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#694223 - 02/20/09 07:28 AM SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 177
Split Level Offline
Serious Contributor
Split Level  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 177
Nashville and U.K.
“SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICIANS / WHO / GIG”


It would be a great way of meeting people who qualify with all of the above, with respect to those writers that do not perform, some of us who do , would like to here the views and experiences of those that
Gig either frequently or part time , on a personal level I have much more in common, with musician/singer/ writers, who know what it’s like to perform live, you don’t need to be the best around, no matter how humble or even successful you may be or even have been at any of the above , it would be great to be able to listen to or collaborate with people who write songs with similar experiences to each other.

If any of these people have been Published and Recorded, that’s a bonus , but not something that is needed to qualify, however they must play an instrument that they can use to compose their melody’s and underpinning harmony’s with, either partially (In Collaboration) or completely (Solo)

Most Web Site Forums include non performing writers, That’s okay but a site that can cater for us or even have say a “Gig and Writers Corner”. Would be a welcome addition to any forward looking site.


Myself and several other writers have got together and are eager to exchange views, and even collaborate with others who come from similar performing / writing backgrounds, consequently we are placing them on all the sites known to us, to seek replies from others interested in Commenting and Writing from a similar background,
to each other. We may even consider a new web site, that caters just for us.

I represent a team of people who are very interested in all the above

Let us know if you are interested as well.


Split.


Have been working at E.M.I. Hayes U.K. in many departments starting as Tea Boy and worked through to A and R, New Artist Management,
Co Writing , with Boy Bands, and some solo acts
I have always played in bands,

SPLIT LEVEL
psuedonymn of course to many thieves and robbers on the web these days
#694260 - 02/20/09 11:41 AM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Split Level]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
BIG JIM MERRILEES  Offline

Top 20 Poster

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
We do all that already....... HERE.

Many collabs and cowrite partnerships have been formed HERE involving different combinations of performing and non performing writers.....

I guess you have not really thought this one through.

#694480 - 02/21/09 01:16 AM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
BIG JIM MERRILEES  Offline

Top 20 Poster

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
On the plus side if you and other like-minded people want to start off a site to hang out on....great idea.

#694493 - 02/21/09 04:41 AM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,401
Hummingbird Offline
Hummingbird  Offline

Top 100 Poster

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,401
Victoria, B.C. Canada
hmmm..... there are musicians, singers, songwriters, producers and other veterans of the music industry... with expertise & performance experience, with signed deals and without... ahem... right here on this board... so I'm not sure what you are asking.


Vikki Flawith: Songwriter/Composer, Singer/Voice Teacher

12Feb10- *NEW BLOG: "BE YOUR OWN GURU ;)"

MY STORY & MY MUSIC: http://www.vikkiflawith.com
Be a FAN: http://www.reverbnation.com/vikkiflawith
#694513 - 02/21/09 08:26 AM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Hummingbird]  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 177
Split Level Offline
Serious Contributor
Split Level  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 177
Nashville and U.K.
Hi Jim,

Usual slow witted come back from you, have you ever written an original Metaphor Jim? or composed your own Chord Bass Inversions, Do you understand scales and modes. ?
Have you ever written a title to a song, that could pull the reader in , a title with impact. A title so good that the song writes itself.? I think not because, you dont seem to understand what a Great song needs, having read most of your posts.

Hi Vicki ,

Most of those you refer to post very infrequently, in fact some of us do collaborate, we just feel it would be a great idea
for some of us to give the novices a miss, endless question on copyright , from people with no knowledge of format and modern writing can get a bit irritating, for some of us.






Have been working at E.M.I. Hayes U.K. in many departments starting as Tea Boy and worked through to A and R, New Artist Management,
Co Writing , with Boy Bands, and some solo acts
I have always played in bands,

SPLIT LEVEL
psuedonymn of course to many thieves and robbers on the web these days
#694514 - 02/21/09 09:07 AM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Split Level]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
BIG JIM MERRILEES  Offline

Top 20 Poster

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
Originally Posted by Split Level
Hi Jim,

Usual slow witted come back from you, have you ever written an original Metaphor Jim? or composed your own Chord Bass Inversions, Do you understand scales and modes. ?
Have you ever written a title to a song, that could pull the reader in , a title with impact. A title so good that the song writes itself.? I think not because, you dont seem to understand what a Great song needs, having read most of your posts.

Hi Vicki ,

Most of those you refer to post very infrequently, in fact some of us do collaborate, we just feel it would be a great idea
for some of us to give the novices a miss, endless question on copyright , from people with no knowledge of format and modern writing can get a bit irritating, for some of us.






Why don't you show us what you can do?.....I have asked you on several occasions to PROVE yourself....am still waiting.
It is easy to take pot shots whilst hiding in the background.
Shows cowardice and spitefulness.....I still remember your football song. Nuff said.

#694635 - 02/21/09 05:49 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,363
Bob Cushing Offline
Bob Cushing  Offline

Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,363
cincinnati oh usa
www.bobcushing.com Nuff said! {LOL}


bc
#694749 - 02/22/09 01:01 AM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Hummingbird]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
BIG JIM MERRILEES  Offline

Top 20 Poster

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
Hi Vikki this guy comes on here from time to time taking pot shots at myself and others here....He claims to be a big shot in the music industry....does nothing to prove it other than insult us. He will not even give a real name. I have asked him to post something...a song.... a link....anything..to prove himself and show us how good HE is especially when he considers most JPFs as inferiors.....
We will never know who he is or why he does it because I bet like all trolls he does not like it when his bluff has been called.....

TROLLS ARE SUCH A PEST.

I will stop feeding him...

#695232 - 02/23/09 02:43 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,558
Mark Kaufman Offline
Mark Kaufman  Offline

Top 40 Poster

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,558
Minneapolis
Split, you're suggesting a place that does exactly what this place does. The only difference would be to exclude amateur writers.

#695965 - 02/25/09 12:22 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
BIG JIM MERRILEES  Offline

Top 20 Poster

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
Bump! Calling split level's bluff...... AGAIN

I am bumping this in the hope that Split Level finally responds to yet another request for him to back up his drive by insults...... If he does not reply then I hope he takes no further part in this forum and keeps his insults and purile thoughts and ideas to himself.

#695972 - 02/25/09 12:44 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,505
Moker Jarrett Offline
Top 100 Poster
Moker Jarrett  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,505
jacksonville, fl
Split, i write, i gig, i record, i sing, i play instruments, i seem to remember a feud with Jim and You from awhile back...why all the negative energy? Using Brians public boards to invite people to a new site you are starting is unethical. Go listen to writers on the mp3 board and invite them somewhere in a PM would have been how I handled something like you are proposing , or I would have approached Brian about setting up a forum which you could actually invest some of your time to help moderate. You are probably a wonderful musician and writer(i've never heard your stuff) I have heard plenty of Jim's and he's a damn good singer, it's how he's made his living for years...would welcome the chance to hear some of yours...i post it all, from crappy worktapes to radio ready compositions so if you care to hear my work just plug my name in your browser...the basic idea you have is a good one, the way you are trying to go about accomplishing it shows how naive you are about ethics...no disrespect meant,just stating the facts...be well...moker

#695986 - 02/25/09 01:07 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 10,240
Kaley Willow Offline
Kaley Willow  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 10,240
PA
Peter,

I think you are a fine writer....but some times, I just don't get where you're coming from.

I may be calling the kettle black or whatever that phrase is, as....Yes, Kaley is a pseudonym.....I think most folks know this...But you really have done some harm I think. Respectfully...I'm saying this...because of the various pseudonyms and attitude.

Why not just join us instead of appearing to be above us....

I really enjoyed and learned (i hope smile ) from the old Peter who came in here among us...was one of us...and presented his beautiful Seville song...and more.

I don't understand. I do think though that if you'd come back
as the person you are....and wipe the slate clean....and maybe come down from that loft, (and I honestly don't think you mean to do that either.....)you could gain back the respect and find what you're looking for and more.

I very much liked and respected the old Peter.

Very best to you,
Kaley

#696781 - 02/27/09 10:02 AM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Kaley Willow]  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,541
Michele Howlett Offline
Top 100 Poster
Michele Howlett  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,541
Hunter Valley NSW Australia
Golly gosh, I'm a survivor of child abuse and more, the pain in my life that I personally experienced I'm lucky to be here, to read this makes me sad, because I don't understand it, we all need to care and support each other.

JPF has given me so much, that I get emotional, because you all here just touched my heart, and have supported me all the way, that it breaks me to read this.

When I first joined JPF, at one time I nearly didn't come back, as my songwriting brought up painful things for me and it started to send me backwards mentally, but hey, Mike Caro, Jim, so many others here picked me up and kept me going and look what I have achieved, and how much I have grown personally you could never imagine.

I'm 46 years old in May, and I'm just learning to play a keyboard, I don't know how to read music at all, I don't know how to play a guitar, I'm learning with computers, I just got through in education, does it matter, does it mean I could never write a great song, or achieve in my life, Nah, singing and songwriting has been the biggest gift in my life and it has given me,

Strength
Friends from all over the world
Support
Caring about myself again
Laughter
Happiness
Tears
I'm learning to write
Helping me with my spelling
I'm learning to read music
I'm learning to sing
I'm writing songs and recording them


Just talking to one of my friends here, and she has a tumor behind her eye, worrying about here operation, a good friend of mine has bone cancer, golly gosh, to witness the fires here and the damage, lives lost, wild life lost, you just never know. Every day you see devastation on the news all around you and the world, that I now stop and think.

Every day I live life, I'm going to enjoy it, because every day I live it, is another day I lose in it.

I understand that we have difference of opinions, I can accept that, but gosh, now I'm sad. frown

Michele




Last edited by Michele Bolton; 02/27/09 10:04 AM.
#696947 - 02/27/09 07:30 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Michele Howlett]  
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 16
Tom Chiappisi Offline
Casual Observer
Tom Chiappisi  Offline
Casual Observer

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 16
NH USA
Yeah, I agree with you Michelle. I'm a newbie here, and perhaps my opinion doesn't carry much weight, but I was saddened at the negative tone early on in this thread.

Technology brings change, purists would like their art to be pure.
Horses replaced by automobiles, Sailing ships replaced by steamships, hand made shoes and garments replaced by sewing machine made, electronics on acoustic guitars, Moog Synthesizers, Digital Graphics, Photoshop, Computer generated melodies, all these eventually became mainstream to the dismay of the purists and the artists staying true to their art form. I personally like my acoustic instruments, my oil paints, brushes and canvas....

But it is always my hope that civility, open minds and kind hearts will prevail, It does seem that door is opening here.

Tom

#697191 - 02/28/09 01:11 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Tom Chiappisi]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
BIG JIM MERRILEES  Offline

Top 20 Poster

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
Hi Tom I do not think we have met....Welcome to the boards....I am sure you will have a great time and meet lots of great people.
I apologise for the negativity earlier in this thread....I am not a negative person but I do speak my mind....sadly from time to time things NEED said and people have to be put in their place when they step out of line....This was one of those times. There is a lot of history here with certain parties and I felt enough was enough things had to be nipped in the bud.

You will find that most of the contributors here are friendly, helpful and positive.....we respect all contributors. This was just one isolated incident I hope it has not put you off.

Look forward to talking with you some more.


JIM

#697311 - 02/28/09 08:25 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 16
Tom Chiappisi Offline
Casual Observer
Tom Chiappisi  Offline
Casual Observer

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 16
NH USA
Thanks Jim,
I am enjoying myself here, also learning a lot, and meeting some really nice folks
Tom

#697489 - 03/01/09 01:59 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Tom Chiappisi]  
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 829
Nadia Offline
Top 500 Poster
Nadia  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 829
UK
I agree, it's a very interesting read.

Nadia
http://www.myspace.com/nadiacripps


Nadia
#697492 - 03/01/09 02:04 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Tom Chiappisi]  
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 829
Nadia Offline
Top 500 Poster
Nadia  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 829
UK
I agree, it's a very interesting read. I went the other day to one of my local pubs and I asked them whether I could have a slot for gigging. The manager replied that he charges £55 per hour and I must guarantee at least 250 people coming. Is this a usual practice? I can't guarantee this number. I just had to leave the place and start thinking what is possible in my situation when not many people know my music. I thought gigging would be the way forward but people already have to know me before I gig it seems.

Nadia
from UK
http://www.myspace.com/nadiacripps


Nadia
#697496 - 03/01/09 02:30 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Nadia]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,100
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 50 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,100
Nashville, Tn.
Hi,

MAB here with a little thought. This practice got really kind of started in New York and LA in the 80's when Karaoke started taking over a lot of live music venues. Club owners had so many acts trying to play, it got to where the crowds were so light on any one, they started making them guarentee an amount of money to play.That meant bring in the crowd. And to be honest, that has always been the same way in the business.

In clubs like that you have to sell so many tickets and if you don't do it, it is considered that you don't have the fan base.
There are things about clubs that most musicians never look at.

First of all, the money they make often is going right back out. Salaries, insurance, constantly rising electrical, water and other costs, rental, equipment, food, drinks, health department regulations, fire department codes, keeping all the aspects of a business, going. Then there is the Incredible thing now of legal issues. Most clubs usually have five or six pending lawsuits against them by someone who got drunk, fell down in the bathroom, stood up on a chair or table, fell on their ass, or got a DUI going home and sued the club. all part of the entitilement, blame somebody else, sue somebody for what you did to yourself, generation we live in.

Then when you have to have cash on hand to pay for your alcohol, and food, and some guarantees to the bands who are going to bring in big crowds to make the bills, it can be a really tight thing. Throw in the incredible competition, and you see why most clubs, pups and bars, either quit music or close completely. Karaoke is interactive with the audiences, takes almost no money, and everybody will do it when they get drunk enough.No band, no attitudes, no no shows, don't have to tell the Karaoke machine to get off break, stop hitting on the waitresses, and doing drugs in the wash rooms.

A way you need to look at it is to try and start playing first on the free open mics and contests or early shows. Corall all your friends and get them to show up. If you can have a few good showings (usually three or four) you will have a better bargaining position to ask for a decent regular night. If they don't have one, offer to start one. Find some people who will show up, play a few songs and bring some friends in to eat and drink. If you show you can bring in a few hours of entertainment you will get better nights. It is all about what you can bring to their bottom line. And you build your own crowd along the way.
In Nashville we have about 35 clubs that feature writers nights on some kinds. These range from the Bluebird, which is like the West End, or Broadway, and the BIG club everyone wants to be. To smaller bars, major clubs, etc. It is not so much that you have to pay to play is that you have to guarantee people coming in. There is a cover charge, usually about $5.00. And you pay some of that toward a door man and sound guy. That is essentially for renting the club.
So the effect is the same. If you don't bring people in, you don't get the good bookings. It takes a while, sometimes years to work your way up. Because there are about 5000 people trying to get in the same slots.

But you have always got to look at the "other side of the desk" and figure out what is going to motivate the club to have you. They are there to provide a venue and make money. The people that make them money get the best slots. The people that don't, don't get booked back, or in some places, get booked in the first place.

Everything about the music business, writing songs, promoting material, finding publishers, record companies, getting booked, promoting a live career or doing Internet promotion, is about proving yourself to the public in a manner that makes them want your material and your presence. And it is VERY hard and sometimes pretty expensive. You have to be in it for the long haul, develop marketable product or create your own niche and do it constantly. Most people have the dream, but not the drive. And the drive is what is essential.

MAB

#697509 - 03/01/09 03:29 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
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Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
Well I have a simple rule..... They pay me to play. The day they want ME to pay is the day I hang up my mic...
Once we played a pub and were paid a set fee....we actually played for less than we normally do as it was a smallish pub and the manager pleaded poverty. His pub was normally occupied by a handful of people. That night there were over two hundred people came and went and he charged a £5 per head entrance fee. He made over £1000 plus the profit on the drink he sold. He refused to pay us any more than the agreed sum despite the fact that virtually 100% of the audience came to see US play. The pub is now shut down because nobody would play there they now play at the pub along the road and his pub could not exist on the handful of regulars. Now if he had just not been so greedy he would have still been in business packing them in.
My experience of publicans and club bookers is that most have not got a clue how to run a business...most are greedy....most are very stupid. There are a few who respect musicians and entertainers but most just see it as a necessary evil or extra way of getting bums on seats. They want to pay the bare minimum for the maximum return...The only way to beat them is for bands to stick together and NOT try to undercut...rely on getting booked because you are the band in demand....do not sell yourself short.

Re the guy who charges £55 per hour and expects a minimum of 250....assuming the band get the profit from all tickets sold that is not a bad deal. £165 for 3 hours and 250 or more tickets at say £5 minimum...a profit of over £1000 for the band....not many pubs hold in excess of 250 people....Where is this place?
I might be interested.

#697511 - 03/01/09 03:31 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Nadia]  
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Colin Ward Offline
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Originally Posted by musiccomposer
The manager replied that he charges £55 per hour and I must guarantee at least 250 people coming. Is this a usual practice? I can't guarantee this number. I just had to leave the place and start thinking what is possible in my situation when not many people know my music. I thought gigging would be the way forward but people already have to know me before I gig it seems.

Nadia
from UK
http://www.myspace.com/nadiacripps


Are you saying he wanted you to pay the club 55 pounds per hour as well as guarantee 250 people?


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


#697539 - 03/01/09 04:48 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Colin Ward]  
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Nadia Offline
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Thank you everybody for your replies. I can see how difficult everything is in music business. you see, I mostly performed at schools, local churches and local literary festival party (all either charity concerts or free concerts) so I don't have any experience really of how it goes. I'd rather compose to be honest but I feel the need to get my music out there so that other people could hear it and now I have some wonderful singers who like my songs and happy to sing them with my piano accompaniment. Well, I thought if I play and they sing we could organize some gigs and concerts but so far it's hard to arrange and because neither of my songs has ever been published or performed professionally (Imean in concerts where public is paying for the tickets, not the quality of the performers I had which was very good indeed), I'm not in a position to start renting halls which often are 400 and above. As for the guy in the pub, yes, I needed to pay and to guarantee at least 250 people to come. I'm new hear and I don't know whether it's a good idea to publicise the pub's location though but I promise to you it's true. Perhaps if there is a facility hear to send me a private message I could let you know more but I just don't feel I have the right to openly print out the location. I hope it's okay with you, folks. Oh, and one other thing, if I do get lucky and find some paid locations, do I need to be a member of ASCAP or any other organisation? Sorry, I feel really inexperienced.

Nadia
from UK
http://www.myspace.com/nadiacripps


Nadia
#697547 - 03/01/09 05:08 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Nadia]  
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BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
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Hi Nadia I am sorry but I was being sarcastic....nobody should rip musicians off. No pub has the right to charge people to perform....They make money from selling booze and possibly entrance fees..If they cannot fill a hall then that is their prob. This guy sounds lazy and wants others to run his business for him. If he was any good he would know who pulls crowds and book them to play his gigs..it is not rocket science.

Re PMs it is easy to send a private message....just click on the name of the person you want to send a PM to (printed in blue on each post) then click on send PM. Compose your message in the box and hit send.
If you receive a PM or a reply you will be notified by email and a flag flashes at the top of the screen next to "my stuff" just click on it and you will see all the messages. To reply just fill in the reply box and send.

#697551 - 03/01/09 05:15 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Nadia]  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
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If you can pull a crowd, sometimes renting a place is the way to go. A dance band I played with rented a wedding hall to throw a dance for five years. We made more money, overall, than we would have if we were getting paid normal dance club fees. Band politics that spilled into the crowd finally ended the gig.

However, an entertainment club, not a rental hall, is another story. It used to be, an entertainment club that didn't hire a regular band, would pay premium entertainment on the weeekends, up and comers during the week, and then have an open stage on a Monday or Sunday to develop talent. But the musicians won't organize. Most musicians will cut each others throats to play for free in an empty club. Too many will offer to play for less than whoever is currently at the club. That's going the wrong way, gang. And mention the union to any of them and you get, "AAAARGH, the UNION! They never do anything for anybody. All they ever did was give me trouble. etc. etc." If all the clubs had to pay union scale and then have an amateur night (what they used to call open stages) we'd be in better shape. But the musicians will not organize. They'd rather cut each others throats and pay to play.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#697565 - 03/01/09 05:59 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
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Nadia Offline
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Nadia  Offline
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Thank you for sharing your experience with me, I appreciate it a lot. Well, some musicians can be difficult but most I came across are hard working and dedicated. The problem is that everybody is so busy and many people have to work elsewhere to earn wages for renting their accommodation, the rehearsals are hard to organize. May be I should just concentrate on composing. Even this is not so easy as how many cakes can one make if no one is eating them? Well, my family, my friends, my students like my music but to organize something bigger appears to be having to face obstacles. I wouldn't call myself lazy. I work hard and give everything to everything I'm doing - being a mum, a wife, a piano teacher, a composer, a songwriter - I just believe in what I do I should do well. While preparing my students for exams I have a great opportunity to play different kind of music and I play my compositions among other pieces without announcing it's my music. I often see a genuine interest to my songs and many students have asked me if they could learn my pieces when I answered their questions who was that music by. That gives me some hope that my music is worth trying to promote but so far all I have is thank you but no, thank you letters from the publishers. I went to some places to ask whether anyone would be interested in concerts/gigs and so far people immediately think of money and guaranteed amount of the audience and I have to say I can't guarantee it as my friends are busy people and they might come but they might not be able to and I can't expect them to leave everything and go to my gigs. I don't think I can ask my students to attend as I feel I'll be putting them under pressure and it's not fair on them. I just thought if the pubs have their clients and the clients know that on certain nights there are gigs (these were the pubs i was asking for the possibility to gig in), they could let me do some of their standard gigs numbers, I could gig 6 to 12 songs and I wouldn't have to pay, it would be nice to get paid as it's a lot of effort to organize all the rehearsals and my singers who come all the way to my house for the rehearsal and put so much effort in learning new songs, should be rewarded as well. Am I wrong to think that we should be paid, not the other way round? Why when I need a plumber to come they charge me £60 per hour and the musicians are expected to play for free or even pay for the privilege to perform?
Nadia
http://www.myspace.com/nadiacripps


Nadia
#697624 - 03/01/09 08:48 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Nadia]  
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Nadia Offline
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Oh dear. I feel I've scared everyone off. Sorry.


Nadia
#697642 - 03/01/09 09:39 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Nadia]  
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Colin Ward Offline
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Saint Petersburg. FL
Nadia,

The problem here in the US anyway, is that the supply of musicians outstrips the demand by a factor of several times. Otherwise the pub owner would have to pay the musicians just as he pays the waitress or bartender. So I would ask you to consider what is in it for you? Do you receive a cut of the door or are you expected to make money from CD sales and such? Based on what I know, I would start looking elsewhere.

You will find that there is no demand for songwriters either. there are thousands of songwriters who are trying to score the next big hit. Many of them are capable of writing it, but they don't have the connections to get it heard.


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


#697646 - 03/01/09 09:55 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Colin Ward]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Marc Barnette  Offline
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Nashville, Tn.
Nadia,

The difference is supply and demand. And the essentials verses luxaries. If you don't play, there are going to be hundreds of musicians, writers, artists, etc. who will. You will not be missed. Music is not food,clothing, shelter etc. It is nice to have but there is no end to it. and many will do it for free or much less than you can do it for.
And if you don't hire a plumber, things are going to get very stinky and then if you don't take care of it, it can be a health issue, which could be life and death. So that is essential.
What you are finding out is what every one has to find out sooner or later. There are no guarantees and you are a commodity. That means you have to find a price you can live with and try to get people to pay you what you feel you are worth. And that means working up to it. You start out making nothing because that is what every one who has ever done music since the beginning of time has had to do, and when you build a demand for what you do, you get paid.
These are rules that have been in place since the beginning of time. As I mentioned before, the pub or club owner always have a lot more at stake and have to deal with a lot more than the musician. The musican has to show up, do their job well and bring people in. The pub owner has to bring people in, pay employees, do it day in and day out, compete with his neighbors and in this day and age fight lawsuits all the time. If you can bring in money to his bottom line and prove it to them, you will be paid accordingly. If not, there are always a non-ending supply of people who will take your place and actually undercut what you do to get there. It is supply and demand and survival of the fittest.

MAB

#697650 - 03/01/09 10:07 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Nadia,

One other thing. ASCAP, and publishers have nothing to do with live performances. They are concerned with exploitation of published works. That is recordings and radio airplay. The two have nothing to do with one another outside of airplay helping bring people to your live shows.
I want you to go back and look at your own post. You say you can't guarantee that your friends would show up because they are busy and your students would not come because you think they would feel pressured.So who would be coming to see you? and if you can't guarantee anybody to come see you, who is paying the bills to keep the club open, to buy the drinks, to buy the food? Where is that money coming from?
If they put you in and you draw no one, are you willing to dig into your pocket to pay the salaries of the waitresses, bartenders, cooks, etc? Can you cover the drinks that are not sold? Can you pay for the insurance on the building, liability insurance, wear and tear on the equipment, rent on the building, advertising on radio, papers, Internet costs?
Because those bills have to be paid whether anyone shows up or not. I don't know if I have played as long as Big jim has and we are definately in different areas, but I have been doing this for about thirty years and for a brief time was a part owner in a club, something I would NEVER do again. The bills and legal problems are non-ending, the ulcers and headaches never cease.
So as you are wondering where you can get booked and who will have you, I think you have to figure out what you can bring to someone else's game. At the end of the day that is what we are involved in. This is the business of music, not the business of friends. I know that sounds very cruel, but it is simply the way it has always been.

MAB

#697654 - 03/01/09 10:10 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
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Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
I am sure that the comments from the USA are accurate but in the UK things are slightly better....We do not have the same glut of good musicians and acts....We are more organised tending not to see each other as competiton so much.....Most clubs and pubs expect to pay good wages for good bands and acts. Most acts use an agent. There is a sort of pecking order but bands tend not to cut each others throats the same way as in the states. There tends to be a going rate that is well accepted..That said it is tough for new acts to get a start.

#697690 - 03/01/09 11:32 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Like I said, we work in different areas. I am a little puzzled however, because we sure get a lot of people from the UK coming here as well as those I have met online who constantly seem to talk about the lack of live gigs, the absence of a local music community, and the reason they are coming here is because they can't find anything there.
Now that could be in some certain regional situation,and I am sure I am seeing a very small percentage, but what Nadia seems to be describing with a club owner telling her he charges 55 pounds and expects 250 people, sure sounds like he doesn't have much trouble finding people to play in his club.
But again, we are never going to know, not having to be where she is. but I would surmise by the amount of people involved in everything musical and artistic the world over, there is quite a bit of competitionfor every slot available.

MAB

#697776 - 03/02/09 05:13 AM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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Nadia Offline
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Nadia  Offline
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Thank you so much for your posts. I think finding the agent is the answer although it seems to me that it's not an easy option. Well, nothing is easy, right? I'll keep you posted whether I managed to find the opportunity to gig. Thank you again.
Nadia
http://www.myspace.com/nadiacripps


Nadia
#697811 - 03/02/09 10:38 AM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Nadia]  
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BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
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Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
Originally Posted by musiccomposer
Hi Big Jim. Thank you for your reply. i was thinking may be it's just my experience not getting anywhere with any of songwriting contests (I've tried John Lennon last year and great American Songwriting Contest some time ago as well). Oh well, may be I have to grow up and do something better. Are you happy with soundclick, Jim? I've put my music on MySpace and I had some positive replies from some people but so far nothing big really happened. I wonder what is the best route if it exists. My main genres are theatre/stage.
Nadia

http://www.myspace.com/nadiacripps


Hi Nadia. Most of us here use Soundclick just to post stuff so that others here can have a listen or maybe do a critique...as far as getting noticed or achieveing anything other than that I see little or no benefit. You must understand that there are many sites with many thousands of people posting songs. It is almost impossible to get attention or rely on people trawling through these places looking for the next hit or next hit writer. It simply does not happen. Imagine having your name in a phone book...people only look through the book for a specific person they know and want to find they do not go through all the pages looking for an interesting random name. You put your name in the book so people who already know you can find you ...it is up to you to advertise and tell people who you are..... where you are....and what you do. No amount of posting on various sites will do that...you have to meet people...market yourself.....network...find the right people to talk to...perform live...build a fan base...get noticed.
You have to look for people to sell to...they as a rule do not come looking for you.

#697910 - 03/02/09 04:08 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Nadia Offline
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Yes, I see. Well, that's why I put my music on MySpace. It took me years to decide to put my music on the net and at first I only put 30 seconds, later I increased to a minute and now I just uploaded the whole songs. I have some nice replies from people I never told about my site so people do obviously listen to other songs and they are kind enough to let me know what they think of my music. I believe in what I'm writing and I only put songs on which I like myself. I did find some fantastic singers but I don't have any connections with people who make decisions so all I can do is try to put my music on different sites and I don't know many who are really good. I think soundclick looks good so I might try to put some of my compositions. it's hard to find the right way and for years I feel I'm knocking into the locked doors. I'm very glad I've found your site. I find people are so sympathetic and understanding. Thank you everybody so much for your posts.
Nadia
http://www.myspace.com/nadiacripps


Nadia
#697924 - 03/02/09 04:57 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Nadia]  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
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Nashville Tennessee
Nadia,

I listened to your songs on MySpace. Very well written, beautiful music.

Yes, your classical influence, a mix of German lieder and opera, is very compelling but will make it hard for you to find venues. The so called "classical" performing world is even tougher to break into than pop.

As to the recordings, on your synth/classical pieces, the expression gets lost. Your touch on the the live recordings is exquisite, but I think, on the others, you may be working with keyboard synthesizer and samplers that don't give you enough depth of dynamic expression, so some of those pieces have a mechanical sound to them.

Also, the audio recording of vocal and piano could have more clarity and transparency to them. They have a little too much live recorded "room" sound to them. They would benefit from more of a studio sound.

Mostly you are held back by technical stuff, not by composition or performance.

If you want to make the vocals more "pop" accessible, especially on How Do I Fly, which I find has the most modern sound of your work with a jazz/Debussey touch, you might record the piano first, then record the vocal with a close mic technique. Use a large diaphragm microphone, I would imagine a Rode NT2 would suit your voice in a slightly less expensive, yet pro quality mic. Then think of your delivery not as the way you would sing to a room without a microphone, but the way you might sing holding a baby or directly in someone's ear. In doing that, you could add a little more sensuality, as someone like Diane Kraal might.

Anyway, these are just some ideas. Lovely writing and performing.

With good, so called "broadcast quality" recordings, I don't see why you couldn't get some synch license placement for tv or movies with this work.



You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#697926 - 03/02/09 04:59 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Tom Chiappisi]  
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John Marnie Offline
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John Marnie  Offline
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Barrington, NJ (US)
I like the way Tom C. just took the negativity from the beginning of this post and made a positive out of it. Good work Tom. I always wanted to live on a farm. This N.E. ATTITUDE would be a lot rosier, I think. And what a great place to jam!



John Marnie: Drummer and singer in
"Too Little Time" Band:
http://www.TooLittleTime.net
#697940 - 03/02/09 05:38 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Marc Barnette]  
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John Marnie Offline
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Barrington, NJ (US)
Yea Marc, Karaoke. For the NE., in the 70's, the ruination of live, mainly cover bands, like the one I was in, was none other than disco. What a crummy sentence that was! Disco led to DJ's replacing most of live music and then the Gen X's small crowds finished it off.
It was great in the early 70's, no DJS, no Karaoke, just sardine packed clubs everywhere you went. Great time to be young on the prowl! Aooooooooo!

So, to solve the problem, make more babies! smile I'm almost ready for soilent green anyway.


John Marnie: Drummer and singer in
"Too Little Time" Band:
http://www.TooLittleTime.net
#697985 - 03/02/09 07:33 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: John Marnie]  
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Nadia Offline
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Thank you very much for your valuable comments, Mike. yes, you are right, I should think about rerecording my music.
Nadia
http://www.myspace.com/nadiacripps


Nadia
#699409 - 03/07/09 01:36 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: John Marnie]  
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Tom Chiappisi Offline
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NH USA
Thanks for the encouragement John! This is a great site and I love reading the posts, learning new things, sharing & hearing other peoples experiences. Especially when it involves things like gigging and performing.

Songwriting has always been something I do, but most of it is just impromptu silly stuff that I do in private. We gig a lot from May to Oct here. Primarily I'm a barn dance caller and I write dances. I also gig a lot with my wife as a duo, and with my band doing performances. I'm a Ham, so I tend to always be the one on the mic. I LOVE being on stage, and keeping it light & funny, being in front of a crowd is well within my comfort zone. I work with lots of other musicians and most of them are teachers, they all have taught me that lifting each other up is the best gift.

We have an open mic here at a friends barn on a monthly basis, it's primary objective is to be a place where musicians come to step out of their comfort zone, to try new things that they don't currently perform in public. For example I've been gigging and performing what I do well for almost 20 years, but I didn't sing in public. I was told it was my dad's fault because he made fun of my singing when I was 12 or 13. At least that's what the voice therapist said.. She said my voice is really not bad, it was just so tight when I tried to sing due to mental blockages... OK, all the Freudian / Post Jungian stuff aside... I learned to be loose (er) when singing through therapy. So this Barn open mic is great cause it's all musicians that come, and they are supportive and encouraging to each other (yeah, peace love & hippy values) But the bottom line is we ALL teach & learn and grow together. It's pretty cool cause it's a place where I can be in front of a crowd, sing and develop a skill I can use.

It's what I was hoping to find here, and what I like about this site. Let's face it, the critics are out there, the ones that have personal agendas or the critics that don't walk in our shoes, I ignore, the ones with constructive, heart felt suggestions, I listen to. It will be a while though before I post any of my ditty's, I'm slowly getting comfortable here ;-)

Wow I got on a roll ... sorry if it's a bit lengthy... :-)
Tom

#699424 - 03/07/09 02:12 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Tom Chiappisi]  
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,403
Joe Wrabek Offline
Top 40 Poster
Joe Wrabek  Offline
Top 40 Poster

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,403
Garibaldi, OR USA
Tom, good to "see" you here. I agree about all the stuff that's been said about not being negative.

I myself will *not* under any conditions pay to play. I will play for free, if I can convince myself I'm getting something worthwhile out of it, even if it's just exposure. But if I'm being Your Entertainment, I'm providing something worthwhile, and I will quote the Bible at you: "The laborer is worth his hire." We can discuss how much I'm getting paid, but we're not going to discuss me paying you.

I'm aware of the limitations clubs operate under (I used to keep books for one), though I am inclined to be a little unforgiving. Fairest deal I've seen was the practice one bar had down in southern Oregon, when I lived there; they'd charge a cover, and split it with the band, the bar would sell food and drink, the band would sell CDs and merch. It meant the bar didn't lose on the deal, and if the band brought in a crowd, they both made money.

I am doing the same deal with the Big Concert at the Bay City (OR) Arts Center tonight. There will be a cover charge; band will get 60%, the Arts Center 40%, they'll sell refreshments, I'll sell CDs. We decided together how much the cover charge should be. Both I and they have publicized the c**p out of the event, and I hope (without really knowing) we pack the place. So we'll see how it works.

Joe

#699435 - 03/07/09 02:59 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Joe Wrabek]  
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,478
Kevin Edward Rose Offline
Top 200 Poster
Kevin Edward Rose  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,478
Richmond, IN U.S.A.
Joe, I hope you don't mind a plug, but here goes:

Joe Wrabek has been putting out a very informative and entertaining blog, in which he outlines his on-going projects and ideas. Because of my work schedule, I haven't had the opportunity to perform for quite a while, so I have been living vicariously through Joe's blog. Be sure to check it out! http://nakedspacehamsters.blogspot.com


Kevin Edward Rose
Celtic, Americana, whatever the folk.
Hailed by Performing Songwriter magazine as a "valued subscriber".
More music sold than Elvis and the Beatles combined!*
http://www.KevinEdwardRose.com
http://www.youtube.com/KevinEdwardRose
#699437 - 03/07/09 03:06 PM Re: SINGER / SONGWRITER / MUSICAINS / WHO GIG [Re: Kevin Edward Rose]  
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,403
Joe Wrabek Offline
Top 40 Poster
Joe Wrabek  Offline
Top 40 Poster

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,403
Garibaldi, OR USA
Hey, thanks, Kevin. No, I don't mind a bit.

Joe


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