shaner 1,373
Charlie Wong 1,347
KevinP 1,324
Vondelle 1,316
Tom W. 1,313
Jan Petter 1,301
scottandrew 1,294
lane1777 1,280
Gerry 1,280
DakLander 1,265
IronKnee 1,262
PeteG 1,242
Ian Ferrin 1,235
Glen King 1,214
VNORTH2 1,212
IdeaGuy 1,209
AaronAuthier 1,177
summeoyo 1,174
Diane Ewing 1,162
ckiphen 1,120
joro 1,082
BobbyJoe 1,075
S.DEE 1,040
yann 1,037
9ne 1,035
David Gill 1,032
Tony A 1,016
argo 986
peaden 984
90 dB 964
Wolvman 960
Jak Kelly 912
krtinberg 890
Drifter 886
Petra 883
RJC 845
Brenda152 840
Nadia 829
ant 798
Juan 797
TKO 784
Dayson 781
frahmes 781
bennash 763
teletwang 762
Andy K 750
Andy Kemp 749
tbryson 737
Jackie444 731
Irwin 720
3daveyO3 704
Dixie 701
Joy Boy 695
Pat Hardy 692
Knute 686
Lee Arten 678
Moosesong 668
Katziis 652
R.T.MOORE 638
quality 637
CG King 622
douglas 621
R&M 614
Mel 614
NaomiSue 601
Shandy 590
Ria 587
TAMERA64 583
qbaum 570
nitepiano 566
pRISCILLA 556
Tink2 553
musica 539
deanbell 528
RobertK 527
BonzaiWag 523
Roderic 522
BB Wilbur 513
goodfolks 499
Zeek 487
Stu 486
Steve P. 481
KathyW 462
allenb 459
MaxG 458
Philjo 454
fanito 448
trush48 448
dmk 442
Rob L 439
arealrush 437
DGR 436
avweek 435
Stephen D 433
Emmy 431
marquez 422
kit 419
Softkrome 417
kyrksongs 415
RRon 408
Laura G. 407
VNORTH 407
Debra 407
eb 406
cuebald 399
EdPerrone 399
Dannyk1 395
Hobart 395
Davyboy49 393
Smile 389
GJShades 387
Alek 386
Ezt 384
tone 380
Marla 380
Ann_F 379
iggyiggy 378
coalminer 377
java 374
ddreuter 371
spidey 371
sweetsong 370
danny 367
Rob B. 364
Jim Ryan 360
papaG 353
Z - man 350
JamesDF5 348
John K 348
Jaden 344
TheBaz 340
Steggy 339
leif 339
tonedeaf 336
rickwork 334
Eddie Ray 332
Johnboy 328
Bob Lever 328
Helicon1 327
lucian 326
Muskie 321
kc 319
Z. Mulls 318
ptondreau 313
ONOFFON 312
Chris B. 310
trush 304
ed323 297
Ellen M 294
markus-ky 293
lizzorn 291
nicnac49 290
Char 286
ktunes 285
Top Likes Received
JAPOV 86
VNORTH2 45
bennash 38
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 382
S
Serious Contributor
Offline
Serious Contributor
S
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 382
Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Stevens,

I'm sorry to argue with you, but no you can't.


Maybe others can't...but I can.

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,878
Likes: 2
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,878
Likes: 2
Do people really need pluggers to pitch their songs? Do some writers more or less self-pitch? To do the latter would probably require the time and money to go to a lot of concerts and hobnob with the musicians between sets or after show. Sounds as if this would take less money than what some pluggers charge. Wonder if some don't work on contingency, where they get paid only once the songs are cut.

Have often wondered how people on shoestring budgets get started. I recall hearing the story of J P Rowling, who had absolutely nothing when she began writing the Harry Potter series, and now she's worth millions. Could the principles that apply to literature also apply to music? I certainly don't have $2500 to spend on a plugger.

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,697
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,697
Start small according to your own budget...use every single outlet that you can and pitch through SongU membership, by using the open admission publisher's in Songmarket Editions(new edition each year) anyway that you possibly can and of course getting it straight to an up and coming Indie artist is a good way as well..

Brian....answer my pm...ok(see my message r.e. pm's on

Jan the general message board)

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 113
Serious Contributor
Offline
Serious Contributor
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 113
So true, my friend, Marc...

But, as you well know, the only pluggers in Nashville that create real activity are the people who have cultivated relationships of trust and integrity with executives, managers, artists and producers. They can be relied on to consistently bring a select few truly competitive songs every time. They are likable (though persistent), considerate and professional.

There is this notion within the songwriting community that the best song will always win. As you and I well know, that assumption is very naive. Although it's crucial to a writer's success to develop song-craft to the highest level, it's relationships that create opportunities for those great songs to thrive in the marketplace.

So here's my "seasoned" advice:

When a writer is considering hiring a plugger -- look at who that person has access to, who that person can get meetings with on a regular basis. There is absolutely nothing wrong with song plugging or in paying somebody to rep your songs -- as long as (a) it's a person of integrity who is willing to report thoroughly on every pitch; (b) it's somebody who is connected; and (c) most importantly, that the writer doesn't actually expect overnight success. Even the best songs by the most successful writers sometimes take years of consistent pitching to find the right artist and the right circumstances to thrive.

If a writer hasn't developed the relationships that will create success, a well-connected plugger can help build the writer's reputation by touting his or her songs and name. But, the writer can do much more for him- or herself by being present, making friends, engendering trust creatively and by being good, pleasant person to work and hang with.

As I often say, becoming a successful songwriter is not "five minute abs," it's a lifetime commitment with no guarantee of return for your efforts. If you're in it to have number one songs, you're going to spend most of your time disappointed. If you write because you love to write and you want to improve every day, you'll find fulfillment in that. And that is the only part of this crazy process any of us has much control over.

Rand Bishop
songwriter/producer/author - Makin' Stuff Up, secrets of song-craft and survival in the music-biz
www.makinstuffup.net


Rand Bishop
Songwriter/producer/author
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 587
Likes: 1
Top 500 Poster
Offline
Top 500 Poster
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 587
Likes: 1
Nice summation Rand, and very very true.

Marvin

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Stevens,

A lot of people have taken that attitude. That is where they end up as ghermers. If you take the time, meet people as people, do the same things everyone else has to do, develop them over time, a little at a time, earn trust and friendship, sure you can. That is the point. Or if you get cuts and hits, you are in good shape. Everybody comes to you.
But it is like " how can you get a job without experience, how do you get experience, without a job?" "How do you get cuts without connections, how do you get connections without the cuts?"
You might have some new, undiscovered method that I have never heard of. Could be the one that breaks through. I have only been here 21 years and known people that were here long before that and everyone I have ever known, has co-written and worked with a lot of people, written a TON of songs, and slowly but surely worked their way up, pretty much like any business, earning it a little at a time.
Till then, good luck in blazing the trail. I'm sure a lot of people would love to know the person that could do that. Pitch away.

MAB

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,827
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,827
Hey Stevens,

My own opinion is that Mark is correct on this one.

You may think you can, but eveyone but eveyone has an agent to do their bidding for them, and act on their behalf.

If you try to do it yourself, it is percieved as egotistical ( whether it is or not ) and in general gets a zero response. It's a simple fact that human nature does not allow a "look at me" attitude. If you say "look at him/her", it works much better. To do it yourself, it says you don't have a team of people with you, and on your side, who, by fair means or foul, are there with you to get things done to a mutual conclusion.

Example ; I'm currently promoting a co-written single, but that promotion is focused on the artist. In that way, folks are a lot more aproachable. If I were to say "hey, listen to my new co-written song", I wouldn't be given the time of day.

You may think you can walk into a room and say "look at me", but I can honestly say I've never seen it happen. Quite frankly, that would just be damn embarrasing, let alone not too businees like.

cheers, niteshift


Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 301
Serious Contributor
OP Offline
Serious Contributor
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 301
Nite,

Right on. Imagine some plugger coming up to you and saying, "Hey, I think I'll take up songwriting! How long do you think it will take me to write a song that's good enough to pitch to Faith Hill?" You'd probably roll your eyes much like he/she would if you told him/her that you were going to take up song plugging. Not that it wouldn't be possible, but it sure wouldn't happen overnight. For us it's all the years spent learning the craft. For them its all the years spent developing the relationships in the industry.

That some songwriters believe the best way to pitch songs is by hanging out at concerts suggests to me that maybe songwriters should stick to songwriting and let song pluggers handle the plugging. I say that with all due respect.

It's always easier for me to believe that I can do it all than it actually is.


bill
www.writethismusic.com

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Bill,

I thought that was pretty funny too. And there are a lot of people who try to do the backstage hang after the shows. Usually they are Blonde with big boobs, but somehow I don't think they are too productive as song pluggers.
There is always a "Don't try this at home" effect with people who have not been around it much. It looks deceptively easy. You are in a town where pretty much everybody knows everybody. You are thrown into contact with them all the time. Shows, showcases, resturants, bars, benefits, special events. There they all are, just go up, say hey, and hand em your CD, and say "Hey, got your next hit there, give me a call when you have my check."
Usually this goes on until they either do it or witness a "Full contact gherming." The artificial handshake of the ghermer, the look when the eyes roll upward of the ghermee,
the total freak out of the person who invited the ghermee, the security guards coming to visit the ghermer, the look in their eyes as they are escorted to the door, the laughter after they leave the establishment, the ensuing months and years, that their reputation is damaged and they continue to run into people and hear, "Oh yeah, your the one the use as the example of what not to do in the songwriting workshops. Hey, you are famous. Hang on...Security!" While not always so obvious, things like that do exist.

A couple of years ago, I was working NSAI's symposium. My role is usually a moderator on panels, a critiquer, and mentor with various groups. Then, as they do the judging on the song contest, I would do a twenty minute talk about etticate, mostly gherming. This is after they have had everyone else talking about it. Hit song plugger Sherril Blackman, hit writers Jerry Vandiver, and Tim Buppert actually have a short play all about it. So this Saturday, the 600 people had recieved a lot of lessons.

I finished my stuff, the judges made their decisions and everyone was filing out. As I walked by the crowd, shaking hands and hugging women, I came face to face with one of the top ten finalists. He shakes my hand, tells me how much he appreciated my talk, and hands me his CD! The exact thing we had just spent the entire day talking about.

It can be very difficult to understand,which is why it is better to hash these things out here as opposed to damaging a career you didn't even know was in danger.
And that is the real effect. In a town as small as this, you can end up cutting your own throat and not even knowing you have a knife in your hand.
There are always people who feel they can buck the trend. And I am sure that people get through the gauntlet. But they don't do it often. And it is so much more pleasant an experience if people just observed a few common courtesys'.

MAB

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 301
Serious Contributor
OP Offline
Serious Contributor
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 301
Marc,

That's hilarious. Proves my believe that most people think the rate limiting factor in this town is not being able to get stuff in the hands of the right people. ANYONE can get their stuff in the hands of the right people in this town. The problems arise when the 'stuff' isn't ready to be put in the right hands.

bill
www.writethismusic.com

Page 2 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Support Just Plain Folks

We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.


Newest Members
chriscastle, yasir252, cathennashira, Samwise, HappySousa
21,470 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums117
Topics125,717
Posts1,160,950
Members21,470
Most Online37,523
Jan 25th, 2020
Just Plain Quotes
"If one man can do it, any man can do it. It is true. But the real question is, if one man did it, are you willing to do what it takes to do it as well?" –Brian Austin Whitney
Today's Birthdays
warriorgirl (2024)
Popular Topics(Views)
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5