Well with all the CD's and even Vinyl I have been credited on either playing, writing, recording or producing. Believe it or not I have NEVER had a CD pressed & dressed
from Disc Makers or anywhere else of my own. I record them mix & master them for others and then Disc Makers does the pressing & packaging.

It has been suggested and requested of me to do so many times in the past.
It never seemed to make any sense for me to do it. Now it seems to make no sense not to.

I basically have two choices/plans and my question is :

Do a shorter run of CD's with less packaging expenses not as fancy a disc, with my instrumental only music? Since I can't afford to do the bigger package.

Then if I sell some of those I could possibly use that to invest in my bigger packaged CD with the wide range & variety of vocal songs.

Is that a good plan? What do you think?

Sounds like a great plan Mike! I'd buy one!

Couple of ideas:
- do a digital release first; you can do that for free on www.bandcamp.com
- work with pre-paid pre-orders; once you've sold enough, press the CD and ship it

If you need some help with this, you know where to find me!

Go Mike!

>What he said.

this is what I am doing my sub friend ! ! NO physical CD, unless they want one. It's almost done now
http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthr...s&topic=0&Search=true#Post690911

I would pick the very best 10-11 songs you have, vocal, instrumental, what-not and create a CD. Going digital sounds like a plan and when you have enough sales, then press CD's. However, if you are not playing out, are physical CD's really required? -- except for a few at a time for CD-Baby.

Kevin

duplicate post

Mike, I would say the time is now - an overdue. My recommnedation is to do it right - the full boat. You don't strike me as a half-way kind of a guy. Besides the cost difference is not that great. Get a thousand cd's with a four page booklet, and all the bells and whistles from Disc Makers, including a graphics designer for about $1,800, including shipping.

Mike, you are worth it.....

Tom

Mike, I would say you should definitely go ahead and make your own album of original songs written by you, performed by you as the artist. I.E. Not songs to be pitched to publishers or for film music - you may want to do that with them after, but you have all the relevant talent to write and record your own album.

I know life isn't a bed of roses for you these days, but from such times can come great songs, authentic songs, songs written from the mature and well rounded perspective that comes with age and life experiences.

I'll be buying the album for sure.

Lucian

If you need some out of the ordinary acoustic finger picking tracks, let me know. Ben

I like the idea of having songs w/your vocals coming out first, then possibly the CD of pure instrumentals second but that's just my preference. Just make sure you include "I'm Like Brooklyn". I wish I knew enough of your songs to suggest which other ones to include but I do know you sell your voice short. Definitely include a slower ballad type on there as well to showcase your voice. I think a Sub CD is long overdue and there's no time like the present. I wish you well my friend!!!

Best of decisions,
Lynn

Hah! I saw the title of this thread in the sidebar and clicked on it - and was totally surprised when it was Sub!

Hey, from an economic view - I don't know whether you should or not. I think you should sell millions. But then I think all kinds of things...

From an artistic point of view, though? Why hell, yeah!

It's long overdue....

Count me as among the first to want one - autographed of course...

Scott

You better autograph mine too!

Where can I pre-order??

..ant

Why just instrumentals?

And I know that in your case, saying "just" was stooopid. But I also think instrumentals don't require segregation. I loved "Frankenstein", but what would that album be without "Free Ride"?

Anyway, count this cheapskate in for a purchase as well.

You can put me on your buying list as well.
Awesome!

Mike, just remembered another couple of website for you to check out. Both www.lulu.com and www.createspace.com have "on demand" CD services. In other words, you can release a CD through their shops without big upfront costs. The lulu.com offering looks best:

http://www.lulu.com/en/products/cd_dvd/?cid=en_product_portal

Also, don't spend money on a graphics designer and just let me do that for you!

Heya Sub, about time!!

I'll admit I'm partial to vocals/lyrics, so I'd also vote to not do just instrumentals...& would also second, or third or whatever, the Digital Route due to financial considerations.

Either way...GIVE US SOMETHING....PLEASE

Midnite

Hi Mike

YIPEE, YIPEE, YIPEE, please can I purchase your CD with your signature.

ABOUT TIME!

Aussie fan

Michele

Mike,

Here is one more company to look at for short-run cd's: http://www.kunaki.com

I haven't used them, but I have google'd the company and customers seem to be very happy. It might be a good way to go until you are ready for a larger pressing from Disc Makers.

HI Mike, & Congrats on doin' Your Sampler CD, Amigo. Pick your 10-14 Alltime "Best" (Whether Instrumental or w/Vox) & then guesstimate how many CDs ya need...to get things Started-Off.

I've found 100 to be quite adequate/CAN always make More, IF the demand's there.

I've found a Good Graphics Pro to be Worth his Weight in Gold. Ugly Cover=off to a Bad Start. I've used Leigh Bohne@BohneGrafx.com for 8 in-a-row...I supply pics & copy/he does the rest, $100-150 a Project. Results: <www.CDBaby.com/TampaStan>

CDBaby's worth their $35...& the $20 for a Barcode IF you're gonna enter the usual Retail Ratrace somewhere. Think ya need the Barcode to help get Airplay, as-well. Their Digital Distribution (Included) is where I make most of my Music Income.

Small Run CD Duplicating I get done at www.progresivecds.com. Ken Veenstra's the chief honcho...I've recorded with Kenny allaways back to 1983..he knows his stuff. U Supply the Inserts, he does 1K CDs in Jewel Boxes for $790 ("+ $50 for film output"). I did a run of 100 Picture CDs last project...for $200 + an Art Setup charge..think it was $35. Think it's near Half as expensive without the Pic...but..putting your Mug on a CD gives it that Personal Touch/hadda try it Just Once..heh!

I'm guilty of using Kinko's for Inserts...$1 a shot + lotsa Personal Time snipping out each Insert. But...ya end up around $3.50-per CD plus your Art Costs..& CD Baby's Overhead.

Ken does 1K CDs in "5-inch Full Color Cardboard Jackets" for $980..(Plus an Art Charge)..if you REALLY wanna do "Quantity"..Cheaply.

The trick to All This is to at least Break-Even..& NOT end up with a pile of unsold CDs eatin' up Garage Space. The CDs DO make Great Calling Cards..& Gifts..but hopefully ya DO make considerable denario to help ya get on to The Next Great Project.

Lookin' Forwards to hearing Your Results,
Best Wishes & Good Luck, Amigo,
Stan

Is there a way to pre- order this cd ?
Go for it, Mike !!!!
All the best
Jan Petter

Your vocal songs. Period.

And, only if you include Miracles of You! Will give you reason to nail that down. YOUR vocals sound great on it, so whatever you hear that you think or even know could be better,,,,,fagetaboutit! Be you! It's better than I and many can do, so let it fly!

You know how powerful that song is,,,,and besides,,,,,I want to be able to say I'm on Mike Caro's album! Would be an honor and a kick ass ego trip!

YES! Do an album...Don't have to do the CD all the way, unless you feel a need to do it that way,,,,to have a tangible product to go up on your "wall of was". That would then make it a partial wall of IS!

I will be available to help in any way, (from coffee to pizza to ears, (since my ears have been cleared of damage,,,,its just something damage in my brain! No news there!!!),,, to hands on anything,,,(moving dials and such as told, while you're doing whatever it is that you do)!

Or just to be there as company.

Best wishes on this long awaited album of yours. You did and do a lot for others. Do this for your pride and legacy, if nothing else. Get em down on one or two albums! For sure!

The toughest part will be in what song order to have them! Neil and I will of course give opinions if wanted.

John

Mike, I agree that you should do vocals. You have a great voice.

Tom

Hi & Thanks to all of you for your never ending support and advice.

Jim - So you are saying go completely digital download release or take pre-orders
then wait until there's enough to have the CD's made?

And the - Bandcamp site seems very cool, It's kinda like Soundclick but way more geared towards selling and promoting. Minus that chart ranking contest lol....

To all

I totally understand about the Instrumental CD verses the vocal one...

I always felt that there should be some continuity in an album, not songs sounding the same but at least staying in the same world sought of. By my biggest strength has always been versatility and since I'm a "Songwriter" first and not an Artist I am never trapped into having to be locked into a style/genre. That means songs can jump from one kind to another with various styles & performers.

But still I think about the listener, do I want to jump from Jazz Rock Fusion like
"What U Betta Do" to "I'm Like Brooklyn" on the same CD? And lots of people really like My earlier "Falcaro" music.. songs that were done in the late 80's early 90's on Tape. Do I include some of those? This is also why I feel the need to separate the CD's. I think the best bet would be to leave those out and inject maybe two of the more popular instrumentals into this CD if any at all.....

I could do the instrumental CD run later with a small packaging and lower selling price.

But really My problem is there's no way now or in the near future I can go for
$800 - $1,800 on packaged CD's. It's not "ME" lol it's my situation.
When I was healthy & working I walked into a music store and dropped $5,000 cash on a Saturday afternoon on gear alone. LOts! more!

Download is the way to go. But I'm still old fashioned and believe if you buy something you should be able to touch it with your hands. Besides I like to open it up & read credits,lyrics, foot notes, see pics etc..... Besides as ridiculous as I will feel autographing anything LOL I will as requested write quick notes and sign these discs (as requested lol) for my friends here. How am I gonna do that downloading.

Also on the instrumentals I have like 2 people on two songs as co-write credits, It's all me. On the others I have more official co-writers to figure out how to pay. Obvisiouly they would not see anything until the cost was re-paid.

See I just can't order less copies of the vocal songs & better packaging... then get more later, that would be way to costly. That's why I thought short run (instrumental) first.
But then it may be harder to sell two CD's in a years time with the economy and all.

I constantly get comments on The Brooklyn Song especially from You Tube and still ponder at the fact that there are 2,539,206 people in Brooklyn. I BET at least 10 thousand of them would buy that song. At 99 cents each..
Just because Clive wouldn't take it doesn't mean the people wouldn't...

How do you sell a song from You Tube? Can you post a link there are you allowed to sell form there?

Well even with all my wear & tear physically & musically my heart still wants to do so much more! But my body and a good part of my mind says "That's it! your done"

I read all of your replies & suggestions & I thank and luv you guys!

Congrats on getting back out there Mike.

Brian

Congrats, Mike. DO IT!!!!

I just listened in on your soundclick page. You have beautiful music and lyrics. I wish you much success in everything!

Sounds great that you finally treat yourself like you deserve, and put yourself up front, Mike!

I definitely think you should go with The Brooklyn Song, and make everything evolve around that. You seem to be at home in that genre, as well as rock stuff like the Nowhere Man cover you did for fun. To my ears, that's where you are really smokin'!

Mike,

The CD's at Kunaki are $1.75 apiece, regardless of quantity, including all packaging. No, I'm not affiliated with them, and I definitely would go with Disc Makers for larger quantities, but this seems like a good price to put physical product in people's hands.

Perhaps you could do a small quantity there and market the CD's as a "special limited edition." Then, when you have made a little money, you could invest in the larger run. Of course, I would still do the downloadable thing, too. Just my opinion. That and 5 bucks will still get you a cup of coffee in a few places.

What are ya waitin for funky chicken! You know. You just know! And there's too little time, so get it done, my man. Gotta get up there with John sometime and give you a head check.

JUST DO IT!!!!

PS; You gonna sneak some jazz, rock, funk fusion in there? Hope so.

Mike, you got a plan, you got the talent, you the man - do it and don't wait.

Tom

Hey, just saw this, awesome idea.. so I see you've got about 30 people so far that think it's a great idea, plus me, and I bet everybody would be willing to pre-buy at whatever price you set..So set-up how to pay in advance and you'll raise the capital for "The Project" cause we're all in this together..

Hi Kev

Thanks, I'm looking into it...

At Kunaki 500 CD's at $1.75 a disc it would be $875.00 + ship
At Disc Makers 1,000 Cd's would be $890.00 + ship

Not sure it's a better deal there unless I go under 400 Cd's or something

Actually For shorter runs at Disc Makers it's 300 Cd's at $1.59 each total $477.00
At Kunaki that would cost $525.00

So it looks like Kunaki may be out unless I'm missing something.

Thanks Tom on all the replies...

Sounds great but that package is way out for me now.. like I always say "I used that coupon long ago" lol....

Like when I was selling my 8 track reel to reel for $100 after it cost me $5,000
and my British Analog 24 ch Mixer that was 3 times that price for $750.00 bucks.

This boy has been beaten up too badly to many wars in the music ring

Hi

Actually the quick plan was. 1- The instrumentals would mean "little to no sharing any money with co-writers" The other CD is lots of that.

The instrumental one would be less copies made (lower cost) & cover some of the expense of the other CD...

I'm gonna probably through one instrumental on the vocal CD. It would be the one I get the most feedback on "What U Betta Do"

Thanks bro!

Hi John

One instrumental at least perhaps.... I love instrumental music.
Don't know if I'll finish that song ever.. never mind for this CD. I wish I could though
It's just not right yet, plus I still have to get some else to sing it and they have to KILL it. That may cost me $200 by itself to have done. And that' still no guarantee.

My friend from high school and a short term ex-bandmate dropped by my place
after 20 years. He knew a little about my past but was very surprised at
"The Wall Of Was" He knew about The Daou but not all the other records.

I blew him away by giving him video footage of us on DVD 3 shows and a great 8X10 photo of him from my scrap book. And a re-mastered version of our album together. Then again by playing him something I was working on. He said screw pro-tools and that other place we are coming here!!
But we'll see - Musicians = Unreliable lol....

Yes an order - Well Neil wont really have too much say in that, he'll be happy to have ONE cd finally instead of tons laying in his car lol.. But this whole thing isn't his bag. Getting something back up to Clive is but we have come to realize if we don't turn into hip hop producer/writers overnight we will NEVER have a chance in our lifetime! Not going to happen!
We were VERY close to him between 1984-1987 especially in 1984.
Neil was actually siting in Arista's studio editing our song at his requests and suggestions.

The order and which songs Hmmm?

We'll talk!

Yeah. Actually, I recommend you do Bandcamp (digital) + Lulu.com (on demand CDs). You might make a little less per CD sold, but you also have zero financial risk, 'cause there are no upfront costs.

Besides, CDs are on the way out anyway. At least, that's what everybody's been saying for the last ten years or so...



Bandcamp is awesome! And I don't just say that 'cause I use it. You can stick their player widget everywhere (and sell directly from it) and they are adding cool new services all the time. Latest addition are download codes - cute little cards that you can pass around to give people free downloads!

On selling on YouTube: you can "annotate" videos these days. You could add an annotation that says "buy this song here: <url>" (I think the url can even be made clickable). Also, they are now adding iTunes and Amazon links to videos by major label artists... I suppose it's only a matter of time before we can do that ourselves as well.

Btw: if you need help setting any of this up, just ask!

Psst, Sub, pick up the phone. It's the 21st century calling:-)

I could download 'em onto my iPod, and if i want something tangible, I can print out all the pictures & lyrics from the websites and hang 'em on my wall like the fan-boy I am.

Midnite

A couple of thoughts:

1) a vocal album is going to have a much wider appeal than an instrumental cd - I would bet at least 5x more sales.

2) DiscMakers is exceptionally good to work with. See my thread currently in the JPF General Messages section, describing the process in detail.

Good Luck

Tom

my only thought was that the instrumental one probably won't sell like the vocal one, and then you might get discouraged and not do the vocal one. maybe you are even tricking yourself into having an excuse not to do the vocal one (ha! armchair psychology is free). i'd do the full vocal one, or the one that feels like the full you, and skip the 'testing the waters' one.

This depressed me more than whatever is my brain damage for Tinnitus. Really. Your voice knocks that song out! You want perfection. But your passionate voice comes through in that song like you don't hear, for some reason. Be like if Dylan or Stewart was told they needed to get a professional studio singer to sing the songs they made famous with their own "sound and passion for the song".

You're up against the ropes on this one,,,,,,What are you going to do? If like Ali,,,,take your hits and come back and knock it the Fk out!

If you want some current R&B current Pop, like I said before, I have just "one" waiting for your input. CD's breakfast food.

But Miracles? Too strong of your passionate soul in that melody and started lyrics as to not be completed. Its the beat I hear that could bump that up to Pop. Up to you.

Saddened to hear you say that though. (Not for my input (altogether), but for what I know the song can be). You're in the 14th round. What are going to do in the 15th? Let it lay there? As if all the others are Hip Hop?

Keep it all open. "Anything is possible in a song" (Iggy).

John

Mike,

i'm not kidding about pre-order. might be a way to round up a few bucks ahead of time to cover startup costs. lots of bands are doing this these days.

digital is a great, low cost way to go. also, because it makes it so easy to buy, i imagine it's a good way to gauge interest, especially in individual songs, before you spend big bucks on a CD lot.

on the CD-thing, i recommend you make the best damn CD you can - really your best songs, i expect you'll have both vocals and instrumentals. then use cdbaby and follow Derek's advice. send just 5 CD's initially. my advice: burn them at home, label them and sign them - only go to a production house and spend the $$ when you've sold enough that it's justified to do a quantity buy. if that happens, then the first ones will become collector's items. if it doesn't then the small number of friends and fans who did order will get what they really want - a personally signed CD full of great songs.

either way, as others have, i recommend you go for it. you have a great backlog, i've heard a lot of good one-offs from you that i think would show in an even better light in a well-sequenced album format.

..ant

Mike:

Glad to hear you are considering getting your music "out there" for others to acquire. You, like me... have stated that you have severe budget limitations... and my advice is to take a two-pronged approach.

First, because it is so inexpensive (comparatively)... go for digital only with CDBaby... and put up an album of your best songs or even a combination of songs and melodies. For less than $50 bucks (unless you go wild on the artwork) you can be up and running in no time at all... with minimum investment. You could also consider doing both for about the same price initially plus the expense of creating a stock of maybe 20 CD's and then take a wait and see approach. Discuss it with the good people at CDBaby and see what they can do for you. I think Brian may be able to wangle a discount for you because of your JPF status.

If sales begin to overwhelm you, then CDBaby can kick things into high gear for a guy like you (with a fairly huge fan-base) and begin to duplicate your album through their sister company, DiscMakers to minimize the impact on your budget and your time.

The logistics of rolling out an album and pre-pressing 1000 or more CDs without knowing how your roll-out will be received is a gamble. Take a slow and steady approach at the start... you can always bring in more monetary resources downstream... when you know the demand. I would advise against using the instrumental approach for the kick-off album... but what do I know?

Regardless, I wish you every success... no matter which path you take. You have always been so generous with your time and opinions here at JPF... and we appreciate you so very much.

Best,

Dave

http://www.showcaseyourmusic.com/DaveRice

Mike,

To accomodate the different tastes of your audience and to make it make sense for you, I would suggest putting together your "CD" project in the sense of "Generations & Evolutions".

1) Gather ALL the material you've done since the day you began music.

2) Pick the BEST material going from DAY 1 to PRESENT day. Don't worry about the genres. You evolved over the years musically, and that includes genre changes. You can include instrumentals AND full complete songs w/ vocals.

3) Once you've picked the songs you want on the CD/digital format, order them from the past to the present. This will show the step ladder up showing your evolution through your own personal generation (very young Mike to young mike to the present day mike).

4) Design how you want the album cover to look. I'm sure you can come up with some really cool ideas. Once suggestion: have a baby mike crawling who morphs into kid mike who morphs into teenage mike and so on....

5) Take pre-orders and release it digitally. When you've got enough pre-orders to make a physical CD release relevant, then print the suckers.

6) Release the CD through CD BABY (you get the whole digital release package through them as well I believe).

7) Sit back and relax a bit. Your hard work will hopefully pay off.

Those are just some of my ideas of what I think you could do. At the end of the day, whatever you do decide to do will be cool. Just let me know when you've got everything done, I'd be happy to make a purchase.

Gregory Watton

Mike,
I've beenm using kunaki.com to manage "micro" runs of 4 CD's at a time. They are great for one up drop-ship retail orders and for ordering 4 units at a time to re-supply my CD Baby stock as needed.

The reason 4 is the "magic" number is because that's the best deal on shipping via USPS (U.S. Postal Service) to yourself or CD Baby. If you order 5 or more they will be sent with UPS which costs more, so it increases the cost per CD.

So for micro-size runs, you might as well use the Kunaki.com which has the best pricing for low-volume production runs and leaves you in full control of the CD graphics layout and design. They'll even send you the first CD for free so you can check and approve the quality.

They'll also drop-ship any retail orders you have directly to your customers. This saves money compared to having them ship first to you, and then you have to re-ship again to your customer, so direct can be a quick & cost effective way to go!

If you're going to produce 100's of CDs or more, you'll probably be better off with Disc Makers, and maybe let them do your artwork, etc.

Wishing you the best on your first CD project!
Michael

I am looking at my first online cd (at most likely songcast).
I work with printers and copying to press and dress, but do not feel the publishing or cost of a UPC seal would justify a physical cd. As you know, places like cd baby already have some type of UPC seal.
But that is not something of a major distribution.

But I have worked 4 years toward honing that cd I am working on, and the dissuasion of wondering if I would be better off with what I started doing other than my artistic desires

But I had that artistic plan and have those recordings that I will stand on.
Whether that is found to be acceptable or not.

I do not want to do anything outside of an intemmediate level.
I do not want to be a work for hire musician or assemble in a genre.
I need those songs I am currently working on before I can even think of going there
I will probably look back at these years from now as my baby steps to something more.

But I wish you the best and appreciate your honest assessments.
And you tell it like it is and do not try to hustle anyone.

I would like to pick up your cd when it comes out.

Hey Mike,

Where do I sign up? Just DO IT, Dude. Life won't wait. We're not getting any younger either. I want an autographed Caro CD before I start collecting my social security and have to choose between music and medication!

Ricki